View Full Version : British SAS and shotguns
Don't know if this incident has been embellished to any degree, but it's an impressive feat anyway. Didn't even know that the SAS used shotguns that much.
"One of the breachers immediately opened fire with a Benelli M4 shotgun. In short order, he reportedly killed three would-be bombers, according to dailystar.co.uk. “The terrorists were no more than a few feet away when the SAS team came face to face with them,” an unnamed source told dailystar.co.uk.
“One of the breach team opened fire with a shotgun and shot dead three before they could get a shot off,” the source continued. “Another two terrorists appeared from a building and he neutralized them as well. It was a case of bang, bang, bang, then bang, bang. It was over in seven seconds.
“Several other terrorists emerged from the building but immediately surrendered and began panicking as two of the bodies didn’t have heads – they thought they were about to be executed,” reported dailystar.co.uk."
https://www.tactical-life.com/firearm-news/british-sas-operative-terrorists-benelli-m4/
"began panicking as two of the bodies didn’t have heads"
Breaching rounds, explosive projectiles I have never heard of, or hyperbole?
Andy
Coal Dragger
03-19-23, 02:07
A 3” 00 12 gauge shell at close range will probably effectively blow a human skull into mush and red mist.
If he was using a M1S90/M2 it would have been over in 5 seconds.
Fastest shotty I've ever seen, especially in the hands of Tom Knapp. For "reasons" the USMC decided they needed a gas operated shotgun and it seems everyone else followed suit with the M4. And of course the SAS themselves are famous for going from zero to "f-ck up ALL your shit" in the blink of an eye.
"began panicking as two of the bodies didn’t have heads"
Breaching rounds, explosive projectiles I have never heard of, or hyperbole?
Andy
I've seen "after" pics of a 870 used at "inside the room" distance with standard 00 buck, it can happen.
Pro tip: When the police walk in on you with an 870 and "you" in their sight picture, don't try and outdraw them.
Admittedly, the other guys didn't have time to evaluate casualties and a bloody lump may as well be missing completely. Everybody wants to be a gangster 'till gangster sh!+ happens.
Andy
He obviously knew how to run his gun:)
Didn't we just have a thread about the use of shotguns today? I seem to recall lots of people poo-pooing shotguns, which is idiodic.
My brother in law was a Marine in Fallujah in 2006. He said their breachers would just use the Benelli during CQB and were very effective with it.
Ive seen several close range 12 gauge (buckshot or slug) headshots over the years. Every one of them was missing at least 3/4 of their head. To say their head wasnt missing would just be semantics.
Sort of lines up with what Clint Smith has to say about shotguns.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=l9nGB8cK1HM
I had a guy shot and killed right in front of my unmarked police car. He was shot with a 20 ga., slug and he did just like the cartoons. He stiffed up and over he went.
Too bad the dirt bag that shot him, got off since the "good" was holding a 22 rifle in his hands at the time of the shooting.
Shotguns are no joke, but I still would rather have a rifle due to more versatility.
John Wick approves:
https://i.imgur.com/dzuvwaKl.jpg
Averageman
03-19-23, 10:10
A guy back home found out his Wife was cheating on him, he hid in a closet with a twelve gauge and shot them in the act and after the deed he kept shooting.
I was told they were both cut in half and I believe it.
My understanding of how it's supposed to work might be off a bit, but I didn't think the door breacher was supposed to be the first through the door.
Shotguns certainly rattled the Germans enough in World War I that they filed a protest against their use.
Averageman
03-19-23, 11:10
Shotguns certainly rattled the Germans enough in World War I that they filed a protest against their use.
Yes, everyone burning each other down with every kind of poison gas you could think of and they were worried about some shotguns.
Pretty stupid
Shotgun wounds look gruesome. Even if they aren't fatal (like say birdshot) they look devastating. Psychological impact.
I've seen "after" pics of a 870 used at "inside the room" distance with standard 00 buck, it can happen.
Pro tip: When the police walk in on you with an 870 and "you" in their sight picture, don't try and outdraw them.
LOLOL.... Yep....
First surgical cric I did in the field was for a suicide gone wrong, tried to take his head off with a shotgun. Hell of a mess. Definitely the more gruesome trauma scenes, and I would throw IEDs/VBIEDs/explosives into that conversation.
First surgical cric I did in the field was for a suicide gone wrong, tried to take his head off with a shotgun. Hell of a mess. Definitely the more gruesome trauma scenes, and I would throw IEDs/VBIEDs/explosives into that conversation.
I'm an admitted Blood pussy. Can't even give blood without ralphing all over the nurse.... I don't know how ya'll do it. I'm getting the dry heaves thinking about some of the posts in this thread.
I'm an admitted Blood pussy. Can't even give blood without ralphing all over the nurse.... I don't know how ya'll do it. I'm getting the dry heaves thinking about some of the posts in this thread.
Nothing a few ride alongs with a crime scene unit to a few decomp scenes won't cure. :bad:
I remember the 1970's and 80's when shotguns used to be carried in many patrol cars. In those days I'm not sure if door breaching was even widely practiced?
Didn't we just have a thread about the use of shotguns today? I seem to recall lots of people poo-pooing shotguns, which is idiodic.
I don't like them for primary HD because of limited magazine capacities and their tendency to cause tremendous property damage when fired in a home. Suppression options are generally useless.
So kinda big, seriously loud, a little heavy and reloads can be a PITA. But if I was a breacher on some "ninja seal" group, I wouldn't waste time doing a weapon transition, I'd just continue to F things up with my Benelli. But not my first choice as a defensive weapon.
I remember the 1970's and 80's when shotguns used to be carried in many patrol cars. In those days I'm not sure if door breaching was even widely practiced?
Nope, in the days of Adam 12, cops kicked doors. 870s and S&W Model 28s seemed to be the name of the game.
First surgical cric I did in the field was for a suicide gone wrong, tried to take his head off with a shotgun. Hell of a mess. Definitely the more gruesome trauma scenes, and I would throw IEDs/VBIEDs/explosives into that conversation.
A few years back, a guy on our Florida forum put a shotgun under his chin, blew half of his face off and survived. I can't even imagine what it must be like to think "things are so bad, it's time to check out" and then add that level of disability to your complicated existence.
The Ithaca 37 had quite a storied history. From a book I have on the history of this gun:
"Early in 1981, Ithaca Gun and the Los Angeles Police Revolver and Athletic Club established preliminary specifications for a commemorative gun to celebrate the 200th anniversary of the city of Los Angeles. The gun was sold only to members of the Los Angeles police force, and had a unique serial number range to correspond to the badge number of the officer buying the gun. The records indicate that about 1,300 guns were made. Shipments began during August 1982. Special serial numbers begin with LAPD 0001".
Wonder how many of this run are still around?
Shotguns are not as load as a unsuppressed AR.
As far as capacity for home defense very few HD situations are protracted firefights. That being said having 15 rounds on a shotgun is quite easy and manageable.
Shotguns are not as load as a unsuppressed AR.
As far as capacity for home defense very few HD situations are protracted firefights. That being said having 15 rounds on a shotgun is quite easy and manageable.
Depending upon setup, shotguns can be much louder than an unsuppressed AR. I have fired both 18" 12 ga. shotguns and 16" M4s indoors and you are absolutely, 100% off base. Shotguns are punishing indoors, especially hallways where they have two close walls to bounce sound off of.
15 round drums in NO WAY make a shotgun easy and manageable. High capacity shotgun magazines are the most PITA mag change I can think of, I can change a belt faster. But more importantly, a suppressed AR is always quieter than a shotgun and a M4 with a 30 round magazine is much easier to manage than most shotguns, especially when it comes to mounting weapon lights, RDS and things of that nature.
Nobody has any idea how many rounds are gonna be needed for a HD situation. You might need only 1 round from your handgun, but if you have two people in your home who are willing to gunfight with you, you might be doing mag changes.
Huh? I can't hear you? I just finished playin my '66 Pro Reverb on about 4, so that shotgun would be like shooting an M4 Supressed right now.
The Ithaca 37 had quite a storied history. From a book I have on the history of this gun:
"Early in 1981, Ithaca Gun and the Los Angeles Police Revolver and Athletic Club established preliminary specifications for a commemorative gun to celebrate the 200th anniversary of the city of Los Angeles. The gun was sold only to members of the Los Angeles police force, and had a unique serial number range to correspond to the badge number of the officer buying the gun. The records indicate that about 1,300 guns were made. Shipments began during August 1982. Special serial numbers begin with LAPD 0001".
Wonder how many of this run are still around?
We had some Ithaca shotguns in the armory when I was on active duty. I like the Ithaca, but ours had a considerable amount of wear and tear on them. They were replaced by the M870 and I thought it was a fine weapon.
Many on this site will disagree, but the shotgun is my first choice for self-defense inside of 25 yards. It's a versatile tool and highly effective.
Bravo Zulu to the men who used the shotgun effectively to dispatch terrorists.
I agree that the SAS guy knew how to use his weapon, and got it done.
I don't think Prepare was thinking about some kind of drum magazine.
My HD shottys have 9 rounds in the gun and 13 attached to them on cards, for a total of of 22 available shells. I'll take 9 plus 13 00 BK over 30 rounds of 5.56 every day without hesitation.
ThirdWatcher
03-19-23, 22:26
Nope, in the days of Adam 12, cops kicked doors. 870s and S&W Model 28s seemed to be the name of the game.
S&W M-28 and Winchester M-12 Riot Gun were issued to me in the Academy. Still have my 28 and a M-12 that was issued to a classmate (now serving in Valhalla). That M-12 (made in 1959) is still beautiful, blued steel and walnut...
Depending upon setup, shotguns can be much louder than an unsuppressed AR. I have fired both 18" 12 ga. shotguns and 16" M4s indoors and you are absolutely, 100% off base. Shotguns are punishing indoors, especially hallways where they have two close walls to bounce sound off of.
15 round drums in NO WAY make a shotgun easy and manageable. High capacity shotgun magazines are the most PITA mag change I can think of, I can change a belt faster. But more importantly, a suppressed AR is always quieter than a shotgun and a M4 with a 30 round magazine is much easier to manage than most shotguns, especially when it comes to mounting weapon lights, RDS and things of that nature.
Nobody has any idea how many rounds are gonna be needed for a HD situation. You might need only 1 round from your handgun, but if you have two people in your home who are willing to gunfight with you, you might be doing mag changes.
No drums.
5 in the tube
5 on the shell card/side saddle
5 on the shell card on the stock
I'll take 9 plus 13 00 BK over 30 rounds of 5.56 every day without hesitation.
Not questioning the power of a 12 gauge, but why limit your 5.56 comparison to 30 rounds?
No drums.
5 in the tube
5 on the shell card/side saddle
5 on the shell card on the stock
Better setup, but still less than ideal.
Averageman
03-20-23, 15:50
Better setup, but still less than ideal.
I'm reminded of shooting IDPA with a guy who used a revolver and he did very, very well.
I dunno, you can work as hard as you would like to to use whatever weapon you choose. But if I'm shooting the locks and hinges off, I would hope someone with an AR would be at my shoulder when I kick in the door.
I don't really want to go all "John Wick" on a room full of Terrorists with a shotgun; at my age it would be simply tedious and make all you youngsters look bad.
I'm reminded of shooting IDPA with a guy who used a revolver and he did very, very well.
I dunno, you can work as hard as you would like to to use whatever weapon you choose. But if I'm shooting the locks and hinges off, I would hope someone with an AR would be at my shoulder when I kick in the door.
I don't really want to go all "John Wick" on a room full of Terrorists with a shotgun; at my age it would be simply tedious and make all you youngsters look bad.
So for starters, even with a wheel gun, Jerry will still kick all our butts. We should just call it the Rule of Jerry. And I've seen some guys who can reload a shotty almost as fast as Jerry can speed load a revolver. But I can't do it to a level I feel is effective enough to make me abandon an AR carbine that I can do more efficient mag changes on.
But if somebody wants to run a shotty for HD, I have almost no opinion. People should choose what they are most comfortable with. In most cases a shotgun will be less than ideal for all the reasons mentioned, but if I had to defend my home with my Benelli entry with it's 14" barrel and 5 + 1 magazine capacity, I'm not gonna be "OMG I'm gonna die." There are simply platforms that I'd rather have.
Johnny Rico
03-20-23, 16:41
There are simply platforms that I'd rather have.
Did you say have? I bet you already have them, and you actually meant to say use. ;)
Wouldn't surprise me if you keep your kitted 6960 as your go-to, with an FN 249 ready to rock in your safe room in case things get serious.
Not questioning the power of a 12 gauge, but why limit your 5.56 comparison to 30 rounds?
If I were to pick up the primary HD AR, I have ~30 rounds with which to work. If I pick up the primary HD M4, I have 22 rounds with which to work.
Sure, I could stuff another 30 round mag in a pocket. I could also put the 25 round bandolier (that's about 3 feet from the 12 gauge) filled with 00 BK and a few slugs over my shoulder.
Somewhere across this land, somebody's HD weapon is grandpa's old double barrel.
Did you say have? I bet you already have them, and you actually meant to say use. ;)
Wouldn't surprise me if you keep your kitted 6960 as your go-to, with an FN 249 ready to rock in your safe room in case things get serious.
Actually my designated HD guns are Colt 6945, 6933, MP5A2, HK 33K, MP5k-PDW and various handguns. If it seems like it might go outdoors the stand bys are Colt 6920, 6920 EPR, Colt 6520, AUG A3 and a UMP.
I missed out on the 6960s but honestly the EPR fills the role nicely and don't have a 249.
The one I wish I had gotten but missed was a Colt 901, I thought they'd keep that one in production a bit longer than they did.
If I were to pick up the primary HD AR, I have ~30 rounds with which to work. If I pick up the primary HD M4, I have 22 rounds with which to work.
What is the weight of the shotgun as configured?
Somewhere across this land, somebody's HD weapon is grandpa's old double barrel.
And almost every time that's enough. Add 2 spare shells and a pistol for backup and you'll probably be fine if you've trained.
Recent owner of 1301 tactical 7+1; lightweight, fast, very easily manageable, and fun AF to shoot. First choice for HD situation, no, that is reserved for the AR pistol (unbraced). However, the 1301 does fill that role when traveling to mountain cabin.
And almost every time that's enough. Add 2 spare shells and a pistol for backup and you'll probably be fine if you've trained.
Unless more than one person is in your house. The above is serious "nobody needs more than 10 rounds" logic.
You have no idea what you will need until it happens. What happened to a house in town last week is almost completely unrelated to what might happen at your house next week.
Let just one person get ahold of your kids and turn it into a hostage situation and then tell me how gramps double barrel and 4 rounds is gonna be fine because you have "training."|
Didn't we just have a thread about the use of shotguns today? I seem to recall lots of people poo-pooing shotguns, which is idiodic.SAS apparently did not get the memo they are obsolete
SAS apparently did not get the memo they are obsolete
We should also remember dude with a shotgun and a SAS "team" vs. lone homeowner factor. If I could roll with an SAS "team" you could probably make me pretty comfortable with just a Taurus Judge when it came to home defense.
What is the weight of the shotgun as configured?
The 1301 Tactical with 9 shells loaded, an aluminum mag cover and clamp, Aridus mount and RMR, one 7 shell and one 6 shell card, no light and no sling weighs 9 lbs 2.6 oz.
An M4 with fixed stock, titanium 7 round magazine, AVA Light Mount, factory irons, and the same shell count weighs 10 lbs 8 oz.
SAS apparently did not get the memo they are obsolete
Meh, dude probably didn't even swap ammo. Breaching slugs to the face? That'll never work. :p
The 1301 Tactical with 9 shells loaded, an aluminum mag cover and clamp, Aridus mount and RMR, one 7 shell and one 6 shell card, no light and no sling weighs 9 lbs 2.6 oz.
Thanks.
Unless more than one person is in your house. The above is serious "nobody needs more than 10 rounds" logic.
You have no idea what you will need until it happens. What happened to a house in town last week is almost completely unrelated to what might happen at your house next week.
Let just one person get ahold of your kids and turn it into a hostage situation and then tell me how gramps double barrel and 4 rounds is gonna be fine because you have "training."|
It's an "80% solution" tool.
Not my first choice but I'd feel "okay" with one. Needs a WML though. And LOP reduced.
I've seen "after" pics of a 870 used at "inside the room" distance with standard 00 buck, it can happen.
Pro tip: When the police walk in on you with an 870 and "you" in their sight picture, don't try and outdraw them.
After becoming a certified shotgun instructor for the LEO world, I picked up an 1187P. I could shoot it so fast it sounded like a beltfed. It is absolutely obscene what a good man with a good running shotgun can do. I never carried the 1187P on duty, and when I did carry a shotgun in patrol or teams, it was always an 870. The 870 can flat out shoot with a solid operator, but IMHO where the 870 shines (and 590A1s) is that it is an "all anywhere, all times, and all ammo" weapon.
"began panicking as two of the bodies didn’t have heads"
Breaching rounds, explosive projectiles I have never heard of, or hyperbole?
Andy
Shotgun breaching rounds are a solid-ish hunk of powdered iron. Now, when they enter the solid medium of a door frame, etc... they go poof and expend all of their kinetic energy inside said medium. I once breached a door and there was a porceline figuring 2 inches inside on a knick knack table. It had brown dust on it, but was un harmed. However, out to 25 yards or so, the hunk is as effective as a 1 ounce slug and will **** them up. I'd assume they refer to these breaching rounds. I was a breacher for our SWAT team for a few years, primarily with a shotgun.
I agree that the SAS guy knew how to use his weapon, and got it done.
I don't think Prepare was thinking about some kind of drum magazine.
My HD shottys have 9 rounds in the gun and 13 attached to them on cards, for a total of of 22 available shells. I'll take 9 plus 13 00 BK over 30 rounds of 5.56 every day without hesitation.
What if your kid is taken hostage? Worth considering. I'd never choose a shotgun as my primary unless I just wanted pure carnage... and then... I'd have to give it thought.
Better setup, but still less than ideal.
yeah...if you actually believe that, in the middle of a gunfight, you'll even consider what rounds are what and which to use for what situation... you're nuts. LOL
yeah...if you actually believe that, in the middle of a gunfight, you'll even consider what rounds are what and which to use for what situation... you're nuts. LOL
Like I said earlier...
I don't like them for primary HD because of limited magazine capacities and their tendency to cause tremendous property damage when fired in a home. Suppression options are generally useless.
So kinda big, seriously loud, a little heavy and reloads can be a PITA. But if I was a breacher on some "ninja seal" group, I wouldn't waste time doing a weapon transition, I'd just continue to F things up with my Benelli. But not my first choice as a defensive weapon.
Like I said earlier...
I don't like them for primary HD because of limited magazine capacities and their tendency to cause tremendous property damage when fired in a home. Suppression options are generally useless.
So kinda big, seriously loud, a little heavy and reloads can be a PITA. But if I was a breacher on some "ninja seal" group, I wouldn't waste time doing a weapon transition, I'd just continue to F things up with my Benelli. But not my first choice as a defensive weapon.
read my post about breaching rounds... which will not cycle an auto, btw.
What if your kid is taken hostage? Worth considering. I'd never choose a shotgun as my primary unless I just wanted pure carnage... and then... I'd have to give it thought.
I don’t have any kids, and live alone. If I’m threatened, then carnage will ensue.
I don’t have any kids, and live alone. If I’m threatened, then carnage will ensue.
Fair enough. I bid you good luck in your ensuing bloodbath, sir!
read my post about breaching rounds... which will not cycle an auto, btw.
Most LE rounds won't hence Benelli M3s and such. My only point was I don't find them ideal but most of us can still make most things work if we had to. I could probably get away with a S&W 27 and a pocket full of speed loaders with a SF light using a Chapman, but it wouldn't be my first choice.
Most LE rounds won't hence Benelli M3s and such. My only point was I don't find them ideal but most of us can still make most things work if we had to. I could probably get away with a S&W 27 and a pocket full of speed loaders with a SF light using a Chapman, but it wouldn't be my first choice.
i was only commenting in regard to the SAS and their breaching practices, my brother.
i was only commenting in regard to the SAS and their breaching practices, my brother.
I was just trying to clarify the confusion I created with my copy / paste comment from earlier which created confusion.
:sarcastic:
After becoming a certified shotgun instructor for the LEO world, I picked up an 1187P. I could shoot it so fast it sounded like a beltfed. It is absolutely obscene what a good man with a good running shotgun can do. I never carried the 1187P on duty, and when I did carry a shotgun in patrol or teams, it was always an 870. The 870 can flat out shoot with a solid operator, but IMHO where the 870 shines (and 590A1s) is that it is an "all anywhere, all times, and all ammo" weapon.
Our SWAT operators were issued 1187 Sage shotguns and I had the opportunity to put them through their paces on several occasions. They were a bit heavy, but felt recoil was light with OO Buckshot and slugs. They were decent running shotguns but would not run on light loads and operated sporadically with Ferret shells.
Even though the Sage was a good weapon, the 870 ran on everything and I feel it was a better all round shotgun. I'd pick either shotgun for problem solving with the right loads.
The Beretta 1301 seems to be the current favorite among autoloaders.
The Beretta 1301 seems to be the current favorite among autoloaders.
I will always be an inertial bolt guy, church of Tom Knapp.
hotbiggun42
04-12-23, 22:45
For a lot of civillians, shotguns are a firearm they grew up using which makes it a fine choice for HD.
Averageman
04-12-23, 22:56
For a lot of civillians, shotguns are a firearm they grew up using which makes it a fine choice for HD.
If my Son, who is a nongun guy asked me for a gun, I would give him a pump shotgun first. A Glock 17 next.
Simple is best under stress.
If my Son, who is a nongun guy asked me for a gun, I would give him a pump shotgun first. A Glock 17 next.
Simple is best under stress.
Much as I hate to reinforce the stereotype. When I moved back down to Florida in 1990 I knew I'd be living in some questionable areas so I left many of my expensive guns in Iowa with family. My main "deal with shit" gun was a Rem 870, A Norinco "red side folder" which I should have never gotten rid of (but I thought I wanted the Polytech version instead and that they would always be around) and in 1994 I bought a HK USP. It would be a few years later when I finally bought a decent house in a decent neighborhood and started relocating my guns to Florida.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.