View Full Version : Bug-out gun of sufficient power/range
Okay, let's say we need something of the size and weight of a Kel Tec Sub2000 but firing 5.56 at minimum. Ability to fold, but doesn't have to function folded. Yeah, the weight won't be like the Sub2000 as it'll need to have sturdier construction, but the ability to fold flat like the Kel Tec. It'd probably need to be a bullpup design......doing some measuring tonight of my Sub2000 vs CAR-15 clone and it was apparent that in order to achieve a 16" folded package it would need to be a bullpup. I have a little backpack stuffed with a few "survival" things has one open pocket left that would accommodate this fantasy weapon nicely.
How close would a GAU-5A built with carbon composite and 2055 get to your goal?
How close would a GAU-5A built with carbon composite and 2055 get to your goal?
Is that the USAF's new folding "survival rifle" for aircrews? If so, might just work.....
Yes but it doesn't fold, rather the upper separates at the front of the receiver. Slower but smaller than a side-folding AR, and not light which is why I figure exotic carbon/2055 parts would be needed to get close to your target weight.
Foxtrot Mike makes a 9" folding 5.56.
I wish they made one in 300blk.
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Diamondback
03-20-23, 14:05
Yes but it doesn't fold, rather the upper separates at the front of the receiver. Slower but smaller than a side-folding AR, and not light which is why I figure exotic carbon/2055 parts would be needed to get close to your target weight.
Main problem is the Midwest rail is discontinued, and there ain't a lot compatible with the QRB takedown kit. Mine has a Midwest Combat Rail Lightweight, just slid on until I can get it in to the smith to lop off the parts that make it incompatible; it rocks a small prism sight until the rail is locked on and it's time to install my coupler device. (There's just no way both pieces will fit in the bag I found when enough spacer is stacked in to keep the optic. Frankly, at its expected engagement range in my ecosystem even the irons are probably unnecessary except ya gotta have SOMETHING.)
There isn't anything like that unless you want a barrel that is stupidly short for 5.56 or you go .300 blk.
Anything else will be substantially bigger and heavier, including bull-pups. But if you're not willing to drop to a PCC then a bull-pup is your answer.
The next size up are rifles with folding stocks.
Defaultmp3
03-20-23, 15:18
Q Honey Badger is too long assembled at 20", but can be broken down to upper and lower. It would be 4.5 lb rather that 4.25 lb, and be in .300 BLK rather than .223 Rem/5.56×45mm.
SIG Rattler can be had in both .223 Rem/5.56×45mm and .300 BLK, and meet length, but would be ~6 lb.
Maxim PDX comes in 7.62×39mm, .223 Rem/5.56×45mm, and .300 BLK, but would be 18.75" and 5.625 lb.
Desert Tech MDRX Micron is a bullpup with an 11.5" barrel that comes in .223 Rem/5.56×45mm, but would be over 7 lb and 24".
The SCAR 16 CQC has a 10", but would be 21" folded and 6.7 lb.
A Krinkov-type would be ~20" folded and be >6 lb.
Basically, you don't really have any choices for that kind of size and weight with a rifle caliber, and even the ones that come close typically have very short barrels.
I personally don't see much point in a backpack gun as a civilian outside of ease of transport. I have a 10.3" with a LAW folder that fulfills that role, but I don't see it as something I would be deploying straight out the bag. A bullpup with an OAL of 16" would suck to shoot, anyway, it'd be so scrunched up that ergonomics would likely be awful for any normal-sized adult.
My answer to that question is my BRN-180. Its a great firearm to suppress as well.
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Diamondback
03-20-23, 17:54
My answer to that question is my BRN-180. Its a great firearm to suppress as well.
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And what a coinkydink, right as you post that Brownells just blasted out an email announcing a BRN-180S in .300BLK.
https://www.brownells.com/the-trigger-times/guns--gear/product-spotlights/product-spotlight-the-ultra-quiet-brn-180sh-upper/
Sidneyious
03-20-23, 18:01
Main problem is the Midwest rail is discontinued, and there ain't a lot compatible with the QRB takedown kit. Mine has a Midwest Combat Rail Lightweight, just slid on until I can get it in to the smith to lop off the parts that make it incompatible; it rocks a small prism sight until the rail is locked on and it's time to install my coupler device. (There's just no way both pieces will fit in the bag I found when enough spacer is stacked in to keep the optic. Frankly, at its expected engagement range in my ecosystem even the irons are probably unnecessary except ya gotta have SOMETHING.)
There is also the dolos iv8888 was pimping for a lot a few years back, law folder and stuff it in a backpack.
Not as quick but id take it over a pcc or a bullpup because I hate both.
Or just use a sinch strap to hold it to the pack, who cares if its hanging out its a bug out gun.
"Bug Out" gun? Apologies for slight post derailment, but the concept of 'bugging out' seems highly highly unlikely to many and all you are is refugee. Stay home. It's safer and you have all your 'stuff' at hand.
And what a coinkydink, right as you post that Brownells just blasted out an email announcing a BRN-180S in .300BLK.
https://www.brownells.com/the-trigger-times/guns--gear/product-spotlights/product-spotlight-the-ultra-quiet-brn-180sh-upper/
Now THAT is interesting, although would require a new caliber to my inventory.
What is the brand of brace that looks like the HK side-folders, and will it fit an AR lower? Kind of like this one: https://www.abprototype.com/sb-tactical-cz-evo-folding-brace-hk-style-black/
"Bug Out" gun? Apologies for slight post derailment, but the concept of 'bugging out' seems highly highly unlikely to many and all you are is refugee. Stay home. It's safer and you have all your 'stuff' at hand.
Yeah I get that, it's a euphemism. Mainly talking about something easily concealed in a backpack (not a rucksack) that is not a PCC. That BRN 300BLK is intriguing, but with the coming brace ban complicates things a bit.
Diamondback
03-20-23, 20:24
BRN180, I wouldn't even mount a tube, just go pure pistol. Maybe add one of those gimmick folding grips like ASDW too.
And what a coinkydink, right as you post that Brownells just blasted out an email announcing a BRN-180S in .300BLK.
https://www.brownells.com/the-trigger-times/guns--gear/product-spotlights/product-spotlight-the-ultra-quiet-brn-180sh-upper/
I was going to build one of these but read about issues with build quality and functioning. So, I waited.
After a year or two I still read about folks who have sent them in for repair without satisfaction and now I'm reading of issues about soft metal wearing in guns that were working.
I bought a Mini-14 Tactical instead. Don't shoot it much but it's been working just fine. Ruger mags and .223 (instead of 5.56) is best for peak reliability. I enjoy the folding stock.
But I still have a BRN 180 receiver and maybe someday they'll get the uppers right and I'll go ahead with the build. (16 or 18 in.)
BRN180, I wouldn't even mount a tube, just go pure pistol. Maybe add one of those gimmick folding grips like ASDW too.
I ran some drills with a slung Ap5P (MKE MP5K) for accuracy and time and it did surprisingly well. Very viable tool. It's what it was designed to be, except these days we have nice optics to mount on them and JHP's.
I never got in to .300 blk, but I've read of many guys who went through the trouble of configuring guns to run .300 suppressed only to go to 9x19 suppressed because it does the nearly the same thing for far less money for more training / practice.
You can currently buy a new, excellent AP5P for under $1200 shipped. Great suppressor host. No piston / reliability issues like a tilt-lock pistol and you can put a larger optic on it than you can a "regular" pistol. Low-recoil roller-lock goodness. Mags are handier than rifle mags, too. MKE mags are about $40. The MKE mags don't always feed JHP's well, use HK brand mags for that.
I think we need to define what the need of a bug out bigger than a handgun really is.
Range do we need in the USA range longer than 150 yards?
Is the bug out meaning you are leaving the city and heading out to family and friends in the country? Then why does size matter? The rifle is in your car or truck.
For me I see my 357 sig AR fitting my need for this mission. Same mags and bullets as my pistol. Mags are smaller in size so I can carry more in the same sized bag as if I had a rifle caliber long gun.
And what a coinkydink, right as you post that Brownells just blasted out an email announcing a BRN-180S in .300BLK.
https://www.brownells.com/the-trigger-times/guns--gear/product-spotlights/product-spotlight-the-ultra-quiet-brn-180sh-upper/Mine is a gen 1 5.56.
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I ran some drills with a slung Ap5P (MKE MP5K) for accuracy and time and it did surprisingly well. Very viable tool. It's what it was designed to be, except these days we have nice optics to mount on them and JHP's.
I never got in to .300 blk, but I've read of many guys who went through the trouble of configuring guns to run .300 suppressed only to go to 9x19 suppressed because it does the nearly the same thing for far less money for more training / practice.
You can currently buy a new, excellent AP5P for under $1200 shipped. Great suppressor host. No piston / reliability issues like a tilt-lock pistol and you can put a larger optic on it than you can a "regular" pistol. Low-recoil roller-lock goodness. Mags are handier than rifle mags, too. MKE mags are about $40. The MKE mags don't always feed JHP's well, use HK brand mags for that.
300blk supers get you most of the way to 7.62x39 with much less blast/flash and less recoil as well.
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I think we need to define what the need of a bug out bigger than a handgun really is.
Range do we need in the USA range longer than 150 yards?
Is the bug out meaning you are leaving the city and heading out to family and friends in the country? Then why does size matter? The rifle is in your car or truck.
For me I see my 357 sig AR fitting my need for this mission. Same mags and bullets as my pistol. Mags are smaller in size so I can carry more in the same sized bag as if I had a rifle caliber long gun.
Your 357 Sig setup is VERY interesting, and once you get it done please post pics. It might also meet my requirements. What would be even better would be a 357 Sig folding "bullpup" along the lines of the Kel Tec P2000 but perhaps better QC.....maybe the new S&W MP FPC would satiate that quality itch, but make one in 357 Sig.
"Bug out" means I'm grabbing shit and di-di-mau'ing out of Dodge. Might even be a bag I've thrown in my truck if shit got "iffy" as I live in the sticks but work in a large city M-F. The OAL requirement of an AR-style weapon would probably dictate 300BLK, but the KT P2000 has a 16" barrel and 5.56 would do just fine out of that (but you likely can't get 5.56 in a KT P2000 sized package.....however your 357 Sig just might fit with some beefing up!).
While we cannot predict when shit goes south, usually you can see it coming like the "Summer of Love 2020". I keep a handgun in each of our vehicles all the time, but in special circumstances something with a little more "luvin" might be in order if you know what I mean. If roads are blocked and you have to hoof it out then I'd prefer something with a little more punch and distance than a Glock 19. I dunno, maybe 150-200yds max?
These of any use?
https://cmmg.com/pistol-dissent-mk4-300blk-6-5
https://cmmg.com/pistol-dissent-mk4-300blk-10-5
[QUOTE=ABNAK;3096211]Your 357 Sig setup is VERY interesting, and once you get it done please post pics. It might also meet my requirements.
The barrel is going out I hope today to the guy that will be reaming the chamber to 357 sig. CMMG or me messed up on the handguard and I got a 7" and not a 4". so that has to go back today.
This gun will still get over 2200fps with the Underwood ammo. It should come out to be around 13.60 inches length with the stock folded and 20.5 with the stock open.
For me this gun fits with my daily needs. I will say if I were driving across country I would want a rifle caliber gun in the truck with me
Diamondback
03-22-23, 18:24
Allow me to spitball a concept that has two barriers to overcome first...
1. Ruger needs to make the PC Carbine and PC Charger in more near-9mm cliers like .357Sig or .40S&W.
2. PC Carbine/Charger aftermarket support needs to evolve up to the level where the 10/22 is, or at least bare receivers and chassis need to be available separately.
Prefatory remarks aside, y'all might recall me building a "Charger Convertible" that goes from pistol to rifle and back simply by swapping a longer barrel and snapping a 1913-mount stock onto a core Charger receiver assembly. Since the PC Carbine/PC Charger relate similarly to their .22LR counterparts and are built around the 10/22 Takedown as a foundation, why couldn't you do the same thing with them?
My build concept would be:
*Start with a factory PC Charger, magwell to match your sidearm of choice. (Not an option here in WA with our backdoor handgun registry and other bullshit; or for me since I'm single-stack 1911 .45)
*Swap on a FAB Defense folding pistol grip like on the USAF GAU-5A
*Add 16" barrel with muzzle device of choice mated to Midwest 14" handguard; possibly an intermediate barrel in the MI 12" handguard and a brace if The Ban gets bitchslapped in court.
*Mount optic, rear sight and pistol-barrel-zeroed front sight on receiver rail; rifle-zeroed front sight on handguard. Add color coded witness marks to adjust rear sight for pistol or rifle zero.
Essentially, something like a bigger, meaner "Serious Work" version of this.
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/655632728812683276/1086345999456419892/20230317_102614.jpg
Allow me to spitball a concept that has two barriers to overcome first...
1. Ruger needs to make the PC Carbine and PC Charger in more near-9mm cliers like .357Sig or .40S&W.
2. PC Carbine/Charger aftermarket support needs to evolve up to the level where the 10/22 is, or at least bare receivers and chassis need to be available separately.
Prefatory remarks aside, y'all might recall me building a "Charger Convertible" that goes from pistol to rifle and back simply by swapping a longer barrel and snapping a 1913-mount stock onto a core Charger receiver assembly. Since the PC Carbine/PC Charger relate similarly to their .22LR counterparts and are built around the 10/22 Takedown as a foundation, why couldn't you do the same thing with them?
My build concept would be:
*Start with a factory PC Charger, magwell to match your sidearm of choice. (Not an option here in WA with our backdoor handgun registry and other bullshit; or for me since I'm single-stack 1911 .45)
*Swap on a FAB Defense folding pistol grip like on the USAF GAU-5A
*Add 16" barrel with muzzle device of choice mated to Midwest 14" handguard; possibly an intermediate barrel in the MI 12" handguard and a brace if The Ban gets bitchslapped in court.
*Mount optic, rear sight and pistol-barrel-zeroed front sight on receiver rail; rifle-zeroed front sight on handguard. Add color coded witness marks to adjust rear sight for pistol or rifle zero.
Essentially, something like a bigger, meaner "Serious Work" version of this.
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/655632728812683276/1086345999456419892/20230317_102614.jpg
They would need to have some sort of delayed blowback or locked breech to keep weight down though.
Andy
A folder adds complexity and something else to fail.
Would either of these two fit the pocket of that bag?
If you're "Bugging out," won't you have the carbine in your hands?
LMT:
https://smallarmsreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/11/header-7.jpg
LWRC:
https://thereptilehouseblogdotcom.files.wordpress.com/2019/09/img_3800.jpg?w=1200
Diamondback
03-28-23, 10:43
They would need to have some sort of delayed blowback or locked breech to keep weight down though.
Andy
IIRC didn't Ruger already do that when they beefed up the design for the PC Carbine and PC Charger from the 10/22 basic concept? They're not just a straight "upscaled 10/22" even though they use some of the same FCG components.
A folder adds complexity and something else to fail.
Would either of these two fit the pocket of that bag?
If you're "Bugging out," won't you have the carbine in your hands?
I agree a more serious gun to get back home to me is my 357AR, it has a folding stock and can fit in a small sized pack. Your right in my life with a folder on a AR it is not something to do in a hurry.
Bug out to me means I am leaving for someplace more rural and I want more fire power in the truck which is my 11.5 inch ARs.
Who makes the adjustable vertical grip on the bottom rifle?
I think CAA and Battle Grip.
A folder adds complexity and something else to fail.
Would either of these two fit the pocket of that bag?
If you're "Bugging out," won't you have the carbine in your hands?
LMT:
https://smallarmsreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/11/header-7.jpg
Is that a "chopped" LMT SOPMOD stock? If so, where to find one?
Defaultmp3
03-28-23, 19:32
Is that a "chopped" LMT SOPMOD stock? If so, where to find one?From LMT.
https://lmtdefense.com/product/pdw-buttstock-kit/
From LMT.
https://lmtdefense.com/product/pdw-buttstock-kit/
Damn, $500 for that? AND out of stock? Sorry I asked! (but thanks for the link)
IIRC didn't Ruger already do that when they beefed up the design for the PC Carbine and PC Charger from the 10/22 basic concept? They're not just a straight "upscaled 10/22" even though they use some of the same FCG components.
The PC carbines are simple blow back. The spec sheet I looked at for a 16" version shows it weighs 6.8 lbs. That's a lot of weight for pistol ballistics, given that a 16" 1892 Winchester weighs 6 lbs and an 18" M1 carbine weighs 5.5 (and both are walnut and steel).
Andy
Diamondback
03-30-23, 11:09
The PC carbines are simple blow back. The spec sheet I looked at for a 16" version shows it weighs 6.8 lbs. That's a lot of weight for pistol ballistics, given that a 16" 1892 Winchester weighs 6 lbs and an 18" M1 carbine weighs 5.5 (and both a walnut and steel).
Andy
Thanks--7lb is almost all the way into the AR weight class, in which case you might as well just build a GAU-5 pistol with a swappable 16" front-end.
there is a product that Keltec makes that is similar to the sub2000, but in 556 it is called the SU16. It folds as well but it's the stock that folds. they make the SU16D9, and the SU16D12. one is a 9 inch barrel the other is 12. It's not a high end rifle just like the sub2000 is not, but I would think it could get you home.
folded length should be below 20 inches for the 9 and a little over for the 12. keltecs specs seem wrong there 16inch I 26.9 folded, but the 12 is supposedly 24.9, and the 9 is 19. it might be worth a look. the only issue that makes giving it a shot is the tax stamp involved.
I would like to see a CZ Scorpion size 9mm SBR with a locked breech or delayed blowback in the 4.5 - 5 lb range. Even better if available in 40 S&W/357 SIG.
I have been messing with my M1 Garands and am hating on heavy guns :)
Andy
Sidneyious
03-31-23, 13:53
Whatever happened to that mechtech thing?
there is a product that Keltec makes that is similar to the sub2000, but in 556 it is called the SU16. It folds as well but it's the stock that folds. they make the SU16D9, and the SU16D12. one is a 9 inch barrel the other is 12. It's not a high end rifle just like the sub2000 is not, but I would think it could get you home.
folded length should be below 20 inches for the 9 and a little over for the 12. keltecs specs seem wrong there 16inch I 26.9 folded, but the 12 is supposedly 24.9, and the 9 is 19. it might be worth a look. the only issue that makes giving it a shot is the tax stamp involved.
Hadn't thought about the Kel Tec SU16C. Of course it's still a Kel Tec, so.....
Having said that, I took a gander online and can't find it in stock anywhere (that isn't a scam website of course).
Whatever happened to that mechtech thing?
From their website: .357Sig is no longer supported, but the Glock 32 frame can be used on a CCU chambered in 9mm or 40S&W.
So no, the 357Sig isn't an option for the Mech Tech.
WEIGHT
4.1 lbs.
LENGTH
17.75”
https://fm-products.com/foxtrot-mike-products-mike-15-9-223-wylde-gen-2-pistol-fm15-223-g2-9p/
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