View Full Version : Waco: American Apocalypse
On NF. Not watched it yet, but will. Used never released footage and such.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=scZ2x7R_XXc
BTW, this 60 minutes segment was worth a view. 60 M Australia is actually still able to produce some excellent shows, while the US version has gone the way of woke garbage, but I digress:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VfQjNzJzlZo
That was a long time ago, no telling what they would be willing to do today !
Not to mention who in their right mind would give NetFlix their money?
Averageman
03-21-23, 20:49
Very interesting.
It's a shame when you find out that he could arrested at the local Whataburger without all the drama.
But they wanted to make a point and show force.
I have a REALLY hard time accepting the pics I've seen of HRT members taken in the same spot, with the same charred building and body in the background (there was a different guy in each pic, one had an M14, one had a Remington sniper rifle). Like they were on Okinawa in 1945 or some such shit. Disgusting.
Our old friend Lon Horiuchi was there too! Probably bagged him a few for his total kill record.
Gotta love them G-Men!
I have a REALLY hard time accepting the pics I've seen of HRT members taken in the same spot, with the same charred building and body in the background (there was a different guy in each pic, one had an M14, one had a Remington sniper rifle). Like they were on Okinawa in 1945 or some such shit. Disgusting.
Our old friend Lon Horiuchi was there too! Probably bagged him a few for his total kill record.
Gotta love them G-Men!
The one that got me was the need to fly the ATF flag after they burned down the building.
http://www.web-ak.com/waco/death/fig/d_fig06.jpg
Janet Reno was an incredible POS.
Very interesting.
It's a shame when you find out that he could arrested at the local Whataburger without all the drama.
But they wanted to make a point and show force.
They wanted to storm the gates for the tv cameras, then perp walk everyone past a table full of scary black rifles. That's the only reason there is footage of them getting their asses shot up in response.
A podcast called Jimmy Akin's Mysterious World did a great 2 part analysis. Jimmy is a pretty even dude and not prone to jump to conclusions or conspiracy theories but easily finds fault with the feds.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZI9cH6ZeJt0&list=PLNbswtWzJYCK9g5gYH26HcUC-0hIDlftF&index=179
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BmC9LLhz5A&list=PLNbswtWzJYCK9g5gYH26HcUC-0hIDlftF&index=179
Personally, the ultimate responsibility falls on Koresh, and the government response was over the top and totally avoidable. They wanted to a photo op that turned into a cluster F. They then made it worse with hoisting victory flags, etc. People have every right to be upset on various levels, but I think some lost fact of the sociopath pedophile running the cult who'd convinced all those people he was their God/speaking for God.
Simply wait for him to leave the compound, arrest him. Then have a plan to talk with those in the compound about it etc.
Personally, the ultimate responsibility falls on Koresh, and the government response was over the top and totally avoidable. They wanted to a photo op that turned into a cluster F. They then made it worse with hoisting victory flags, etc. People have every right to be upset on various levels, but I think some lost fact of the sociopath pedophile running the cult who'd convinced all those people he was their God/speaking for God.
Simply wait for him to leave the compound, arrest him. Then have a plan to talk with those in the compound about it etc.
Boom. Done.
The government's response of killing the proverbial fly with a sledgehammer was completely, totally, unequivocally unjustified and shameful.
Boom. Done.
The government's response of killing the proverbial fly with a sledgehammer was completely, totally, unequivocally unjustified and shameful.
Agreed, but that does not absolve Koresh, and I have found many simply ignore that part of the events. The response by the government, per usual, was totally out of proportion to the threat, and they don't like it when they show up all tacticool and it turns into battle vs cool take down vid.
Regardless, Koresh was a POS and I personally will not overlook/ignore that aspect regardless of the gubment response to it. Reno should have been fired, just as HC should have been for Benghazi, and on it goes.
Anyone else remember the ring airfoil pistol bullets? Made to penetrate body armor, when the Army tested a .45 ACP on a goat wearing a kevlar helmet it penetrated both sides of the helmet and the goat. Supposedly the ATF was using these bullets and some of the dead agents had the distinctive cookie cutter wounds that were a characteristic of this round. Which is likely the reason their autopsies are classified, a total clown show.
Anyone else remember the ring airfoil pistol bullets? Made to penetrate body armor, when the Army tested a .45 ACP on a goat wearing a kevlar helmet it penetrated both sides of the helmet and the goat. Supposedly the ATF was using these bullets and some of the dead agents had the distinctive cookie cutter wounds that were a characteristic of this round. Which is likely the reason their autopsies are classified, a total clown show.
Don't recall that, but meaning agents were killed by friendly fire? You can see the vid where the agents literally shot while attempting to enter the building and bullets coming up through the roof and such.
Agreed, but that does not absolve Koresh, and I have found many simply ignore that part of the events. The response by the government, per usual, was totally out of proportion to the threat, and they don't like it when they show up all tacticool and it turns into battle vs cool take down vid.
Regardless, Koresh was a POS and I personally will not overlook/ignore that aspect regardless of the gubment response to it. Reno should have been fired, just as HC should have been for Benghazi, and on it goes.
Absolve Koresh? No, of course not. Did he need to be got? Absolutely.
Personally, the ultimate responsibility falls on Koresh, and the government response was over the top and totally avoidable. They wanted to a photo op that turned into a cluster F. They then made it worse with hoisting victory flags, etc. People have every right to be upset on various levels, but I think some lost fact of the sociopath pedophile running the cult who'd convinced all those people he was their God/speaking for God.
Simply wait for him to leave the compound, arrest him. Then have a plan to talk with those in the compound about it etc.
Not sure anyone wants to absolve Koresh. But if their goal was rescuing children, they failed...hard and more importantly that isn't the business of ATF. So the stated reason for the raid was informant information of illegal conversions to machine guns. Allegations of pedophilia and fabricated claims of dealing drugs in order to get military assistance from Delta are all tangential.
They assaulted a group of people in a building full of kids over possible illegal machine guns. As everyone involved noted, local LE stated they could have picked him up in town any time they wanted.
Add in things like they "lost" the front doors from evidence that might have proven ATF fired first and what looks like a classic "vent and burn" really do make this one scream of state sponsored terrorism.
Don't recall that, but meaning agents were killed by friendly fire? You can see the vid where the agents literally shot while attempting to enter the building and bullets coming up through the roof and such.
If it happened, it was probably the group moving on the front doors and not the ladder group trying to go in through the window. Keep in mind ATF controlled the video they shot they day, they are going to only show the things that support their position.
Absolve Koresh? No, of course not. Did he need to be got? Absolutely.
Not saying your are, I'm saying seen many who completely ignore his role in what happened, and only focus on the governments response.
Not sure anyone wants to absolve Koresh. But if their goal was rescuing children, they failed...hard and more importantly that isn't the business of ATF. So the stated reason for the raid was informant information of illegal conversions to machine guns. Allegations of pedophilia and fabricated claims of dealing drugs in order to get military assistance from Delta are all tangential.
They assaulted a group of people in a building full of kids over possible illegal machine guns. As everyone involved noted, local LE stated they could have picked him up in town any time they wanted.
Add in things like they "lost" the front doors from evidence that might have proven ATF fired first and what looks like a classic "vent and burn" really do make this one scream of state sponsored terrorism.
I think the pedo part was also supported by some of the survivors and other members, not sure on the drugs. It was total disaster to be sure and cover their A$$ was in full effect no doubt. The NF vid series supposedly has unseen footage from the FBI and such, so will report back when I view that.
If it happened, it was probably the group moving on the front doors and not the ladder group trying to go in through the window. Keep in mind ATF controlled the video they shot they day, they are going to only show the things that support their position.
Along with the lost door, not doubt when the lost footage...
Not saying your are, I'm saying seen many who completely ignore his role in what happened, and only focus on the governments response.
I think if we start with Koresh was a wacko cult leader who thought he was jesus but wore glasses and all of his followers were f'ing delusional morons who were waiting to get Jim Jonesed it somehow let's Reno and ATF off the hook and muddies the waters.
It's a bit like a SWAT team that hits the wrong damn house, kills three people but ironically those three people were running a meth lab. Lots of people are just "sounds like three people that we won't miss" and the fact that the SWAT team shot up the wrong damn house gets overlooked.
And that happens a LOT with Waco. So people who want to make sure they aren't in the "wrong house" someday want to keep the focus on what ATF and Reno did, not what Koresh did. Furthermore, if the FBI was investigating Waco because they had solid evidence of pedophilia and there were no better opportunities to arrest Koresh and they did their best to not turn it into a burning fiasco and maybe hit them quietly in a pre dawn raid, almost nobody would be criticizing anything.
But this was 100% about Reno grandstanding, giving Clinton justification the "assault weapon laws" he wanted and they were gonna boogeyman the Davidians as crazy cultists, probable white supremacists and kiddie rapers who were making machine guns for armageddon for every news outlet in the world. I'd say Reno was as dangerously delusional as Koresh was, like Koresh she was willing to sacrifice anyone to bring her world view into reality.
Maybe I’m wrong, but say Koresh was engaged in pedophilia. I think it’s worse being burned alive, but I’ve never experienced either.
Maybe I’m wrong, but say Koresh was engaged in pedophilia. I think it’s worse being burned alive, but I’ve never experienced either.
I know some people who were abused as kids, it's shit you walk around with for the rest of your life, but so long as you managed to escape alive, most of them are glad to be alive and finally living their life.
But that is some seriously evil shit to do to a kid.
Koresh was surely a piece of shit, and I have little sympathy for people mentally weak enough to buy into a crock of shit that Koresh was selling... but the Government's handling of this was horrifying.
OK, David Koresh was a sicko, baby raping, delusional POS with an apocalyptic Messiah complex. Given.
Some of his followers were fatalistic, "end of the world is nigh", rabid sycophants. Given.
So what brainchild came to the table with, "So let's just see if we can push these nutjobs right over the edge with a daylight raid that plays right into their fantasies and practically guarantees this goes sideways! Worse comes to worse, we dust-off and nuke the site from orbit."
Averageman
03-22-23, 17:12
OK, David Koresh was a sicko, baby raping, delusional POS with an apocalyptic Messiah complex. Given.
Some of his followers were fatalistic, "end of the world is nigh", rabid sycophants. Given.
So what brainchild came to the table with, "So let's just see if we can push these nutjobs right over the edge with a daylight raid that plays right into their fantasies and practically guarantees this goes sideways! Worse comes to worse, we dust-off and nuke the site from orbit."
One of the few reasons we have for making a .gov was to protect us from whacky people like Koresh and from Koresh like nuts from taking advantage of even whackier People who were willing to follow him.
When we did all that we never considered that our .gov, the very one we go to for help, would have Janet Reno at the helm. Now when it comes to crazy, Koresh and Reno were about on the same wave length. Both pretty much creeps.
Reno allowed that whole thing to go so far off the rails that a lot of people local to Waco have sympathy for the people who were murdered by the ATF that day.
Not a lot of love overall for the whole messy Clinton mess.
So what brainchild came to the table with, "So let's just see if we can push these nutjobs right over the edge with a daylight raid that plays right into their fantasies and practically guarantees this goes sideways!
Agreed. Either it was evil or incompetence. If one good thing came of the mess, it's that it showed people the Government is not your friend.
…the people who were murdered by the ATF that day.
That’s what it comes down to.
Of course, my afternoon cartoons were interrupted by OKC footage not long after. So perhaps the biggest takeaway is that anarchy doesn’t work and neither does big government, because stupid and evil people are involved in both.
Averageman
03-22-23, 17:35
That’s what it comes down to.
Of course, my afternoon cartoons were interrupted by OKC footage not long after. So perhaps the biggest takeaway is that anarchy doesn’t work and neither does big government, because stupid and evil people are involved in both.
And I will say, You don't have to be a Paranoid to know not to put a Dady-Care in a Federal Building.
OK, David Koresh was a sicko, baby raping, delusional POS with an apocalyptic Messiah complex. Given.
Some of his followers were fatalistic, "end of the world is nigh", rabid sycophants. Given.
So what brainchild came to the table with, "So let's just see if we can push these nutjobs right over the edge with a daylight raid that plays right into their fantasies and practically guarantees this goes sideways! Worse comes to worse, we dust-off and nuke the site from orbit."
That is sorta what they were hoping for, but in the .gov version they quickly overtake and subdue them, then rescue the kiddies. They didn't expect resistance or competency with firearms.
And I will say, You don't have to be a Paranoid to know not to put a Dady-Care in a Federal Building.
You know it's unfortunate. Because McVeigh wasn't a super patriot either. He was acting right out of Turner Diaries, only instead of attacking the evil .gov he blew up a building mostly populated by ordinary people lucky enough to have a gov job with decent benefits and a day care. It wasn't full of Janet Reno's and I bet if you polled them anonymously, most wouldn't have been thrilled with their boss any more than the rest of us on most of the jobs we've had. I won't even get into the racist realities of the actual author William Pierce and the mostly racist fantasy he wrote.
And for the longest time, I didn't want to form an opinion on Waco because I didn't want to have any association with the likes of Koresh or McVeigh and neither one of them supported anything I believe in other than we all drink water and breathe air. But that doesn't make Reno or ATF at Waco the good guys either. Both of them seemed really good at killing kids because that somehow protects the rest of us and gives us freedom.
So first one I'm calling BS on is they were making grenades.
First obvious reason is nobody got fragged by grenades tossed out windows if if they had them, they have used them.
I'm willing to believe they attempted to manufacture grenades from dummy trainers, but anyone who knows anything about grenades and trainers knows it's far easier to start with a pipe bomb than with the body of a dummy grenade which has lots of problems most significant being a very thick body that would never fragment with the limited amount of explosive you might be able to pack in the channel.
I bet like a lot of people they imagined they could use the fuse setup from a Mk 18 smoke grenade, somehow weld the opening in the bottom shut and then just fill the body with some kind of explosive charge. Seen it attempted a couple times and basically you create a muzzle loader that fires the fuse housing out of the body of the dummy grenade and that's assuming you get some kind of workable setup that actually fires.
Sidneyious
03-23-23, 05:22
Whatever went on in that place may have been very unethical.
Sending the government in to murder the shit out of people and kids is not cool.
I started the series last night, so I don't have much to say about it yet. This two hour documentary on YouTube is very revealing. It shows federal agents shooting unarmed Davidians trying to escape the burning building.
https://youtu.be/7y5e9CZeoBg
I've been home sick all day and am almost done with it. I've developed a stronger opinion that there was some real dirtbags employed by the ATF/FBI and maybe a couple good guys. It was a completely mismanaged clown show.
…was…
Only thing I disagree with
Watched first two episodes, and so far it's very well done, info I didn't have, vids I had not seen. I'm feeling more in line with the ATF the more I'm watching. The real F up, was that they'd lost their element of surprise and should have called off the raid. The agent interviewed was clear at the time he recommended calling off the raid, and he was over ridden, and they walked right into a full on gun battle, for which they were not prepared for or really trained for at that level.
None of it needed to go down that way, someone assume that a large group of ATF agents in full ninja, they'd just give up. They were in complete shock that they, the gubment, were repelled and shut down. You can see it on their faces in the vids. From the firepower coming from the building, I'm amazed more agents were not killed.
Koresh was a POS and his followers brain dead morons. I feel for those children, amazed how his followers who survived still think the POS was God, while he used those kids, other's wives, etc for his own sick wants. He also made a straight up deal with the FBI to come out after they played his message, and he reneged saying God had told him to. F that guy. Death of those kids and everyone else is on him ultimately. The show has interviews with followers who survived, agents who where there, etc, so good stuff there that really gives you a sense of what they were all feeling/thinking at the time.
Will see how the next episodes deal with the ATF, FBI, etc deal with it, but so far, well done.
Averageman
03-24-23, 07:52
And for the longest time, I didn't want to form an opinion on Waco because I didn't want to have any association with the likes of Koresh or McVeigh and neither one of them supported anything I believe in other than we all drink water and breathe air. But that doesn't make Reno or ATF at Waco the good guys either. Both of them seemed really good at killing kids because that somehow protects the rest of us and gives us freedom.
At least to me it comes down to,
Who called the Police in the First place and what did they want done?
I'm just suggesting that no one local called and asked the ATF to come down and lay down the law by burning and killing people. The Federal Government came in and did all that on it's own.
I live fairly local to where this all went down, I was in the motorpool when they took the Engineer Vehicles to knock the building down.
Do you know what We Knew about the Branch Dividians? Nothing...
Not a peep.
So how do you keep all that quiet to the locals, but the FBI, ATF and DOJ know all about it?
At least to me it comes down to,
Who called the Police in the First place and what did they want done?
I'm just suggesting that no one local called and asked the ATF to come down and lay down the law by burning and killing people. The Federal Government came in and did all that on it's own.
I live fairly local to where this all went down, I was in the motorpool when they took the Engineer Vehicles to knock the building down.
Do you know what We Knew about the Branch Dividians? Nothing...
Not a peep.
So how do you keep all that quiet to the locals, but the FBI, ATF and DOJ know all about it?
Supposedly the local sheriff requested ATF assistance. Have not tracked down accuracy of the claim, and if true, didn't know that meant truck loads of agents doing what they did, etc.
On burning people, even survivors who still support that POS Koresh indicate the fire started inside by followers using gasoline. Seen multiple interviews suggesting that one.
We may never know the truth of it all, and per usual, the gubment went full a$$ covering mode after the event, which didn't make them look on the up and up to those who witnessed a horrifying thing and wanted answers.
I've been home sick all day and am almost done with it. I've developed a stronger opinion that there was some real dirtbags employed by the ATF/FBI and maybe a couple good guys. It was a completely mismanaged clown show.
*Are*
Averageman
03-24-23, 09:30
Supposedly the local sheriff requested ATF assistance. Have not tracked down accuracy of the claim, and if true, didn't know that meant truck loads of agents doing what they did, etc.
On burning people, even survivors who still support that POS Koresh indicate the fire started inside by followers using gasoline. Seen multiple interviews suggesting that one.
We may never know the truth of it all, and per usual, the gubment went full a$$ covering mode after the event, which didn't make them look on the up and up to those who witnessed a horrifying thing and wanted answers.
That's the thing, this is the heart of the Baptist South and as far as I know, no one said Boo!
Even if I suspect something aint right, if this is a rural area and I call the Sherriff, that's who I want answering the call. Not the ATF.
If he was afraid to go out there and talk to them and called the ATF to carry his water, well that's a different subject. I'm pretty sure no one envisioned this going this far sideways.
There were a lot of guns out there the Davidians were shooters, has anyone ever gathered up and got a count on all the full auto guns that the Davidians had on hand?
All this of Koresh having his way with Children and other Mens wives never came out until the siege was well under way.
If they were a bunch of perverts, they were pretty darn quiet about it as far as I can tell.
That's the thing, this is the heart of the Baptist South and as far as I know, no one said Boo!
Even if I suspect something aint right, if this is a rural area and I call the Sherriff, that's who I want answering the call. Not the ATF.
If he was afraid to go out there and talk to them and called the ATF to carry his water, well that's a different subject. I'm pretty sure no one envisioned this going this far sideways.
To be sure. We'd have to track back the process as to how/why they even came on the radar of LE. Perhaps this series with explore that part. Worth looking into for context. It's not so easy to find exactly when/where/why they came on the radar of LE and by extension, the ATF. That is important context as to justification for the raid.
There were a lot of guns out there the Davidians were shooters, has anyone ever gathered up and got a count on all the full auto guns that the Davidians had on hand?
All this of Koresh having his way with Children and other Mens wives never came out until the siege was well under way.
Agreed. ATF was there exclusively for the federal weapons issue, but the other stuff was confirmed by members themselves. That much does not appear to be psyops added by the gubment/media.
If they were a bunch of perverts, they were pretty darn quiet about it as far as I can tell.
They were a totally closed group on a big compound, so that much is no issue for me to believe. They were a straight up cult and the level of brain washing by his followers, even to this day, is impossible for me to fathom. Look at the 60 mins vid I posted. Dude was one of the few who survived and while I try to have some empathy for him, find it difficult.
That's the thing, this is the heart of the Baptist South and as far as I know, no one said Boo!
Even if I suspect something aint right, if this is a rural area and I call the Sherriff, that's who I want answering the call. Not the ATF.
If he was afraid to go out there and talk to them and called the ATF to carry his water, well that's a different subject. I'm pretty sure no one envisioned this going this far sideways.
To be sure. We'd have to track back the process as to how/why they even came on the radar of LE. Perhaps this series with explore that part. Worth looking into for context. It's not so easy to find exactly when/where/why they came on the radar of LE and by extension, the ATF. That is important context as to justification for the raid.
There were a lot of guns out there the Davidians were shooters, has anyone ever gathered up and got a count on all the full auto guns that the Davidians had on hand?
All this of Koresh having his way with Children and other Mens wives never came out until the siege was well under way.
Agreed. ATF was there exclusively for the federal weapons issue, but the other stuff was confirmed by members themselves. That much does not appear to be psyops added by the gubment/media.
If they were a bunch of perverts, they were pretty darn quiet about it as far as I can tell.
They were a totally closed group on a big compound, so that much is no issue for me to believe. They were a straight up cult and the level of brain washing by his followers, even to this day, is impossible for me to fathom. Look at the 60 mins vid I posted. Dude was one of the few who survived and while I try to have some empathy for him, find it difficult.
Averageman
03-24-23, 13:26
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTb8b6WXcMk
Go to 07:45 where it gets good.
john armond
03-24-23, 14:28
ATF said they fired the first shots of the altercation(at dogs) then said they didn’t.
ATF or FBI said there was a meth lab in the basement in order to get military assistance when they knew there wasn’t.
FBI said they didn’t use any pyrotechnics that could have started the fire, then a decade or so later said they did.
Take that into account along with the missing autopsies, entrance doors, and other evidence, and the fact they held onto davidian bodies for over a year (18 months I think) and then secretly buried them without notifying family members…I really distrust anything they say about Koresh. He may have been the biggest baby raper on the planet (not something the ATF investigates), but any evidence and accusations coming from the alphabet agencies would be immediately suspect even if 100% true.
That being said, Accusations from followers inside the compound carry more weight, and he was more than likely a sick SOB based on what some have said.
Averageman
03-24-23, 14:49
Well, Church groups are pretty common around here, so is shooting Guns. So I'm not sure what caused someone to become intrested in what these folks were up to in the first place. It's not rare for Church groups to even go shooting here.
If there was a lot of gossip going around, we didn't hear about it in my neck of the woods and I bet I could drive to Mt Carmel in twenty minutes.
It's just odd to me that essentially no one was talking about any of this until the Fed fired the first shots. Suddenly everyone is talking about what a bunch of Perv's everyone was. Around here there are more than a few old Biddies that would love to gossip about that, that would spread like wildfire.
Facts are facts, but when your the ATF and you've had well over a decade to change the "Facts", unfortunatly they are now the exact facts you want told.
ChattanoogaPhil
03-24-23, 15:54
Koresh was a child molester. He earned a dirt nap. But what has that got to with the federal raid on the church compound? Thousands of Catholic priests have been accused of sexually molesting tens of thousands of children. How many federal raids have there been on Catholic churches?
Sidneyious
03-24-23, 16:04
Koresh was a child molester. He earned a dirt nap. But what has that got to with the federal raid on the church compound? Thousands of Catholic priests have been accused of sexually molesting tens of thousands of children. How many federal raids have there been on Catholic churches?I'm still waiting for doctors to be charged with mutilation of boys at birth.
Guess in the meantime we can work on the story time shit.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTb8b6WXcMk
Go to 07:45 where it gets good.
He's interviewed extensively in the NF series in the OP also.
Maybe, maybe not.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1993/04/25/abuse-allegations-unproven/2dbff5d2-af97-4cbd-b170-9e8b3e4e4db7/
Years ago I watched one of the videos about Mena, AR drug running and Waco, TX came up as being part of all that. No mention of Branch Davidians in the video, but considering the fates of people in Arkansas who stumbled upon the drug operation that could be(or not be) a connection.
Averageman
03-24-23, 17:40
I see a Texas Sherriff getting a call about the Branch Davidians and ignoring it for a bit as if it's something out of a nosey busybody, but when pressed and he finally goes out to the property, he talks to David Koresh one on one and figures out just where the dog buries the bone.
Talk to a couple of kids, Men and Women, walk around the place get a good snap-shot and make an evaluation.
But under no circumstances do I see a Texas Sherriff calling in the ATF.
There is no way a local Sherriff is calling in ATF for help. I'm just saying if you plan on living here, calling in any alphabet agency is not going to happen, the damned Texas Rangers would be in there first.
More than likely the ATF used a number of other sources to gather enough evidence to head on out to Waco.
And as soon as they touched it they literrally burned it down.
Do you know why you can't really call David Koresh a pedophille? Because he never got his day in Court.
ATF said they fired the first shots of the altercation(at dogs) then said they didn’t.
ATF or FBI said there was a meth lab in the basement in order to get military assistance when they knew there wasn’t.
FBI said they didn’t use any pyrotechnics that could have started the fire, then a decade or so later said they did.
Take that into account along with the missing autopsies, entrance doors, and other evidence, and the fact they held onto davidian bodies for over a year (18 months I think) and then secretly buried them without notifying family members…I really distrust anything they say about Koresh. He may have been the biggest baby raper on the planet (not something the ATF investigates), but any evidence and accusations coming from the alphabet agencies would be immediately suspect even if 100% true.
That being said, Accusations from followers inside the compound carry more weight, and he was more than likely a sick SOB based on what some have said.
The proud tradition of corruption and cover-up at the highest levels of Federal government and their enforcers have been continued onward for the last 30 years! Yay! :rolleyes:
Koresh was a POS to be sure, but the Fed response was disgusting. They can, however, be proud that their fvcked-up tradition has been carried on diligently by today's Feds.
I watched this series. It was good. Documentary of "facts". But I liked the 6 part series from 2018 better. It was just called "Waco". It is more of a true story series, not so much a documentary. The director of the 2018 series tried to get you to "know" the Davidians who were inside.
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt6040674/
One of the things that both of these series said in common was that all this started as a single mentioning/reporting from a UPS driver who saw a grenade fall out of a box that was to be delivered to the compound. Kinda of reminds me of the Covid excuse, that one single person accidentally let the virus out of the lab in 2019. And we know the rest.
Anyway, he (or UPS) raised the issue directly to the feds and the investigation began. Keep in mind they (the feds) were already highly embarrassed from having recently been burned in an illegal guns investigation in Ruby Ridge. That included the huge mess up by Lon Houroshi. So given this opportunity, they wanted to "get it right this time". They began looking into all the previous UPS deliveries as well as deliveries to come to the Waco compound. Their investigation proved the mass of weapons and ammo that had been delivered there. So they were on to something. Turns out it was a lot more. Koresh was a nasty nasty f*cK. But the feds muffed this one up too.
Also, still not sure who shot first on Feb 28, 1993. No one is. They all point fingers. We will never know. Just like the story that a single UPS driver, still unnamed as far as I know, was the single tip they took to start this investigation and put under-covers inside and everything. We are just told what they want us to hear ever since Feb 28, 1993.
ChattanoogaPhil
03-25-23, 08:51
I'm still waiting for doctors to be charged with mutilation of boys at birth.
Guess in the meantime we can work on the story time shit.
Just a couple weeks ago Tennessee banned drag shows at public places and where children are present. Also banned so-called "gender affirming care" for minors.
In a world gone insane we're trying to hold on to a slice of sanity.
I'm fascinated by the Waco siege. This documentary is a gem that I saw years ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xr9pQ1pIbiU
I'd like to know if the guy was in fact a child molester. Hopefully none of the witnesses were in any way coerced into confession. A fortress with that shit going on doesn't make any sense. But fact is stranger than fiction.
Watched it this afternoon. Didn't change my opinion of the whole thing.
Most interesting was the HRT and the negotiators where not on the same page, both working on their own goals. The negotiators wanted them to come out and some justice, the HRT wanted revenge.
Most interesting was the HRT and the negotiators where not on the same page, both working on their own goals. The negotiators wanted them to come out and some justice, the HRT wanted revenge.
I have read where that disagreement almost came to blows. HRT eventually won out.
john armond
03-25-23, 21:08
I have read where that disagreement almost came to blows. HRT eventually won out.
HRT did the lights and noise and drove the tanks over the Davidians cars in the compound, specifically targeting Koresh’s antique car, all on their own just after the negotiators got a group of people out. Then one of the main (maybe the main) negotiator was removed from the scene because it was more important for him to go to training than stay on scene. No one else ever came out after he was sent packing, until the fire of course. I don’t think he was the only one on the negotiator team sent away either.
The evidence requested by congress that would supposedly show the ATF fired first all apparently disappeared. One of the main pieces was the doors. Hell, even all the close up pictures of the doors vanished from inventory along with the videos the ATF was taking of the activities at the front doors as the initial shots were fired. There were also several pages ripped out of the activity logs the ATF was keeping. I believe the initial news crew even hid their videotapes for fear they would be confiscated. One of these tapes shows someone in a helicopter shooting at least one person who was cleaning the inside of a chimney or tower as the incident started. The Davidian atty made a couple good points in his testimony. One was the Davidians knew the feds were coming and they could have lit them up while they were crammed inside the cattle cars but didn’t. The other was the ATF retreated across the open supposedly out of or nearly out of ammunition without being shot at.
There was also the husband of one of the people inside the building that was shot while attempting to get onto the compound from a back field to supposedly get to his family. That one is known to have happened. His wife even made a statement about in in one of the video messages. Others were supposedly shot as they were fleeing, but I’m not sure if that is true. Of course the FBI said they never shot anyone the entire time they were there. Kinda like the FBI agents said they never shot at Lavoy Finicum.
ETA…looks like there is actual video of the machine gun fire from FBI and/or SF into the building from behind the tanks and out of helicopters in one of the links above. And four empty shell casings from the sniper post that was manned by most of the Ruby Ridge sniper team. Of course the FBI said no shots were ever fired from there.
Just a couple weeks ago Tennessee banned drag shows at public places and where children are present. Also banned so-called "gender affirming care" for minors.
In a world gone insane we're trying to hold on to a slice of sanity.
Yup your state is doing the right thing..
Watched it this afternoon. Didn't change my opinion of the whole thing.
I learned some new shit that pissed me off. I trust a couple people who I used to extend some "benefit of the doubt" a lot less now.
I'm honestly amazed anyone got out of the building alive on that last day.
HRT did the lights and noise and drove the tanks over the Davidians cars in the compound, specifically targeting Koresh’s antique car, all on their own just after the negotiators got a group of people out. Then one of the main (maybe the main) negotiator was removed from the scene because it was more important for him to go to training than stay on scene. No one else ever came out after he was sent packing, until the fire of course. I don’t think he was the only one on the negotiator team sent away either.
The evidence requested by congress that would supposedly show the ATF fired first all apparently disappeared. One of the main pieces was the doors. Hell, even all the close up pictures of the doors vanished from inventory along with the videos the ATF was taking of the activities at the front doors as the initial shots were fired. There were also several pages ripped out of the activity logs the ATF was keeping. I believe the initial news crew even hid their videotapes for fear they would be confiscated. One of these tapes shows someone in a helicopter shooting at least one person who was cleaning the inside of a chimney or tower as the incident started. The Davidian atty made a couple good points in his testimony. One was the Davidians knew the feds were coming and they could have lit them up while they were crammed inside the cattle cars but didn’t. The other was the ATF retreated across the open supposedly out of or nearly out of ammunition without being shot at.
There was also the husband of one of the people inside the building that was shot while attempting to get onto the compound from a back field to supposedly get to his family. That one is known to have happened. His wife even made a statement about in in one of the video messages. Others were supposedly shot as they were fleeing, but I’m not sure if that is true. Of course the FBI said they never shot anyone the entire time they were there. Kinda like the FBI agents said they never shot at Lavoy Finicum.
They even went so far as to confiscate the Tarrant County Medical Examiner's video tape from his investigator who was on site. McClellan County didn't have an M.E. at the time, so the Tarrant County M.E. was tasked was doing the autopsies.
john armond
03-25-23, 22:41
I learned some new shit that pissed me off. I trust a couple people who I used to extend some "benefit of the doubt" a lot less now.
I'm honestly amazed anyone got out of the building alive on that last day.
But hey Chucky Schumer defended the ATF and FBI so everything has to be on the up and up.
I’m not sure anyone realized at the time how much this would impact the normal person on the Christian Right. A lot of average people who might have been very middle of the road, OK with Rooseveltism Republicans or Democrats started thinking “They put us in jail when we started our own schools. Now they burn these women and children alive. They weren’t just like us, but what says we won’t be next?”
I’m not sure anyone realized at the time how much this would impact the normal person on the Christian Right. A lot of average people who might have been very middle of the road, OK with Rooseveltism Republicans or Democrats started thinking “They put us in jail when we started our own schools. Now they burn these women and children alive. They weren’t just like us, but what says we won’t be next?”
Some of that while others(for lack of a better way to put it) were happy a competitor got knocked off.
I learned some new shit that pissed me off. I trust a couple people who I used to extend some "benefit of the doubt" a lot less now.
I'm honestly amazed anyone got out of the building alive on that last day.
I did too, but from both sides of the event. I had heard many times there was debate with the negotiators vs the HRT, hearing it in their own words confirming how bad it was, really pissed me off. The HRT made sure no one in that building was going to come out right after the negotiators had Koresh release 7 people. At the very least, I bet they could have gotten all the kids out at least given more time.
I didn't know the HRT was allowed to act so autonomously in such a situation. Two, I'm also surprised the HRT were not allowed to take Koresh out if the shot presented itself under those extremis situation and the number of people who would likely have lived if that POS was taken out. Or, very least, the sniper who had the perfect shot on Koresh could have said he had it and asked permission to take the shot.
Koresh is ultimately to blame, difficult for me to generate empathy for the adults dumb enough to follow that POS for a human, but those children is just heart breaking.
The event was something the gubment was not prepared to deal with and they did just about everything wrong, from the first contact, to the last, and the only good guys seemed to be that negotiating team. I don't necessary hold the behavior of the HRT against them per se as when you're them, direct action and getting to do what the spend all day training for. However, they should not have had that level of autonomy and he agent in charge should have come down on them hard to cut that BS out and he failed big time and controlling the situation, likely due to that other POS, Reno.
Finally, after that cluster, the gubment went full a$$ covering mode and just made it all look even worse to those watching. I wonder if they actually learned anything?
But hey Chucky Schumer defended the ATF and FBI so everything has to be on the up and up.
Some things to keep in mind are how people at the time were labeled as kooks for claiming there was a movement underway to normalize child molestation and the progress that movement has made along with how many people running the show at the time are still running it today.
I did too, but from both sides of the event. I had heard many times there was debate with the negotiators vs the HRT, hearing it in their own words confirming how bad it was, really pissed me off. The HRT made sure no one in that building was going to come out right after the negotiators had Koresh release 7 people. At the very least, I bet they could have gotten all the kids out at least given more time.
I didn't know the HRT was allowed to act so autonomously in such a situation. Two, I'm also surprised the HRT were not allowed to take Koresh out if the shot presented itself under those extremis situation and the number of people who would likely have lived if that POS was taken out. Or, very least, the sniper who had the perfect shot on Koresh could have said he had it and asked permission to take the shot.
Koresh is ultimately to blame, difficult for me to generate empathy for the adults dumb enough to follow that POS for a human, but those children is just heart breaking.
The event was something the gubment was not prepared to deal with and they did just about everything wrong, from the first contact, to the last, and the only good guys seemed to be that negotiating team. I don't necessary hold the behavior of the HRT against them per se as when you're them, direct action and getting to do what the spend all day training for. However, they should not have had that level of autonomy and he agent in charge should have come down on them hard to cut that BS out and he failed big time and controlling the situation, likely due to that other POS, Reno.
Finally, after that cluster, the gubment went full a$$ covering mode and just made it all look even worse to those watching. I wonder if they actually learned anything?
Koresh may well have been a pos, but unless you git to know him while alive you are basing your opinion on information that has at least some chance of being tainted by the group that "went full a$$ covering mode" if not outright fabricating the info.
The lesson that seems to have been learned(with the frame and receiver business being a recent example) is they can do anything they want.
Koresh may well have been a pos, but unless you git to know him while alive you are basing your opinion on information that has at least some chance of being tainted by the group that "went full a$$ covering mode" if not outright fabricating the info.
The lesson that seems to have been learned(with the frame and receiver business being a recent example) is they can do anything they want.
Taking much, if not most, directly from what I saw and heard from his own mouth, as well as the members who spoke about him and or the event itself.
Averageman
03-26-23, 08:48
Koresh may well have been a pos, but unless you git to know him while alive you are basing your opinion on information that has at least some chance of being tainted by the group that "went full a$$ covering mode" if not outright fabricating the info.
The lesson that seems to have been learned(with the frame and receiver business being a recent example) is they can do anything they want.
Taking much, if not most, directly from what I saw and heard from his own mouth, as well as the members who spoke about him and or the event itself.
And somewhere between those two extreams lies the truth.
I wonder at what point did they wonder... "Well, this went off the rails, looks like we need to kill all of them now," or "This will look like a sh*t show in Court, how do we get out of this?"
They certainly didn't want Koresh to live long enough for this to see the inside of a Court Room.
john armond
03-26-23, 09:08
I did too, but from both sides of the event. I had heard many times there was debate with the negotiators vs the HRT, hearing it in their own words confirming how bad it was, really pissed me off. The HRT made sure no one in that building was going to come out right after the negotiators had Koresh release 7 people. At the very least, I bet they could have gotten all the kids out at least given more time.
I didn't know the HRT was allowed to act so autonomously in such a situation. Two, I'm also surprised the HRT were not allowed to take Koresh out if the shot presented itself under those extremis situation and the number of people who would likely have lived if that POS was taken out. Or, very least, the sniper who had the perfect shot on Koresh could have said he had it and asked permission to take the shot.
Koresh is ultimately to blame, difficult for me to generate empathy for the adults dumb enough to follow that POS for a human, but those children is just heart breaking.
The event was something the gubment was not prepared to deal with and they did just about everything wrong, from the first contact, to the last, and the only good guys seemed to be that negotiating team. I don't necessary hold the behavior of the HRT against them per se as when you're them, direct action and getting to do what the spend all day training for. However, they should not have had that level of autonomy and he agent in charge should have come down on them hard to cut that BS out and he failed big time and controlling the situation, likely due to that other POS, Reno.
Finally, after that cluster, the gubment went full a$$ covering mode and just made it all look even worse to those watching. I wonder if they actually learned anything?
Koresh may have been crazy or a POS and some of his followers have said damming things, he said some crazy things, but some loved him and still do. The FBI sent video cameras in for them to make interviews and home movies. That is where all the footage from inside the compound came from during the siege…the FBI asked them to film themselves. Then after the FBI saw the footage they decided not to release it to the public at the time because they thought it would garner sympathy for the Davidians.
As far as everyone burning to death, the ATF was the forensic examiner for the scene so no conflict of interest there, right. They said the Davidians started the fire, and they may have. Their main determination was there were three fires started at the same time. Years later three .gov flashbangs were found in evidence. They were labeled “silencers” on the evidence sheet. They were recovered at the points of origin of the three fires. The flashbangs could/would have infighted the gas they had been pumping into the building for hours…after punching numerous holes into the building…on the windiest day of the year…while not allowing fire trucks to access the area.
Then there is the FLIR video of the muzzle flashes from .gov guns firing into the only exit once the fire started and people on the inside retreating back into the building. The coroner stated most of the people at the rear exit had been shot and the FBI said they never fired any shots at all so the Davidians must have all shot themselves piled up at the exit instead of leaving.
The local sheriff said the whole incident could have been solved before it started it they simply had him ask Koresh to meet with him prior to the raid. I believe he also went to the compound and inspected the guns before the ATF raid and said they were legal.
Koresh may have been a POS but give him his day in court. They never allowed that. Once the initial ATF ****up happened everything else that happened was to cover the .gov. They didn’t want to give him his chance to defend himself.
Taking much, if not most, directly from what I saw and heard from his own mouth, as well as the members who spoke about him and or the event itself.
So what all did you see and hear him and people who were there saying prior to February 1993?
If you saw and heard it after February 1993 it may be accurate or it may not be.
Rifleman_04
03-26-23, 17:29
I didn't know the HRT was allowed to act so autonomously in such a situation. Two, I'm also surprised the HRT were not allowed to take Koresh out if the shot presented itself under those extremis situation and the number of people who would likely have lived if that POS was taken out. Or, very least, the sniper who had the perfect shot on Koresh could have said he had it and asked permission to take the shot.
Take Koresh out for what? Just take the shot for what? Not honoring an illegitimate search warrant? Doesn’t matter what your opinion is of the man, the use of force wasn’t justified.
Imagine how many lives would have been saved had the ATF and FBI not been there in the first place. Guess the programming worked on you.
Koresh is ultimately to blame, difficult for me to generate empathy for the adults dumb enough to follow that POS for a human, but those children is just heart breaking.
I am no fan of Koresh, but Reno and the ATF/FBI are ultimately to blame. First if he was everything they said he was, they should have KNOWN not to pull most of the shit they pulled, they should have given priority to taking Koresh in custody OFF SITE. Christ even if they scooped him up at a gun show it would have been safer.
Taking a guy who is either seriously unstable and / or thinks he's god and just ****ing with him like nothing bad can happen was the worst thing since Ruby Ridge. If they wanted to save all of those kids, there were a dozen good ways to have accomplished that. If they wanted to rescue most of the followers, there were a few good ways to have accomplished that.
Instead the presented EXACTLY what he had been predicting all along and anyone with any remaining doubt became a true believer.
Even a basic, mildly retarded shift sergeant who is in charge of executing a high risk warrant and a heavily armed compound will realize it's safer to get somebody on the phone and say "we HAVE to inventory your firearms but we don't want to create a shootout, why don't you have your people assemble outside and you can meet with our investigators" is preferable to assaulting across about 100 yards of open field in the afternoon.
When your UC guy comes back to you and says "they KNOW you are coming" that doesn't mean "execute, execute, execute", that means you need a new plan. This was shades of the 1986 Miami shootout where people in charge really expected everyone to wet themselves when they heard "ATF put up your hands" and had the nerve to be shocked when people instead decided to fight.
This was a top down, shit show and people should have gone to jail.
I know HRT liked to see themselves as the Delta of rescue teams but IF negotiations are WORKING, don't **** up the works. In their stated mission of "hostage rescue" they completely failed and they did a lot to guarantee that failure.
Averageman
03-27-23, 02:47
I have to be honest with you, people here are nosy busybodies, because for the most part the ladies love to know stuff, but mostly the naughty bits.
Now I'm sure they have some sordid stories, but if the "Preacher" Koresh was didling the Ladies of the Congregation? Heaven Help Us, it would have been on the News in Dallas.
I tend to take a lot of after the fact charges, matter of factly. Koresh didn't get a fair day of trial, so there's that.
And then there's;
Now when you add that up, with Fire, Dead Women and Children, you better have a real Monster on your hands to blame all this on. And from all appearences things got handled quickly and not a lot of the Home Town Boy's were invited to observe the process.
I'm always suspicous of this stuff happening after the fact and I'm pretty sure the .gov could scare me enough to get me to lie until my dying day, so witnesses from within the survivors concerns me.
I dunno Man, I sat in the Motorpool doing recovery after a mission and listened to the News, but nothing prepared me to turn on the TV and see a building go up like that with folks still inside.
All this talk about saving kids and not many got saved that day did they?
As far as a "Witness' seeing a grenade? So how many people can tell a trainer from the real deal? Honestly, not many, they have an expectation of the old Pinapple Style Grenades, which there must be a million trainers out there for.
I have to be honest with you, people here are nosy busybodies, because for the most part the ladies love to know stuff, but mostly the naughty bits.
Now I'm sure they have some sordid stories, but if the "Preacher" Koresh was didling the Ladies of the Congregation? Heaven Help Us, it would have been on the News in Dallas.
I tend to take a lot of after the fact charges, matter of factly. Koresh didn't get a fair day of trial, so there's that.
And then there's;
Now when you add that up, with Fire, Dead Women and Children, you better have a real Monster on your hands to blame all this on. And from all appearences things got handled quickly and not a lot of the Home Town Boy's were invited to observe the process.
I'm always suspicous of this stuff happening after the fact and I'm pretty sure the .gov could scare me enough to get me to lie until my dying day, so witnesses from within the survivors concerns me.
I dunno Man, I sat in the Motorpool doing recovery after a mission and listened to the News, but nothing prepared me to turn on the TV and see a building go up like that with folks still inside.
All this talk about saving kids and not many got saved that day did they?
As far as a "Witness' seeing a grenade? So how many people can tell a trainer from the real deal? Honestly, not many, they have an expectation of the old Pinapple Style Grenades, which there must be a million trainers out there for.
Except for some survivors who were underage girls at the time, did confirm they had sex with him and were basically groomed by the group to see themselves as a "wife."
Folks tend to underestimate how closed off these cult groups are. Around here we get some of these polygamist, FLDS type freaks. You don't hear squat. The men will have interaction with the "outside world", but not the women or kids. They are some seriously F'ed up people but nobody really knows the extent until some of them get busted or the rare someone gets out and starts talking.
Of course it would be easy enough to blow that stuff up way out of proportion as well. Nobody really knows exactly how bad it is inside. It would be easy enough to swing public opinion toward or against a cult if the .gov put some work into it.
These nut jobs generally stay isolated to hide their sins from the world. That same isolation does make them vulnerable to being painted as the Boogeyman though.
Except for some survivors who were underage girls at the time, did confirm they had sex with him and were basically groomed by the group to see themselves as a "wife."
And that may have been true or it could have been part of the post raid grooming.
And that may have been true or it could have been part of the post raid grooming.
I'm gonna accept it as true given what we know about Koresh before he even popped up on fed radar. But as we've been saying all along the whole "Koresh did this, Koresh did that" is almost completely unrelated to what the ATF and FBI did.
In the end FBI HRT killed more kids than Koresh did. Doesn't make Koresh a good guy, it just makes Reno, ATF and HRT responsible for those deaths.
Folks tend to underestimate how closed off these cult groups are.
Even when they are out in the open, they can be pretty scary. We had a few extremist groups, and despite having a building in an urban area, they were a closed set. They only heard what they heard in church and everything else was the devil lying to them.
I'm gonna accept it as true given what we know about Koresh before he even popped up on fed radar. But as we've been saying all along the whole "Koresh did this, Koresh did that" is almost completely unrelated to what the ATF and FBI did.
In the end FBI HRT killed more kids than Koresh did. Doesn't make Koresh a good guy, it just makes Reno, ATF and HRT responsible for those deaths.
And it may be too, but what we are seeing from pre February 1993 has been edited post February 1993.
Same group tells a radically different tale of original intent than is found in the Federalist/Anti-Federalist Debates and their writings. I have to imagine if they could round up every copy and decided against destruction the deletions and additions would outweigh the text that was left alone.
joedirt199
03-28-23, 06:23
The fact that you have people abandoning their own families after seeing what koresh really was doing speaks volumes. Would like to hear from the mom that left after being made a new wife to koresh and what she has to say to her daughter that was forced stay by the dad. Wonder if they even still stay in touch.
fedupflyer
03-28-23, 16:40
Except for some survivors who were underage girls at the time, did confirm they had sex with him and were basically groomed by the group to see themselves as a "wife."
What is underage in this context?
It wasn't that long ago that you could get married at the age of 13 with parental consent.
I have only watched a couple of episodes so far and I haven't seen conformation amount him being a pedophile (from the folks in the compound).
What is underage in this context?
It wasn't that long ago that you could get married at the age of 13 with parental consent.
I have only watched a couple of episodes so far and I haven't seen conformation amount him being a pedophile (from the folks in the compound).
I think 14, but still a kiddie raper in my book.
I think 14, but still a kiddie raper in my book.
I recall some where younger then that. Either way, if you're an adult man and they are early teen (regardless of the freakin' state laws...), you're a POS. He was a POS all around.
Averageman
03-29-23, 08:41
I recall some where younger then that. Either way, if you're an adult man and they are early teen (regardless of the freakin' state laws...), you're a POS. He was a POS all around.
It's all in the context.
I think he was viewed as a Messiah or a Prophet. So,...
In some religious beliefs it's not uncommon for a young girl to take vows and bind herself to someone like this. Doesn't have to be physical, purely a deep emotion.
Mentally squint a bit and consider Catholic Nun's are they not wed to Jesus?
Now, if that swings the other way, Koresh would then be one of the most dispicable people to have ever walked the Earth.
A false Prophet who took sexual advantage of the underage children.
But here's the thing,
As bad as all of that was, it never saw the inside of a Courtroom, so we will never really know all of that will we?
My heart breaks for all of those kids.
All because of wanting to make some headlines and go back to Washington with a notch or two on their belts.
It's all in the context.
I think he was viewed as a Messiah or a Prophet. So,...
In some religious beliefs it's not uncommon for a young girl to take vows and bind herself to someone like this. Doesn't have to be physical, purely a deep emotion.
Mentally squint a bit and consider Catholic Nun's are they not wed to Jesus?
Now, if that swings the other way, Koresh would then be one of the most dispicable people to have ever walked the Earth.
A false Prophet who took sexual advantage of the underage children.
But here's the thing,
As bad as all of that was, it never saw the inside of a Courtroom, so we will never really know all of that will we?
My heart breaks for all of those kids.
All because of wanting to make some headlines and go back to Washington with a notch or two on their belts.
So here's the thing.
Nobody here is any kind of fan of Reno / ATF / HRT yet we all have about the same read on Koresh and it isn't because we support the government position or buy into their propaganda. It is because their is a history of Koresh from friends and followers, some who really did think he was jebus with glasses and based upon that information, it really does sound like he was a Class A POS.
But again, that doesn't justify the actions of Reno / ATF or HRT who created a bad situation and made it worse than anyone could possibly imagine.
fedupflyer
04-10-23, 18:02
I recall some where younger then that. Either way, if you're an adult man and they are early teen (regardless of the freakin' state laws...), you're a POS. He was a POS all around.
This is exactly why I bring this up.
Just the accusation of being a pedo turns the court of public opinion against the "perp".
Seems to me the 3 letter agencies like to put that out and have probably weaponized currently and in the past.
Based on what I knew about Waco (before the series) and Janet Reno's DoJ, I'll bet there was a lot of damage control in the media that was absolute lies.
No, I am not defending Koresh or pedos, just trying to get a better handle on gvment bullshitery.
Averageman
04-11-23, 06:14
This is exactly why I bring this up.
Just the accusation of being a pedo turns the court of public opinion against the "perp".
Seems to me the 3 letter agencies like to put that out and have probably weaponized currently and in the past.
Based on what I knew about Waco (before the series) and Janet Reno's DoJ, I'll bet there was a lot of damage control in the media that was absolute lies.
No, I am not defending Koresh or pedos, just trying to get a better handle on gvment bullshitery.
I would agree..
This is exactly why I bring this up.
Just the accusation of being a pedo turns the court of public opinion against the "perp".
Seems to me the 3 letter agencies like to put that out and have probably weaponized currently and in the past.
Based on what I knew about Waco (before the series) and Janet Reno's DoJ, I'll bet there was a lot of damage control in the media that was absolute lies.
No, I am not defending Koresh or pedos, just trying to get a better handle on gvment bullshitery.
Again, his own people confirmed that one, and I believe that's how they learned of it.
joedirt199
04-11-23, 09:09
I would like to hear more from the under cover they had in the compound.
Again, his own people confirmed that one, and I believe that's how they learned of it.
Maybe, but prior to the incident they had been investigated by Texas and nothing was found.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1993/04/25/abuse-allegations-unproven/2dbff5d2-af97-4cbd-b170-9e8b3e4e4db7/
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