View Full Version : Your experience on T2 Offset
aleftwich22
03-30-23, 04:59
Just looking to see if anyone is running this setup. Wondering what the experienced members think. I ran a search and the well is dry on this one. I'm thinking of running one alongside my P4xi, leaving it a higher mag. I'd rather cant the rifle than roll magnification I think.
It's for my main do it all 13.9.
TIA
Offset Reflex sights are completely useless. 12 o'clock Piggy-backed reflex sights are great for Passive NVG shooting.
Send it...
04-01-23, 21:23
I ran an offset T2 for years in 3 gun comps with a scope. Really nice, fast n fun. I'd say try it. It is effective.
titsonritz
04-01-23, 23:10
Unless you already have a T-2 you might want to consider an Acro.
I run an offset Holosun 508T on my SPR and have been satisfied with the setup. However, unless you already have the T2 I would look at something a little smaller.
Holosun has an upcoming enclosed RDS that looks like a shorter version of a T2, but with a 20mm tube and a 509t footprint. Only weighs 2.4 oz and has an updated version of their multi light sensor auto brightness, which has been excellent by all accounts. Inexpensive to boot, and if it turns out to be as durable as their other stuff, it'll be a sure winner.
Arisaka makes two plates that work with their offset mount to fit it. A cowitness height and lower third. Think I'm going to get one of the new Holosuns when they start shipping, buy the Arisaka plate, and put it on my SPR. Have a spare Arisaka mount sitting in the spare parts bin anyway.
john armond
04-03-23, 06:42
Holosun has an upcoming enclosed RDS that looks like a shorter version of a T2, but with a 20mm tube and a 509t footprint. Only weighs 2.4 oz and has an updated version of their multi light sensor auto brightness, which has been excellent by all accounts. Inexpensive to boot, and if it turns out to be as durable as their other stuff, it'll be a sure winner.
Arisaka makes two plates that work with their offset mount to fit it. A cowitness height and lower third. Think I'm going to get one of the new Holosuns when they start shipping, buy the Arisaka plate, and put it on my SPR. Have a spare Arisaka mount sitting in the spare parts bin anyway.
Sorry for the hijack, but has Holosun stopped doing their ACSS Vulcan reticle? I couldn't find it with the search function on their site.
Sorry for the hijack, but has Holosun stopped doing their ACSS Vulcan reticle? I couldn't find it with the search function on their site.
I think that is a Primary Arms feature.
@georgeib , that seems like an interesting optic.
I think that is a Primary Arms feature.
@georgeib , that seems like an interesting optic.
It is Holosun built but only available through PA.
https://www.primaryarms.com/red-dot-sights/with-acss
Offset Reflex sights are completely useless. 12 o'clock Piggy-backed reflex sights are great for Passive NVG shooting.
This would be my humble opinion as well. As soon as the dot moves off to the side you start to limit its us in certain environments
Not a fan of offset sights either. I'd damned sure be reluctant to take the price hit on an aimpoint, and then throw it into a sub par configuration.
This would be my humble opinion as well. As soon as the dot moves off to the side you start to limit its us in certain environments
I'm interested in more explanation here. Is that the case even if mounted "over bore"? I've never used any offset sight configuration, but have been thinking about it.
I'm interested in more explanation here. Is that the case even if mounted "over bore"? I've never used any offset sight configuration, but have been thinking about it.
Well it's been a few months since this thread was open, but the reason I went with a "Piggy back RDS" of "Top Dot" over a 45 degree mount is because I started to really work with barricades and inside rooms where
1) you are switching from your rifle from your right to your left shoulder and when the dot is mounted on top I still have a good natural position to keep the rifle in and both eyes open looking at the dot.
2) When I have taken classes with people with 45 degree mounts I have noticed that under pressure when people let go of their rifle either to go to their secondary (pistol) or hands on with a ladder or obstacle the rifle and the 45 degree mount can hit or snag on gear. Further more, when they use their primary optic in an awkward position this further puts the 45 degree mount into the dirt or bangs against a barricade, where as with a top mounted dot, you just have to deal with the further height over bore, which at least to me is easier to deal with.
I tried it, nope, I'm too old. The T2 is on a buddys gun now. The LPVO went down the road.
How well would a 12 o'clock piggy-back mount work with a scope other than an LPVO? I've never tried it, but I can't imagine it would work very well with an HPVO, just because of how large the objective end of the scope is. Thoughts? For example this is my SPR with a Nightforce NX8 2.5-20x50 and offset Holosun 508T. If I went with a 12 o'clock piggy-back mount wouldn't the 50mm objective block the view of the Holosun?
https://i.imgur.com/8kVJ2AT.jpg
I'm interested in more explanation here. Is that the case even if mounted "over bore"? I've never used any offset sight configuration, but have been thinking about it.
Any type of Mini Reflex sight, either 12 O'Clock or 45 offset does nothing for up close aiming. It is a gimmick. The 12 O'clock position on a LPVO or a High Powered scope is great for Passive NV shooting. If you actually know what you are doing and how to shoot a Reflex sight, you should be able to engage close targets with a scope on MAX power.
Simply open both eyes. the dominate eye will see the recital and the NON-Dominate eye will see the target. Your Brain will "blend" the image and you will see the recital on the target. Is it an easy thing to do, no it is not. It takes time and practice. I proved this point with some friends. Had my SPR out with a Leupold MK 5 3.6-18 scope on it. Put is on 18x and ran out 25 yard Steel course.
It is the same concept of putting a PVS-14 on your NON-Dominate eye and using a reflex sight on your Dominate eye. Your Brain will "blend" the image and you will see the recital on the target and in Night Vision.
Defaultmp3
05-26-23, 17:21
Any type of Mini Reflex sight, either 12 O'Clock or 45 offset does nothing for up close aiming. It is a gimmick. The 12 O'clock position on a LPVO or a High Powered scope is great for Passive NV shooting. If you actually know what you are doing and how to shoot a Reflex sight, you should be able to engage close targets with a scope on MAX power.
Simply open both eyes. the dominate eye will see the recital and the NON-Dominate eye will see the target. Your Brain will "blend" the image and you will see the recital on the target. Is it an easy thing to do, no it is not. It takes time and practice. I proved this point with some friends. Had my SPR out with a Leupold MK 5 3.6-18 scope on it. Put is on 18x and ran out 25 yard Steel course.
It is the same concept of putting a PVS-14 on your NON-Dominate eye and using a reflex sight on your Dominate eye. Your Brain will "blend" the image and you will see the recital on the target and in Night Vision.Molon showed that this is not necessarily a viable technique, given that everyone's eyes are different, and phoria can cause serious shift in perceived POA/POI, with a serious degradation of both accuracy and precision. See: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?34549-The-Effects-of-Phoria-When-Using-the-ACOG-as-an-Occluded-Eye-Gunsight; several other posters in that thread, including folks like Leuba, Santoro, MM, etc. also noted this issue.
Might work okay if you're just trying to hit an IPSC at close range, but if you need any kind of precise hit, you'll have to make sure that your eyes are built for it. While this method can work quite well for some folks, for others it seems like it's not particularly viable.
Molon showed that this is not necessarily a viable technique, given that everyone's eyes are different, and phoria can cause serious shift in perceived POA/POI, with a serious degradation of both accuracy and precision. See: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?34549-The-Effects-of-Phoria-When-Using-the-ACOG-as-an-Occluded-Eye-Gunsight; several other posters in that thread, including folks like Leuba, Santoro, MM, etc. also noted this issue.
Might work okay if you're just trying to hit an IPSC at close range, but if you need any kind of precise hit, you'll have to make sure that your eyes are built for it. While this method can work quite well for some folks, for others it seems like it's not particularly viable.I recently watched a test on a timer where a bunch of different methods were tested. The occluded eye technique came in dead last as I recall. Can it be done? Sure. Is it slower than every other method (LVPO on 1x, offset RDS, piggyback RDS)? Yes.
Simply open both eyes. the dominate eye will see the recital and the NON-Dominate eye will see the target. Your Brain will "blend" the image and you will see the recital on the target. Is it an easy thing to do, no it is not. It takes time and practice. I proved this point with some friends. Had my SPR out with a Leupold MK 5 3.6-18 scope on it. Put is on 18x and ran out 25 yard Steel course.
Phoria sux.
How well would a 12 o'clock piggy-back mount work with a scope other than an LPVO? I've never tried it, but I can't imagine it would work very well with an HPVO, just because of how large the objective end of the scope is. Thoughts? For example this is my SPR with a Nightforce NX8 2.5-20x50 and offset Holosun 508T. If I went with a 12 o'clock piggy-back mount wouldn't the 50mm objective block the view of the Holosun?
There is definitely a mount for that. Repitila probably has a solution, but I have seen many a Piggy back on a 2-10x Trijicon Credo. Not saying it will work perfectly with a HPVO like your nice NF NX8 but most likely someone has thought of a solution.
It is the same concept of putting a PVS-14 on your NON-Dominate eye and using a reflex sight on your Dominate eye. Your Brain will "blend" the image and you will see the recital on the target and in Night Vision.
But this is partly why I would say that a Reflex sight is not a gimmick, because you now have an optic you can utilize with night vision other than utilizing a laser, which I would guess as more and more people will have as the years go on. I'm sure that training would make it much quicker on a 3.6-18x, but at the same time wouldn't that also apply to a offset dot? Knowing that you can switch between 4,6, or 8x and 1x with minimum head movement and more peripheral view on a red dot then on your 18x.
There is definitely a mount for that. Repitila probably has a solution, but I have seen many a Piggy back on a 2-10x Trijicon Credo. Not saying it will work perfectly with a HPVO like your nice NF NX8 but most likely someone has thought of a solution.
Wouldn't it be cartoonishly high?
Molon showed that this is not necessarily a viable technique, given that everyone's eyes are different, and phoria can cause serious shift in perceived POA/POI, with a serious degradation of both accuracy and precision. See: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?34549-The-Effects-of-Phoria-When-Using-the-ACOG-as-an-Occluded-Eye-Gunsight; several other posters in that thread, including folks like Leuba, Santoro, MM, etc. also noted this issue.
Might work okay if you're just trying to hit an IPSC at close range, but if you need any kind of precise hit, you'll have to make sure that your eyes are built for it. While this method can work quite well for some folks, for others it seems like it's not particularly viable.
Down syndrome also causes issues with shooting well.........
I am not talking about people that have issues. Just normal people. If you are missing your left eye then you also can't do this. ....... Come on man..... I know it is the internet, but it doesn't mean that you have to base everything on the exception instead of the Norm.
Wouldn't it be cartoonishly high?
No, I have that exact same set up and it is fine. I will take some pic and post them.
But this is partly why I would say that a Reflex sight is not a gimmick, because you now have an optic you can utilize with night vision other than utilizing a laser, which I would guess as more and more people will have as the years go on. I'm sure that training would make it much quicker on a 3.6-18x, but at the same time wouldn't that also apply to a offset dot? Knowing that you can switch between 4,6, or 8x and 1x with minimum head movement and more peripheral view on a red dot then on your 18x.
I know, I agree with that..... at the 12 O'clok position it is great...... for passive NVG shooting. I do not even turn on my RMRs during daylight unless I am zeroing them.
Wouldn't it be cartoonishly high?
Yes, but it works. Not trying to deny the downsides, just saying that this is the trade off.
I know, I agree with that..... at the 12 O'clok position it is great...... for passive NVG shooting. I do not even turn on my RMRs during daylight unless I am zeroing them.
Totally agree, I just find them also decent for 50-75 yards and in as well, you probably have more experience then I do, but I really like that Donut reticle on my 509T for quick acquisition, verse a busy Christmas tree reticle on 8+x for quick work.
Defaultmp3
05-27-23, 00:21
Down syndrome also causes issues with shooting well.........
I am not talking about people that have issues. Just normal people. If you are missing your left eye then you also can't do this. ....... Come on man..... I know it is the internet, but it doesn't mean that you have to base everything on the exception instead of the Norm.The point is that phoria is not an uncommon issue. Guesses on the prevalence of phoria are as high as 50%; even lower ranges are usually over 20%. If a quarter to half of the population doesn't work well for occluded eye/BAC, then I don't think it's proper to call the use of offset/piggyback RDSes as gimmicks just because an alternative method works for you.
As Leuba said in the linked thread:
I have never recommended the use of the ACOG as an OEG, mostly because of this distinct shift we see in about 50% of shooters to varying degrees and distances of effect. I use the OEG technique only as a method to get the shooters into shooting with both eyes open.
Question - can you close either eye independently, i.e. wink? I can only close my non-dominant eye. I also virtually always shoot with both eyes open. Maybe I have Downs syndrome.
Andy
Many times you will find the front lens cover closed on my Aimpoints, when going from low light inside to outside in the bright sun, I never have to adjust brightness of the dot, it always looks the same. Both eyes open of course.
Question - can you close either eye independently, i.e. wink? I can only close my non-dominant eye. I also virtually always shoot with both eyes open. Maybe I have Downs syndrome.
Andy
Well, you are in Alabama........ :jester:
Have you tried to patch your dominate eye? It could just simply be that you never did it and did not develop the muscles that would allow you to do it.
The point is that phoria is not an uncommon issue. Guesses on the prevalence of phoria are as high as 50%; even lower ranges are usually over 20%. If a quarter to half of the population doesn't work well for occluded eye/BAC, then I don't think it's proper to call the use of offset/piggyback RDSes as gimmicks just because an alternative method works for you.
As Leuba said in the linked thread:
If a quarter to half of the population is Obese does that make it right? 42% of the US Population is Obese, while about 30.7% are overweight. Overall, more than two-thirds of U.S. adults in the United States are overweight or have obesity. . So does that mean fat people are doing it right because they are 2/3 of the population? If that is the case then I am glad to be in the minority doing the right thing.
As I said, it is a gimmick that 3 Gun people started about 20 years ago...... If you are not physically able to do it the proper way then you need to do whatever it takes to allow you to achieve the goal. If you are physically able to to it the proper way, and CHOOSE to do some weird stuff then it is a Gimmick. I am using the correct method. The Alt Method is the "gimmick".
I am not attacking you, I am simply stating how it should be done and if for some reason you are not physically capable of doing it the correct way then the ALT Method is fine. But don't say that the Alt Method is the correct way to do something because you can't do it the other way. I can use both methods and I have been trained and understand the value of the proper way.
After trying many different LPVO scope mounts brands and heights and red dot placement locations, what works as the best compromise *for me*, is a Badger 1.700" scope mount and their 1.930" 35 degree J-Arm offset red dot mount. I run a Kahles K16i G4B scope with a offset Aimpoint ACRO. The ACRO is tucked in nice and easily clears the scopes windage turret for a full view and when rotating the rifle I still have a decent cheek weld but with just a little more heads up sighting position. Below are a few links with more info on the subject.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hpJQcX28W0&t=14s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wglriyXF_Vk&pp=ygUecmlkbGluZSBkZWZlbnNlIG9mZnNldCByZWQgZG90
After trying many different LPVO scope mounts brands and heights and red dot placement locations, what works as the best compromise *for me*, is a Badger 1.700" scope mount and their 1.930" 35 degree J-Arm offset red dot mount. I run a Kahles K16i G4B scope with a offset Aimpoint ACRO. The ACRO is tucked in nice and easily clears the scopes windage turret for a full view and when rotating the rifle I still have a decent cheek weld but with just a little more heads up sighting position. Below are a few links with more info on the subject.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hpJQcX28W0&t=14s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wglriyXF_Vk&pp=ygUecmlkbGluZSBkZWZlbnNlIG9mZnNldCByZWQgZG90
Does the resulting geometry with that mount and j-arm put the optic "over-bore"? It seems like it would be off. Just curious if you have noticed any issues with that. Did you choose that combo to deal with turret clearance? Why not the 1.70 J-arm with the 1.70 scope mount?
Any type of Mini Reflex sight, either 12 O'Clock or 45 offset does nothing for up close aiming. It is a gimmick.
Specifically as a backup? or do you mean that even as a primary optic a mini reflex sight is a gimmick?
Specifically as a backup? or do you mean that even as a primary optic a mini reflex sight is a gimmick?
Having a Mini Reflex sight with another optic for "close up targets" is a gimmick. Having a Mini Reflex sight at the 12 o'clock for passive night vision shooting is light.
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