View Full Version : 16" Barrel Recommendations for Solid Copper Bullets
Last year I acquired a substantial amount of Black Hills GMX 70gr and Barnes VOR TX 70gr. After testing both rounds in a 16" 1 in 8 barrel and a couple 11.5" 1 in 7 barrels, I'm less than impressed with the accuracy I've been getting.
I suspect it has a lot to do with the length and hardness of the Hornady and Barnes copper bullets making them difficult to properly stabilize in slower twist or shorter barrels. I also wonder if the rifling is getting a sufficient purchase on the harder material. So I'm looking at building a 16" or 18" SPR type upper with a 1 in 7 twist barrel in an effort to sufficiently stabilize these things. I suppose I could be convinced to go to a 20", but I still want to be able to carry this rifle extensively, if need be, so weight is a consideration. And it will be suppressed which adds substantial length and weight way up front.
Some of the barrels I've been considering are the SPR barrels from WOA. And possibly a Black Hole Weaponry barrel if I can convince them to build me one with their newly developed "claw" rifling which is supposed to work well specifically on all copper bullets. I have one of their standard polygonal barrels in a 308 AR build, and I'm pleased with its performance, FWIW.
Any ideas, or experiences getting better accuracy with all copper bullets? Barrel recommendations? Will a 223 Wylde barrel be a hindrance to these 5.56 rounds?
I don't know how much this applies to your situation, but the 20" WOA barrel I've been playing with is as accurate as I can hold it from a bipod. No personal experience with the BHW barrels. My only monolithic bullet experience is with Barnes 110gr in 300 BO, and they were remarkably easy to work with.
Any ideas, or experiences getting better accuracy with all copper bullets?
If it were me, I'd pull the homo bullets and sub some 69 RMRs. Then sell the copper things to someone else. (I get than not everyone had the tools to pull bullets)
I damned sure wouldn't build a gun around that stuff.
If it were me, I'd pull the homo bullets and sub some 69 RMRs. Then sell the copper things to someone else. (I get than not everyone had the tools to pull bullets)
I damned sure wouldn't build a gun around that stuff.True. There's always that option. It might be that there's no way to save these things. I do like the idea of them however, their terminal ballistics and barrier blindness. There's also that I like finding answers to questions no one is asking...
I do want to solve this "problem", but at the same time I don't want to waste a bunch of time and money on a wild goose chase. Still, I don't have a precision 223/5.56 so if I do end up building this upper, it'll have it's place regardless of whether I 86 this ammo or get it to work.
I would not take advice from markm. He has an opinion on everything and is quite often wrong. What are the barrel brands that you have tested the loads with, what accuracy were you getting, and what accuracy are you looking for?
If Blackstone arms has the ARP 16" 3r barrels mine has done great with the 70gr tsx. I also have a 11.5 and 16" Triarc trac barrels that are sub moa with tsx. If you intend to suppress it the Triarc is the way I would go.
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I would not take advice from markm. He has an opinion on everything and is quite often wrong. What are the barrel brands that you have tested the loads with, what accuracy were you getting, and what accuracy are you looking for?
Is there a law against having an opinion? If so I think it should also apply to your opinion.
My 16” is a 1:7 Wilson Combat fluted barrel. Easily. sub MOA ( five shot groups at 100yds) with anything from the 40gr varmint bullets, 62 and 70gr Barnes copper bullets, to the Barnes 85gr OTM BT. I think it is a Wylde chamber, but am not certain.
I have not used all copper bullets, but the rainier 16"ultramatch mod2 has been a great barrel and has a 1:7.5" twist rate. Right around 30oz with flutes.
Last year I acquired a substantial amount of Black Hills GMX 70gr and Barnes VOR TX 70gr. After testing both rounds in a 16" 1 in 8 barrel and a couple 11.5" 1 in 7 barrels, I'm less than impressed with the accuracy I've been getting.
I would not be inclined to buy a particular barrel to shoot a particular bullet like that unless I had several barrels full of them and they were given to me for free.
You should not be having to build a special rifle / carbine just to be able to get good hits on paper with a crap bullet.
I would not take advice from markm. He has an opinion on everything and is quite often wrong. What are the barrel brands that you have tested the loads with, what accuracy were you getting, and what accuracy are you looking for?
Speaking for myself, even though I don't always agree with @markm, I often do, and I certainly enjoy his opinions. And his no bullshit approach. He and @DG23 bring up an excellent point, IMO.
To answer your thoughtful question, my Wylde chambered 1 in 8 is a 16" PWS that can do MOAish with IMI 77gr, and shoots Slovakian m193 at ~2.5-3 MOA. With the Black Hills and Barnes it was shooting 4-5 MOA. The 11.5" barrels are both Sionics, and I wasn't expecting a lot from them, but still got 4-5 MOA, whereas other stuff is approximately half that.
If Blackstone arms has the ARP 16" 3r barrels mine has done great with the 70gr tsx. I also have a 11.5 and 16" Triarc trac barrels that are sub moa with tsx. If you intend to suppress it the Triarc is the way I would go.
Thank you for that info. I looked and Triarc is backordered on the 16" barrels. I wonder if their unique rifling is making the difference with these copper bullets. What loading were your 70gr TSX?
My 16” is a 1:7 Wilson Combat fluted barrel. Easily. sub MOA ( five shot groups at 100yds) with anything from the 40gr varmint bullets, 62 and 70gr Barnes copper bullets, to the Barnes 85gr OTM BT. I think it is a Wylde chamber, but am not certain.
Thanks for that. What loading were your Barnes 70 and 85gr? I ask because the ammo I have is all 5.56 and as the bullets are so long, and I wonder if it would have insufficient jump to the lands wiyth a Wylde vs a true 5.56 NATO chamber.
I have not used all copper bullets, but the rainier 16"ultramatch mod2 has been a great barrel and has a 1:7.5" twist rate. Right around 30oz with flutes.
Thank you. I'll check that one out too.
I would not be inclined to buy a particular barrel to shoot a particular bullet like that unless I had several barrels full of them and they were given to me for free.
You should not be having to build a special rifle / carbine just to be able to get good hits on paper with a crap bullet.
You bring up a very good point, as @markm did. I did end up with a few thousand rounds at sub 50¢ per, so I couldn't pass them up. Certainly not a barrels full, but enough to satisfy my precision-ish AR shooting for a few years. I tend to go through a fair amount of m193 at a rapid ROF, but do enjoy going out to the 700 yard range a handful of times per year. Enough so, that I have been considering a more precision orientated upper (that will inevitably grow a lower, I know) for several years.
Not being able to satisfactorily shoot the ammo I bought doesn't preclude me from using in my loadouts for my short barrels, but I'd still like to be able to shoot it more precisely when/if necessary. And this adds impetus to my desire for a SPR type upper. Which can still be used to shoot other ammo, so it's not like I'm JUST building an upper/rifle around a particular bullet. As @SBRSarge pointed out, he were able to shoot several bullets accurately including all copper with his Wilson barrel. Ultimately, that's exactly what I'm after.
I assembled a 16” Criterion barreled gun a few yrs back. It has been used at the Farm for predator control and shooting occasional Whitetail.
It shoots the Black Hills GMX 70gr quite well.
Add: it hasa Wylde chamber.
I assembled a 16” Criterion barreled gun a few yrs back. It has been used at the Farm for predator control and shooting occasional Whitetail.
It shoots the Black Hills GMX 70gr quite well.
Add: it hasa Wylde chamber.
Interesting! And the Criterions are 1 in 8 IIRC. What kind of accuracy were you getting?
Interesting! And the Criterions are 1 in 8 IIRC. What kind of accuracy were you getting?
7/8”-1 1/8” for 5 rds. This with an old 1-6X Accupoint.
More glass may have produced better results, but the 1-6X fit with purpose and expected range.
7/8”-1 1/8” for 5 rds. This with an old 1-6X Accupoint.
More glass may have produced better results, but the 1-6X fit with purpose and expected range.
I'd be pleased with that. Those numbers are, from what I read, about as good as what one expect from this ammo. I'd be pleased with less than 1.5 MOA consistently. 4-5 MOA is just not right.
Barnes' website specifies a 1:8 twist rate, so if your 1:8 barrel doesn't gives acceptable results with them, it's not due to the twist rate.
All barrels are individuals, so just because one barrel likes a particular ammo, is absolutely no indicator that one you buy will also.
Read some of the many other barrels requesting recommendations for SPR barrels, and it shouldn't be too hard to come up with a short list to look for. If you find one from your short list in stock at a decent price, then buy it and hope it works out.
I've also never looked for a barrel to pair with a particular bullet.
Hi Georgeib,
I don’t roll my own so all of mine are factory loads. I’ve done the Barnes and Asym 70gr, and the 85 gr OTM BT is a 5.56 Barnes load.
I’ve found the Barnes loads to sometimes be a bit hotter than other loads with the same bullet, and the Barnes loads shoot every bit as tight. I ended up settling on either Barnes or Black Hills 62 tsx, both is 5.56 for general use. Both shoot MOA in my AR.
I get 2992 fps and moa with the Barnes 5.56 62 g loads out of the 16” Wilson barrel. I’ll take that any day! Out of the 10.5 Noveske I get 2638 fps.
Both barrels are suppressed. The 16” has a SIG 556 direct thread and the Noveske SBR has a SiCo Omega.
I just checked. My barrel is a 5.56.
BufordTJustice
04-22-23, 16:10
Data point: my 16" KAC SR15 mod2 barrel shoots my Hornady 70gr GMX TAP (5.56) at just under a minute. But, it shoots basically *everything* well.
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I’ve found the Barnes loads to sometimes be a bit hotter than other loads with the same bullet, and the Barnes loads shoot every bit as tight. I ended up settling on either Barnes or Black Hills 62 tsx, both is 5.56 for general use. Both shoot MOA in my AR.
I get 2992 fps and moa with the Barnes 5.56 62 g loads out of the 16” Wilson barrel. I’ll take that any day! Out of the 10.5 Noveske I get 2638 fps.
Both barrels are suppressed. The 16” has a SIG 556 direct thread and the Noveske SBR has a SiCo Omega.
Point of comparison, unsuppressed the BHA 5.56 62 TSX is typically ~2900fps from 16" barrels. So your Barnes-loaded is +100fps with the suppressor boost.
It could be your individual barrels, or your suppressor, or probably the reason that ammo was a bargain.
I have an 1/8 that shoot a little brown tip well enough, but I’d pick 1/7 if that’s what I planned to shoot.
Just pick a good 1/7 barrel for a more precision/SPR type build. Nothing special needed to shoot brown tip, no need to go 20” or worry about chamber minutiae.
Point of comparison, unsuppressed the BHA 5.56 62 TSX is typically ~2900fps from 16" barrels. So your Barnes-loaded is +100fps with the suppressor boost.
Yet another reason to love suppressors!
You bring up a very good point, as @markm did. I did end up with a few thousand rounds at sub 50¢ per, so I couldn't pass them up. Certainly not a barrels full, but enough to satisfy my precision-ish AR shooting for a few years. I tend to go through a fair amount of m193 at a rapid ROF, but do enjoy going out to the 700 yard range a handful of times per year. Enough so, that I have been considering a more precision orientated upper (that will inevitably grow a lower, I know) for several years.
I bought a small pile of SS109 pills once and tried them (new bullets only / loading my own ammo) in several precision barrels. I tried multiple different powders and loadings out of multiple different barrels. Chambers ranging from real .223 match to honked out 5.56 Colt.
Was a complete and utter waste of time and barrel life that only proved one thing to me. That being that a crappy bullet does not somehow become a 'precision / match grade' bullet just because you send it downrange out of an otherwise good barrel. A turd bullet is still a turd bullet at the end of the day.
I still got a few k of those SS109 pills left. Blaster pills for beater barrels is the only reason I kept what I did.
Would had more fun shooting real match grade pills and spent less time on load development to get to 'good' results on paper.
constructor
04-23-23, 08:14
Last year I acquired a substantial amount of Black Hills GMX 70gr and Barnes VOR TX 70gr. After testing both rounds in a 16" 1 in 8 barrel and a couple 11.5" 1 in 7 barrels, I'm less than impressed with the accuracy I've been getting.
I suspect it has a lot to do with the length and hardness of the Hornady and Barnes copper bullets making them difficult to properly stabilize in slower twist or shorter barrels. I also wonder if the rifling is getting a sufficient purchase on the harder material. So I'm looking at building a 16" or 18" SPR type upper with a 1 in 7 twist barrel in an effort to sufficiently stabilize these things. I suppose I could be convinced to go to a 20", but I still want to be able to carry this rifle extensively, if need be, so weight is a consideration. And it will be suppressed which adds substantial length and weight way up front.
Some of the barrels I've been considering are the SPR barrels from WOA. And possibly a Black Hole Weaponry barrel if I can convince them to build me one with their newly developed "claw" rifling which is supposed to work well specifically on all copper bullets. I have one of their standard polygonal barrels in a 308 AR build, and I'm pleased with its performance, FWIW.
Any ideas, or experiences getting better accuracy with all copper bullets? Barrel recommendations? Will a 223 Wylde barrel be a hindrance to these 5.56 rounds?
Don't know if you know or it has been said but solid copper bullets shoot best when the bore has been cleaned to the bare metal and then you shoot that brand and only that brand.
Don't know if you know or it has been said but solid copper bullets shoot best when the bore has been cleaned to the bare metal and then you shoot that brand and only that brand.Thank you. I'd been considering this. Will break out the Boretech Eliminator and clean out the barrels and try again.
I've lost track of the objective here, OP and the problem we're trying to solve.
Reset: Copper solids vs conventional jacketed is just a bullet construction attribute. Copper solids are some of the best around for certain tasks. Some barrels like some bullets and loadings better than others, particular barrels and some runs of them have personalities. 50-70gr will fly in SBRs to SPRs, in 1/7 or 1/8, when loaded well. Copper fouling isn't the thing many think. Shoot and see? I think we're lost in the weeds.
I've lost track of the objective here, OP and the problem we're trying to solve.
Reset: Copper solids vs conventional jacketed is just a bullet construction attribute. Copper solids are some of the best around for certain tasks. Some barrels like some bullets and loadings better than others, particular barrels and some runs of them have personalities. 50-70gr will fly in SBRs to SPRs, in 1/7 or 1/8, when loaded well. Copper fouling isn't the thing many think. Shoot and see? I think we're lost in the weeds.My objective is mainly to pick an excellent SPR type 16" barrel with a 1 in 7 twist, which will shoot MOA or better, and which will give me excellent accuracy with long all copper bullets while producing a gyroscopic stability factor of over 1.5.
Some folks are getting good accuracy with 1 in 8 barrels, but because this only gives a stability factor of 1.33, will still have yaw affecting BC and precision at longer distances. Besides trying to pick a good 1 in 7 barrel, I also wonder how much a 5.56 vs Wylde chamber will affect accuracy in 5.56 loaded ammunition. Specifically the Barnes 70gr tsx and the BH 70gr gmx.
I've lost track of the objective here, OP and the problem we're trying to solve.
Reset: Copper solids vs conventional jacketed is just a bullet construction attribute. Copper solids are some of the best around for certain tasks. Some barrels like some bullets and loadings better than others, particular barrels and some runs of them have personalities. 50-70gr will fly in SBRs to SPRs, in 1/7 or 1/8, when loaded well. Copper fouling isn't the thing many think. Shoot and see? I think we're lost in the weeds.
Wishing I had a “like” button…..
I did end up with a few thousand rounds at sub 50¢ per, so I couldn't pass them up.
Could the problem not be the barrels or bullets, but the loaded rounds themselves?
Have you tried these bullets loaded by a different manufacturer or at least lot?
How did you acquire them for a 1/3 of what they normally cost? Had someone else already decided they were not accurate and dumped them?
Could the problem not be the barrels or bullets, but the loaded rounds themselves?
Have you tried these bullets loaded by a different manufacturer or at least lot?
How did you acquire them for a 1/3 of what they normally cost? Had someone else already decided they were not accurate and dumped them?
Valid point well worth considering.
Could the problem not be the barrels or bullets, but the loaded rounds themselves?
Have you tried these bullets loaded by a different manufacturer or at least lot?
How did you acquire them for a 1/3 of what they normally cost? Had someone else already decided they were not accurate and dumped them?
Good question.
I hadn't tried them from anyone else. And they are all from one lot, respectively. All the BH and all the Barnes.
I got them from someone who needed to generate some cash quickly, and was selling off a bunch of guns and ammo for firesale prices. I also picked up cases of IMI 77gr and some 9mm ammo. I spent a chunk of change, but it was well worth it in the long run. Or so I thought.
I had read, besides constructor's suggestion, that the all copper bullets do like to be shot through barrels unfouled by other rounds, so I will see if that makes any difference in my Sionics 11.5 barrels. I'll have some data on Tuesday when the range opens.
I do still want to build an SPR upper that will handle these rounds well though.
lordmorgul
05-10-23, 02:31
I had good success shooting 70gr Hornady GMX monolithic bullets through two barrels: 1) 16” Ballistic Advantage Modern Series BA Hanson profile 1:7 with 5.56 chamber, and 2) Green Mountain Barrel GM-20 20” 1:8 SPR stainless fluted with 223 Wylde chamber.
The 20” Wylde is more accurate but I would buy the BA Hanson barrel again in a heartbeat and very satisfied with it. What function the Wylde barrel performance has from chamber freebore for the longer bullets jump (and short COAL used) or if they actually prefer the slower twist versus having faster twist I cannot say. I did not seat into or near lands and was surprised how well it works. I got better accuracy with it for other long for 1:8 twist bullets (ELD 73gr and 75gr single loaded COAL above mag length) as well but it is longer and much heavier than the 16” barrel obviously. I think 1:8 does fine with them. I used the same COAL of 2.200” for 70gr GMX in both barrels with the bullet 1.047” length typ.
vicious_cb
06-30-23, 03:24
I had good success shooting 70gr Hornady GMX monolithic bullets through two barrels: 1) 16” Ballistic Advantage Modern Series BA Hanson profile 1:7 with 5.56 chamber, and 2) Green Mountain Barrel GM-20 20” 1:8 SPR stainless fluted with 223 Wylde chamber.
The 20” Wylde is more accurate but I would buy the BA Hanson barrel again in a heartbeat and very satisfied with it. What function the Wylde barrel performance has from chamber freebore for the longer bullets jump (and short COAL used) or if they actually prefer the slower twist versus having faster twist I cannot say. I did not seat into or near lands and was surprised how well it works. I got better accuracy with it for other long for 1:8 twist bullets (ELD 73gr and 75gr single loaded COAL above mag length) as well but it is longer and much heavier than the 16” barrel obviously. I think 1:8 does fine with them. I used the same COAL of 2.200” for 70gr GMX in both barrels with the bullet 1.047” length typ.
Im guessing yours actually came with rifling? :D
https://youtu.be/HMeuaPvNBOs?t=347
constructor
06-30-23, 09:06
Im guessing yours actually came with rifling? :D
https://youtu.be/HMeuaPvNBOs?t=347
That is a first but hey the gas port didn't hit a land.
davidjinks
06-30-23, 12:24
I have had great experiences with V Seven barrels. 1:7 twist, polygonal bore. I’ve shot lots of Hornady and BH all copper bullets and they’ve performed flawlessly.
Last year I acquired a substantial amount of Black Hills GMX 70gr and Barnes VOR TX 70gr. After testing both rounds in a 16" 1 in 8 barrel and a couple 11.5" 1 in 7 barrels, I'm less than impressed with the accuracy I've been getting.
I suspect it has a lot to do with the length and hardness of the Hornady and Barnes copper bullets making them difficult to properly stabilize in slower twist or shorter barrels. I also wonder if the rifling is getting a sufficient purchase on the harder material. So I'm looking at building a 16" or 18" SPR type upper with a 1 in 7 twist barrel in an effort to sufficiently stabilize these things. I suppose I could be convinced to go to a 20", but I still want to be able to carry this rifle extensively, if need be, so weight is a consideration. And it will be suppressed which adds substantial length and weight way up front.
Some of the barrels I've been considering are the SPR barrels from WOA. And possibly a Black Hole Weaponry barrel if I can convince them to build me one with their newly developed "claw" rifling which is supposed to work well specifically on all copper bullets. I have one of their standard polygonal barrels in a 308 AR build, and I'm pleased with its performance, FWIW.
Any ideas, or experiences getting better accuracy with all copper bullets? Barrel recommendations? Will a 223 Wylde barrel be a hindrance to these 5.56 rounds?
I have had great experiences with V Seven barrels. 1:7 twist, polygonal bore. I’ve shot lots of Hornady and BH all copper bullets and they’ve performed flawlessly.Thank you. There does seem to be a nice pairing between polygonal rifling and copper bullets. I've put this build on the back burner for now as I'm busy with work, but I've been leaning towards a polygonal rifled barrel.
davidjinks
06-30-23, 12:45
I have only used the 16” mid lengths and the 14.5” midlegth. They all shot MOA or better for me with match ammo. The BH 62 grain stuff shot exactly 1” at 100 yards. I’m not a supersniperdeltacagrangersasoperstor, but this barrel was a laser.
The huge upside, at least for, is their warranty. No matter what, you shoot thebarrel out, they’ll replace it.
EDITED FOR CORRECTION…
Thank you. There does seem to be a nice pairing between polygonal rifling and copper bullets. I've put this build on the back burner for now as I'm busy with work, but I've been leaning towards a polygonal rifled barrel.
I have only used the 16” mid lengths. They all shot MOA or better for me with match ammo. The BH 62 grain stuff shot exactly 1” at 100 yards. I’m not a supersniperdeltacagrangersasoperstor, but this barrel was a laser.
The huge upside, at least for, is their warranty. No matter what, you shoot thebarrel out, they’ll replace it.
Is yours the standard or lightweight contour barrel? I'm leaning towards a lightweight fluted. Wonder how much that would affect precision.
davidjinks
06-30-23, 22:03
I prefer the standard weight barrels. I feel as if the light weight barrels, though light, have more barrel while and the heat affects their accuracy a lot faster than the standard weigh barrels.
I use these 2 barrels:
https://www.vsevenweaponsystems.com/5-56-223-barrels/v7-stainless-match-barrel-16
https://www.vsevenweaponsystems.com/5-56-223-barrels/v7-stainless-match-barrel-14-5
I will be building a 10.5” upper using this barrel in there near future:
https://www.vsevenweaponsystems.com/5-56-223-barrels/v7-stainless-match-barrel-10-5
There’s an option with the barrel selection to have them coated black, which I believe is KG400 which has held up extremely well. Of course, I paint all my rifles.
Is yours the standard or lightweight contour barrel? I'm leaning towards a lightweight fluted. Wonder how much that would affect precision.
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