View Full Version : Traveling Abroad and Self Defense
Heavyweight
05-22-23, 11:37
So my baby girl just graduated from TCU and we are celebrating with a Mediterranean cruise. We are going to fly into Barcelona and spend a few days before boarding. We wind up in Rome with lots of ports in-between. We will be gone about two weeks.
Of course I knew my self defense options were going to be limited. But I thought I'd at least be able to get a 4" folding knife on board. And I could initially....in my checked bags. But at every stop they x-ray all bags and have metal detectors when re-boarding. I'll lose my knife after the first port of call. The cruise line doesn't allow so much as a Swiss Army knife. So the cruise ships are the problem. Otherwise I'd be fine getting my knife around in checked bags.
Do we have any big travelers in the group that have been in this situation? As it stands right know all I got is my bare hands. It really does not inspire one to travel internationally. Especially via cruise ship.
Stay safe
Heavyweight
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Eds Manifesto details buying and using a paring knife for self defense abroad. Cheap and disposable. On a cruise ship? Steal a steak knife? Even better, take some BJJ and get comfortable/confident fighting so you can relax and enjoy your vacation.
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No one wants to hear this, but here I go: the best defense when travelling abroad is situational awareness and knowing when to un-ass a location. Be the gray man and blend in, keep your head on a swivel, know routes, etc. Do NOT take any weapon into a foreign country.
No one wants to hear this, but here I go: the best defense when travelling abroad is situational awareness and knowing when to un-ass a location. Be the gray man and blend in, keep your head on a swivel, know routes, etc. Do NOT take any weapon into a foreign country.
10000% this. SA is your friend.
Just go and enjoy your trip. Unless you go looking for trouble, you'll be fine. The tourist areas are nearly always pretty safe with the exception of maybe pickpocketing and petty theft.
Trying to prison-wallet little knives and such is more trouble than it's worth and puts you at risk of ending up in some random prison on weapons charges you don't understand. You have minimal rights here, but you have NO rights there....
I had to travel internationally in my previous life...I took a laptop and my swingin' cod. It was all fine.
Common sense tips:
- Don't go down some alleyway with some rando local trying to sell you something or show you his menu of mama-sans.
- Don't get in a random vehicle driven by some guy who says he's cheaper/faster than a taxi or Uber.
- Take a legit Taxi over an Uber.
- Don't flash wads of money, wear flashy jewelry, or carry a bunch of designer stuff. (i.e. blend in as much as you can)
- If you go hands-on with somebody, you're going to jail.
Maybe something in hard plastic or one of those Pens that serve as a weapon. But they function as a pen.
https://www.amazon.com/Gerber-Impromptu-Tactical-Pen-31-001880/dp/B00B0BD3W0/ref=sr_1_6?hvadid=178483854423&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=9030097&hvnetw=g&hvqmt=e&hvrand=3514305788067552491&hvtargid=kwd-14988838282&keywords=surefire%2Bpens&qid=1684775695&sr=8-6&th=1
PB
titsonritz
05-22-23, 12:21
No one wants to hear this, but here I go: the best defense when travelling abroad is situational awareness and knowing when to un-ass a location. Be the gray man and blend in, keep your head on a swivel, know routes, etc. Do NOT take any weapon into a foreign country.
...one exception, a cane and learn some Arnis.
Heavyweight
05-22-23, 12:38
No one wants to hear this, but here I go: the best defense when travelling abroad is situational awareness and knowing when to un-ass a location. Be the gray man and blend in, keep your head on a swivel, know routes, etc. Do NOT take any weapon into a foreign country.You are 100 percent right....I just feel naked with nothing but my dick in my hand. I'm not John Wick with a knife anyway. It's mostly psychological I suppose.
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FromMyColdDeadHand
05-22-23, 13:16
I’ll be in Rome with the family for a few days this summer, I got your back…
More worried about pick pockets than anything. Heard it was bad in Italy recently.
I will say that SA is the best. Was with a ex-pat US buddy for a boozy weekend in Budapest a few years ago, and I can see a guy tailing and paralleling us. My buddy has totally lost his SA from living in Western Europe and never saw a thing.
Low profile cash and self defense training.
Being able to effectively use that which is not normally considered a weapon can get you out of sticky situations.
You’d be surprised what you can do with some training and a tree branch.
Low profile cash and self defense training.
Being able to effectively use that which is not normally considered a weapon can get you out of sticky situations.
You’d be surprised what you can do with some training and a tree branch.
Yeah you can deal out a damn good thrashing with a tree branch https://www.dailymail.co.uk/video/tvshowbiz/video-2875897/Video-Fawlty-Towers-Moment-Basil-gives-car-damn-good-thrashing.html
Andy
So my baby girl just graduated from TCU and we are celebrating with a Mediterranean cruise. We are going to fly into Barcelona and spend a few days before boarding. We wind up in Rome with lots of ports in-between. We will be gone about two weeks.
Of course I knew my self defense options were going to be limited. But I thought I'd at least be able to get a 4" folding knife on board. And I could initially....in my checked bags. But at every stop they x-ray all bags and have metal detectors when re-boarding. I'll lose my knife after the first port of call. The cruise line doesn't allow so much as a Swiss Army knife. So the cruise ships are the problem. Otherwise I'd be fine getting my knife around in checked bags.
Do we have any big travelers in the group that have been in this situation? As it stands right know all I got is my bare hands. It really does not inspire one to travel internationally. Especially via cruise ship.
Stay safe
Heavyweight
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Dont try to get anything on the cruise ship.
A strong pen and a heavy belt are probably your best options, besides being in shape and taking martial arts.
I'm an international airline pilot. As has been said, SA is your survival tool. If you get caught with any true weapons as a foreign national, there's no telling when you will be coming home. A lot of places around the world even a Swiss Army knife will get you in jail for months. At the most, I have an aluminum barrel cross pen and a small edc flashlight. Yes, a "tactical pen" can get you busted in places too. Any metal or hard abs plastic pen like a Pilot G2 will do.
The whole learning, BJJ or martial arts just makes me laugh out loud. If you haven't been training for years, it's just going to get you in trouble. People that grew up with us, and/or have been training for years are another story. That's not who I'm talking about. They are the real deal. I'm talking about the weekend warrior that's taking a couple classes here and there. What that's going to do is give you false confidence to do something when you should be running instead. If you see something brewing, GTFO. Even if you win, you are the foreigner. You will go to jail.
You will NEVER see me on a cruise ship. With my luck that would be the ship where there is a stomach flu outbreak. F-That.
FromMyColdDeadHand
05-22-23, 14:54
I’m intrigued by a river cruise. Hopefully less Petri dish, and mainly just transport.
My son wanted to take a knife with him, had to give him a hard ‘no’, might have him read this thread to know I’m not kidding. He’s 6’2 now. If we have to stop walking we try to put the ladies in the middle and watch each others backs.
MIL was with friends and had her Rolex ripped off her arm by a two-man motorcycle crew in Brazil on a cruise stop. Right in front of the cops oddly enough. It wasn’t a clean swipe and she stugggled with them briefly and got a bit dinged up.
Averageman
05-22-23, 15:14
I've traveled the world and in and out of hot zones.
If you think you'll be needing a knife, you need to change locations.
Having said that you can always order a steak and pocket the knife on the way out. A Steel Pen might be handy, but anything including a roll of dimes is a weapon.
Use S/A and if all else fails you had better be able to think fast.
The mind is the ultimate weapon. I'm confident that legislatures the world over will never figure this out as they are almost universally unarmed in this regard.
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Maybe something in hard plastic or one of those Pens that serve as a weapon. But they function as a pen.
https://www.amazon.com/Gerber-Impromptu-Tactical-Pen-31-001880/dp/B00B0BD3W0/ref=sr_1_6?hvadid=178483854423&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=9030097&hvnetw=g&hvqmt=e&hvrand=3514305788067552491&hvtargid=kwd-14988838282&keywords=surefire%2Bpens&qid=1684775695&sr=8-6&th=1
PB
Zebra stainless steel pens....they blend in
No one wants to hear this, but here I go: the best defense when travelling abroad is situational awareness and knowing when to un-ass a location. Be the gray man and blend in, keep your head on a swivel, know routes, etc. Do NOT take any weapon into a foreign country.
^^^ This ^^^
And the other posts like it. When in doubt read them again.
I lived in western germany for half a decade or so. As mentioned above SA is your friend. Also, find out the stops the ship will make and do a map recon/check tour books/google crime reports can help significantly. I found out the hard way that Frankfurts' red light district was between myself and the museum I wanted to visit one time. Several zebra 701 pens, cheap all steel, don't look tactical, a non-tactical looking flashlight or two. Sturdy closed toe shoes that are good for walking but have a stiff enough toe to resist stomps. A money clip or toss roll with Euros, with the rest of your cash secreted in various spots. Leave the fancy jewelry home. Avoid "tactical" clothing, bags and gear, it's not as common in Europe as it is in the states. As they still use a lot of hard currency, a change purse might be usable as an expedient weapon. You could also use impact rated sunglasses, that way if someone decides to throw something in your face, your eyes are protected. In the reverse, some nice hot street coffee can be used on an attacker. Umbrellas can also be carried or purchased locally and used as expedient weapons. On ship, look for the fire extinguishers, they can hurt someone real fast. If it gets real bad, dissemble some furniture for a club, load up something heavy into a sock (bar of soap).Also door wedges for on the ship. You could also sharpen an old gift card or credit card (preferable without your name on it) and use it as an emergency cutting device.
You're going to need a pen, for postcards and such.
https://www.511tactical.com/kubaton-tactical-pen.html?country=us&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=G_Shopping_Catch-All&gclid=CjwKCAjwpayjBhAnEiwA-7ena17B1Rg_iXP3F06KNX9-PmxzngRmvKJIBtN2ZfzwS6wDjPrp--0iQBoCV2cQAvD_BwE
I'm an international airline pilot. As has been said, SA is your survival tool. If you get caught with any true weapons as a foreign national, there's no telling when you will be coming home. A lot of places around the world even a Swiss Army knife will get you in jail for months. At the most, I have an aluminum barrel cross pen and a small edc flashlight. Yes, a "tactical pen" can get you busted in places too. Any metal or hard abs plastic pen like a Pilot G2 will do.
The whole learning, BJJ or martial arts just makes me laugh out loud. If you haven't been training for years, it's just going to get you in trouble. People that grew up with us, and/or have been training for years are another story. That's not who I'm talking about. They are the real deal. I'm talking about the weekend warrior that's taking a couple classes here and there. What that's going to do is give you false confidence to do something when you should be running instead. If you see something brewing, GTFO. Even if you win, you are the foreigner. You will go to jail.
You will NEVER see me on a cruise ship. With my luck that would be the ship where there is a stomach flu outbreak. F-That.
True it won't make you a fighter, but it will help your thinking just a little bit more, which will help you with your SA and general mindset. A "decent" workshop is like a carbine class, it won't make you Delta but it will give you things that IF you practice will one day be useful.
ETA: If you really want to be ninja about it, get a decent hickory cane. Don't try and pull any stunts with stuff like sword canes, not only are they easily detectable they are mostly flimsy junk. But a quality hickory cane will be the most weapon you can get away with most places. Tell them you have a bad knee and that after walking all day you need it to get around.
Don't get anything cute with a metal tip, get a sturdy one with a well wore rubber ferrule.
I did a similar cruise out of Barcelona and throughout Rome in 2019, it was busy but a great time! Relax and enjoy the trip but as everyone has said keep up your SA and avoid trouble just like you would in any urban area in the US.
For context, I have worked large city LE forever and carry a G19, dual side knives, light, mag, and even a pocket backup pretty much 24/7 off duty even when travelling around the US.
That said, my family and I travel overseas every other year and I am perfectly happy giving all my EDC for a small powerful flashlight and a zebra pen. Even if for some crazy reason I could carry my G19 overseas I am pretty sure I don't want to deal with shooting someone in a foreign country. The same goes for stabbing someone, I think it just shows too much criminalish forethought for most 'civilized' places.
Pay attention to your surroundings. Enjoy the food and the sights and look less clueless than all the other tourists around you [emoji6]
The inside of the Familia Sagrada is worth a visit! I didn't have a bad bite of food in Barcelona either...
Dennis.
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I’m going to chime in w/ the choir and say NOTHING remotely tactical. Zero things from 5.11!
Khaki trousers and a button down shirt and something relatively conservative for the ladies. I would go out of my way for nothing w/ script (t shirts and polo) at most maybe go for some euro trash brands (Adidas or Lacoste, etc.) have a tailor sew a hanging pouch or pocket into your trousers behind a normal pocket for your passport and emergency cash, CC et al. None of those “tourist travel wallets” you can buy. Gypsies suck.
Phony wallets/ money clips etc to toss and run. Leave your normal wallets at home or at most in your room “safe”.
No valuables in bags. Extra clothing, sunscreen, etc…
A non-essential phone that works in the AO. I would be reticent to cross many boarders w/ my real phone. An old used phone w/ just the essentials. Or at the very least kill your biometrics. At least crossing our border they can compel biometrics, not PIN numbers.
Improvised tools:
A rolled up tight travel mag or guide book is a decent impact weapon. Maybe some sort of slung shot type deal: Small camera case w/ an old POS camera and some batteries. A cane (not anything remotely billed as a weapon cane. Just a solid hardwood. Alternatively a hiking staff or trekking poles if appropriate.
A cheap but bulky stainless watch or a real carabiner used as a key chain or on a pack can work as a pair of knuckles.
If you choose a flashlight Olight makes an orange Arkfield that is 1000 lumen and has a UV setting for its most important task: finding scorpions! Yikes! Don’t forget to shake out your boots!
For the ladies, depending on how involved they care to be, a small squeeze bottle of ammonia for “stain removal” or “insect bites” sucks to get sprayed in the eyes.
Knives sadly probably aren’t worth the risk. At most a tiny Swiss army that could in no way be construed as a weapon just as. general utility cutting tool. Barring that, maybe a small set of cuticle shears.
Anyways, food for thought. Hope you find something helpful.
Also if you have time a ShivWorks class packs a lot into a very short time period and can be fun.
Tactical pen and flashlight, I’ve taken them many places and haven’t been given any shit about them. The flashlight I take abroad has an aggressively crenalated bezel that is threaded/removable so it is easily removed and I can slip it over a finger and it looks like an odd ring.
I’ll echo others, enjoy the trip and keep yours eyes open and aware of the situations you get into.
RE: martial arts, I have boxed, and I do judo and BJJ. For me fighting is THE last resort, when I have no other options, back against the wall kind of thing.
A pen, a flashlight, is good and all but what do you do after you do something with those? Better hope you have witnesses friendly to your story.
You don't have to dress as a local, but don't dress like an American. Just be cool. Blend in.
I have been to third world countries as a tourist, in the military, and as a US government employee. SA, mind your P's and Q's, get a local map and know routes. Have a few 'safe houses' picked out (museums, restaurants, etc.) where you can go to to chill and get your bearings, or in case (God forbid) you get split up. Carry some sort of doc that shows you are an American, and know where the consulate/embassy is. Really, being safe just comes down to paying attention.
sandsunsurf
05-23-23, 19:27
RE: martial arts, I have boxed, and I do judo and BJJ. For me fighting is THE last resort, when I have no other options, back against the wall kind of thing.
A pen, a flashlight, is good and all but what do you do after you do something with those? Better hope you have witnesses friendly to your story.
You don't have to dress as a local, but don't dress like an American. Just be cool. Blend in.
I have been to third world countries as a tourist, in the military, and as a US government employee. SA, mind your P's and Q's, get a local map and know routes. Have a few 'safe houses' picked out (museums, restaurants, etc.) where you can go to to chill and get your bearings, or in case (God forbid) you get split up. Carry some sort of doc that shows you are an American, and know where the consulate/embassy is. Really, being safe just comes down to paying attention.
This is closest to my mindset and my advice. I don't dress super tacti-cool, but I really like my 5.11 Apex pants and Apex shorts. So I wear them. T-shirt or wrinkle free polo usually. Comfortable trail shoes. Small-ish single cell tactical flashlight, but I slip it in my pocket once I'm off the ship so the clip isn't visible. I keep minimal stuff in my pockets, and use zip pockets for important things. Split up cash, keeping a main amount in a secure area, and a few beers worth in my front pocket. Nothing in my back pockets. Situational awareness.
Watch for things out of the ordinary- I watched a pair of pickpockets on the metro in Athens fake a problem with the door, letting one of them grab an Asian tourist's phone (I wasn't sure if the crooks got something). I watched as the tourists recognized they didn't have the phone, so I approached, helped them get Athens police and gave a description, but I'm sure it was far too late. The point is be aware of being distracted and try not to be!!
This is closest to my mindset and my advice. I don't dress super tacti-cool, but I really like my 5.11 Apex pants and Apex shorts. So I wear them. T-shirt or wrinkle free polo usually. Comfortable trail shoes. Small-ish single cell tactical flashlight, but I slip it in my pocket once I'm off the ship so the clip isn't visible. I keep minimal stuff in my pockets, and use zip pockets for important things. Split up cash, keeping a main amount in a secure area, and a few beers worth in my front pocket. Nothing in my back pockets. Situational awareness.
Watch for things out of the ordinary- I watched a pair of pickpockets on the metro in Athens fake a problem with the door, letting one of them grab an Asian tourist's phone (I wasn't sure if the crooks got something). I watched as the tourists recognized they didn't have the phone, so I approached, helped them get Athens police and gave a description, but I'm sure it was far too late. The point is be aware of being distracted and try not to be!!
And that is probably closer to actual threats you need to be on point for than some action film fantasy. I also second the suggestion of the person who recommended bringing a burner phone and never using it for any kind of financial transaction.
I have done this all over the world.
Regarding tactical pens, do not get a tactical cool pen . Get a pen that doesn't look tactical, also don't get one with the glass breaker tip on the non working as a pen side, I just save you a bunch of pain.
Also do not get a tactical pen that has a flashlight or laser as part of it.
Two of us were traveling together and we had steel pens with us and we got through airport security no issues. While we were going through an American 5 11 wearing idiot went through security and got arrested because his "cool" pen had a flashlight as part of it.
Also pick up a tactical coin purse and fill it with about 12 oz of coins, you know for tip money.
I also have always carried a couple a hard salamis with me, so of course I need a small knife for cutting up my snacks. It goes into my checked bag but when I get to my location it is in my back pack or messenger bag. I have stayed in hotels with metal detectors to get into the hotel. The security questions it and then I show them the sausage and all in good, Besides it is such a small knife, it folds so it can be carried safely.
I have been stopped at road blocks, like every other car or person walking. But I have never been stopped with me being the focus.
No gun shirts or hats.
Similar to what yoni said. I've spent many weeks in Northern Italy and surrounds. (Austria, Slovenia, Hungary, etc). Plus long trips to Western Europe for work and pleasure.
The thing to understand is that many countries do not allow self-defense or significantly restrict it. UK is an extreme example, if you carry something specifically for self-defense you are in big trouble if you use it. But if you pick up something or happen to have a cane or walking stick and use it you are okay.
Pocket knives are a thing in Northern Italy, and every little town has a knife shop where they sell some nice knives. I carry the Kershaw leak just about the entire time I was in Europe over many many trips and never had an issue. Often times had a leatherman in a travel backpack. Never hassled.
What might get you in trouble in some countries is a serrated edge or a locking pocket knife. Both are stupid, but so were their laws / mindsets.
Zebra 701 pen tucked in the corner of my pants pocket. Strong but does not look tactical. It's just a pen. Flew all the time with it all over EU, UK, Scandinavia.
As to US brands/logos, and tactical, you will be stunned at the amount of Carhartt stores and similar in Europe. Younger locals wear more US brands with logos than anything European other than sports. But you'd be amazed at the number of US sports team jerseys and hats on locals. Even see some MOLLE on packs, though it is less common.
In the med area one thing to do is plan your travel during the colder months. The gypsies and North African immigrants (there are many) that cause some of the problems do not like the cold and head South.
Don't leave anything in your car, and most locals in northern Italy leave their cars unlocked when parked out of sight because Gypsies will bust out the windows just to get any loose change.
Everyone talks about SA, but the number one thing is to take the time to learn the layout of where you are with a map and plan your route so that you are not stuck looking at your phone trying to stumble along.
My wife and daughter would use a purse with backpack straps and in crowded areas would wear it backwards. A common Gypsy trick is to hold out and pretend to drop a baby while someone else grabs your purse. You just have to be aware of stuff like that and don't fall for it.
Despite our perceptions Northern Italy and the Mediterranean is still fairly conservative and super tight yoga pants will attract negative attention. I've seen it multiple times even with my nieces.
Never had a safety/theft issue in Barcelona, Madrid, Northern Italy, Budapest, etc. I'm sure it (pickpocketing, etc) was there and our time may come, but we were in the middle of some big crowds on a regular basis.
Southern Italy (Rome & Sicily) does have a lot more petty crime and tourist hassles.
Sidneyious
05-24-23, 16:37
If you carry at home you think you will be safe elsewhere?
I've seen enough videos abroad, imma stay away from airports.
I have been mugged once, and it was while I was armed.
I got hit by a group of like 23 to 25 year olds armed with AKs and pistols. I knew I could have pulled my pistol and shot all of them. But then I would have been the big white guy with dead or dying black kids at me feet in an African country.
So I pulled out my money clip that had less then 50 Euro in it and gave it to them. They left happy and so did I.
I recommend Greg Elliftritz's book "Choose Adventure" for great tips on defense while traveling. Get out and live your best life without fear.
https://www.chooseadventurebook.com/
Also do not get a tactical pen that has a flashlight or laser as part of it.
Two of us were traveling together and we had steel pens with us and we got through airport security no issues. While we were going through an American 5 11 wearing idiot went through security and got arrested because his "cool" pen had a flashlight as part of it.
I think I understand the rest of your advice but what's wrong with a flashlight? Did this object look more like a weapon than a pen? Would a separate flashlight have been a problem?
I think I understand the rest of your advice but what's wrong with a flashlight? Did this object look more like a weapon than a pen? Would a separate flashlight have been a problem?
I really don't know how to answer that.
They had two inspection points and we went through ours no problem. On the other line they started messing with this guy, which caught our attention. I saw them pick up the pen with the flashlight and then next thing is the guy is marched away in handcuffs.
I carry a light in my checked bag, along with a knife and never had an issue in an airport. I have been in a lot of places and never an issue.
Not necessarily criminal intent or limited to a particular area of the world.
https://youtu.be/XNo4fkNvVI4
Don't leave anything in your car, and most locals in northern Italy leave their cars unlocked when parked out of sight because Gypsies will bust out the windows just to get any loose change.
Everyone talks about SA, but the number one thing is to take the time to learn the layout of where you are with a map and plan your route so that you are not stuck looking at your phone trying to stumble along.
My wife and daughter would use a purse with backpack straps and in crowded areas would wear it backwards.
All of this is good. All of this is 'SA.'
In Italy take the insurance on your rental car. They scam tourist by stealing taillights from rental cars. You then get hit with a huge bill like 1000 Euro , Later the thieves sell back the tail lights and everyone profits but you.
I always take the extra insurance, so I can walk away from any issues. It is cheap in the long run
In Italy take the insurance on your rental car. They scam tourist by stealing taillights from rental cars. You then get hit with a huge bill like 1000 Euro , Later the thieves sell back the tail lights and everyone profits but you.
I always take the extra insurance, so I can walk away from any issues. It is cheap in the long run
I agree. Travel insurance of everything: rentals, hotels, flights. Everything.
Heavyweight
05-25-23, 10:13
That is why I never allowed myself, my wife or kids to parasail, zipline, etc while on vacation. I was always the asshole dad. But we are all still breathing. I could just never understand trusting my life or the lives of my family to an islander who reeks of marijuana and can't even properly fasten his belt.
Thanks to everyone for all of the travel tips. I knew I'd get some good Intel here. Yoni....thanks for the tip on rental car insurance because that's something I never do. And if I get surrounded by a bunch of kids with AKs I'll remember to just throw down some cash. I don't even want to think of the places you've been man.
I've acquired a cane (along with prescription), a good stainless steel pen and a small non-tactical flashlight. And of course my brain....the most important tool of all. I'm going to just stay alert and have a good time!
Stay safe
Heavyweight
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always carry your throw away money in a money clip. For 2 reasons, first so you don't mess up and throw the wrong wad of cash, second that you can have it engraved with your initials or name to prove you tried to be the good guy.
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