View Full Version : MK12 optics discussion
MarshallDodge
05-31-23, 13:11
@stickman. Starting a new thread so we don't muddy up the picture thread.
I run a 1-8.5 LPVO on my 16" SR-15, and have shot it to 1000 yards, on full size silhouettes, using MK262/77 Nosler loads. Not an easy task but it's doable.
I had a 4-16x Vortex HS-T mil/mil on my 18" MK12 Mod 1 style upper. That was a great setup and I liked the sleek lines of the smaller objective. The downside is that it was SFP and would drive me nuts not having the reticle scale to the magnification.
As mentioned in the picture thread, I am putting together a Mod 0, and have a Nightforce 2.5-10 with the ARMS rings to make it look more correct, but again not FFP. More recently I picked up a 4-16x42 ATACR, with mil reticle and FFP, for when I want to shoot a little further.
I'm kicking around a few ideas. The MK12 using a 2.5-10 was pretty darn effective, but regardless of how high speed they were, they weren't using the same selection of optics which I have currently (better and worse). The 1-10 Vortex Razor seems like it would cover the original intent of that weapon platform pretty nicely. However, I'm not sure that I really care what the original intent was when I won't be using the same optics. That brings me to a few different thoughts.
First idea, is to pull my 4-16 FFP Vortex and use that, but it sits pretty happily on my KAC LPR shown below. I know people will comment saying that the LPR deserves nicer glass, but this scope does well on this and I have no complaints.
https://64.media.tumblr.com/41465e578ab0a19ea217f0b92e16f4a8/b2ff0c5cff365396-51/s1280x1920/c497d5d212c939afe60dd75e2b15e1086ec25b0d.jpg
https://64.media.tumblr.com/df99b0385e05e15c41be2e5963b218d0/1d1f464cb3f447a0-6b/s1280x1920/03b00222b9fd630fcc365b7887b21a57010cec55.jpg
I also have a free Trijicon 3-9x40 illuminated which needs a home, but it doesn't really seem to jive with the entire MK12ish feel. I pulled it off the below while I rebuild that MK12 cut down 16" barrel into something else. While this might not be my first choice, it is a nice clean piece of glass... and it isn't currently spoken for by any other weapons. That might be enough to make it the winner.
https://64.media.tumblr.com/8f8b19aaa1d029fd7442c06257d6d533/7d9756951fcc5bf3-be/s1280x1920/880a00555858564b93b7793ea20f27be3c220b4b.jpg
I've got this Trijicon 1-6, but I really don't feel like 6x is enough of anything to target ID or shoot out far enough. I need to up those rookie 6x numbers up, but like the other Trijicons I own, it is a nice sharp piece of glass...
https://64.media.tumblr.com/75b0962dbdf5dddc0604f6397a2ca686/fdaee79927895cbe-41/s1280x1920/f80f2cb2b866554c56e171367944f82cf4544a5a.jpg
I should have started out my post showing this weapon, as this is the one I'm talking about setting up with an optic. Its hard to complain about this setup the way it is, but there is a part of me which wants to make it different or better. There is also a large part of me that wants to save the Vortex 1-10s for 308 projects which are upcoming.
https://64.media.tumblr.com/014cbb3743c1f6ff3820b85b849c1dec/4ffaf46583a6098f-cc/s1280x1920/fe2f3cafbbe5c30b00aee3b0d46017da596ea624.jpg
Sidneyious
05-31-23, 18:25
https://youtu.be/uyDZvxSZ5Cg
When I was looking for an optic for my 16" I was looking at anything from $600-2500nf) and after 2 months of research I did go with the glx 2.5-10.
I really didn't want to give my money to them but damnit the fact that the illumination sucks it did everything I needed and didn't have an extra grand on the price tag for shit.
I was almost wanting to get a night force but did some reading and no thanks.
I didn't make my choice on the above video but it was a help in the right direction.
.I also watched a lot of c_does videos in addition to reading.
The 3-9 is dead and an lpvo on a "dmr" is stupid.
I remember reading a post somewhere I forget that went on about how scopes work with a lot of math way above my head about why an lpvo should be 1-4 and a 1-6 could be acceptable if you don't mind reduced performance at max zoom.
To make a 1-10 really work you need to step out of the "short dot footprint".
As much as I want a legit mk12 this is as close as I will get.
The concept is definitely over though for magnification and I don't have a compromise for the low end.
Somewhere in here is a discussion about the spr/mk12 scope concept.
It's still a good listen if you will but Brock goes on a tangent about scopes for this ranged ar15 in 223/556.
https://www.youtube.com/live/IoV5trMN5W0?feature=share
hotrodder636
05-31-23, 20:43
I don’t have any pics with the scope mounted on my Mk18 Mod 1 (KAC Lower, KAC handguard, Geissele trigger, Rainier Arms Ultramatch 18” barrel—not clone correct but my version) but on top currently sits a 3.5-18 Eotech Vudu FFP. It works well for the gun but definitely doesn’t fit the OG Mk12 profile. It is a large scope for the gun but it is what I had around and I needed glass for it.
I think that MOD0 PRI handguard really limits you visually to a period correct Leupold and ARMS rings...
My supposedly very correct MOD1 MSTN upper has a Leupold M3 which was as close I could get to the real SPR optic back in the day, but I couldn't bring myself to use ARMS rings.
I really want to put something more powerful on it but it just wouldn't look right no matter how great it shoots...
Good Luck Stick!
Dennis.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230601/862b0644e6df86b803341a9f5d543f22.jpg
Sent from my SM-S908U using Tapatalk
I think the new Leupold Mk5 2-10 could be an outstanding SPR scope. Smaller footprint but still had a 10x upper magnification range for distance shots. Still has an adjustable parallax for precision at range. Not horribly expensive.
The 3.6-18 Mk5 would be another good option if you want more magnification.
I have the 5-25 Mk5 on my custom 308 bolt gun. It really is a hell of a scope for the money. Is it as good as my 7-35 ATACR? No. But it was literally half the price.
MarshallDodge
06-01-23, 16:02
I think the new Leupold Mk5 2-10 could be an outstanding SPR scope. Smaller footprint but still had a 10x upper magnification range for distance shots. Still has an adjustable parallax for precision at range. Not horribly expensive.
The 3.6-18 Mk5 would be another good option if you want more magnification.
I have the 5-25 Mk5 on my custom 308 bolt gun. It really is a hell of a scope for the money. Is it as good as my 7-35 ATACR? No. But it was literally half the price.
I'm starting to like the Mk5 but it has taken a little while. I had a good friend who bought the 5-25 when it first came out. He sent it back to Leupold twice because it wouldn't dial accurately. I guess the second time fixed it. Another guy on snipershide had a similar issue. More recently I have spoken to a few guys at the range with the 3.6-18, and they are happy with them.
Nightforce has the NX8 line. The 2.5-20 with the Mil-XT looks like another good option. I just wish they had the smaller objective, like a 40 or 44mm.
I just acquired my first MK12, which recently arrived from Centurion Arms. After some research and deliberation, and consideration of $ as well, my initial glass for this rifle is a Trijicon 2-10X36 FFP in Mrad. Most reviews of this scope are very positive, and I understand the negative aspects (not daylight bright, no parallax adjustment). The glass is very good, weight and size is reasonable, and I really like the reticle. I am an admitted FFP fan for sure. I like the idea of the Mk5 2-10 but when you figure in rings (35mm) as well as scope $, more than I wanted to initially invest. Maybe later.
I really like having > 10x for 1000. Im currently runni g 3-18 and like it.
I am running a vortex pst 2-10 on one of my mk12ish builds. It’s an older gen 1 that I built up years ago. Looking at the new Leupold 2-10 mk5 makes me very tempted to switch some things around.
hotrodder636
06-02-23, 13:55
I really like having > 10x for 1000. Im currently runni g 3-18 and like it.
Ditto. That is the nice thing about a 3.5-18x, I can set it on 10-12x and that is not on the max edge of the magnification.
https://youtu.be/uyDZvxSZ5Cg
When I was looking for an optic for my 16" I was looking at anything from $600-2500nf) and after 2 months of research I did go with the glx 2.5-10.
I really didn't want to give my money to them but damnit the fact that the illumination sucks it did everything I needed and didn't have an extra grand on the price tag for shit.
The 3-9 is dead and an lpvo on a "dmr" is stupid.
I remember reading a post somewhere I forget that went on about how scopes work with a lot of math way above my head about why an lpvo should be 1-4 and a 1-6 could be acceptable if you don't mind reduced performance at max zoom.
To make a 1-10 really work you need to step out of the "short dot footprint".
As much as I want a legit mk12 this is as close as I will get.
The concept is definitely over though for magnification and I don't have a compromise for the low end.
Somewhere in here is a discussion about the spr/mk12 scope concept.
It's still a good listen if you will but Brock goes on a tangent about scopes for this ranged ar15 in 223/556.
https://www.youtube.com/live/IoV5trMN5W0?feature=share
I hadn't thought about the GLx 2.5-10, thought I have looked at it and liked the overall package it seems to provide.
Regarding the 3-9... I'm not sure about being dead, as they are still as effect now as when they were first produced. When I think 3-9, I do tend to think more in the vein of hunting, but that doesn't mean it won't work. I also have a few different platforms that I need to throw optics on, so that 3-9 will end up on something or other.
I agree that a LPVO comes up short in a areas, but as mentioned above, the optics need to go on something. I still lean towards the 1-10s for my 16" 308 guns, but I may toss a 1-6 on one. The Razor lineup is good clean glass, but its a matter of putting the right glass on the right gun.
My assessment of the PA GLx 2.5-10x44mm as a DMR type scope is unfavorable for the following reasons:
First the reticle is more of a LVPO Type and unsuitable for long range work. For most LR shooting you dial for elevation and hold for wind. The GLx reticle however has no wind holds on it's base line.
Second, the field of view is very small at 36' @ 100 yds.
Third the eye relief is very short at 2.8"
On the plus side, the turrets are excellent, the weight @ 22.5 oz is outstanding, it's adjustment range is excellent @37 Mils and it does have side PA. Cost is in the $750. range.
The Trijcon Credo 2-10x36mm is it's prime competitor.
It has a reticle suitable for LR shooting, weight of 23 oz., field of view of 50'@100 yds, eye relief of 3.4 to 3.9", 27 Mils of elevation, and a cost of around $1000.
The Credo lacks PA adjustment, and it's turrets aren't as good as the GLx though they are serviceable.
We can argue about how much side PA means on a scope that is not meant for shooting small groups, but in reality neither the PA nor the Credo would be my choice for shooting sub MOA on paper targets.
Shooting fast and accurately on a two way range is more their forte and both have strengths and weaknesses in that arena.
Other choices like the Vortex Viper PST Gen 2 are worth a look, but at nearly 27 oz it is too much for too little.
Athlon Helos BTR Gen2 2-12x42mm has all good features except weight and being made in China. But it is the cheapest of the MPVO's.
There are really not any more MVPO's to consider, as everything else is either SPF, or bigger, heavier, and/or more expensive.
All this is IMHO and YMMV.
I understand most people think that an SPR/DMR is some high speed sniper gear. The reality is they mostly get given to line grunts with minimal training.
You can want or need an urban semiauto light sniper rifle, but in actual use a fiber optic bright illumination with BDC and wind tree is actually more useful.
MarshallDodge
06-04-23, 14:11
I understand most people think that an SPR/DMR is some high speed sniper gear. The reality is they mostly get given to line grunts with minimal training.
You can want or need an urban semiauto light sniper rifle, but in actual use a fiber optic bright illumination with BDC and wind tree is actually more useful.
BDC might work for the average Joe on large targets, but I get really frustrated with a BDC reticle. It's pretty rare that you can get one to line up with your load, especially when you get out past 300 yards.
In an urban environment, 300 is a looong way but I'm not in an urban environment and my gun isn't just sitting in the safe waiting for the day a zombie starts walking up my driveway. I shoot at distances from 25-1000 yards pretty regularly with a DMR or SPR.
I need a reticle that corresponds with the MOA or Mil data that my ballistics app gives me, as well as the feedback that I get from a spotter. 1 MOA or 0.5 MIL increments in a reticle is so much nicer to work with than the coarse BDC stadia lines.
^Definitely agree.
Although Strelok can give you info on what bullet/velocity keys with BDC reticle sub-tensions on a lot of scopes; it has to be proven in the field.
It’s a fools errand to trust data without verifying.
I have a few BDC scopes, but none are useable much last 300 yds.
I’m telling you how they get used in the real world, and you are telling me how you like to use one on the range.
Neither is right or wrong, I’m just saying is that that the scope should be picked for the actual use.
There is nothing wrong with a SFP scope on a general purpose SPR for the majority of practical users.
There is nothing wrong with a big, higher magnification, FFP scope for more long range specialized SPR.
^Definitely agree.
Although Strelok can give you info on what bullet/velocity keys with BDC reticle sub-tensions on a lot of scopes; it has to be proven in the field.
It’s a fools errand to trust data without verifying.
I have a few BDC scopes, but none are useable much last 300 yds.
Yeah, you always need to true up the data. "Published b.c." will get you close, but IME, you have to refine it if you want to make 1st rd hits at distance consistently..
I just acquired my first MK12, which recently arrived from Centurion Arms. After some research and deliberation, and consideration of $ as well, my initial glass for this rifle is a Trijicon 2-10X36 FFP in Mrad. Most reviews of this scope are very positive, and I understand the negative aspects (not daylight bright, no parallax adjustment). The glass is very good, weight and size is reasonable, and I really like the reticle. I am an admitted FFP fan for sure. I like the idea of the Mk5 2-10 but when you figure in rings (35mm) as well as scope $, more than I wanted to initially invest. Maybe later.
Update: First time to the range today with the MK12. In a nutshell, the Centurion Arms MK12 is a tack driver. Using Black Hills MK262 1-C it was literally putting repeated rounds through the same hole. Amazing accuracy. Also, perfect functioning. And, the Credo 2-10X36 proved very useable for its first time out. Impressed with both rifle and optic.
constructor
07-05-23, 12:24
@stickman. Starting a new thread so we don't muddy up the picture thread.
I run a 1-8.5 LPVO on my 16" SR-15, and have shot it to 1000 yards, on full size silhouettes, using MK262/77 Nosler loads. Not an easy task but it's doable.
I had a 4-16x Vortex HS-T mil/mil on my 18" MK12 Mod 1 style upper. That was a great setup and I liked the sleek lines of the smaller objective. The downside is that it was SFP and would drive me nuts not having the reticle scale to the magnification.
As mentioned in the picture thread, I am putting together a Mod 0, and have a Nightforce 2.5-10 with the ARMS rings to make it look more correct, but again not FFP. More recently I picked up a 4-16x42 ATACR, with mil reticle and FFP, for when I want to shoot a little further.
So what did you think of the NF 4-16X?
MarshallDodge
07-09-23, 16:35
So what did you think of the NF 4-16X?
It is a fantastic optic. I still have not finished my Mk12 mod 0 and so the 4-16NF is sitting on the shelf. When I first picked it up, I put it on an 18" 223 bolt action and it did not disappoint. The ATACR came off the bolt gun when I received an 8-32 NXS in a trade.
Another optic that I did not know much about until recently is the Sightron S-TAC 3-16x42. Sightron is well know in the benchrest and F-class community for making some top tier glass for reasonable money.
Pros-
Good glass for the money, can typically be found for around $500 on sale. My example was purchased lightly used for $320
Made in the Philippines, not China
Compact and weight is 24.8 oz, almost 6 oz less than the ATACR, but it is a 30mm tube rather than a 34mm.
Parallax is from 10 yards to infinity, good for close work
20.4 MRAD of adjustment, plenty for a DMR/SPR application, and the reticle has 10 MRAD in it.
FFP and illuminated
Cons-
I have heard some complaints about the field of view. Personally it has not bothered me.
After having locking turrets on my SMRS, the exposed turrets on other scopes make me a little nervous that they could get easily bumped. Not a big con but something to be mindful of on this scope.
Some may want a christmas tree type reticle and that is not offered on these.
Another scope that I was able to check out recently is the Leupold MK5HD 3.6-18x44. It was on a fellow shooters rifle, is a really nice compact design, with some neat features. Another model to check out when shopping for an optic if $2K is within your budget.
It is a fantastic optic. I still have not finished my Mk12 mod 0 and so the 4-16NF is sitting on the shelf. When I first picked it up, I put it on an 18" 223 bolt action and it did not disappoint. The ATACR came off the bolt gun when I received an 8-32 NXS in a trade.
Another optic that I did not know much about until recently is the Sightron S-TAC 3-16x42. Sightron is well know in the benchrest and F-class community for making some top tier glass for reasonable money.
Pros-
Good glass for the money, can typically be found for around $500 on sale. My example was purchased lightly used for $320
Made in the Philippines, not China
Compact and weight is 24.8 oz, almost 6 oz less than the ATACR, but it is a 30mm tube rather than a 34mm.
Parallax is from 10 yards to infinity, good for close work
20.4 MRAD of adjustment, plenty for a DMR/SPR application, and the reticle has 10 MRAD in it.
FFP and illuminated
Cons-
I have heard some complaints about the field of view. Personally it has not bothered me.
After having locking turrets on my SMRS, the exposed turrets on other scopes make me a little nervous that they could get easily bumped. Not a big con but something to be mindful of on this scope.
Some may want a christmas tree type reticle and that is not offered on these.
Another scope that I was able to check out recently is the Leupold MK5HD 3.6-18x44. It was on a fellow shooters rifle, is a really nice compact design, with some neat features. Another model to check out when shopping for an optic if $2K is within your budget.
Not to rain on your parade via the Leupold MK5 3.6-18x44mm but Leupold still wants $500. more if you want that scope illuminated. Leupold still doesn't understand the market, and hasn't for more than 20 years......
MarshallDodge
07-10-23, 00:48
I'm not feeling any rain, just throwing it out there as another option. There are a couple of Leupold scopes in my safe, target and hunting models, and they came on the guns when I bought them.
When I bought my first Nightforce in the late 90s, it was a toss up between them and Leupold. The NF had more features for the same money so that is the direction I went and have never looked back.
Its very frustrating. No one makes a light weight mid-power scope under 20oz with a good reticle.
The leupold mk3 4-12 would be good if it had a tree reticle like the pr2.
My 3-18 is nice but 33oz. Does anyone make a 20oz or less optic with a tree and top end mag of 10-20x?
Vortex lht 3-15, but FFP and ebr7 would alao be great.
Its very frustrating. No one makes a light weight mid-power scope under 20oz with a good reticle.
The leupold mk3 4-12 would be good if it had a tree reticle like the pr2.
My 3-18 is nice but 33oz. Does anyone make a 20oz or less optic with a tree and top end mag of 10-20x?
Short answer No. Nobody makes a sub 20 oz with an Xmas tree reticle and a top end of 10-20x.
Weight wise, only 2, but both are SFP and no Xmas Tree, and the Nightforce is 20.5 oz:
https://vortexoptics.com/vortex-razor-hd-lht-3-15x42-riflescope+reticle-HSR-5i~MRAD
https://www.nightforceoptics.com/riflescopes/nxs/nxs-25-10x42-compact/
FFP and Xmas Tree Reticles in your desired power range exist, but all are over 20 oz.
Trijicon Credo 2-10x36mm 23 oz
PA GLx 2.5-10x44mm 22.5 oz
PA GLx 4-16x50mm 23.5 oz
Athlon Helos 2-12x42 25.4 oz
Athlon Helos 4-20x50mm 27.6 oz
Nightforce 2.5-20x50mm 28.3 oz
Vortex Viper PST 3-15x44mm 28.1 oz
There is also several Leupold scopes that fit, but since they basically charge an extra $500. per scope just for illumination vs non-illuminated models I don't find them at all desirable. You may however.
There may be others but these are all I can think of offhand.
^Definitely agree.
Although Strelok can give you info on what bullet/velocity keys with BDC reticle sub-tensions on a lot of scopes; it has to be proven in the field.
It’s a fools errand to trust data without verifying.
I have a few BDC scopes, but none are useable much last 300 yds. What target size are we talking about?
Yeah, you always need to true up the data. "Published b.c." will get you close, but IME, you have to refine it if you want to make 1st rd hits at distance consistently.. yeah, the key is truing it up at distance. If the trajectory doesn’t perfectly match drops, say you zero it at 200 and its off by 2 minutes low at 600, I’d rather it be spot on at 600 and 2 minutes high at 200. Of course, it helps to have a combo that matches fairly closely.
I personally don't need a tree reticle to shoot to 600yds. So, I really like the SFP Leupold VX5 and VX6 lines for great glass and 20 once scopes. The CDS dials work really good if time allows to dial. It would be nice to have some wind dots for 10mph, but a person is 18" shoulder to shoulder typically and if one keeps that in mind with established wind corrections for 5-10mph, hold offs aren't terrible. The VX5HD 3-15x44 HDMR would be the cat's meow too. Mil hash reticle at 15X and the 15X sight picture does not dim at max power on these VX5&6 lines.
If you dial for elevation a Coniferous tree reticle is not needed. If you hold for elevation and windage, good luck without one at more than 600 yards in windy conditions.
If you dial for elevation a Coniferous tree reticle is not needed. If you hold for elevation and windage, good luck without one at more than 600 yards in windy conditions.
Yeah. I do both, depending on the situation. The biggest benefit is for followup shots and self-spotting.
The credo looks super interesting. I can swing 3oz cause its still 10oz lighter than my current scope.
I was interested enough in the Credo HX to buy the 2.5-15 x 42mm model. I've only begun using it for load development, but like it enough that if I were to find another for the same price I'd probably buy it.
The glass is good, knobs are good (feedback is not great, but good enough), durability should be good, reticle is basic but functional, return to zero works well, etc. I've really got nothing bad to say about it.
I was interested enough in the Credo HX to buy the 2.5-15 x 42mm model. I've only begun using it for load development, but like it enough that if I were to find another for the same price I'd probably buy it.
The glass is good, knobs are good (feedback is not great, but good enough), durability should be good, reticle is basic but functional, return to zero works well, etc. I've really got nothing bad to say about it.
The only thing bad about it is that's it's a Second Focal Plane scope. That design was state of the art in 2005. If you wanted a SFP scope you could have bought a Vortex Razor HD LHT and saved 3.5 oz's....
For use on a precision rifle, I prefer FFP, but on a general purpose/hunting rifle I don't. The Trijicon currently lives on a 6.5 Grendel, but it'll likely get moved to a 6.5 CM light-ish weight bolt gun (after I buy said gun).
I've checked out the Razor HD LHT, but that 3.5 oz reduction comes with a price of $500. I don't choose optics based on one specification, like weight.
It’s definitely not one I’d choose for a MK12.
If you dial for elevation a Coniferous tree reticle is not needed. If you hold for elevation and windage good luck without one at more than 600 yards[/B] in windy conditions.
More than 600yds I'm not shooting at with a 5.56.
Holding for both elevation and wind, that's an obvious recipe for disaster. Gotta obviously lock in elevation, hold only for wind. Getting back to my preferred HTMR reticle use.
I demoed the Tenmile line. Everything was sexy AF about them, except the parallax was too exacting to lock in, and were mushy.
More than 600yds I'm not shooting at with a 5.56.
Holding for both elevation and wind, that's an obvious recipe for disaster. Gotta obviously lock in elevation, hold only for wind. Getting back to my preferred HTMR reticle use.
One thing to consider is, for example, 3 targets at 500, 600 and 700 yards. You can dial for 500, then hold the difference for the other 2 and get quicker hits on all 3.
One thing to consider is, for example, 3 targets at 500, 600 and 700 yards. You can dial for 500, then hold the difference for the other 2 and get quicker hits on all 3.
Damn straight!
One thing to consider is, for example, 3 targets at 500, 600 and 700 yards. You can dial for 500, then hold the difference for the other 2 and get quicker hits on all 3.
I've done that with a 400 yard zero. Was able to make quick hits from 100 to 700, all known distances and holds with no wind.
Short answer No. Nobody makes a sub 20 oz with an Xmas tree reticle and a top end of 10-20x.
Weight wise, only 2, but both are SFP and no Xmas Tree, and the Nightforce is 20.5 oz:
https://vortexoptics.com/vortex-razor-hd-lht-3-15x42-riflescope+reticle-HSR-5i~MRAD
https://www.nightforceoptics.com/riflescopes/nxs/nxs-25-10x42-compact/
FFP and Xmas Tree Reticles in your desired power range exist, but all are over 20 oz.
Trijicon Credo 2-10x36mm 23 oz
PA GLx 2.5-10x44mm 22.5 oz
PA GLx 4-16x50mm 23.5 oz
Athlon Helos 2-12x42 25.4 oz
Athlon Helos 4-20x50mm 27.6 oz
Nightforce 2.5-20x50mm 28.3 oz
Vortex Viper PST 3-15x44mm 28.1 oz
There is also several Leupold scopes that fit, but since they basically charge an extra $500. per scope just for illumination vs non-illuminated models I don't find them at all desirable. You may however.
There may be others but these are all I can think of offhand.
So the credo and athelon 2-12 are the only ones Id trade my mpo for. PA reticle options are unacceptable
The nx8 is almost as heavy and the image quality is barely better- not worth the upgrade in price
Pst im paying $300 for 5oz, not worth it for me.
If i was starting over Id go credo, but the MPO served its purpose as a LR trainer. Ill probably throw it back on the 223 once i upgrade my bolt rifles scope and just deal with the weight. Image is acceptable (nx8-is) for 700-1k and reticle is fantastic.
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