These may be the world's best warships. And they're not American.

[Buncheong]

"'Since shipyard availability is at a premium in the United States, having a portion of that work done in Japan would address that problem until America can refurbish and expand its shipyards – a 10-year process in most defense analysts’ eyes,' Schuster said.

Japan and South Korea 'both build very high quality ships on time and on budget, both things (the US has) lost the ability to do,' Herzinger said."

https://edition.cnn.com/2023/06/02/asia/japan-south-korea-naval-shipbuilding-intl-hnk-ml-dst/index.html?utm_medium=social&utm_content=2023-06-04T01%3A00%3A11&utm_source=twCNNi&utm_term=link

[mack7.62]

I spent 6 months at Daewoo Shipyard in Okpo, South Korea while they were building an offshore oil platform for Chevron. They had some innovative methods, watching them build large tankers, car ferry, container ships etc. very fast. They would build in sections, bow here, middle sections there, stern over there then bring sections together and weld them up. Each section had all major components installed, piping, conduits, compartments, the stern had engines mounted, rudder, prop shaft and props etc. all built in different parts of the yard then brought together and assembled. They were masters at moving huge heavy parts of ships around, and very fast compared to normal ship building. On our platform they would start with the deck upside down, install all the overhead piping and fittings so they didn't have to weld or paint overhead then take about 6 mobile cranes pick up that deck, flip it over and stack it on the lower deck. Very impressive operation, if you want a lot of ships fast that is the way to go.

[Buncheong]

I appreciate getting the inside scoop from an SME who's been there and seen it from the inside. Thanks for the very educational reply, it's very insightful.

[SomeOtherGuy]

The Catch-22 here is that domestic-only procurement of USN ships (and the Jones Act for civilian domestic shipping) is probably the only reason we still have any shipyards at all, at least for ocean going size ships. In the short run we would totally be better off procuring from Japan or SK, but it would probably drive the nail in the coffin of major US shipbuilding.

Why is it that we can't, or don't, effectively build ships at the same cost and quality level as Japan and SK? We still do so for airplanes, and we're not too far behind in automobiles; close enough that US factories stay in business and are making viable products. (I'll admit Toyota and Hyundai both do a little better, especially for lower priced cars.) So what factor keeps us from being competitive on shipbuilding?

[AKjeff]

I've spent a little time in shipyards as ships crew, and have talked to some people after inspecting on new builds.

If it's fed gov funded, a certain percentage of the materials have to be US sourced. The ship owner will hire inspectors, part of their job is to track the materials going into the ship.
The yard is trying to get the job done and will use any materials they can to get it done.
So there are games being played, foreign materials will be placed in areas that it's difficult to inspect, or work is done late or on weekends when the owners inspector may not be available.
When the inspector finds the foreign materials used, it has to be removed and replaced, leading to delays in job completion.

Two instances I know of concerning this involved pipe fittings. In one case they were welded in so the "Mexico" was facing the bilge, the inspector used a mirror and found the country of origin and made the yard redo that fitting.
The other one was placed in the bilge, behind and under the base of a large piece of equipment, fortunately the inspector was young, spry and thin, she got down there and found it was a foreign manufactured fitting.

Then there is the management. I'd say too many white hats and not enough crew doing the work. Also, I've witnessed work slowdowns when the crew knows they will be laid off when the job is done.
If it's a union yard certain trades have to do certain jobs, if they're not available the job waits.
You need the electrician to lock out/tag out a breaker or motor controller before any work can be done by the machinists on the pump, valve or system that needs attention.
If the electrician is across the yard pulling wire on a more urgent job, the machinists wait until he's available.

Ship owners of US flag merchant ships will pay a fine to get work done in a foreign yard, to get the work done faster and on or under budget.

The US Merchant Marine and ship building could probably be compared to our medical insurance and care as to how the current system came to be and why it has problems.

Foreign yards have been streamlined for productivity and cost, US yards, not so much.

[ODgreenpizza]

Two instances I know of concerning this involved pipe fittings. In one case they were welded in so the "Mexico" was facing the bilge, the inspector used a mirror and found the country of origin and made the yard redo that fitting.
The other one was placed in the bilge, behind and under the base of a large piece of equipment, fortunately the inspector was young, spry and thin, she got down there and found it was a foreign manufactured fitting.

Were those Ruhrpumpen fittings by chance?

[AKjeff]

No, just standard socketed pipe fittings.

[crosseyedshooter]

In my domestic travels as a quality engineer, it was surprising to find many American manufacturers who didn't realize that others were doing it better than them. Yes, there are still certain sectors of manufacturing where Made in USA automagically meant you got the best, but it's frequently using foreign materials, equipment or machinery.

From a societal perspective, American culture makes poor robots. Individualism makes good tradesman, craftsman, engineers, inventors, etc. However, collectivist cultures tend to better control variation and is more aligned with modern manufacturing practices.

[Adrenaline_6]

Just look at the pinnacle of automotive motorsports - Formula 1...how many US manufactured engines have had any success other than the Ford Cosworth DFV? Even then, it wasn't really American, Cosworth Racing is a British company and the chassis it went into was from Lotus, another British company. Ford provided funding and got branding rights.

[SBRSarge]

I spent a week with a couple who worked in the east coast shipyards. They said ships could be built for less, far quicker, and with better quality except the unions actively harass and run out anyone who tries to over-achieve in their job.

[Coal Dragger]

We should also factor in the substantial subsidies foreign shipyards get from the respective national governments the yards are in.

We don’t do that beyond US Navy contracts and even those are limited and relatively small in scope.

I we want to maintain certain heavy industries that are vital to our own economic and national security we’re going to have to get serious about protecting them with tariffs on foreign made competing products, and directly subsidizing domestic players in that space. Semiconductors, metals, shipbuilding, heavy equipment, aircraft, automotive, precision machining, tool and die, etc are all vital and we need to get serious about protecting and helping them thrive domestically.

[Averageman]

We should also factor in the substantial subsidies foreign shipyards get from the respective national governments the yards are in.

We don’t do that beyond US Navy contracts and even those are limited and relatively small in scope.

I we want to maintain certain heavy industries that are vital to our own economic and national security we’re going to have to get serious about protecting them with tariffs on foreign made competing products, and directly subsidizing domestic players in that space. Semiconductors, metals, shipbuilding, heavy equipment, aircraft, automotive, precision machining, tool and die, etc are all vital and we need to get serious about protecting and helping them thrive domestically.

I worked in the Defense Industry for a decade and a half. I was very surprised about how many parts were made in China.
As the "War on Terror" progressed the Q/C got slammed aparently when our vendors for bolts were found to be grossly out of specification.
We have to produce what it takes to defend ourselves.

[militarymoron]

They said ships could be built for less, far quicker, and with better quality except the unions actively harass and run out anyone who tries to over-achieve in their job.

Not sure about other places, but this is true at my place of work as well.

[Diamondback]

I'm personally a big fan of Japan's new Hyugas--and I'd bet if we could get a team from Mitsubishi over here to help set up a shipyard to be American-owned but managed the Japanese way, a license-build with some modification of their basic design could be just the ticket for a war with China, much like how we had smaller carriers that specialized in mostly-fighter airgroups to play D protecting the big-decks in WWII. Divert the F-35's and ASW helos onto Hyugas in the middle ring, figure two or three each STOVL VF and ASW helo loads per big-deck, along with some Aegis cruisers acting as spear-carriers for the F-35s to call in launches from. (IIRC the system's already there, the plane marks the target and sends the fire command and the ship's crew are just there to keep the missiles ready.)

Better yet, adapt the Aegis/Standard missile system to also have an SSM variant that the F-35's can similarly call in ship-to-shore missile strikes with...