View Full Version : Middle Class Housing Crisis And $1000/month car payments...
America’s Middle Class Housing Crisis
https://amgreatness.com/2023/07/06/americas-middle-class-housing-crisis/
According to a Goldman Sachs index which extends back three decades, America just hit the worst levels ever for housing affordability. Given this lack of affordability, first time homebuyers especially struggle. Per the National Association of Realtors, the ratio of first-time buyers just melted down to the lowest levels since the early 1980s – not coincidentally, the last time America suffered from serious, systemic inflation.
So, who can buy shelter right now? Generally, the market becomes increasingly dominated by the wealthy, often as investors rather than residents, and by institutional capital which makes a sizable move into single family homes and smaller apartment complexes for the first time ever.
According to Realtor.com, middle income earners can only afford 23% of the homes and condos on the market for sale right now. For context, that number was above 50% just five years ago. Increasingly, institutional capital exploits this disequilibrium and snatches up the housing stock that regular citizens cannot afford to buy. Massive private equity-backed firms become large-scale landlords, even of single-family homes and MetLife projects that, by 2030, institutions will own a stunning 40% of America’s housing rentals.
Of course the lack of affordability for shelter purchases leads directly to similar problems in the rental market, as even apartments now skew heavily to the upper-end, leaving modest earning Americans behind. For example, the Harvard University Center for Housing studies just reported that, adjusted for inflation, from 2015 to 2022, the share of new apartments that costs over $2,000/month nearly doubled, from 19% of the market to a whopping 36% of the market. On the lower-priced end, the opposite trend unfolded. Back in 2015, 22% of new units rented for $1,050 or less per month. But by 2022, adjusted for inflation, only 5% of new units could be had for that affordable rate.
Record number of car buyers paying $1,000+ per month amid low vehicle inventory
https://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/2023/07/03/car-payments-inventory-interest-rates/70378655007/
So here is the fallout of all that, along with the higher interest rates, according to Edmunds' second-quarter data:
The share of consumers who financed a vehicle with a monthly payment of $1,000 or more reached a new peak of 17.1%, up from 12.2% a year earlier. In the second quarter of 2019, before the COVID-19 pandemic and the chips shortage, it was 4.3%.
Average monthly payments reached a new record high of $733. That compares with $730 in the first quarter and $678 in the second quarter of 2022.
The average APR ticked up a tenth of a percentage point to 7.1% from the first quarter. But in the year-ago period, it was 5%, making 7.1% the highest APR since the fourth quarter in 2007.
The average amount financed dropped slightly from a year earlier, but remained above $40,000 for the fifth straight quarter at $40,356 in the quarter. That compares with the year-ago quarter of $40,602.
Real estate market is crazy, auto market is crazy... I’m just wondering who these fools are that’s paying a $1000/mth. For cars and trucks right now.
I know repos are approaching 2008/09 levels but the job market is equally crazy. 6 open spots for every applicant. That’s going to keep wages up no matter what the fed does. We could be looking at 80’s level interest rates before all’s said and done. :eek:
My wife had a $700 monthly (4y) 2021 Jeep payment that freaked me out. As soon as we could we paid it off as it bugged the hell out of me.
Forget that the freaking albatross left us stranded on the roadside last August with 11K miles on it due to a completely burnt up engine from a coolant leak the 4cyl turbo's are known for. Like smoke and nothing salvageable in the engine compartment type of thing. Got a factory new engine in the crate but had a rental car for 44 days. Finally paid it off 4 months ago but now I'm trying to subtly suggest she get rid of it!
hotbiggun42
07-07-23, 16:53
$1000 a month car payment
$150 insurance
Fuel and maintenance
=
Insane amount for transportation, what are people thinking?
Forget that the freaking albatross left us stranded on the roadside last August with 11K miles on it due to a completely burnt up engine
American Mediocrity in design strikes again. Nothing unique to Jeep sadly. But back to the original topics... I can't imagine trying to get housing and a vehicle as a young person today.
Being Car poor is just really dumb money usage. I'll take an older Toyota and NO payments all day long over a fancy new piece of American designed SHIT.
American Mediocrity in design strikes again. Nothing unique to Jeep sadly. But back to the original topics... I can't imagine trying to get housing and a vehicle as a young person today.
Being Car poor is just really dumb money usage. I'll take an older Toyota and NO payments all day long over a fancy new piece of American designed SHIT.
I agree completely. Now I did recently purchase a new car but even with the increased monthly payment and insurance I’m still saving money overall at the pump.
Thankfully we bought our house in ‘16 with an interest rate of 3.5 and then was able to refi in ‘21 at 2.45. I do kick myself though for not taking some of the equity out to pay off student loans and credit card debt, the thought just did not cross my mind at the time.
I have a feeling we might be having to buy a new place in a few years though, my in-laws are getting older and having difficulty climbing the stairs at their place. Our house is a small 3 bedroom two story place and I’d rather get a new single story place with a detached apartment for them to live in than have them live in an assisted living facility. Hopefully the economy and housing market improves before then.
CrowCommand
07-07-23, 17:04
American Mediocrity in design strikes again. Nothing unique to Jeep sadly. But back to the original topics... I can't imagine trying to get housing and a vehicle as a young person today.
Being Car poor is just really dumb money usage. I'll take an older Toyota and NO payments all day long over a fancy new piece of American designed SHIT.
Preach! Jeeps are trash. They probably used to be reliable….I’ve got a 98 4Runner with 209k on it, no end in sight. And a 14 Taco (built in TX) that has more problems (not much) than the older gal…..Fock car payments.
We bought our house Nov 21 right before it got stupid, and glad we did. I have friends paying more for rent than our mortgage. Riding out the storm til we can take out a home equity line of credit before any more big purchases.
We bought our house Nov 21 right before it got stupid, and glad we did. s.
We closed February of 20 on our current home and I still have nightmares of what if... we were paying $1400/mth in rent, now that same apartment goes for twice that.
I have no idea who’s paying these prices. It’s gotta be folks literally trapped, multiple jobs and still living pay check to pay check. Which is completely unstable long term.
Inkslinger
07-07-23, 17:26
American Mediocrity in design strikes again. Nothing unique to Jeep sadly. But back to the original topics... I can't imagine trying to get housing and a vehicle as a young person today.
Being Car poor is just really dumb money usage. I'll take an older Toyota and NO payments all day long over a fancy new piece of American designed SHIT.
My 2006 Tundra is still running like a top. The oil in that thing doesn’t even seem to get dirty. I’m 800 miles from my scheduled change, but checked my level just before I took it on a 200 mile trip. The oil looked like it was just changed.
These car payments are crazy. My wife has a 2016 Audi A3 that we bought 4 years ago. It was one of their loner car with 8500 miles on it. It still came with the full factory warranty. We paid $400 a month for it, which I thought was a lot! Her friend just bought a 2021 Q5 and her payment is indeed $1,000 a month. It’s mind blowing that people are paying that much.
Grown adults living at home with mom and dad, driving cars (actually SUV and trucks) they can't actually afford.
I'm looking at buying a new truck soon. My payment will priceline be near 1000 bucks a month, maybe even over depending on the price of the truck. Could I get a cheaper vehicle? Yes. But the ones I want are all over 60k and with trade in I'll be financing a little over 50k.
hotbiggun42
07-07-23, 18:16
My 2009 Tacoma has 250k miles on it. I plan on replacing the motor when the time comes
Grown adults living at home with mom and dad, driving cars (actually SUV and trucks) they can't actually afford.
THAT is probably the biggest factor in play here. I would wager that the number of young 'uns doing just that (and their parents allowing it) FAR exceeds the number actually working two jobs and living paycheck to paycheck. Hell, living with mummy and daddy you can afford a $1K vehicle payment.
Rifleman_04
07-07-23, 18:42
It’s not a crisis it’s stupidity. I see everyone around me buying(financing) $250,000+ houses and $80,000+ cars and I shake my head when I hear about their payments and taxes and complaints about living paycheck to paycheck.
I'm looking at buying a new truck soon. My payment will priceline be near 1000 bucks a month, maybe even over depending on the price of the truck. Could I get a cheaper vehicle? Yes. But the ones I want are all over 60k and with trade in I'll be financing a little over 50k.
Well if you can afford it or maybe you've already paid off your mortgage have at it. Given what absolute shitboxes most new vehicles are, I will try and get through the rest of my life with used vehicles with a better price to life ratio.
It’s not a crisis it’s stupidity. I see everyone around me buying(financing) $250,000+ houses and $80,000+ cars and I shake my head when I hear about their payments and taxes and complaints about living paycheck to paycheck.
$250k is either a good deal or a bad deal depending upon median house prices in your area.
I paid $185 for my current home in 2018, it's now valued at $248, I put 80% down and financed the remaining 20%, but I actually had to borrow $60 because that is the lowest amount a lender would finance so I used the balance to buy a used Jeep.
Median house range in my area today is $150, I really did come in right at a golden window.
I try not to look a gift horse in the mouth and wave my finger dismissively at these circumstances. :nono: I consider myself fortunate and "blessed" (not trying to put a religious spin on it, can't think of a better word right now). We own our house and all 3 vehicles. I too cannot imagine having to pay the inflated prices of 2023, it would suck.
Having said that, my wife and I also are pretty good at paying down debt and are reaping the benefits of it finally. Mind you I still buy toys occasionally and we take two decent vacations a year, so we weren't suffering to get there to be sure. We also have our TSP's (equivalent to a 401K) maxed out and have for years, having grown accustomed to paying bills and living off of what was left. So we were able to do this while having $30K per year each deducted for retirement. We also don't have kids----except four legs and fur----so that undoubtedly helps.
I will also add this: the "pursue your dream" crap that is and has been peddled is contributing to this situation these younger folks find themselves in. I have been in the medical field for 33 years. I don't particularly like it. I don't watch medical shows or read medical articles in my off time. It is only a job that I have to deal with, nothing more. My wife is also in the medical field, and is burnt out after 31 years. We make a decent living. The medical field has MANY openings.
My point? Sometimes ya gotta do things you aren't fond of to make ends meet and be somewhat comfortable. Your "dream job" is probably just that, a freaking dream. "Oh, I don't want to do that!" Of course if you did you'd probably make $100K a year. But don't worry, just live with Mom and Dad and chase your pipedream.
Only a small percentage of folks actually do for a living what they are "into" and really like. The vast majority of us working schleps just have to deal with it. Maybe these kids nowadays need to learn that; letting them live on your dime with a $1K new car payment and party money ain't the way to get that idea across.
Median house price in the Atlanta market was $392k last month. $250k buys you a fixer upper in a part of town you don't want to live in nowadays. In January of 2020, the median price in the Atlanta market was $245k. In 3 and a half years, it's gone up 60% (!). Completely untenable.
To further complicate things, because 82% of homeowners have interest rates below 5% and 62% below 4%, no one wants to sell as anything they buy will be at 7%, further exacerbating the shortage of homes for sale and artificially supporting high prices. It's a nightmare for affordability.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
07-07-23, 20:01
Median house price in the Atlanta market was $392k last month. $250k buys you a fixer upper in a part of town you don't want to live in nowadays. In January of 2020, the median price in the Atlanta market was $245k. In 3 and a half years, it's gone up 60% (!). Completely untenable.
To further complicate things, because 82% of homeowners have interest rates below 5% and 62% below 4%, no one wants to sell as anything they buy will be at 7%, further exacerbating the shortage of homes for sale and artificially supporting high prices. It's a nightmare for affordability.
Bought my house for 386k at 2.5 percent in 2017.
It's valued at 600 today, as is every normal 4 bed 4 bath house in Northern Colorado. I'd be insane to sell.
As far as cars go, the guys in here poo-pooing having to finance $700-1000: have you looked at what a used mini-van or SUV with sub-15k miles costs these days?
A 2021 Nissan Pathfinder with 15k miles goes for around 40 in these parts.
40k at 60 mo at 8% is $811 a mo
30k at 60 mo at 8% is still $608 a mo
Averageman
07-07-23, 20:21
I saw my Folks struggle in the Seventies when interest rates were hovering around 15% for a mortgage. My Dad started flipping Houses on weekends and after work, he had a rough crew of guys who would work part time with him.
But, that's the only way they could do it. Bottom line, the only way.
I've owned two homes, flipped the first one to buy this one and I've been here 14 years. I paid off the 240K mortgage, quite a lot of money at the time.
The town grew around me and now I'm sitting in the tall cotton. Two grocery stores, two phamacey's an Emergency Clinic and a theatre all within walking distance.
My neighbor is selling for 300K.
I'm selling and becoming an Ex-Pat in five years.
Well if you can afford it or maybe you've already paid off your mortgage have at it. Given what absolute shitboxes most new vehicles are, I will try and get through the rest of my life with used vehicles with a better price to life ratio.
We bought our house during the recession and refunanced during the Trump years when interest rates were crazy low. So i have a 190k mortgage at 3 percent for a house thats worth around 600k. The median house price in my part of town is probably around 700k. I also live in an area where you see Ferraris and Lamborghinis regularly.
Im looking at buying a newer used Ford F150 Raptor. With my Tundra trade in I will never be upside down on the truck. I can easily afford it, but If in the very unlikely event my wife or I lose our jobs, I could just get rid of it and buy something cheap.
There is a decent chance my truck payment will be more than my mortgage payment.
I completely understand the sentiment of guys in this thread. I agree on a certain level. But Im a car guy, I work hard, I make good money, and Im going to buy some things I like.
We bought our house during the recession and refunanced during the Trump years when interest rates were crazy low. So i have a 190k mortgage at 3 percent for a house thats worth around 600k. The median house price in my part of town is probably around 700k. I also live in an area where you see Ferraris and Lamborghinis regularly.
Im looking at buying a newer used Ford F150 Raptor. With my Tundra trade in I will never be upside down on the truck. I can easily afford it, but If in the very unlikely event my wife or I lose our jobs, I could just get rid of it and buy something cheap.
There is a decent chance my truck payment will be more than my mortgage payment.
I completely understand the sentiment of guys in this thread. I agree on a certain level. But Im a car guy, I work hard, I make good money, and Im going to buy some things I like.
I highlighted the important parts, I don't think you are really the subject of the people being discussed in this thread.
ChattanoogaPhil
07-08-23, 16:19
I saw my Folks struggle in the Seventies when interest rates were hovering around 15% for a mortgage. (snip)
That's about where mortgage rates were when I first considered buying a home in California. When I found a first-time home buyers deal under 10% I was thrilled.
Mortgage rates have been unbelievably favorable for home buyers during the past several years. Not so much today. These things are cyclical. My advice to anyone crying the blues is to rent a modest place to live, drive a POS car, save a few bucks and be prepared when conditions are more favorable or the right deal comes along.
That's about where mortgage rates were when I first considered buying a home in California. When I found a first-time home buyers deal under 10% I was thrilled.
Mortgage rates have been unbelievably favorable for home buyers during the past several years. Not so much today. These things are cyclical. My advice to anyone crying the blues is to rent a modest place to live, drive a POS car, save a few bucks and be prepared when conditions are more favorable or the right deal comes along.
When I bought my first house when I was in my late 20s, I think my rate was 12%.
I was renting in a very questionable part of Ft Lauderdale and driving crap boxes. Did that for a LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG time until I had enough to put 8% down which I think was the minimum.
All these 20 somethings who expect to buy a house similar to the one their parents have need to adjust their expectations unless they are making a TON of money or plan on living at home while they save up a TON of money.
I moved out on my own when I was 18. Crappy apartment, crappy jop and decent car. Only reason I had a decent car was I was smart enough to buy a very cheap fixer upper in high school and then took auto shop and let it be the practice car for the class. That means I got free repairs, only paid for parts but had kids working on it. Turned out fine, those kids were no worse than most of todays mechanics.
I worked and saved, worked and saved until I finally had a down payment on a starter home. That means a basic house in a reasonably safe neighborhood. When I finally closed and moved into that "starter home" I was so house poor I barely had enough in my bank account to buy Long John Silvers that first night. I ate kind of lean for 3 days until I got my next paycheck.
NOBODY helped me. My parents didn't give me start up cash. There was no such thing as a government program to help me (other than FHA terms). I didn't have a gofundme page. I did have a job that almost fired me because I took a sick day to make sure I got a house key before the realtors office closed for the day.
That is what MOST of us did.
I know there are young kids today doing exactly the same struggle, I've seen it. It's hard to make your way in the world with an average job, no special connections and nobody throwing a safety net under you. If anything went wrong like my car failed, I got hurt / sick or somehow lost my job I'd have been particularly screwed and would have lost the house and kissed that 8% down goodbye. There were no rescue plans for new home buyers back then.
I'd have probably been in my late 30s before I'd have been able to attempt it again. And that is why I knew a shit ton of people who rented well into their 30s and 40s and some folks who never stopped renting.
Single home family, kids and 2 cars is the dream but it's not owed to you and it's certainly not guaranteed.
When I bought my first house when I was in my late 20s, I think my rate was 12%.
I was renting in a very questionable part of Ft Lauderdale and driving crap boxes. Did that for a LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG time until I had enough to put 8% down which I think was the minimum.
All these 20 somethings who expect to buy a house similar to the one their parents have need to adjust their expectations unless they are making a TON of money or plan on living at home while they save up a TON of money.
I moved out on my own when I was 18. Crappy apartment, crappy jop and decent car. Only reason I had a decent car was I was smart enough to buy a very cheap fixer upper in high school and then took auto shop and let it be the practice car for the class. That means I got free repairs, only paid for parts but had kids working on it. Turned out fine, those kids were no worse than most of todays mechanics.
I worked and saved, worked and saved until I finally had a down payment on a starter home. That means a basic house in a reasonably safe neighborhood. When I finally closed and moved into that "starter home" I was so house poor I barely had enough in my bank account to buy Long John Silvers that first night. I ate kind of lean for 3 days until I got my next paycheck.
NOBODY helped me. My parents didn't give me start up cash. There was no such thing as a government program to help me (other than FHA terms). I didn't have a gofundme page. I did have a job that almost fired me because I took a sick day to make sure I got a house key before the realtors office closed for the day.
That is what MOST of us did.
I know there are young kids today doing exactly the same struggle, I've seen it. It's hard to make your way in the world with an average job, no special connections and nobody throwing a safety net under you. If anything went wrong like my car failed, I got hurt / sick or somehow lost my job I'd have been particularly screwed and would have lost the house and kissed that 8% down goodbye. There were no rescue plans for new home buyers back then.
I'd have probably been in my late 30s before I'd have been able to attempt it again. And that is why I knew a shit ton of people who rented well into their 30s and 40s and some folks who never stopped renting.
Single home family, kids and 2 cars is the dream but it's not owed to you and it's certainly not guaranteed.
QFT. The problem today is instant gratification- new high school/college grads think they should be living like their parents NOW because society and social media tells them so- it is owed to them. It took me 30 years to get what I have- a nice salary, nice home on acreage and a few decent cars (albeit now they are 5-8 years old but well taken care of).
QFT. The problem today is instant gratification- new high school/college grads think they should be living like their parents NOW because society and social media tells them so- it is owed to them. It took me 30 years to get what I have- a nice salary, nice home on acreage and a few decent cars (albeit now they are 5-8 years old but well taken care of).
And won't even get started on what it took for our grandparents to get their first home. Made what we went through look like a walk in the park.
My grandfather went to build the Alaska Highway before he ended up being a top turret gunner in a B-24. They built the actual road, there were no hotels, restaurants or bathrooms. They were building the road that allowed for those things. He made enough working on construction of the actual road, which included clearing trees, leveling ground and hard ass labor that most people probably assume we had chinese immigrants doing, that he was able to buy an average house in Iowa after doing that for an entire year.
If you wanted water, you went and got it out of the river. You slept in vehicles and more than once somebody wasn't alive in the morning. They had food but it was whatever could be trucked in and that wasn't reliable or regular. He told me that when he went to war in Europe, he figured it probably couldn't be any worse than trying to survive a year in Alaska. Of course it turned out to be far more dangerous in many ways but when his plane (and most of the others) was shot down going after Hitler's oil reserve at Ploesti, Romania and he ended up sneaking through the woods of Yugoslavia trying to avoid capture and get back to friendly lines he did remember thinking many times "it's going to be ok, Alaska was much harder." He was MIA for almost three months and spent many nights alone hiding, but never spent a day as a POW.
Despite that being an absolute shit show, he always felt he was fortunate having worked on the Alaska highway because learning how to survive there taught him the things he needed to survive on the run for months in Romania and Yugoslavia. He considered that "lucky."
And won't even get started on what it took for our grandparents to get their first home. Made what we went through look like a walk in the park.
My grandfather went to build the Alaska Highway before he ended up being a top turret gunner in a B-29. They built the actual road, there were no hotels, restaurants or bathrooms. They were building the road that allowed for those things. He made enough working on construction of the actual road, which included clearing trees, leveling ground and hard ass labor that most people probably assume we had chinese immigrants doing, that he was able to buy an average house in Iowa after doing that for an entire year.
If you wanted water, you went and got it out of the river. You slept in vehicles and more than once somebody wasn't alive in the morning. They had food but it was whatever could be trucked in and that wasn't reliable or regular. He told me that when he went to war in Europe, he figured it probably couldn't be any worse than trying to survive a year in Alaska. Of course it turned out to be far more dangerous in many ways but when his plane (and most of the others) was shot down going after Hitler's oil reserve at Ploesti, Romania and he ended up sneaking through the woods of Yugoslavia trying to avoid capture and get back to friendly lines he did remember thinking many times "it's going to be ok, Alaska was much harder." He was MIA for almost three months and spent many nights alone hiding, but never spent a day as a POW.
Despite that being an absolute shit show, he always felt he was fortunate having worked on the Alaska highway because learning how to survive there taught him the things he needed to survive on the run for months in Romania and Yugoslavia. He considered that "lucky."
They should make a movie about your grandfather. That’s a badass story.
I highlighted the important parts, I don't think you are really the subject of the people being discussed in this thread.
I understood what you were saying. I was jus pointing out that 1000 dollar car payments are not the craziness it once was. Hell, mid trim full size pickups are 50k easily now.
I understood what you were saying. I was jus pointing out that 1000 dollar car payments are not the craziness it once was. Hell, mid trim full size pickups are 50k easily now.
2022 Chevy Silverado 1500 4WD king cab (or whatever it's called) was a $57+K sticker.......the "rebates" I got knocked a whopping $500 off the price. On trade they gave me $30K and I wrote a $10K check which had me financing just under $19K. I was fortunate enough to be able to pay it off four months after I bought it. The payment was $438mo for 48 months.
Yeah, the prices of things in general are ridiculous, like everything.
Averageman
07-08-23, 22:55
At a time when a bunch of Folks aren't getting married, it would seem the only way to actually grow enough wealth might be.. to be married.
I'm glad I am out of the rat race. I made good decisons based on life experiances, I bought at the right time, sold at the right time, retired at the right time.
I'm no genius, I joined the Army with a GED and I'm sitting here in a nice paid off home, with a nice paid off Truck and five grand a month coming in. No small part of getting that was a hell of a lot of Spartan Living.
If I ever get feeling sad about my life and it's pressures I remind myself that I am the Grandson of a Sharecropper.
I dont ever see myself financing a vehicle again. Its pretty dumb financially.
They should make a movie about your grandfather. That’s a badass story.
After Ploesti, there were thousands of US airmen on the ground. He isn't the only one who did what he did, he just got lucky.
He spoke fluent German and worked on farms growing up in Iowa. So the first month he was able to hide out working as a "helper" on a Romanian farm for a family that wasn't overly fond of the nazi's while everyone else got snatched up by the gestapo. When he felt things had calmed down enough he started footing his way back home through Yugoslavia. At some point in Yugoslavia he got connected with an underground movement and finally made it back to Italy where he was based. Spent a good part of that time doing woods and mountains trying not to get caught because he told me the Germans were shooting people who ran.
FromMyColdDeadHand
07-08-23, 23:37
Just say somewhere that 'people' (don't remember the definition) say that they need $233,000 a year to feel comfortable and safe. I actually don't disagree, though where you live has a HUGE impact.
More, the thing that gets me, is the amount of money, the 'burn rate', for just 'living' nowadays. Now, you don't really need a cellphone, or unlimited plans, or 10 different streaming services- but I get why people spend on them- or else, why live in the 21st century.
My wife and I make and spend a metric ass-load of money to live comfortably- but not extravagantly. What I consider to me a '1950s' style living. We don't sweat the bills. We take a nice vacation most summers. But we aren't members at the country club. My car is 9 years old, the wife's is 10. We eat out too much, but not crazy places. And we BURN money it seems to me.
Two big lottery prizes out there...
ChattanoogaPhil
07-09-23, 06:44
When I bought my first house when I was in my late 20s, I think my rate was 12%.
I was renting in a very questionable part of Ft Lauderdale and driving crap boxes. Did that for a LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG time until I had enough to put 8% down which I think was the minimum.
(snip)
Right. Sacrificing today for benefit tomorrow is a tried and true formula that applies to any generation.
That said, there's a lot more consumer temptation today than when I was starting out, particularly electronics with monthly wi-fi, cellular and other associated fees. Not to mention on-line shopping has made spending money easier than ever before.
40 years ago a guy could buy an old clunker for next to nothing. If it belched smoke ya just kept a quart of oil in the trunk. When lifting the hood I knew what I was looking at and could work on it. Not so with more modern vehicles. Many things were repairable, from watches to TVs. Not so much today. The examples are endless...
So yes, the old formula for getting ahead still holds true but I think it's fair to say that finances and life in general has become more complex for today's youth to navigate than prior generations. That's not an excuse for failure (our kids and grandkids have done well) but simply a recognition of change.
I'm looking at buying a new truck soon. My payment will priceline be near 1000 bucks a month, maybe even over depending on the price of the truck. Could I get a cheaper vehicle? Yes. But the ones I want are all over 60k and with trade in I'll be financing a little over 50k.
I bought a 4Runner over a year ago (one of the TRD versions). It was the first brand new vehicle I purchased from a dealership. At the time it stung having a $700 monthly payment, but I jumped on it considering this was peak car shortage crisis and I got 1.9% APR. Used versions with 40k + miles of the same exact 4Runner were only $1000 less, so buying new was a no brainer.
I don’t have any regrets today, the car is extremely well made. Outdated tech inside yes, but I love that there is almost nothing to go wrong. I know people with Teslas and the build quality on them is pretty poor; uneven gaps in body panels, rattling/vibrating noises etc.
teufelhund1918
07-09-23, 12:04
I bought a 2019 Chevy Trail Boss Silverado new. It was $41,000 when i bought it. That same truck except for it being 2023 model is now $79,000. So looking at buying it outright without trade and $5,000 down, monthly payments were $1600 for 5 years. If I traded my truck in for it, the payment would have been $1200 a month. I don't understand how or why people are paying that much for vehicles. I know a few folks who have taken out loans on a vehicle for 15 years.. it's a Ford F350000 super duty dualie that was over $100000. Most people will need a new vehicle before they pay it off leaving them with negative cash trade in value. Crazy.
I bought a 2019 Chevy Trail Boss Silverado new. It was $41,000 when i bought it. That same truck except for it being 2023 model is now $79,000. So looking at buying it outright without trade and $5,000 down, monthly payments were $1600 for 5 years. If I traded my truck in for it, the payment would have been $1200 a month. I don't understand how or why people are paying that much for vehicles. I know a few folks who have taken out loans on a vehicle for 15 years.. it's a Ford F350000 super duty dualie that was over $100000. Most people will need a new vehicle before they pay it off leaving them with negative cash trade in value. Crazy.
My neighbor works for a company that produces auto loan software for multiple credit unions and spends his week traveling to auto dealerships in a 3 state area. He sees a lot and told me that the number of people he has seen upside down on their auto loans has increased exponentially over the last year. One guy was $24,000 upside down on a GMC truck and couldn’t trade out of it. Even with gap insurance, which normally only goes up to 150% of the value, he would still owe money even if it was totaled.
StainlessSteelRat
07-09-23, 12:31
I'm very thankful for my paid-for 2012 Taco TRD. I was astounded that KBB says it's worth more than I paid for it. Apparently it's somewhat desirable, being the year b4 the giant touchscreen nonsense. I'm hoping it outlasts me.
ChattanoogaPhil
07-09-23, 13:26
I hemmed and hawed for a couple years before purchasing a new truck... but when I saw the new 2000 Toyota Tundra 4x4 I purchased it on the spot. Almost 300k miles later it still looks and drives great with only minor repairs during the past 23 years.
If you purchase a vehicle that REALLY fits what you're looking for and it's reliable you can save a TON of money keeping it compared to trading every few years. The dogs I've had over the years love to ride shotgun.
https://i.imgur.com/uF5SGJR.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/pLHqh7x.jpg
Payments of $1k or more for leasing a vehicle is fine provided of course, one has the income to sustain it. For middle income groups one can easily lease a reliable Camry or Corolla for 300-400/ month. Hyundais around 250. Unfortunately, most prefer vehicles that are cooler and beyond their means hence the fiscal hardship they bring upon themselves. For business purposes I lease a small suv (Macan S) for 2 yrs, and get new one every 2 years; but paid cash for my personal vehicle (Tesla Plaid) which I intend to keep for 5 years. Cars are disposable, easily replaceable items after all.
Right. Sacrificing today for benefit tomorrow is a tried and true formula that applies to any generation.
That said, there's a lot more consumer temptation today than when I was starting out, particularly electronics with monthly wi-fi, cellular and other associated fees. Not to mention on-line shopping has made spending money easier than ever before.
40 years ago a guy could buy an old clunker for next to nothing. If it belched smoke ya just kept a quart of oil in the trunk. When lifting the hood I knew what I was looking at and could work on it. Not so with more modern vehicles. Many things were repairable, from watches to TVs. Not so much today. The examples are endless...
So yes, the old formula for getting ahead still holds true but I think it's fair to say that finances and life in general has become more complex for today's youth to navigate than prior generations. That's not an excuse for failure (our kids and grandkids have done well) but simply a recognition of change.
Back then I remember people dropping their entire paycheck so they could have the full sports package on cable / satellite and then doing all the PPV add ons. Lots of people financing vehicles they couldn't actually afford and everything else went on clothes, jewelry and other status shit. I knew people who made the same amount of money I did but had to be seen in the trendy restaurants once a week so the people they grew up with wouldn't know they were basic.
The stupid crap to spend your money on has always existed. One of the biggest money flushes I've ever seen was the "start your own business" trap where people took all their savings, quit their job and opened Debbie's Muffin Shop in the mall because that can't possibly fail. So instead of building a down payment they funded a go nowhere business until it was time to file Chapter 7 and start life over from scratch. People who can't handle a day job but think they can run a business. Even worse were the people who managed to borrow start up money for something like Debbie's Muffin Shop and then have to pay it back after running it into the ground.
I didn't leave my day job until my business was making so much money it was insane for me to keep working my day job.
Just say somewhere that 'people' (don't remember the definition) say that they need $233,000 a year to feel comfortable and safe. I actually don't disagree, though where you live has a HUGE impact.
That is a major factor.
I just spent a week visiting my mother in rural Oklahoma where she retired. It's a nice smaller town of around 20k people. Has everything you need.
I started looking at houses for sale there out of curiosity.
A 2 bed 1 bath 1050 sq foot house on a smaller plot of land is under 50k dollars. It's an older house but is move in ready. A 3 bed 2 bath 1600 sq foot house that has been completely updated will run you 150-190k depending on the level of the updating and the size of the lot.
Big houses that would run close to or over a million in Phoenix are selling for 400-600k.
My mothers house is a 3 bed 2 bath house around 1700 sq foot on a 1/3 acre of land. It is an old house that was partially upgraded inside. She wanted an old house for the "charm" and wanted a little bit of a fixer upper that she could work on in retirement. She paid around 75k. The current value is around 100k.
If you want to live in a big city or a well known place, you're going to pay a lot of money. But you can still get a decent house for fairly cheap out in small towns.
Hell, I just went back on Realtor.com.
There is a 2 bed 1 bath 700 sq foot house for 26k that looks move in ready. If you want to buy a house that needs some work or a double wide, there are several in the mid teens.
Hell, I just went back on Realtor.com.
There is a 2 bed 1 bath 700 sq foot house for 26k that looks move in ready. If you want to buy a house that needs some work or a double wide, there are several in the mid teens.
Hell that's another one. That starter house I bought? It needed a crapload of work but I knew I could do everything.
People trying to buy their dreamhouse in the early 20s? If you don't already have a dream life, you may need a reality check.
I probably saved $20k on my first house by putting $10k of work into it. I also did a better job than most contractors would have. I wonder how many first time home buyers are even able to paint the exterior of a house? If they didn't work some kind of real job in high school, I doubt it.
Coal Dragger
07-09-23, 20:25
Prices are starting to come down a bit in my area. Higher interest rates are finally cooling the market. I need the Fed to raise rates a few more times to really cool things off. Then its time to go shopping for a rental and pay cash for it.
FromMyColdDeadHand
07-10-23, 00:03
Hell that's another one. That starter house I bought? It needed a crapload of work but I knew I could do everything.
People trying to buy their dreamhouse in the early 20s? If you don't already have a dream life, you may need a reality check.
I probably saved $20k on my first house by putting $10k of work into it. I also did a better job than most contractors would have. I wonder how many first time home buyers are even able to paint the exterior of a house? If they didn't work some kind of real job in high school, I doubt it.
I painted houses in college, and worked at a bunch of hardware stores through high school and college. So if I haven’t done work around the house, I actually know how to do it, or at the very least, what tools to use. :-).
When we bought our current house, we had to replace the HVAC units. The guy installing them found me underneath the kitchen sink replacing the garbage disposal. I didn’t think very much of it, but he commented that most of the people whose houses he works on would have no idea how to install a garbage disposal. 15 years later, it still works.
I painted houses in college, and worked at a bunch of hardware stores through high school and college. So if I haven’t done work around the house, I actually know how to do it, or at the very least, what tools to use. :-).
When we bought our current house, we had to replace the HVAC units. The guy installing them found me underneath the kitchen sink replacing the garbage disposal. I didn’t think very much of it, but he commented that most of the people whose houses he works on would have no idea how to install a garbage disposal. 15 years later, it still works.
That's what I'm talking about.
While I know a HVAC is beyond me, I installed a garbage disposal when I bought my first house. Once I got the flange thing in the sink done, the rest was kind of easy. I basically went by the picture on the box.
I figured out outlets with a $10 Home Depot guide book and from there I was replacing light fixtures with ceiling fans (which included light fixtures) in every room. I taught this stuff to one of my students who was about 10 years younger than me and it was like I gave him a free car. He was shopping online for cool ceiling fans like a girl buying shoes.
ThirdWatcher
07-10-23, 06:50
After Ploesti, there were thousands of US airmen on the ground. He isn't the only one who did what he did, he just got lucky...
Fascinating story about your Grandfather. Was he transferred out of the ETO when he returned to Italy? (You said he flew in B29’s, which would be PTO and I’ve read it was common for the AAF to transfer airmen who returned in case they were shot down again and captured.)
Averageman
07-10-23, 07:28
I think a lot of us can look at an older House and see the potential, but when it comes to having the skill set and money to do the job... A lot of guys who grew up in single parent homes never had those experiances with a Dad that allowed them to learn.
I force fed my Son mechanics and he hated it, but I knew he needed to learn some skills before I kicked him out of the nest. I can proudly say he changed the water pump in his truck a couple of weeks ago and gave me a call to thank me for making him learn. A couple of summers ago he and I rebuilt the fence in the backyard. and did some plumbing changing out a toliet a while back.
You guys, just like the handling of Firearms, you've got to take the time to pass these skills on to someone.
Fascinating story about your Grandfather. Was he transferred out of the ETO when he returned to Italy? (You said he flew in B29’s, which would be PTO and I’ve read it was common for the AAF to transfer airmen who returned in case they were shot down again and captured.)
Not only did he stay in Italy (15th AAF) he kept flying missions and not long after he returned they got Schweinfurt where they got shot up and he had to bail behind enemy lines again. There is a notion that once you've had to escape you don't fly again because you might know too much about underground networks of escape. But they flew him several more times and this time he was trying to hide IN Germany. He again managed to avoid capture and somehow made it back to his base in Italy but I don't have most of the details on that event.
There is a story associated with it that eventually became funny. Remembering how hard it was to get out of a burning and falling aircraft in Romania, and he told me the only reason he got out is because his hand was on a hydraulic line that he knew ran over the door which is the only way he found the door (most of his original crew did not get out of the plane in time), he was running that top turret with a foot on the ladder so when the pilot was calling out dead engines and gave the bail out order he was at the bottom of the ladder and out of the plane. Told me he got his parachute open and looked back at his plane to count parachutes and in his words "those jackasses were able to spin the fan and get an engine restarted and flew home."
He was the only one from his plane to bail out. It does seem the second time he was found by the underground much sooner and didn't have to spend weeks at a time walking through the woods by himself trying to figure out what he was gonna eat. Again, the fact that his father had grown up in Germany and my grandfather spoke fluent German seems to have gone a long way towards saving his ass and making it easier for support networks to get him out of the country.
Old Man Edit: B-24s, not 29s.
There are plenty of folks with more car than house.
Free Country just don’t ask me to bail yo ass out. Actions need to start having consequences again.
Averageman
07-10-23, 19:43
There are plenty of folks with more car than house.
Free Country just don’t ask me to bail yo ass out. Actions need to start having consequences again.
We could go cruise the trailer park...
Rifleman_04
07-10-23, 20:43
We could go cruise the trailer park...
That is such a ridiculously interesting phenomena.
There are plenty of folks with more car than house.
Free Country just don’t ask me to bail yo ass out. Actions need to start having consequences again.
In Florida I once saw a Lambo in front of a 2:1 house working class neighborhood. I always wondered how they manged the maintenance on such things.
Coal Dragger
07-11-23, 01:55
So let me get this straight, there are guys out there who can’t figure out how to take out or install a garbage disposal? I’ve done that several times, and it wasn’t that difficult.
I’ve also taught myself how to do basic drywall repairs, tile work, some carpentry, some basic electrical stuff, replace hot water heaters, some basic plumbing, and other homeowner grade tasks. I’ve also helped hang siding, install and plumb doors, and install and plumb windows.
I’m not even that handy. If I can figure it out anyone can. What in the hell is wrong with people?
So let me get this straight, there are guys out there who can’t figure out how to take out or install a garbage disposal? I’ve done that several times, and it wasn’t that difficult.
I’ve also taught myself how to do basic drywall repairs, tile work, some carpentry, some basic electrical stuff, replace hot water heaters, some basic plumbing, and other homeowner grade tasks. I’ve also helped hang siding, install and plumb doors, and install and plumb windows.
I’m not even that handy. If I can figure it out anyone can. What in the hell is wrong with people?
I think some folks were talking about original install of a garbage disposal which is slightly harder than replacing one that's gone bad. But yeah, it's amazing what a basic Home Depot book and poverty can teach you in terms of repairs and improvements. Same thing with cars, I always bought a Chilton's manual with every car. If I could look at the part and look at an exploded illustration, I could usually figure it out.
I had a neighbor who taught me how to do brakes, all of it not just replacing the pads and from that point on I was both thrilled and angry. I could do a full brake job including new rotors (because turning them is for losers) for about $150 when shops had been charging me $400 to just swap out pads. Once I had a bad caliper and the repair was $600. Lesson learned.
You need a full tune up, gonna be $800. Really thanks, 8 plugs a wire kit and a new rotor was usually about $75 bucks. Put color coded electrical tape on the wires you replace so you don't screw up the order and make sure you gap your plugs correctly. An hours work and I saved $700.
Once I learned how to do sheetrock helping my neighbor do his garage I was really saving money. But the best was when I had to replace an entire stucco wall. Demo was easy. Putting up boards, even around windows was mostly easy. Adding lath (especially because I spray painted to locations of the 2x4s under the boards was easy. But I had never pulled stucco before. Popped on YT University and watched some videos. Did some practice mixes until I got the consistency right and I was pulling stucco damn near perfectly from bottom to top of wall. Really hard work and you can't make big mistakes. Spent all day doing a 24 foot section of my house and blending it with the next wall. I also did smooth stucco not that textured crap that hides your mistakes. I learned how to make smooth repairs and joints without pulling half of it off of your house.
Saved me about $8,000 with materials only coming to about $500.
Was smart enough to just leave it alone for 10 days. When I painted, I had the best looking walls in the neighborhood.
Some things I know I can't do and I'm not gonna be able to learn them, but most home repairs aren't rocket science. I wish I could do copper pipe, but I just can't, I'm really bad at it and I know not to waste any more time.
ThirdWatcher
07-11-23, 04:58
Not only did he stay in Italy (15th AAF) he kept flying missions and not long after he returned they got Schweinfurt where they got shot up and he had to bail behind enemy lines again...
This would make a good movie...
Some things I know I can't do and I'm not gonna be able to learn them, but most home repairs aren't rocket science. I wish I could do copper pipe, but I just can't, I'm really bad at it and I know not to waste any more time.
I struggled with Cu pipe until a plumber showed me the wonder bread trick.
Some things are at a scale where you are better off writing the check.
I’m having a gun vault built into half my basement. Sealing and humidity control require special work and knowledge. It won’t be cheap, but it will be done correctly and not turn all my guns into rust buckets.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230711/78ceeb7846f48ad9d23d8a6d05984226.jpg
This would make a good movie...
Probably would but...
I don't have the time, money and patience to deal with all the people I'd have to endure to see such a project happen and it's likely they'd turn it into a story line where two of the guys who didn't make it out of the plane died trying to save each other because they were gay lovers.
My grandfather has long passed and I wouldn't be able to go to him for additional information or to verify details and I'd hate to get anything wrong.
Lots of families have self published books about their grandparents who served in the war and had significant experiences and ones like my grandfather aren't common but they happened enough and lots of guys who did even more extraordinary things aren't getting their stories turned into movies.
My grandfathers bomber group published a newsletter during the 80s and I have most of them and the stories in those are downright unreal.
My grandfathers bomber group published a newsletter during the 80s and I have most of them and the stories in those are downright unreal.
If you are free to reproduce those I would be interested in reading them.
You guys can have finishing drywall. I have a guy for that. I'll hang it all day long, and I'll paint, but my patience can't handle finishing drywall. Everything else involved in construction is fair game; I do it all from the dirt work to the roof. YouTube is an amazing source of an amazing array of fix it and building stuff. I will say that having a business where I can write off tools and equipment from my taxes has a huge benefit when it comes to my success in fixing and building all manner of things.
FromMyColdDeadHand
07-12-23, 06:32
I struggled with Cu pipe until a plumber showed me the wonder bread trick.
Some things are at a scale where you are better off writing the check.
I’m having a gun vault built into half my basement. Sealing and humidity control require special work and knowledge. It won’t be cheap, but it will be done correctly and not turn all my guns into rust buckets.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230711/78ceeb7846f48ad9d23d8a6d05984226.jpg
That’s just like my gun room, except that’s its a closet, and the floor is covered in gun bags….
You guys can have finishing drywall. I have a guy for that. I'll hang it all day long, and I'll paint, but my patience can't handle finishing drywall. Everything else involved in construction is fair game; I do it all from the dirt work to the roof. YouTube is an amazing source of an amazing array of fix it and building stuff. I will say that having a business where I can write off tools and equipment from my taxes has a huge benefit when it comes to my success in fixing and building all manner of things.
The right tool, a-men brother. The first time I used a hammer drill instead of a regular drill to drill some holes in concrete… it will change your life.
America’s Middle Class Housing Crisis
https://amgreatness.com/2023/07/06/americas-middle-class-housing-crisis/
Record number of car buyers paying $1,000+ per month amid low vehicle inventory
https://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/2023/07/03/car-payments-inventory-interest-rates/70378655007/
Real estate market is crazy, auto market is crazy... I’m just wondering who these fools are that’s paying a $1000/mth. For cars and trucks right now.
I know repos are approaching 2008/09 levels but the job market is equally crazy. 6 open spots for every applicant. That’s going to keep wages up no matter what the fed does. We could be looking at 80’s level interest rates before all’s said and done. :eek:
While we all know costs of most things are up, while income has not kept pace. Having said that, per bolded, etc, we also see many complaining they can't make ends meat paying 1k for a car bill, latest greatest phones, etc, etc. I do Ok for myself, own several houses outright, a small boat, etc, and my car payment is well under $500, and I drive a loaded VW Tiguan, off brand but good phone, etc. I pay attention to ongoing costs I don't need, live a decent life. I see kids with latest great Iphone all the time. So per usual, there's two sides to this issue.
While we all know costs of most things are up, while income has not kept pace. Having said that, per bolded, etc, we also see many complaining they can't make ends meat paying 1k for a car bill, latest greatest phones, etc, etc. I do Ok for myself, own several houses outright, a small boat, etc, and my car payment is well under $500, and I drive a loaded VW Tiguan, off brand but good phone, etc. I pay attention to ongoing costs I don't need, live a decent life. I see kids with latest great Iphone all the time. So per usual, there's two sides to this issue.
I don't think it's just me when I say consumerism has gone completely bonkers. I can see where today's youth are somewhat indifferent about home ownership or other tangible property. They can live at home forever and as long as they've got the latest go-fast screen to focus on, nothing else really seems that important. Society doesn't give much incentive to succeed in life when everything's so expensive now. Expectations are unrealistic and quite frankly, the house of cards can only stand for so long.
I never thought I'd feel insecure about our own future with what we've saved so far. We own our 2100 sq ft home outright, sitting on an acre with a matching 26'x30' shop. My truck has been paid off for several years and hasn't hit 40k yet. We've got $6k left to pay off my wife's SUV and it doesn't even have 10k on it yet. My dream boat is paid off and so is pretty much everything else we'd want. We originally thought about going for a Mercedes Sprinter RV and having it paid off by retirement, but this economy and the direction our country seems to be turning has me spooked. Even if I could pay cash, I'm not sure I wanna spend that kind of money on the chance it might become another albatross around our necks if things get bad. :(
Adrenaline_6
07-13-23, 13:40
The right tool, a-men brother. The first time I used a hammer drill instead of a regular drill to drill some holes in concrete… it will change your life.
Wait until you experience a rotary hammer with SDS bits. You will never use a hammer drill again (especially in engineered concrete).
ChattanoogaPhil
07-13-23, 13:47
Reading some of you guys talking about household repairs and such...
In my 20s I did many of those type things as a financial necessity.
In my 40s I did many of those type things for personal satisfaction.
In my 60s... F it. I ain't crawling under the sink.
Adrenaline_6
07-13-23, 14:02
Reading some of you guys talking about household repairs and such...
In my 20s I did many of those type things as a financial necessity.
In my 40s I did many of those type things for personal satisfaction.
In my 60s... F it. I ain't crawling under the sink.
I feel ya. I don't mind working on my vehicle - it's more of a personal satisfaction and making sure it's done right. Most other things = You can make more money. You cannot make more time.
We paid 312 for our house in 2019. In 20 our realtor said she’d get us 400 for it. May of 22 she said she’d get us 525 CASH! No way in hell we’re selling. We’d have to go buy something else and we would be buying into the same type of level of place but with a higher interest rate. Screw that.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
ChattanoogaPhil
07-16-23, 07:13
Rising home prices translates to nothing good for me... just higher property taxes and insurance premiums. That said, the real estate market is starting to cool here. Last June a home stayed on the market only 9 days. This June was 25 days while there were fewer homes for sale than in 2022. I expect prices to follow.
In related news, Harley is crying the blues because they can't find enough repo workers to collect all the bikes they financed to folks not making their payments.
The market can't cool fast enough for me. My wife and I have been waiting for things to calm down so we could get a house or even just land to build on, and as things are now, that's not even remote possibility. Even with a VA home loan.
Averageman
07-16-23, 08:48
Illinois is forcing Landlords to rent to illegal immigrents.
Now, just how topsy turvy would you care to go, because renting to an illegal used to be a crime. Now. they will call you out and move them in like it or not.
Wait until you experience a rotary hammer with SDS bits. You will never use a hammer drill again (especially in engineered concrete).
All depends on hole size. If you're just drilling pilot holes for tapcons, or just one or two holes under 1/2", a M18 cordless hammer drill does just fine. After SDS you can step up to SDS Max :D
Illinois is forcing Landlords to rent to illegal immigrents.
Now, just how topsy turvy would you care to go, because renting to an illegal used to be a crime. Now. they will call you out and move them in like it or not.
I need more killdozer.
ChattanoogaPhil
07-16-23, 15:29
Illinois is forcing Landlords to rent to illegal immigrents.
Now, just how topsy turvy would you care to go, because renting to an illegal used to be a crime. Now. they will call you out and move them in like it or not.
Yup…. so-called Immigration status is now a protected class according to Illinois law. Total and complete disgrace.
I have always been of the mind that as a property owner I should be able to rent or sell to whomever I chose, using whatever criteria I choose, including to not rent or sell as I see fit.
DeSantis and Abbot had the right idea but didn’t make it personal enough. Trump ought to buy properties next door to Biden, Obama, Pelosi and Kamala, then run a for rent ad with special discounts for the “undocumented” homeless. $1/mo per person including free yard tents.
Adrenaline_6
07-17-23, 09:30
All depends on hole size. If you're just drilling pilot holes for tapcons, or just one or two holes under 1/2", a M18 cordless hammer drill does just fine. After SDS you can step up to SDS Max :D
Drilling a pilot hole with a regular hammer drill for just a 3/16" tapcon in Engineered concrete takes a lot longer than the job should. It's like using a standard drill in concrete. A rotary hammer makes short work of it. Huge difference in time, battery use, and wear and tear on the tool itself. A cordless Makita rotary was one of the best buys I ever did for a tool upgrade.
I agree about forcing people to rent. That is aiding a known criminal isn't it?
Our housing market is still hot. Three homes in my neighborhood were off the market within days of being listed, and sold at or above list price. Our area seems to be a bit different; we still have a lot of people moving in, we still have a lot of building and new construction. We've been immune to the housing woes of previous years. Not saying it won't/can't happen, just that it hasn't.
Averageman
07-17-23, 11:57
Oddly enough the market here is almost restricted to new housing, older homes sit on the market a hot minute.
Looking at it, I would believe it to be smarter to buy a home that's 10-20 years old that has been well cared for rather than new construction.
In Florida I once saw a Lambo in front of a 2:1 house working class neighborhood. I always wondered how they manged the maintenance on such things.
Drove by one of my rentals a couple of weeks ago (in south Florida) and saw a lambo parked out front. 2800 rental. Nice guy and never paid late but when he rented his application stated he worked at a supermarket. Not lambo money. Turns out he bought it to rent out on turo. It pays for itself and then some. Plus he drives it when it’s not rented. Smart guy…
Our housing market is still hot. Three homes in my neighborhood were off the market within days of being listed, and sold at or above list price. Our area seems to be a bit different; we still have a lot of people moving in, we still have a lot of building and new construction. We've been immune to the housing woes of previous years. Not saying it won't/can't happen, just that it hasn't.
South and central Florida still hot and prices still going up. Wife had several listing the last 2 months that sold within 3 days. I’m still amazed at the people buying at what I keep thinking is the top.
ad_infinitum
07-18-23, 15:50
That is a major factor.
I just spent a week visiting my mother in rural Oklahoma where she retired. It's a nice smaller town of around 20k people. Has everything you need.
I started looking at houses for sale there out of curiosity.
A 2 bed 1 bath 1050 sq foot house on a smaller plot of land is under 50k dollars. It's an older house but is move in ready. A 3 bed 2 bath 1600 sq foot house that has been completely updated will run you 150-190k depending on the level of the updating and the size of the lot.
Big houses that would run close to or over a million in Phoenix are selling for 400-600k.
My mothers house is a 3 bed 2 bath house around 1700 sq foot on a 1/3 acre of land. It is an old house that was partially upgraded inside. She wanted an old house for the "charm" and wanted a little bit of a fixer upper that she could work on in retirement. She paid around 75k. The current value is around 100k.
If you want to live in a big city or a well known place, you're going to pay a lot of money. But you can still get a decent house for fairly cheap out in small towns.
Prices drastically drop when you out outside of the commuting distance to major metro areas. 3+ hours. But there are no jobs in rural America. Not viable ones and what you typically get in podunk wasteland is locals fighting over $9/hour jobs in the local Home Depos 1 hour away.
That's why these houses cost what they do. There is nothing within 800 miles. And even the nearest large metro center is kind of a backwater. Looking at IT, there are nowhere near as many jobs in Kansas City as there are in Chicago or Northern Virginia. The payscale is much lower too, they can justify it using cheap real estate.
IME, you are much better off making good coin in a large metro area (DC area, Chicago, the west coast) and living well below your means to eventually afford something.
But I don't know. If my source of income drops to zero, I would consider middle of nowhere, Oklahoma.
That may have been redefined after covid
ad_infinitum
07-18-23, 16:02
Right. Sacrificing today for benefit tomorrow is a tried and true formula that applies to any generation.
So yes, the old formula for getting ahead still holds true but I think it's fair to say that finances and life in general has become more complex for today's youth to navigate than prior generations. That's not an excuse for failure (our kids and grandkids have done well) but simply a recognition of change.
The old formula for getting ahead is going into debt as much as possible because it pays off. For example with real estate. It doesn't matter what the house costs. The only thing that matters is that it will go up. Buy for 800K, sell for 1.2mil.
I do wonder, however, when that cycle will stop - and logic suggests that it will stop, that the inflation trend cannot last indefinitely. I thought it was overpriced around 2000 or 2008 and certainly 5 years ago, only to be proven wrong time and again.
I have never gone into debt all my life and ended up getting severely penalized for it. Meaning with regards to real estate, not depreciating assets like cars.
but yes, the middle class is absolutely destroyed by rising rental rates on one end and insane housing costs when buying. it's really hard to enter the market, increasingly so. It's hard with a good IT job. I have no idea how those who make $15 or even $30 make it in very expensive metro areas.
Averageman
07-18-23, 16:03
Prices drastically drop when you out outside of the commuting distance to major metro areas. 3+ hours. But there are no jobs in rural America. Not viable ones and what you typically get in podunk wasteland is locals fighting over $9/hour jobs in the local Home Depos 1 hour away.
That's why these houses cost what they do. There is nothing within 800 miles. And even the nearest large metro center is kind of a backwater. Looking at IT, there are nowhere near as many jobs in Kansas City as there are in Chicago or Northern Virginia. The payscale is much lower too, they can justify it using cheap real estate.
IME, you are much better off making good coin in a large metro area (DC area, Chicago, the west coast) and living well below your means to eventually afford something.
But I don't know. If my source of income drops to zero, I would consider middle of nowhere, Oklahoma.
That may have been redefined after covid
My First House was a fixer upper, I got out of it and only had like 14 payments left, but I took my cash and immeadiatly found another House.
The second time around I got treated very well by the finance company, far better than the first house. I immeadiatly reinvested and now have this House paid off. What I'm trying to get at is sometimes you suck it up and buy a house and get F'ed one way or another, usually financing, but you refinance and get a better loan in a year.
The thing is though life is so much easier when you have to have a history of Home Ownership, You kind of have to, to be treated seriously by these people.
ad_infinitum
07-18-23, 16:08
My First House was a fixer upper, I got out of it and only had like 14 payments left, but I took my cash and immeadiatly found another House.
The second time around I got treated very well by the finance company, far better than the first house. I immeadiatly reinvested and now have this House paid off. What I'm trying to get at is sometimes you suck it up and buy a house and get F'ed one way or another, usually financing, but you refinance and get a better loan in a year.
The thing is though life is so much easier when you have to have a history of Home Ownership, You kind of have to, to be treated seriously by these people.
Right.. that was then and this is now. And now has no relevance to 1980, or to 1992, or to any other year that preceded today.
In one word, inflation. I have a suspicion RE is not going up at all, it's the dollar that's crashing. If you look around, everything else is going up at basically the same rate.
The 'dollar' is crashing and people invest in RE and other things. That's one explanation.
The other thing to keep in mind. When banks loan you 'money', they don't really loan you anything, they create it out of thin air, basically which means it's highly inflationary.
Right.. that was then and this is now. And now has no relevance to 1980, or to 1992, or to any other year that preceded today.
In one word, inflation. I have a suspicion RE is not going up at all, it's the dollar that's crashing. If you look around, everything else is going up at basically the same rate.
The 'dollar' is crashing and people invest in RE and other things. That's one explanation.
The other thing to keep in mind. When banks loan you 'money', they don't really loan you anything, they create it out of thin air, basically which means it's highly inflationary.
A more significant real world factor is Wall Street has been heavily investing in real estate and since they've been on a "forever" bailout status since the last crash, Wall Street investors are buying single family homes as a commodity since they basically can't lose. So all those first time home buyers are bidding against Wall Street, Wall Street has a safety net and first time home buyers do not.
And this isn't a case of buying blocks of mortgages like in the past, this is Wall Street buying single family homes on the open market. That is what is new and different. The big question is will Wall Street cash out when the price is right or become "forever" land lords making private property even more rare and expensive.
Coal Dragger
07-18-23, 20:07
Prices drastically drop when you out outside of the commuting distance to major metro areas. 3+ hours. But there are no jobs in rural America. Not viable ones and what you typically get in podunk wasteland is locals fighting over $9/hour jobs in the local Home Depos 1 hour away.
That's why these houses cost what they do. There is nothing within 800 miles. And even the nearest large metro center is kind of a backwater. Looking at IT, there are nowhere near as many jobs in Kansas City as there are in Chicago or Northern Virginia. The payscale is much lower too, they can justify it using cheap real estate.
IME, you are much better off making good coin in a large metro area (DC area, Chicago, the west coast) and living well below your means to eventually afford something.
But I don't know. If my source of income drops to zero, I would consider middle of nowhere, Oklahoma.
That may have been redefined after covid
You should get out more.
I live in a “podunk” area as you want to stereotype it, and moved here from a fast growing metro area over 15 years ago. I’m also making way more than $9/hour LOL.
If I had to break down my pay into an average hourly rate it’s somewhere in the $50.00/hr range before overtime if my day goes past 8 hours on a shorter trip, or 11 hours on a longer run. Fairly often I complete my trip (RR engineer) in less time than the trip rate calls for before OT starts. Pushing my hourly rate closer $75-$100/hour on a good day.
Being willing to work jobs that are inconvenient often makes money. I work on call 24/7, and have developed a skill set that is very specialized. Last I checked there are approximately 20,000 of us in the US.
Salary.com says my salary would be 24% higher in NYC, but cost of living would be 86% higher. San Francisco would be a 30% bump, but col would double. Even places like Raleigh, Atlanta or Nashville would not be financially beneficial, all things considered.
The only downside I can see to being in “podunk” America, is that my retirement choices are more restrictive. I can’t sell a crappy place in a high end city and retire to a McMansion somewhere with a low cost of living. It’s not really a negative for me because I wouldn’t want to live in one of those costly places now, or when I retire.
Prices drastically drop when you out outside of the commuting distance to major metro areas. 3+ hours. But there are no jobs in rural America. Not viable ones and what you typically get in podunk wasteland is locals fighting over $9/hour jobs in the local Home Depos 1 hour away.
That's why these houses cost what they do. There is nothing within 800 miles. And even the nearest large metro center is kind of a backwater. Looking at IT, there are nowhere near as many jobs in Kansas City as there are in Chicago or Northern Virginia. The payscale is much lower too, they can justify it using cheap real estate.
IME, you are much better off making good coin in a large metro area (DC area, Chicago, the west coast) and living well below your means to eventually afford something.
But I don't know. If my source of income drops to zero, I would consider middle of nowhere, Oklahoma.
That may have been redefined after covid
How was I not surprised to see the second bolded part after the first snarky bolded one? Anything you'd like to add? Maybe "Flyover Country" or such? How humble and un-arrogant of you.
A more significant real world factor is Wall Street has been heavily investing in real estate and since they've been on a "forever" bailout status since the last crash, Wall Street investors are buying single family homes as a commodity since they basically can't lose. So all those first time home buyers are bidding against Wall Street, Wall Street has a safety net and first time home buyers do not.
And this isn't a case of buying blocks of mortgages like in the past, this is Wall Street buying single family homes on the open market. That is what is new and different. The big question is will Wall Street cash out when the price is right or become "forever" land lords making private property even more rare and expensive.
We just bought a house last year, our first one, and this is extremely true. It's also coming from "the great migration." We were up against people from states where housing prices skyrocketed because of investment companies scooping up homes, so my wife and I with our little VA loan didn't stand a chance against people paying cash after they just sold their million dollar California homes. The only reason we landed this one is because the previous owner is a former Marine who really wanted to sell to another vet. He probably could have gotten a lot more than he was asking and I'll be forever grateful to him.
FromMyColdDeadHand
07-19-23, 17:15
A more significant real world factor is Wall Street has been heavily investing in real estate and since they've been on a "forever" bailout status since the last crash, Wall Street investors are buying single family homes as a commodity since they basically can't lose. So all those first time home buyers are bidding against Wall Street, Wall Street has a safety net and first time home buyers do not.
And this isn't a case of buying blocks of mortgages like in the past, this is Wall Street buying single family homes on the open market. That is what is new and different. The big question is will Wall Street cash out when the price is right or become "forever" land lords making private property even more rare and expensive.
All bad scenarios. The one outcome I see is if the valuation on properties starts to fall, or they can get better returns somewhere else, they will start to dump properties- fast and hard so as to get out as much as they can- while real home owners will have to ride it down.
Or they just sort of ‘monopoly’ it and rent those houses as high rates as their lobbyists get govt to restrict new homes, or restrict you to crappy energy boxes.
Coal Dragger
07-19-23, 17:17
The other scenario that should happen is that Wall Street doesn’t get a bailout when the market goes tits up.
We just bought a house last year, our first one, and this is extremely true. It's also coming from "the great migration." We were up against people from states where housing prices skyrocketed because of investment companies scooping up homes, so my wife and I with our little VA loan didn't stand a chance against people paying cash after they just sold their million dollar California homes. The only reason we landed this one is because the previous owner is a former Marine who really wanted to sell to another vet. He probably could have gotten a lot more than he was asking and I'll be forever grateful to him.
in 2018 three of our "safety houses" sold while we were looking at two others, a BIG factor in getting the one I got is it was listed as "By Owner" and they had a short window to get out and have the money for the next place. A bunch of things just feel into place and I moved on it fast before anyone else even saw the listing.
The other scenario that should happen is that Wall Street doesn’t get a bailout when the market goes tits up.
There is basically a feature in place where "from now on" Wall Street will get bailed out no matter what. It comes down to the fact that Wall Street will put stock prices in crisis mode if they don't get what amounts to economic immunity.
There is basically a feature in place where "from now on" Wall Street will get bailed out no matter what. It comes down to the fact that Wall Street will put stock prices in crisis mode if they don't get what amounts to economic immunity.
If they're too big to fail, they're too big to control.
There is basically a feature in place where "from now on" Wall Street will get bailed out no matter what. It comes down to the fact that Wall Street will put stock prices in crisis mode if they don't get what amounts to economic immunity.
Imperialism... could Lenin have been a bit too phrophetic? :eek:
ChattanoogaPhil
07-23-23, 07:45
No need for a sky-high mortgage payment. After 20 years of living on the street, Rodney says because of his new 3D-printed home he can finally go to school to pursue his dreams.
https://i.imgur.com/sDKiuYI.png
No need for a sky-high mortgage payment. After 20 years of living on the street, Rodney says because of his new 3D-printed home he can finally go to school to pursue his dreams.
https://i.imgur.com/sDKiuYI.png
Better than a tent. I hope he actually has his shit together enough to finish high school or whatever he's attempting.
Salary.com says my salary would be 24% higher in NYC, but cost of living would be 86% higher. San Francisco would be a 30% bump, but col would double. Even places like Raleigh, Atlanta or Nashville would not be financially beneficial, all things considered.
The only downside I can see to being in “podunk” America, is that my retirement choices are more restrictive. I can’t sell a crappy place in a high end city and retire to a McMansion somewhere with a low cost of living. It’s not really a negative for me because I wouldn’t want to live in one of those costly places now, or when I retire.
One thing we see in SC is a massive influx of dudes from Ohio, New Jersey and New York. They retire with their relatively high salaries and come down here in droves. They’re as invasive as kudzu. My house value keeps going up, but at what price?
One thing we see in SC is a massive influx of dudes from Ohio, New Jersey and New York. They retire with their relatively high salaries and come down here in droves. They’re as invasive as kudzu. My house value keeps going up, but at what price?
We tried to jump in 2007/2008 before the crash from South Florida with the disparity of housing prices before the crash. Was looking as some seriously nice houses in Greenville but the bottom fell out and I had to stay put for 10 years in order for the market to recover and then I got out ASAP but ended up in small town Iowa. Probably for the best in the end, but it really sucked to have your life in boxes ready for a move and then because of the "flip this house" idiots who thought putting $20 grand in a fixer upper should result in a $150k profit to bottom falls out.
We didn't unpack half our stuff so it stayed boxed up for 10 years. Was also hard to stay in Florida when he had taken so many steps to leave but the alternative was worse. We had been in that house for 20 years and would have basically surrendered all of our equity on a house that was 80% paid off.
One thing we see in SC is a massive influx of dudes from Ohio, New Jersey and New York. They retire with their relatively high salaries and come down here in droves. They’re as invasive as kudzu. My house value keeps going up, but at what price?
I am from SC (moved there when I was 10) and still have friends and family there- everyone says the folks from OH are overrunning the state. I have a college buddy that owns a contracting company that builds multi-million dollar homes on one of the resort islands who will not take any business from anyone from OH. He flat out turns them down.
I am from SC (moved there when I was 10) and still have friends and family there- everyone says the folks from OH are overrunning the state. I have a college buddy that owns a contracting company that builds multi-million dollar homes on one of the resort islands who will not take any business from anyone from OH. He flat out turns them down.
Seemed like a really nice place, I kept getting caught off guard by how polite everyone was (Greenville / Spartanburg area). And I mean regular folks in grocery stores, restaurants, etc. I hope all the people influxing in from NY, NJ, FL and such are sticking to the more urban areas and not changing things too bad. When I was there in 2007 they already had the name "Floridiots" floating around and given some of my neighbors and the people I was trying to leave behind, I can't blame them.
Seemed like a really nice place, I kept getting caught off guard by how polite everyone was (Greenville / Spartanburg area). And I mean regular folks in grocery stores, restaurants, etc. I hope all the people influxing in from NY, NJ, FL and such are sticking to the more urban areas and not changing things too bad. When I was there in 2007 they already had the name "Floridiots" floating around and given some of my neighbors and the people I was trying to leave behind, I can't blame them.
My parents still live in Beaufort so I go back there to visit. Driving around, going to stores and just generally meeting people I can say it isn’t the same small town from 30-40 years ago (but where is?). Overly crowded, traffic outrageous, house prices through the roof and just a general aloofness from the residents that wasn’t always there. I used to think I would move back there after I retire- I still love the Lowcountry- but decided that I will just stay in my little corner of Tennessee.
Seemed like a really nice place, I kept getting caught off guard by how polite everyone was (Greenville / Spartanburg area). And I mean regular folks in grocery stores, restaurants, etc. I hope all the people influxing in from NY, NJ, FL and such are sticking to the more urban areas and not changing things too bad. When I was there in 2007 they already had the name "Floridiots" floating around and given some of my neighbors and the people I was trying to leave behind, I can't blame them.
Small world, we just moved to this area. Everyone is still polite. Feels like we landed in a small slice of paradise.
We aren't from anywhere. Don't think I've ever lived anywhere more than four years or so, but we aren't moving after this.
Small world, we just moved to this area. Everyone is still polite. Feels like we landed in a small slice of paradise.
We aren't from anywhere. Don't think I've ever lived anywhere more than four years or so, but we aren't moving after this.
It really was pretty. Only reason we ended up in Iowa instead is that is where my family was originally from, lots of friends and everyplace I go tends to remind me of someone. But from 2006-2007 I literally scouted the entire country for what I thought would be the best place to live based upon population size, average temps (I love open window weather), cost of living / home prices and other quality of life considerations and I arrived at Greenville, SC.
I sorta wish Iowa had some of the mountain features that SC does.
My parents still live in Beaufort so I go back there to visit. Driving around, going to stores and just generally meeting people I can say it isn’t the same small town from 30-40 years ago (but where is?). Overly crowded, traffic outrageous, house prices through the roof and just a general aloofness from the residents that wasn’t always there. I used to think I would move back there after I retire- I still love the Lowcountry- but decided that I will just stay in my little corner of Tennessee.
I knew I got lucky with my small town in Iowa. I was coming out of the grocery store trying to manage four 12 packs of soda (because I generally think I'm capable of doing things when I should have used a cart) when OF COURSE one of them opened up at the end and pop cans went rolling down the parking lot. To my amazement four different people retrieved them and walked with me to my car.
If that had been South Florida, 4 people would have grabbed soda cans and ran, 2 others would have been kicked across the parking lot and 8 people would have laughed at me.
One of the shittiest things I ever saw in Florida was somebody had a white / white BMW convertible in a parking lot and some shitbird threw a cherry slurpie in it. You work hard to have nice things and that is the kind of crap people pull. No place is perfect but South Florida was really testing my "keep walking, maybe you don't have to shoot this person" limits.
My parents still live in Beaufort so I go back there to visit. Driving around, going to stores and just generally meeting people I can say it isn’t the same small town from 30-40 years ago (but where is?). Overly crowded, traffic outrageous, house prices through the roof and just a general aloofness from the residents that wasn’t always there. I used to think I would move back there after I retire- I still love the Lowcountry- but decided that I will just stay in my little corner of Tennessee.
BEW-fert (as opposed to BOW-fert, NC) is one of my favorite places in the south. Gorgeous area. The pronunciation of the towns is one of the easiest ways to find out if someone is not a native. Ironically, Beaufort, NC, is also one of my favorite places in the south; I am from that area. Before my mom moved to Texas we'd go down for a few days every year or so and stay with some friends. I haven't been since the late-90s.
One thing we see in SC is a massive influx of dudes from Ohio, New Jersey and New York. They retire with their relatively high salaries and come down here in droves. They’re as invasive as kudzu. My house value keeps going up, but at what price?
Honestly? A price that's too high. I'm close enough that all I think about these days is retirement. I'd still prefer to live in an area that has a sense of community, safety, respect and politeness. When I retire? All I need is a lake to fish in, some decent places to walk/hike and a reasonably close store to buy essentials. Oh, some peace and quiet are pretty essential too. :)
One thing we see in SC is a massive influx of dudes from Ohio, New Jersey and New York. They retire with their relatively high salaries and come down here in droves. They’re as invasive as kudzu. My house value keeps going up, but at what price?
Being originally from Ohio myself (moved to TN in '96) I can tell you that of the three states you mention Ohio is the least likely to be libtarded. Not saying it doesn't happen but compared to NY and NJ? Pffttt.
Not to stick up for my old state or anything but since the 2000 election Ohio has gone Republican 4 out of 6 times. How has NY and NJ compared?
Being originally from Ohio myself (moved to TN in '96) I can tell you that of the three states you mention Ohio is the least likely to be libtarded. Not saying it doesn't happen but compared to NY and NJ? Pffttt.
Not to stick up for my old state or anything but since the 2000 election Ohio has gone Republican 4 out of 6 times. How has NY and NJ compared?
SC has this weird thing against Ohio. My SIL's family has lived in Charleston for generations and she has no idea why everyone hates Ohio here, but says it's definitely a thing.
SC has this weird thing against Ohio. My SIL's family has lived in Charleston for generations and she has no idea why everyone hates Ohio here, but says it's definitely a thing.
When I was a kid we went to Myrtle Beach a few times. Must've ruined it! ;)
SC has this weird thing against Ohio. My SIL's family has lived in Charleston for generations and she has no idea why everyone hates Ohio here, but says it's definitely a thing.
I would imagine it's a rebel / yankee thing. For some reason people are still doing that.
ChattanoogaPhil
07-24-23, 21:55
Being originally from Ohio myself (moved to TN in '96) I can tell you that of the three states you mention Ohio is the least likely to be libtarded. Not saying it doesn't happen but compared to NY and NJ? Pffttt.
Not to stick up for my old state or anything but since the 2000 election Ohio has gone Republican 4 out of 6 times. How has NY and NJ compared?
Yes, but who and where in Ohio are they moving from? Are they moving from big city blue areas or more rural red areas?
Yes, but who and where in Ohio are they moving from? Are they moving from big city blue areas or more rural red areas?
That's really what it comes down to. I couldn't even begin to count the number of people in various Florida gun clubs from NY and NJ who take such things very, very seriously because they simply weren't allowed in NY and NJ. They tended to be the opposite of everything we criticize about the NE residents who winter in Florida. A lot of them work all day in the businesses they started, one of my favorites being the pizzerias that stayed open until 4am. God bless them.
And when they got into guns and asked many, many, many questions they actually listened to the answers and took time to understand the variables that might apply. Had a guy who bought his first Beretta and transferred it to me and then became a customer who bought several other guns (many based upon my recommendations) and eventually became a close friend. He and his brother were contractors and both of them actually did real construction work all week long. And on the weekends instead of taking it easy he always wanted to hit the range, especially if I was willing to bring out any NFA stuff.
He listened to anything I or other club members told him. Any tips, tricks or things to think about. He constantly asked me why I liked this one over that one, and then he tried them for himself to see if he would come to the same conclusions. When I moved he had several NFA items. I knew he was on the right track when he got his first AR and asked me if I would show him how to break it down and reassemble it until he could do it on his own.
I didn't mind.
Yes, but who and where in Ohio are they moving from? Are they moving from big city blue areas or more rural red areas?
Well I am originally from the Mahoning Valley in NE Ohio, right on the PA border. Youngstown and vicinity. Used to be diehard Democrat (I think it still is). Gave us the likes of that idiot Jim Trafficant in Congress for years, although never from a vote of mine mind you. My wife and I go back at either Thanksgiving or Christmas each year to visit what family is left there (or for funerals) and the place seems alien to me. Gray, dreary, run-down in a lot of places.
Rest of my immediate family relocated to SW Florida years ago, so just cousins, in-laws, and an aunt are left in Ohio.
ChattanoogaPhil
07-25-23, 07:23
Traficant... haven't heard that name in many years. One of the biggest headaches for Washington democrats during his time. Now that I look back... maybe that was part of the reason he was investigated by the feds and and ultimately put behind bars. Beam me up.
FromMyColdDeadHand
07-25-23, 09:16
Lived all over the Midwest, but Ohio has a pretty good value proposition. Fairly cheap housing. Good C-‘suite’ cities (Cleveland, Columbus, Cincinnati) that are in Goldilocks zone of not too small or big. Each have good corporations, universities and small/mid size manufacturing. Lake Erie to Ohio river and every size water in between. The dems are more of the old school union type than the millennial retard version.
You should see people look me like I have two heads when I say that I wish I had never moved to Colorado from Ohio, and would move back in a heartbeat. It doesn’t help that I moved here in the late 2000s, when all the growth and stupidity boomed here. Colorado is a horrible place to live and raise a family. A lack of water and an over-abundance of ex-Californians are the main drivers. A year or so ago a neighbor moved here from Texas, I very nicely questioned why in the hell you would do that? Colorado: Low Humidity, high stupidity.
Lived all over the Midwest, but Ohio has a pretty good value proposition. Fairly cheap housing. Good C-‘suite’ cities (Cleveland, Columbus, Cincinnati) that are in Goldilocks zone of not too small or big. Each have good corporations, universities and small/mid size manufacturing. Lake Erie to Ohio river and every size water in between. The dems are more of the old school union type than the millennial retard version.
You should see people look me like I have two heads when I say that I wish I had never moved to Colorado from Ohio, and would move back in a heartbeat. It doesn’t help that I moved here in the late 2000s, when all the growth and stupidity boomed here. Colorado is a horrible place to live and raise a family. A lack of water and an over-abundance of ex-Californians are the main drivers. A year or so ago a neighbor moved here from Texas, I very nicely questioned why in the hell you would do that? Colorado: Low Humidity, high stupidity.
You can always go back some day. I did. I imagine you could probably do pretty well given cost of housing disparity between Colorado and Ohio.
Lived all over the Midwest, but Ohio has a pretty good value proposition. Fairly cheap housing. Good C-‘suite’ cities (Cleveland, Columbus, Cincinnati) that are in Goldilocks zone of not too small or big. Each have good corporations, universities and small/mid size manufacturing. Lake Erie to Ohio river and every size water in between. The dems are more of the old school union type than the millennial retard version.
You should see people look me like I have two heads when I say that I wish I had never moved to Colorado from Ohio, and would move back in a heartbeat. It doesn’t help that I moved here in the late 2000s, when all the growth and stupidity boomed here. Colorado is a horrible place to live and raise a family. A lack of water and an over-abundance of ex-Californians are the main drivers. A year or so ago a neighbor moved here from Texas, I very nicely questioned why in the hell you would do that? Colorado: Low Humidity, high stupidity.
Yep, even in the Youngstown area it was the "Democrats are for the working man" (my grandfather's very words to me) mindset that they hit the "D" lever for. Back then it wasn't fruitcakes, trannies (maybe redundant?), BLM, gun control, etc. It was the unions, pure and simple. Not that it excuses their "D" vote, but think more like JFK Democrats.
I have had a couple dreams over the years where I woke up after having moved back to Ohio in them. I woke up thinking "Why the %$#@ would I ever move back there?" I will NEVER move back to Ohio, even somewhere other than the Youngstown area. Weather sucks, family is decreasing over the years.....one of the best things I ever did was move to TN.
Now I will say this to be fair: NE Ohio has some of the best ethnic food I've ever had. Hell, I grew up eating it. The Italian food (especially pizza!) is great, and where can I get some pierogies ot stuffed cabbage in TN?
And won't even get started on what it took for our grandparents to get their first home. Made what we went through look like a walk in the park.
My grandfather went to build the Alaska Highway before he ended up being a top turret gunner in a B-24. They built the actual road, there were no hotels, restaurants or bathrooms. They were building the road that allowed for those things. He made enough working on construction of the actual road, which included clearing trees, leveling ground and hard ass labor that most people probably assume we had chinese immigrants doing, that he was able to buy an average house in Iowa after doing that for an entire year.
If you wanted water, you went and got it out of the river. You slept in vehicles and more than once somebody wasn't alive in the morning. They had food but it was whatever could be trucked in and that wasn't reliable or regular. He told me that when he went to war in Europe, he figured it probably couldn't be any worse than trying to survive a year in Alaska. Of course it turned out to be far more dangerous in many ways but when his plane (and most of the others) was shot down going after Hitler's oil reserve at Ploesti, Romania and he ended up sneaking through the woods of Yugoslavia trying to avoid capture and get back to friendly lines he did remember thinking many times "it's going to be ok, Alaska was much harder." He was MIA for almost three months and spent many nights alone hiding, but never spent a day as a POW.
Despite that being an absolute shit show, he always felt he was fortunate having worked on the Alaska highway because learning how to survive there taught him the things he needed to survive on the run for months in Romania and Yugoslavia. He considered that "lucky."
Awesome story. I'm literally on the tarmac at ANC reading this as we plan to fly home.
Thanks for a little history lesson my kids just read over my shoulder. Do you know which part of the highway he worked?
Awesome story. I'm literally on the tarmac at ANC reading this as we plan to fly home.
Thanks for a little history lesson my kids just read over my shoulder. Do you know which part of the highway he worked?
None of would ever know, it's not something anyone would have taken credit for in those days.
Adrenaline_6
07-26-23, 08:52
None of would ever know, it's not something anyone would have taken credit for in those days.
I know you're not a religious man, but I think this is applies. Dr. Edward Judson once said, in speaking of the life of his father Adoniram Johnson, at the dedication of the Judson Memorial Church in NYC, "Suffering and success go together. If you are succeeding without suffering, it is because others before you have suffered; if you are suffering without succeeding, it is that others after you may succeed.
I think it is a pretty wise and accurate statement.
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