Electric Vehicle's - Utopia or Hell [Archive]

mack7.62

07-31-23, 10:31

Personally I don't believe electric cars are going to save the planet, funny how the dangers of lithium batteries are downplayed. There are around 500 EV's on board this ship, plus the rest of the cars each have about a liter of fuel. The video points out this kind of fire could happen in a parking garage with a unstoppable fire and toxic fumes and a lot more gas around.

One killed as ship carrying 3,000 cars catches fire off Dutch coast

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jul/26/cargo-ship-fire-off-dutch-coast

A blaze on a cargo ship carrying nearly 3,000 vehicles off the Dutch coast has killed one person and injured several others, with coastguards warning that the fire could last for several days.

The fire began on Tuesday night on the 199-metre Panama-registered Fremantle Highway, which was en route from Germany to Egypt. Several crew members were forced to jump overboard.

The ship’s owner said an electric car in the cargo was suspected as a possible cause for the blaze.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWt-wjUJNb8

SomeOtherGuy

07-31-23, 10:48

I agree. Like a lot of newer tech, the advantages are exaggerated and the downsides are ignored.

To get decent range using current battery tech, the batteries are enormous and heavy. The resulting cars are heavy and a huge fire hazard.

We can't mine and refine enough lithium and other essential metals (rare earths) to replace the existing ICE fleet. I believe that the globalists consider this a feature, not a bug, and will happily use it to get more peasants out of cars and into buses, etc.

Electric cars are not "green" on a life cycle basis when you account for the environmental and energy cost of the necessary materials.

Electric cars are not "green" on purely a CO2/mile basis when you look at how heavy current options are, how much electricity they use, conversion losses and the fact that so much of that energy is still coming from fossil fuels.

If this was actually about the environment, hybrid tech from the late 90's onward would greatly reduce fuel consumption while avoiding 80-90% of the downsides outlined above. Toyota has been saying this for two decades now.

FromMyColdDeadHand

07-31-23, 11:07

On the fire, I had a RC plane LiPo battery corrupt when it was in my jeans pocket…. It weighed was the size of a piece of gum and it burned a hole in my jeans, a small hole in me, and was a bitch to neutralize. They ‘burn’, but it really is a chemical reaction that you really don’t stop. Literally scared me. Battery fires scare teh crap out of me.

Tesla did a lot for getting EVs to be accepted by making even base model pure speed demons. Then people insisted on cars with batteries that cover the 1% of travel- long distance. Compound that electricity doesn’t pay for roads like gas taxes do.

The reality is that EVs have to suck to work. Most people travel by themselves and drive less than 50 miles a day. This is a vastly different vehicle than is currently being sold, EV or not. You drive it, you charge it every night. A battery operated CIVIC. For the 1% or trips you take where you need something bigger and more range, you rent it. Target the tax credits for EVs based on the battery being no bigger than X or using so many kilos of Co, Li, etc.

-That covers people actual use
-Reduces actual CO2
-Forces battery development away from precious metals.

Of course, as everyone says that they want Green and Sustainable, and then don’t actually buy it. The fricking Hummer EVs battery weighs more than some cars IIRC. You’d have to almost give the cars away as I described- and they’ll do that by taxing the be-Jesus out of gas, ICE engine displacement, and large batteries.

Ron3

07-31-23, 11:23

Extremely heavy, 45m to refuel, at best, and it isn't good for it. Short range.

**** all that.

Get it down to 3500 lbs, great braking & handling, a 350 mile range, repeatedly and for the duration, and a 5m max refuel time and I might be interested.

markm

07-31-23, 11:29

These batteries are an environmental nightmare. Typical stupid liberal fantasy world.

B Cart

07-31-23, 11:30

3 of our good family friends just died yesterday in a Tesla when it burst into flames after hitting a tree. They were coming back from the UFC Fights here in SLC and it sounds like speed was a big factor, causing them to blow through a turn and hit a tree sideways. It looks like upon impact, the Tesla went up in a raging fire. Not sure if they would have survived without the fire, but the fire definitely ensured none of them made it. The fires these batteries cause are insane, and extremely difficult to put out. Huge safety factor IMO.

https://www.ksl.com/article/50697929/3-die-in-fiery-crash-on-beck-street-in-salt-lake-city

ChattanoogaPhil

07-31-23, 11:30

I don't get hung up on all the environmental debate noise, but rather view an electric vehicle for how it might serve my own wants and needs.

I like the idea of refueling at home, and very much like the thought of refueling via solar panels at home. While I cannot drill an oil well or build a refinery on my property for gasoline powered vehicles, I can install solar panels for a battery powered vehicle. I've been reading that five or six solar panels will be plenty for a local vehicle that isn't driven a great deal. I don't see it as a monetary benefit but as a move toward more self reliance. Pleasure travel is an entirely different matter.

Averageman

07-31-23, 12:01

Averageman

07-31-23, 12:01

Double

WickedWillis

07-31-23, 12:07

These batteries are an environmental nightmare. Typical stupid liberal fantasy world.

Yep. There is no good way to dispose of them, creating a far worse ecological threat than any fossil fuel emissions.

My brother in-law works for Diamler, and he has some great information on EV's

HKGuns

07-31-23, 12:12

It is a .Gov mandated wet dream that nobody wants or needs. At a minimum, one domestic automaker will go bankrupt as a result of this bullshit.

Government mandates don’t create consumer demand or make them practical in any way for the majority of uses.

Averageman

07-31-23, 12:34

Government mandates don’t create consumer demand or make them practical in any way for the majority of uses.

I don't see the practicality, keep working on the ICE we've made amazing advancements in the last 40 years.

signal4l

07-31-23, 15:48

Let's not forget about the pollution caused by rapid tire wear:

https://www.dw.com/en/electric-vehicle-tires-a-lesser-known-pollution-headache/a-66189707

Averageman

07-31-23, 17:06

Just took a poll opn this subject at Tech Triumph, 62% of respondents felt that they are a waste of resources .

utahjeepr

07-31-23, 19:32

Tesla has gotten lots of government grants and loans, their sales are subsidized by tax credits for the buyers, and they still can't make money selling cars. They make money selling emission/fuel economy credits to other vehicle manufacturers. They still almost declared bankruptcy in 2019.

If they had to compete on a level playing field they would be long gone. Manufacturing costs, building corporate infrastructure, and R&D would kill them without .gov putting a big fat finger on the scales.

Then there are the questions of battery safety, battery manufacturing capacity, charge rates, range, ...

Then you can dive into electrical generating capacity, electrical distribution, mining for rare earth metals, ...

EVs are not ready for prime time on a global scale. It's all just a grab for your money and your freedoms, period.

And no, I don't believe that even one of those crooked, lying bastards in DC cares one whit about the environment. It's all about power and control.

TexHill

07-31-23, 20:06

John Stossel makes some good points about the lies that the government is pushing about EV's.

Part 1

https://youtu.be/z2HneqfZGsM

Part 2
https://youtu.be/ptI6BRVC1Kw

FromMyColdDeadHand

07-31-23, 20:22

So have we totally given up on the self-driving cars? Those have been three years away for the past fifteen…no one seems to talk about them.

Allen

07-31-23, 22:44

I'm 62, I live in Central Texas. I don't travel often, but when I do it's heading West out of State.
How long would it take me to get out to Arizona with frequent recharging?
And can you please forward my mail along the trip?

Aint no F'ing way I would own one of those Albatross.

https://abetterrouteplanner.com/
Tesla Model 3, 2021, LFP battery ( essentially a civic ) leaving full, assuming gas leaving full
Dallas TX to Lake Havasu City, AZ
EV - 20 H 45M, 10 stops to charge
Gas - 18 H 14M, @20MPG, 16 gal/tank, 3 stops at 20 minutes each

2H 30M difference, more than 1 overnight and it stacks in EV favor. Does not hold if you're bringing the ski boat, but if you're doing longer meals while charging vs. burger on the road it stacks in EV favor.

Tesla has gotten lots of government grants and loans, their sales are subsidized by tax credits for the buyers, and they still can't make money selling cars. They make money selling emission/fuel economy credits to other vehicle manufacturers. They still almost declared bankruptcy in 2019.

If they had to compete on a level playing field they would be long gone. Manufacturing costs, building corporate infrastructure, and R&D would kill them without .gov putting a big fat finger on the scales.

Then there are the questions of battery safety, battery manufacturing capacity, charge rates, range, ...

Then you can dive into electrical generating capacity, electrical distribution, mining for rare earth metals, ...

EVs are not ready for prime time on a global scale. It's all just a grab for your money and your freedoms, period.

And no, I don't believe that even one of those crooked, lying bastards in DC cares one whit about the environment. It's all about power and control.

And Tesla has paid the majority back faster than anyone else. Go look at 2008, where GM was effectively nationalized for the union and common/bond holders got ****ed. Tesla does make a lot of their money selling credits, and is definitely using pricing power to hurt other auto makers.

Take a look at share price & cash flow, even with out the gov subsidies (which have excluded them for the last few years) they'd be default alive. Got close past 2008, but that happened to GM as well. Hence the price cuts. Go look at every other EV manufacturer and they're bleeding on each car even with gov subsidies.

If its about control, you can disable the cell antenna, and charge it at open outlets. Run a gen set at home like anyone who has to deal with a utility like PG&E, Oncor or AEP.

So have we totally given up on the self-driving cars? Those have been three years away for the past fifteen…no one seems to talk about them.

Sign up for Cruze in SF, or Waymo in PHX. Its fun. Experience it first hand, no worse than the 3rd world driving in most Uber/Lyft.

All of this and what I like is what these guys are doing https://www.edisonmotors.ca/
Diesel generator fed, electric drive train hybrid. Give it to me in a full size pick up thats not going to blow its engine or transmission, gets 30 MGP+ and they'll be on the road for a decade outside of accidents.

HKGuns

08-01-23, 00:01

I don't see the practicality, keep working on the ICE we've made amazing advancements in the last 40 years.

One of the big 3 has less than 100 ICE engineers left in the company.

Think about that for a minute and imagine the ramifications.

(That is down from multiple thousands, in case you don’t know.)

These policies are very likely the result of the XiDen compromise from day one.

1. Automakers are forced by Wall Street to invest and MFG in China.
2. All auto MFG is a joint venture with majority ownership by the CCP.
3. MFG technology and engineering transfer of IP both legally and Illegally.
4. The destruction of the US Auto MFG base and the transfer of said base to China.

We are being sold out and it’s been going on since Klinton.

The Teslas that are sold are because their electronics suite is superior to most of the competition, oh and people are virtue signalers.

yoni

08-01-23, 04:25

Electric vehicles soon will be a thing of the past.

With the reversal of globalization as a policy of the USA, many things are going to change. One of the things that are going to die is EV.

mack7.62

08-01-23, 06:45

I have a hard time believing this, just like the gas mileage ratings on new cars the range ratings on ev's are under optimal conditions, fine for short trips but on a long trip where you use the heater or ac your range is going to suck. Also hope there isn't a line when you get to the charging station. EV's kill people, sooner or later there will be a mass causality event caused by them, what do you do when evacuating from a natural disaster and the highway is a parking lot? I would be especially worried if I lived in fire country some place like California where power might be iffy.

https://abetterrouteplanner.com/
Tesla Model 3, 2021, LFP battery ( essentially a civic ) leaving full, assuming gas leaving full
Dallas TX to Lake Havasu City, AZ
EV - 20 H 45M, 10 stops to charge
Gas - 18 H 14M, @20MPG, 16 gal/tank, 3 stops at 20 minutes each

2H 30M difference, more than 1 overnight and it stacks in EV favor. Does not hold if you're bringing the ski boat, but if you're doing longer meals while charging vs. burger on the road it stacks in EV favor.

AndyLate

08-01-23, 07:25

I can drive from Huntsville AL to Atlanta and back without refueling in basically any newish car or truck. The same is not true of all EVs, certainly none under $40k new.

Most multi-car families could happily own 1 EV and one ICV, a single vehicle owner could probably get by with owning an EV and renting an ICV for trips. In the event of a disaster, the EV owner is screwed.

Andy

Adrenaline_6

08-01-23, 13:09

I think of EV's as old projection TV's. Sure, they were cool at the time and were great to watch over small CRT's for sporting events, etc, but it was a technology that was in it's infancy. Soon after, LCD, LED's etc came and rendered them clunky old garbage not worth giving away.

Hydrogen is also being developed hard by Toyota. A lot closer to the refill model we have with fossil fuels we have today. We will see what direction that tech takes too. Also, the safety aspect also is in question.

Disciple

08-01-23, 16:14

Electric vehicles soon will be a thing of the past.

With the reversal of globalization as a policy of the USA, many things are going to change. One of the things that are going to die is EV.

There is a lot of money going into battery research and the problem does not appear to be intractable, even if progress is slow. Current EVs have poor energy density with a high environmental cost, but crack that nut and the superiority of the electric motor cannot be ignored.

glocktogo

08-01-23, 16:22

I think PHEV's make sense from an economy, range and flexibility standpoint. None of the vehicle options are going to "save the environment" regardless of what anyone says. That's just an irrefutable fact of physics.

henri

08-01-23, 20:54

Wildcat

08-01-23, 23:56

There is a lot of money going into battery research and the problem does not appear to be intractable, even if progress is slow. Current EVs have poor energy density with a high environmental cost, but crack that nut and the superiority of the electric motor cannot be ignored.
Energy storage continues to be an obstacle.

The next real development might not be batteries but fuel cells.

ChattanoogaPhil

08-02-23, 07:05

EVs sales are interesting. EV sales continue to rise and surveys continue to show greater consumer interest. On the flip side, consumer demand isn't keeping up manufacturing supply, leading to increased inventories of unsold EVs. Tesla, Ford and a handful of others have already reduced prices.

.45fan

08-02-23, 08:22

Do any of the people here commenting on EV's own one ? At present, if one has an EV, one should also have a ICE vehicle as well, I agree. However, 5-7-10 years down the line, charging stations will be as common as gas stations are now. Every automobile manufacturer is building EV's. Those that denigrate EV's are similar to the horse and buggy owners who derided the Model T.
My tesla plaid gets roughly 380 miles per full charge, used mainly for local ventures within the south and central parts of Florida, no issues finding charging ports at hotels or specified locations. Its a cool AF vehicle that hits 0-60 in a little over 2 sec, faster than most super cars in my neighborhood. Is it better for the environment? Don't know don't care, purchased because its a cool looking vehicle thats fast AF !

There are many things I do not own that I'm certain I do not want to own.

If that 380 mile distance you can go allows you to pull into a charging station and leave 5 minutes later able to go another 380 miles you will get more people's attention.

I'm leaving in about 8 hours for a 1200 mile trip that I will be pulling two trailers behind a pickup, a 32 foot fifth wheel camper and a 16 foot enclosed trailer.

I will be driving 18.5 hours straight through only stopping for fuel and bathroom breaks.

We do this 3 times a year, not to mention pulling the boat behind the camper on numerous shorter trips each year.

I will have no interest in an EV until that as a bare minimum can be accomplished.

ST911

08-02-23, 08:43

Can't man-drive 500-800 miles same day with only quick fuel stops.
Can't keep local supply of energy (200-500 gal equiv) in fixed and mobile tanks.
EV performance in extreme weather too variable.
EV infrastructure too variable.
EV's aren't even a consideration.

HHollow

08-02-23, 09:49

The lefties will make EV's popular by taxing the heck out of fossil fuels and anything using them. The excuse will be to compensate for environmental impact.

The sane majority might insist that EV's be taxed as well because of the environmental impact of mining and disposal. A tax war would ensue with government winning and taxpayers losing.

Alex V

08-02-23, 10:38

The fact that I can go from my house in NC, to my parents' house in NJ in my Silverado 1500 without ever stopping (for gas or otherwise) while my cousin had to recharge his Model-X twice doing the same distance from my house to his parents house tells me everything I need to know about EVs.

In the words of Johnny Tran "Too soon junior!"

steyrman13

08-03-23, 08:14

Not only the distinct disadvantages of all the travel and cold weather charging issues, towing is laughable lol. The firsthand reports I've seen pulling a trailer you couldn't even make it out of your city before having to charge again with a decent size trailer. It would already take me 2-4 days travel to get to some National parks with a travel trailer (sleep time include) so minimum 2 week trip to enjoy the parks. With the extra charge times, I would need at least 3 weeks to hit the same places.

Also, the part that I think people are being shortsided on......think of the price the utility companies will charge once everyone is all Electric. Get ready for that $300 summer bill to be $1000+

Averageman

08-03-23, 09:04

flenna

08-03-23, 09:48

You guys are assuming the .gov gives a crap about feasibility of EVs for everyone. Like everything else coming out of DC it is all about control and ushering in total dependence on Big Brother (or the Big Guy?). Even General Motors is starting to realize what happens when you give a scorpion a ride:

https://autos.yahoo.com/gm-lashes-biden-administration-plan-170000207.html

AndyLate

08-03-23, 10:03

If there was a sub-$20K EV with a 400 mile range (HSV, AL to ATL, GA round trip) I would consider it. Don't need a lot of luxury, just AC and a Bluetooth radio. Cloth seats, manual windows, I don't care. 100K miles without an issue is required, since any modern ICV will be.

I could drive it when I am not riding my unicorn.

Andy

ChattanoogaPhil

08-03-23, 10:18

Do any of the people here commenting on EV's own one ? At present, if one has an EV, one should also have a ICE vehicle as well, I agree. However, 5-7-10 years down the line, charging stations will be as common as gas stations are now. Every automobile manufacturer is building EV's. Those that denigrate EV's are similar to the horse and buggy owners who derided the Model T.
My tesla plaid gets roughly 380 miles per full charge, used mainly for local ventures within the south and central parts of Florida, no issues finding charging ports at hotels or specified locations. Its a cool AF vehicle that hits 0-60 in a little over 2 sec, faster than most super cars in my neighborhood. Is it better for the environment? Don't know don't care, purchased because its a cool looking vehicle thats fast AF !

I've refueled at the local gas station about once a week for the past 30 years. However, if I had an EV I'd have very little use for a commercial charging station (as we think of gas stations today) because I'd be charging at home as I think many folks would at night after work. Nighttime, off peak hours, is when power companies have excess capacity so that helps the transition to EVs while additional capacity is added.

As EVs become more popular and ICE powered vehicles begin to shrink in numbers, gas stations will necessarily wither on the vine. Refueling an ICE while traveling may become more inconvenient than an EV in the not too distant future.

Be interesting to see what actually unfolds.

henri

08-03-23, 21:15

There are many things I do not own that I'm certain I do not want to own.

If that 380 mile distance you can go allows you to pull into a charging station and leave 5 minutes later able to go another 380 miles you will get more people's attention.

I'm leaving in about 8 hours for a 1200 mile trip that I will be pulling two trailers behind a pickup, a 32 foot fifth wheel camper and a 16 foot enclosed trailer.

I will be driving 18.5 hours straight through only stopping for fuel and bathroom breaks.

We do this 3 times a year, not to mention pulling the boat behind the camper on numerous shorter trips each year.

I will have no interest in an EV until that as a bare minimum can be accomplished.

The trip you mention along with all the items you're towing is not the norm, and for your circumstances and needs, an EV is not a feasible option. For me, any trip over 150-200 miles and more than a 3 hour drive, I'm flying.

.45fan

08-03-23, 21:51

The trip you mention along with all the items you're towing is not the norm, and for your circumstances and needs, an EV is not a feasible option. For me, any trip over 150-200 miles and more than a 3 hour drive, I'm flying.There are 150k + people traveling to this event and just as many to the others I mentioned, I can guarantee none of the people coming here would want an electric vehicle.

ETA:
I'm not being snarky, just replying to the question you asked about, if anyone commenting own an EV that was knocking them. I get there are way more people in the world than the small group at this event but again just replying to your question.

steyrman13

08-04-23, 07:49

The trip you mention along with all the items you're towing is not the norm, and for your circumstances and needs, an EV is not a feasible option. For me, any trip over 150-200 miles and more than a 3 hour drive, I'm flying.

The cost and time comparison of flying a family of 5 (not to mention price of renting a car at the new location) vs just driving for really anything under about 800 miles is unfeasible but I do understand what you are saying.

The only thing an EV makes sense to me for would be a daily commuter to work, but even then the initial cost of 30k+ plus insurance of a secondary vehicle would never be recuperated in my entire career.....and thats comparing to even a truck that would get say 14mpg

glocktogo

08-04-23, 11:49

The trip you mention along with all the items you're towing is not the norm, and for your circumstances and needs, an EV is not a feasible option. For me, any trip over 150-200 miles and more than a 3 hour drive, I'm flying.

I guess my question is this, what could an EV do for your needs that a PHEV couldn't do nearly as well, while providing far greater versatility and capability? I'm considering one of the new Prius Prime PHEV's because I could charge it fully at home during off peak hours. It would complete my daily commute on cheaper electric power alone if I keep my foot out of it, and be available for longer hauls without compromise or extensive recharge planning.

AndyLate

08-04-23, 15:15

The trip you mention along with all the items you're towing is not the norm, and for your circumstances and needs, an EV is not a feasible option. For me, any trip over 150-200 miles and more than a 3 hour drive, I'm flying.

It's certainly a matter of preference, but it's neither practical or desirable for me to fly unless the drive is 6+ hours.

Andy

SomeOtherGuy

08-04-23, 17:31

The insurance and repair cost angle:

https://realclearwire.com/articles/2023/08/02/will_insurance_costs_derail_the_ev_revolution_970320.html

ABNAK

08-04-23, 18:31

henri

08-05-23, 11:00

I don't want one and the fact that the [Leftist] .gov is trying to force it down our throats makes me double-down even more on not wanting one.

Wake me up when you can get an honest (not "depending" on temperature and other shit) 400+ mile range and it charges in 5 minutes. I love how the EV fanbois say "Well if you're on a trip just stretch your legs, have lunch, relax" while it takes 30 minutes to charge. Fvck that, when I travel it's to GET THERE, not waste time at some rest stop/charging station. I have ZERO intention of making what might be an 8 hour trip now into 10 or 11 hours.
As mentioned/noted, your needs may vary, my max drives, every 3 months or so are 150, maybe 200 miles, so Tesla works for me. Two international airports are 15-30 minutes, respectively MIA and FLL, from my home, so flying anywhere is easy.
To each his own as the expression goes.

1168

08-05-23, 11:10

I have buddies that really like theirs, and have for years. I don’t know much about them myself…I drive a truck until the wheels fall off before researching what’s new. I share the concern about environmental impact of battery disposal. On the fires, I’m told that statistically gasoline in a garage is much more likely to burn your shit down. I haven’t done any independent study to look into that, though. I might ask some of the fire captains floating around my social circle where to find that data….actually, now that I think about it, the dude that is most into EVs is a firefighter.

Some of them are pretty sporty.

rero360

08-06-23, 19:26

I briefly considered a Tesla but the downsides with the batteries is just to great for me. Given the I live in Commiefornia, the only way I’d honestly go EV is if the state makes the grid more robust, I.e. build more nuke plants. The cars have solid state batteries, and have a range of at least 800 miles on a single charge as I commute roughly 680 miles a week. Pipe dream I know.

Current car is a 2023 Honda accord hybrid, which has been great for me so far. Even though my insurance and car payments are higher than my last car, a CR-V, the savings at the pump more than make up the difference.

ChattanoogaPhil

08-06-23, 21:03

rero360

08-06-23, 22:00

California grid…

Spent last summer in California (Bay Area). Abnormal temps above 110 for a string of days. Never lost power. The biggest threat to losing power is high winds during dry conditions and trees blowing into power lines causing fires. PG&E cuts off power to prevent fires.

If government wants to keep pushing EVs it will necessarily require a reliable grid with enough capacity. Even environmental zealots like Newsom gets it. Diablo Canyon was scheduled to be put out of service but fearing capacity issues he supported a bill to keep it online and give PG&E billions in loans.

I’m down in the LA Basin, we don’t lose power often, just a few times and two of those times that I can remember were from drunk jackasses hitting poles. I just know that the grid as is can in no way support everyone having an EV. My commute is a bear though, 210/605 interchange to Skunkworks up in Palmdale four days a week. Going to work isn’t bad as I leave the house around 4am, but coming home it takes almost twice as long. Hopefully the small scale fusion reactor we’re working on will be fruitful in bringing cheap and plentiful energy to the market, not my program though so all I know of it from a few YouTube videos.

.45fan

08-06-23, 22:55

Today I visited deadwood SD as part of the rally here near sturgis.
Harley Davidson had many demo bikes, and a second semi trailer gull of their livewire electric motorcycles.
They also had a huge Cat diesel generator with a dozen of those bikes plugged in to recharge them.
I asked the guy tending to those bikes how much diesel they use to recharge those bikes and he laughed and said "you don't want to know".
I couldn't do anything but laugh.

ChattanoogaPhil

08-07-23, 06:27

I’m down in the LA Basin, we don’t lose power often, just a few times and two of those times that I can remember were from drunk jackasses hitting poles. I just know that the grid as is can in no way support everyone having an EV. My commute is a bear though, 210/605 interchange to Skunkworks up in Palmdale four days a week. Going to work isn’t bad as I leave the house around 4am, but coming home it takes almost twice as long. Hopefully the small scale fusion reactor we’re working on will be fruitful in bringing cheap and plentiful energy to the market, not my program though so all I know of it from a few YouTube videos.

For sure additional capacity will be required if EVs are to become the standard mode of transportation. As a matter of self preservation politicians understand they can't get reelected if their constituents don't have reliable service, nor will people purchase EVs if they can't conveniently and reliably charge them.

That said, I'm not sure increasing capacity will be as big a task as some might believe. For many folks the most convienient time to charge an EV is at home at night during off peak hours. There's also much to be gained via efficiencies. A couple years ago I replaced an aging AC unit. I was surprised at the drop in kWh during the summer which exceeds the estimated monthly 350kWh for an EV. Plus... I would probably install solar panels for charging just cuz I like the idea of self reliance.

AndyLate

08-07-23, 07:48

For sure additional capacity will be required if EVs are to become the standard mode of transportation. As a matter of self preservation politicians understand they can't get reelected if their constituents don't have reliable service, nor will people purchase EVs if they can't conveniently and reliably charge them.

That said, I'm not sure increasing capacity will be as big a task as some might believe. For many folks the most convienient time to charge an EV is at home at night during off peak hours. There's also much to be gained via efficiencies. A couple years ago I replaced an aging AC unit. I was surprised at the drop in kWh during the summer which exceeds the estimated monthly 350kWh for an EV. Plus... I would probably install solar panels for much of the charging just cuz I like the idea of self reliance.

You are absolutely correct about gains through efficiency. At the same time, how many billions of dollars is the taxpayers willing to fork over, in the form of credits, to our enemy China for all those appliances? Solar power augmenting the power company benefits the same enemy. What happens when gas tax revenues drop for real and electric car owners have to fork over $10K per year on road tax?

Andy

ChattanoogaPhil

08-07-23, 09:55

You are absolutely correct about gains through efficiency. At the same time, how many billions of dollars is the taxpayers willing to fork over, in the form of credits, to our enemy China for all those appliances? Solar power augmenting the power company benefits the same enemy. What happens when gas tax revenues drop for real and electric car owners have to fork over $10K per year on road tax?

Andy

I hear ya... US reliance on China is a worthy subject. However, appliances age and require replacing. That reality doesn't change regardless of EVs. At least there isn't an undersea electrical cord to China (not yet anyway) to charge EVs which is the equivalent of decades of oil imports from the ME to fuel our ICE vehicles.

Unfortunately, the US taxpayer seems to love tax incentives, rebates, credits, deductions... from buying a home (mortgage interest) to outfitting it with the latest high efficiency appliances. The US consumer has so far not been dissuaded from purchasing products made in China, whether with their take home pay or tax dollars in the form of rebates or credits. To answer your question, in the absence of a significant event I don't see a limit on what taxpayers are willing to 'fork over'. Personally, I consider the entire notion of using tax dollars to incentivize behavior as social engineering and am against it all. The list is endless but perhaps one of the most egregious related to personal transportation was taxpayers funding the destruction of their cars = Cash for Clunkers. sigh...

Curious how you arrived at that $10k/yr figure to replace gas tax revenues. The below is a couple years old but is nowhere near $10k. Combined state and federal gas tax in Tennessee is under 50 cents. If I drive my truck 10k miles a year at 17mpg that's less than $300/yr in gas taxes which lines up with the below. Roads and maintenance aren't free. If revenue isn't collected at the pump then it will be collected elsewhere.

https://i.imgur.com/i0uTvsQ.png

AndyLate

08-07-23, 11:45

Johnny Rico

08-07-23, 11:56

As mentioned/noted, your needs may vary, my max drives, every 3 months or so are 150, maybe 200 miles, so Tesla works for me. Two international airports are 15-30 minutes, respectively MIA and FLL, from my home, so flying anywhere is easy.
To each his own as the expression goes.

How will you charge your Tesla the next time a hurricane rolls through and knocks out the grid for a month?

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/OcCtIVzIWMg

ChattanoogaPhil

08-07-23, 12:29

I pulled $10K out of my 4th point of contact, and am pretty far off.

I sound so anti-EV, but am not. My issue is it's getting crammed down our throats in a headlong rush. Why not emphasize smaller vehicles, hybrid power, and alternate fuels. Sell me a Mahindra jeep with a small diesel based hybrid powerplant and let me fill it with biodiesel. I'd rather burn plant goo than eat "plant based protein" meat.

We cannot burn dead dinosaurs forever, and I am good with letting the house of Saud go back to controlling a worthless empty desert.

Andy

Those are all good points. Personally, I wouldn't drive a small car if it was given to me for free and operated on water from my garden hose. I prefer my pickup truck as a daily driver and for various homeowner needs... plus Coondog loves her perch when riding shotgun. She's not a Prius kinda girl. (grin)

I do like the Ford Lightening. Ford just lowered prices $10k.

https://i.imgur.com/gjbqWyK.jpg

HKGuns

08-07-23, 18:21

How will you charge your Tesla the next time a hurricane rolls through and knocks out the grid for a month?

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/OcCtIVzIWMg

In fairness, gas pumps require electricity as well.

Gas power and water are in short supply after natural disasters.

That is called a clue.

Oh and where in the constitution does it say the government can push ANYTHING on we the people?

glocktogo

08-08-23, 11:17

In fairness, gas pumps require electricity as well.

Gas power and water are in short supply after natural disasters.

That is called a clue.

Oh and where in the constitution does it say the government can push ANYTHING on we the people?

It's kinda crazy how no one thinks to put backup generators in fuel stations.

ST911

08-08-23, 16:46

It's kinda crazy how no one thinks to put backup generators in fuel stations.

Learning how to access and pump fuel from ground tanks is a useful skill.

SteyrAUG

08-08-23, 17:50

It's kinda crazy how no one thinks to put backup generators in fuel stations.

Actually many do. They just use a regular generator like you buy at Home Depot.

henri

08-08-23, 17:52

How will you charge your Tesla the next time a hurricane rolls through and knocks out the grid for a month?

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/OcCtIVzIWMg

Gas pumps will not function either for the most part, and those stations with generators stop functioning after a few days. Also, my two other vehicles are ICE. In addition, I do have a natural gas powered whole house generator, so I can charge it that way, plus during hurricane season I store several 5 gallon gas cans as backup for my standard vehicles, and I rarely allow the gas tanks to go less than 3/4 full. So, I'm good :-)
Also, despite several hurricanes over the past 20 yrs, electric was never lost for more than 4-5 days and that was hurricane Wilma over 10 yrs ago if I recall; nothing since then, except for Hurricane Irma, and no loss of power at all. If the 'grid' goes down for a month or more anywhere in the US, getting gas or charging your vehicle will be the least of your problems.

ChattanoogaPhil

08-09-23, 08:56

Actually many do. They just use a regular generator like you buy at Home Depot.

I read a long time ago that Florida had laws requiring some fuel stations to be wired for a transfer switch to accommodate portable generators.

everready73

08-09-23, 09:40

I don't see the sustainability of full electric vehicles. I think the most logical choice moving forward is to increase fuel efficiency on ICE vehicles and hybrids.

Wife was just shopping for a new vehicle. We had a 2016 Mazda CX-5 which is a great car, but it crossed 100k miles and we needed a little more room and she wanted a 3rd row

I was pushing for a RAV4 hybrid or a Sportage hybrid, but they were a little to small. Ended up test driving a few and landed on a 2023 Kia Sorento HEV (not the plug in). It had the 3rd row and gets 35MPG compared to the smaller CX5 averaging 25/26 MPG when we had it.

Seemed like the most logical choice for not much more than a non-hybrid. Came in just under 40k with the options we wanted

Adrenaline_6

08-09-23, 15:33

You also can stock up on gas cans and store gas to get you through the down time. Big difference.

Disciple

08-09-23, 15:45

I don't see the sustainability of full electric vehicles. I think the most logical choice moving forward is to increase fuel efficiency on ICE vehicles and hybrids.

It really depends on battery technology, if the promising chemistries come to fruition.

Lead acid specific energy of 40 Wh/kg gives you golf carts.

Lithium ion specific energy 240 Wh/kg gives you Teslas.

Imagine what a practical lithium–silicon or lithium-sulfur battery with 600 Wh/kg could give you?

devildogljb

08-09-23, 22:09

Just my 2 cents take it for what you will. As a volunteer fire fighter who responds to interstate crashes, They scare the crap out of me. If any of those batteries are compermised in any way during the accident and the occupants are trapped. They will more then likley be deceased by the time we arrarive on scene. Not to mention the amount of water we would need to put it out with out a hydrant would be damn near impossiable to aquire in a timley manner. EV car fires burn 3 times hotter then your standard gasoline vehicles. Scary stuff espically for a occupant trapped inside.

Rayrevolver

08-10-23, 11:22

Gents, I just wanted to share my experience. EV owner since February 2023.

My son made travel soccer and I knew my driving would go through the roof. I am doing 2500-3000 miles per month during the season for practice and away tournaments. My 18mpg F-150 would cost $583 to go 3000 miles, my EV that I charge at home costs ~$95.

So I ran down this path when Tesla lowered new car prices, which drove used cars down >$10k over a few months. Got a lot of money for the F-150 (and sold my fun car, see below) and bought a 2020 Model 3LR. Not having a truck was my biggest sticking point, but making it work for now.

Getting a 240v 14-50 outlet in the garage cost me $550 and the car came with a mobile charger.

We have an ICE SUV. I own a dual-fuel gas/propane generator if we lose power at the house.

The only time I have needed to charge outside my home was on the initial road trip after buying the used car out-of-state. So all the talk of waiting to charge, or charge times, don't apply to most folks who charge at home every night. I have not stopped at a gas station for my own needs since February.

My car has ~290 miles of range***. I only need about 100 miles on work+soccer days and I charge to 55% on a daily basis. I charge up when I get home after work before soccer, just because I can, I don't need to. You don't need to "Fill it up" unless you are road tripping. Even on a road trip, its faster to charge to ~80% at a supercharger and then roll out. My car does 10%-80% in 25 minutes. BUT YES - If you are into road trips the EV will take longer.

Using my 240v home charger it takes 1 hour of charging to get me back to 55% if I drive to work and back. ~2 hours if its a work+soccer day.

So yeah, we are still dealing with generation 1.0 for EVs. Lots of development is required BUT for most folks going to work, with reasonable road trips mixed in, its a decent option. If I had to downsize to 1 vehicle right now, it would be a Hybrid or Plug-in Hybrid.

***Back to range, high heat and cold impacts range. Driving fast burns more energy. Your mission should dictate your equipment. If you live in Minnesota and want to drive 90mph everywhere, you might need to do some math to figure out what your range would be.

- The last thing I read was that EVs are maybe 25% more "green" from a lifecycle perspective than ICE. Sure, whatever!

- I just sold a Porsche Boxster (986 Tip). Maybe if I had a manual 986 I would miss it more, but I don't. The Model 3LR is not a sports coupe but fun enough to drive. The weight is down low so it doesn't feel as piggish as 4000 lbs sounds. And go test drive a Performance Model 3, just to see what its like. They are almost crotch rocket fast (0-60 in 3.2s), something that needs to be experienced.

- I don't have a trailer anymore. I don't think the F-150 Electric is a good tow vehicle. For home owners and daily driving, the F-150 Electric would be ok, but when the Pro went from $40k, to $48k, to $54k in a 12 month period, I stopped looking. Especially when they wanted a premium over MSRP. As a side topic Ford is almost dead to me. I went really hard towards a Maverick Hybrid and got hosed by local dealers when they first came out.

ALL THAT SAID: I would love to own another manual car. Even like a Corolla. I just spent a month driving manual rental cars and I need more of that in my life.