View Full Version : The Deadliest Service Rifle Ever Fielded by The US Military; The M4A1
By Garand Thumb
https://youtu.be/nBY2lZlmIEI
I like GT but didn't watch it. The M4A1 killed more bad guys in relatively recent times than the M16/M16A1 did in Vietnam?
I like GT but didn't watch it. The M4A1 killed more bad guys in relatively recent times than the M16/M16A1 did in Vietnam?
More rounds fired in Nam. Probably 3% actually aimed at the enemy.
I like GT but didn't watch it. The M4A1 killed more bad guys in relatively recent times than the M16/M16A1 did in Vietnam?
20 years in Iraq and Afghanistan vs 10 in Vietnam. Not to mention Syria and Africa...
bamashooter
08-14-23, 07:21
20 years in Iraq and Afghanistan vs 10 in Vietnam. Not to mention Syria and Africa...
Potential targets were much, much more plentiful and abound in Vietnam along with a ton more friendlies deployed at any given time.
Potential targets were much, much more plentiful and abound in Vietnam along with a ton more friendlies deployed at any given time.
The VC are the most equivalent to the Iraqi insurgents and Taliban, but we did not face an equivalent to the NVA in the GWOT. Using just ground forces, we lost 51,000 KIA in Vietnam (38,000 Army and 13,000 USMC). We haven't lost nearly that many (thank God) in the ME or Africa. The VC and NVA lost (conservatively) close to 1 million KIA, low-end estimates are 500K. The majority were probably from artillery and bombing, but when you look at our casualties also the cost is clear. Since the M16 was the most-issued weapon by our forces, and allowing for factoring out 7.62NATO arms (M14 and M60), I'd say the Black Rifle alone killed a couple hundred thousand enemy. Factoring out air and artillery and 7.62 in the GWOT do you guys really think we deep-sixed several hundred thousand with the M4A1 alone?
There is no way the M4 has killed more people than the M16. Remember for a good part of the beginning of GWOT the USMC primarily used the M16 as well as several units in the Army.
I think what he means by the "deadliest" is it's capabilities, not exactly the actual numbers of E-KIA.
There is no way the M4 has killed more people than the M16. Remember for a good part of the beginning of GWOT the USMC primarily used the M16 as well as several units in the Army.
I think what he means by the "deadliest" is it's capabilities, not exactly the actual numbers of E-KIA.
Valid point, didn't think of it that way. If you factor in M855A1 ammunition then I would agree it is "deadlier" (more lethal?) than the M16/A1/A4 with either M193 or M855.
I like GT but didn't watch it. The M4A1 killed more bad guys in relatively recent times than the M16/M16A1 did in Vietnam?
Easily. Not to even get into civilian law enforcement using it for a good 10 as well. It is just around more, used more, and made better, fielded by better troops.
Key M4 upgrades according to the video:
M4 Feed Ramps
H2 Buffer
Extractor Spring
SOCOM Barrel Profile
14.5" Barrel Length balances multiple factors well
Magpul Anti-Tilt Magazine Followers
Magpul PMAG
Improved Ammunition - Mk262, Mk318, M855A1
Not a surprising list to most people here, but a good reminder of the small but meaningful improvements that make the platform great today.
So the M4A1 platform has put more enemy in the dirt than the M1 Garand? Garand in service through out all of WWII, Korea and into the early part of Viet Nam (1965). I guess there is really no absolute way to know, but call me skeptical.
call me skeptical.
Yeah, but I consider the comment par for the click bait youtube course. If anything, its one of the more honest click bait comments, because it can be debated endlessly.
Yeah, but I consider the comment par for the click bait youtube course. If anything, its one of the more honest click bait comments, because it can be debated endlessly.
True.
Did he say it has most kills or it is the deadliest. I watch his stuff but that was long winded and it was on while I was mixing a Manhattan on my day off, so I didn't catch everything.
Elcans are cool though.
jackblack73
08-15-23, 14:41
He doesn’t define deadliest in the vid. I took it to mean the most capable rifle.
I’m pretty sure you’ve all put more thought into this already than he did.
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The VC are the most equivalent to the Iraqi insurgents and Taliban, but we did not face an equivalent to the NVA in the GWOT. Using just ground forces, we lost 51,000 KIA in Vietnam (38,000 Army and 13,000 USMC). We haven't lost nearly that many (thank God) in the ME or Africa. The VC and NVA lost (conservatively) close to 1 million KIA, low-end estimates are 500K. The majority were probably from artillery and bombing, but when you look at our casualties also the cost is clear. Since the M16 was the most-issued weapon by our forces, and allowing for factoring out 7.62NATO arms (M14 and M60), I'd say the Black Rifle alone killed a couple hundred thousand enemy. Factoring out air and artillery and 7.62 in the GWOT do you guys really think we deep-sixed several hundred thousand with the M4A1 alone?
I wonder how many were wounded, but not killed, due to medical technology. Can't recall if it was WWII or Korea when disease ceased killing more personnel than combat.
So the M4A1 platform has put more enemy in the dirt than the M1 Garand? Garand in service through out all of WWII, Korea and into the early part of Viet Nam (1965). I guess there is really no absolute way to know, but call me skeptical.
I'd agree
I'll bet the springfield from the civil war has more than the Garand even
GT said wide spread dissemination of these upgrades took 10 years. 2003 to 2013
So the M4A1 platform has put more enemy in the dirt than the M1 Garand? Garand in service through out all of WWII, Korea and into the early part of Viet Nam (1965). I guess there is really no absolute way to know, but call me skeptical.
He's only saying that because of dumb POGs like me who were issued one, it make us salivate and instantly click on the video
Key M4 upgrades according to the video:
M4 Feed Ramps
H2 Buffer
Extractor Spring
SOCOM Barrel Profile
14.5" Barrel Length balances multiple factors well
Magpul Anti-Tilt Magazine Followers
Magpul PMAG
Improved Ammunition - Mk262, Mk318, M855A1
Not a surprising list to most people here, but a good reminder of the small but meaningful improvements that make the platform great today.
Up front, I didn’t watch the video…I find him theatric enough that I have to be in the mood to watch a movie.
Of these improvements, in my time the most important was the extractor spring upgrade. The feed ramps happened before my time.
Shooting suppressed, failures to extract were not uncommon, especially on auto. My armorer used to give me piles of O-rings, and then when the spring upgrade came out, he gave me a pile of those, just in case.
The H2 buffer complimented the new barrel profile. Though, I distinctly remember a conversation with my armorer when we got the Knight’s cans, and he’d just gotten back from Crane, and he was giving me a pile of o-rings. He told me that we should be using heavier buffers with the cans, but I knew jackshit about anything regarding stuff like that at the time. I was like “can we shoot these things, or not?”. I didn’t even know buffers came in different weights prior to that. Then, off to Ramadi I went. Our rifles worked better than they did before the o-rings, but not as well as they did after all the other upgrades.
The Magpul followers were (are) really good. We tested the HK mags before that, and honestly, most of us thought they sucked. The green follower and others following it were OK, but the Magpul ones are the best. When the PMags came out, my CPT asked if I thought we should buy them with the opfund, but my experience with HK mags and how they fit in pouches made me distrustful, so we went with followers instead. I probably personally own a few hundred mags retrofitted with them at this point. But PMags work really well, too.
M855A1 improved precision again about as much as the new barrel profile did. And it greatly improved lethality*. Before it came out, I was pretty satisfied with the other ammo, but I was working almost exclusively at night, and either engagement ranges were very close, or at a distance wherein we could not be contested. The new ammo brings that lethality to the masses, and its stellar.
I’ve said before, and maintain the statement, that the M4A1 is the finest general issue weapon ever fielded by any military organization in history. And combined with the M855A1 round and decent optics, its just an incredible combination.
*even with green tip, you can absolutely dumpster a guy in the right scenario. I can ramble about this for days. I can’t recall a single time that it didn’t drop a guy in a hurry given proper placement.
Up front, I didn’t watch the video…I find him theatric enough that I have to be in the mood to watch a movie.
Of these improvements, in my time the most important was the extractor spring upgrade. The feed ramps happened before my time.
Shooting suppressed, failures to extract were not uncommon, especially on auto. My armorer used to give me piles of O-rings, and then when the spring upgrade came out, he gave me a pile of those, just in case.
The H2 buffer complimented the new barrel profile. Though, I distinctly remember a conversation with my armorer when we got the Knight’s cans, and he’d just gotten back from Crane, and he was giving me a pile of o-rings. He told me that we should be using heavier buffers with the cans, but I knew jackshit about anything regarding stuff like that at the time. I was like “can we shoot these things, or not?”. I didn’t even know buffers came in different weights prior to that. Then, off to Ramadi I went. Our rifles worked better than they did before the o-rings, but not as well as they did after all the other upgrades.
The Magpul followers were (are) really good. We tested the HK mags before that, and honestly, most of us thought they sucked. The green follower and others following it were OK, but the Magpul ones are the best. When the PMags came out, my CPT asked if I thought we should buy them with the opfund, but my experience with HK mags and how they fit in pouches made me distrustful, so we went with followers instead. I probably personally own a few hundred mags retrofitted with them at this point. But PMags work really well, too.
M855A1 improved precision again about as much as the new barrel profile did. And it greatly improved lethality*. Before it came out, I was pretty satisfied with the other ammo, but I was working almost exclusively at night, and either engagement ranges were very close, or at a distance wherein we could not be contested. The new ammo brings that lethality to the masses, and its stellar.
I’ve said before, and maintain the statement, that the M4A1 is the finest general issue weapon ever fielded by any military organization in history. And combined with the M855A1 round and decent optics, its just an incredible combination.
*even with green tip, you can absolutely dumpster a guy in the right scenario. I can ramble about this for days. I can’t recall a single time that it didn’t drop a guy in a hurry given proper placement.
Can't beat hands on testimony.
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