View Full Version : Increasing the quality of budget priced ARs
shadowspirit
09-08-23, 19:19
There are the less expensive ARs like S&W and Ruger. Then there are the more expensive ones like Colt, BCM, LMT, Nights Armament, etc.
Can a budget priced AR such as the S&W and Ruger be brought up to the quality of the more expensive ones with money invested in it?
Even more specifically, can the lower priced ARs be brought up to the level or reliability and durability of the more expensive ARs with the infusion of money to replace various parts?
I know the barrel of the Ruger and S&W will not last as long or be quite as accurate as the expensive ARs, so lets not consider barrels in this question.
Possible things to replace are the shoulder stock and the stock over the barrel with something simple but stronger. A trigger/hammer assembly with a good reputation. Maybe higher quality pins and springs. An aftermarket bolt carrier group. Etc.
What are you asking?
What is the purpose of the rifle?
The receivers have to be in spec. After that, anything can be upgraded.
At what point does your junky AR cost more than a Colt that is 800-1150$ depending on the day?
I say either enjoy a cheap junk AR for the cheap junk it is, or buy a decent rifle if you want one. By decent I mean a BCG and barrel you’d never think needs replacing.
As long as the receivers are in-spec, a budget AR can certainly be upgraded to increase its reliability and durability, up to the point that it's functionally the equal of a 6920. Basically, it would be wise to replace every single component except for the receivers and likely receiver extension.
Going through this endeavor and considering it worth the time and money is a whole other conversation. This certainly isn't a cost saving effort, considering the current prices for Colt 6920s and basic BCMs.
Colt actually belongs in the less expensive group. I know where one can get a slightly used one for $700.
After you've totaled up the cost of the upgraded components, just buy an equivalent from a reputable company and get the added benefit of a warranty and customer service.
shadowspirit
09-08-23, 20:33
What are you asking?
What is the purpose of the rifle?
The receivers have to be in spec. After that, anything can be upgraded.
The purpose of the rifle is SHTF.
At what point does your junky AR cost more than a Colt that is 800-1150$ depending on the day?
I say either enjoy a cheap junk AR for the cheap junk it is, or buy a decent rifle if you want one. By decent I mean a BCG and barrel you’d never think needs replacing.
Good point about total investment exceeding the cost of the Colt. OTOH, it could wind up being better than the Colt. For example, I'm guessing there are aftermarket BCGs that are better than Colts. Another issue is some claim the latest Colts went down in quality. I have no idea whether that is true or not. The are marked CR instead of LE. A gentleman with a fairly known YouTube channel, his first name may be Chris, claims the 20" Windham A4 is better than the Colt version, IIRC.
shadowspirit
09-08-23, 20:38
After you've totaled up the cost of the upgraded components, just buy an equivalent from a reputable company and get the added benefit of a warranty and customer service.
The FN 15 Guardian got my curiosity. I recently asked if anyone heard anything else about it in a thread discussing it last spring.
turnburglar
09-08-23, 23:12
The 'cost' of fixing up a budget rifle isn't as much as some people are making it sound. An AR15 IS NOT a car. In the car realm a civic will never be a porsche. But in the AR world you can make a PSA shoot as well as a Noveske (I can already hear the screams).
To make an AR simply reliable is actually very cheap. Let's first make some assumptions. The 'cheap' AR you bought has a chamber properly cut to 556 dimensions and feed ramps that are inspec with M4 style feed ramps. The only things you have to buy that most cheap AR's dont have:
- Good Ammo. $$$
- Good magazines. Pmag is the easy button here. $15
- Spring Co Extractor Spring with the insert. $5
- H2 buffer and a Colt buffer spring. $31 (expo arms/ Primary Arms)
So for a total of ~$60 in upgrades you have a reliable rifle. You should also do things like stake the castle nut on the buffer tube and check the staking on the gas key of the BCG. If the barrel is harshly over gassed (my PSA was not) then you can solve that with a $50 BRT gas tube.
If you actually wanted to 'upgrade' a rifle to compete with the big boys let's see what that would cost. For this experiment let's start with a base gun....
https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-14-7-chf-mid-length-5-56-nato-1-7-13-5-lightweight-m-lok-moe-ept-rifle.html
To make this gun have the rest of the features that most look for in a high end rifle I would add the following accessories:
Spring Co extractor upgrade kit: $5
H2 buffer & Spring: $31
Larue MBT 2s trigger: $89
Radian CH Safety Combo: $120
Magpul MBUS3: $90
Slate Black Ind Rail Covers & Grip: $35
Brings us to a total price tag of: $1,169 for a rifle that has a pretty high set of features; FN CHF barrel, C158 bolt, ambi controls, a great trigger, BUIS and proper heat shielding (a must on a hard use rifle), all the regular things to make a rifle reliable...
I'm not gonna tell you that spending 2.9k on a KAC is dumb and that PSA is just as good. But for 1.2k at PSA you CAN get a very capable and modern rifle.
Yes, it can be done, but by the time you upgrade a bottom quality AR, you're worse off than just buying a good one.
We actually did this for a friend of Pappabear's son. It was that S&W Sport thing. The upgrades weren't optional because we replaced stuff as it failed. Off the top of my head, we had to replace the buffer due to the roll pin walking out and hitting the action spring. And the Bolt catch broke.
There were another couple of thing I had to work on, but I can't remember. Between my labor and Pappabear's parts it was a losing investment, no question.
turnburglar
09-08-23, 23:27
Also I was looking more through PSA's website, and they have a new line called the "Sabre" line.
For $1050 I could pull this gun out of the box, slap my K18i on the top and go compete in a match. This has every single spec you could want in a high end modern rifle including the FDE cerakote and suppressor mount. Unreal.
https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-sabre-forged-13-7-fn-chf-cl-5-56-with-13-sabre-lock-up-and-jmac-gfhc-e-pin-weld-with-magpul-sl-furniture-fde-cerakote.html
shadowspirit
09-09-23, 01:50
The 'cost' of fixing up a budget rifle isn't as much as some people are making it sound. An AR15 IS NOT a car. In the car realm a civic will never be a porsche. But in the AR world you can make a PSA shoot as well as a Noveske (I can already hear the screams).
To make an AR simply reliable is actually very cheap. Let's first make some assumptions. The 'cheap' AR you bought has a chamber properly cut to 556 dimensions and feed ramps that are inspec with M4 style feed ramps. The only things you have to buy that most cheap AR's dont have:
- Good Ammo. $$$
- Good magazines. Pmag is the easy button here. $15
- Spring Co Extractor Spring with the insert. $5
- H2 buffer and a Colt buffer spring. $31 (expo arms/ Primary Arms)
So for a total of ~$60 in upgrades you have a reliable rifle. You should also do things like stake the castle nut on the buffer tube and check the staking on the gas key of the BCG. If the barrel is harshly over gassed (my PSA was not) then you can solve that with a $50 BRT gas tube.
If you actually wanted to 'upgrade' a rifle to compete with the big boys let's see what that would cost. For this experiment let's start with a base gun....
https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-14-7-chf-mid-length-5-56-nato-1-7-13-5-lightweight-m-lok-moe-ept-rifle.html
To make this gun have the rest of the features that most look for in a high end rifle I would add the following accessories:
Spring Co extractor upgrade kit: $5
H2 buffer & Spring: $31
Larue MBT 2s trigger: $89
Radian CH Safety Combo: $120
Magpul MBUS3: $90
Slate Black Ind Rail Covers & Grip: $35
Brings us to a total price tag of: $1,169 for a rifle that has a pretty high set of features; FN CHF barrel, C158 bolt, ambi controls, a great trigger, BUIS and proper heat shielding (a must on a hard use rifle), all the regular things to make a rifle reliable...
I'm not gonna tell you that spending 2.9k on a KAC is dumb and that PSA is just as good. But for 1.2k at PSA you CAN get a very capable and modern rifle.
@turnburglar : Thanks for the generous post.
My AR is probably over gassed but I think I'd prefer to have an adjustable gas block on it over the gas tube you mentioned.
I like my barrel more than the PSA one because it is 16", therefore I could put a suppressor on it in the future.
shadowspirit
09-09-23, 01:57
Yes, it can be done, but by the time you upgrade a bottom quality AR, you're worse off than just buying a good one.
We actually did this for a friend of Pappabear's son. It was that S&W Sport thing. The upgrades weren't optional because we replaced stuff as it failed. Off the top of my head, we had to replace the buffer due to the roll pin walking out and hitting the action spring. And the Bolt catch broke.
There were another couple of thing I had to work on, but I can't remember. Between my labor and Pappabear's parts it was a losing investment, no question.
I have the same S&W Sport you referred to above. It's the first one, but not made by Stag but made in house by S&W in 2012. Before the Sport II came out.
How many rounds were though that S&W before those things broke?
If the same thing broke on mine what would it cost parts and labor to fix it? A person can upgrade the parts referred to that failed as a sort of preventive maintenance thing.
I have the same S&W Sport you referred to above. It's the first one, but not made by Stag but made in house by S&W in 2012. Before the Sport II came out.
How many rounds were though that S&W before those things broke?
If the same thing broke on mine what would it cost parts and labor to fix it? A person can upgrade the parts referred to that failed as a sort of preventive maintenance thing.
Pretty much anything on the lower receiver that can break can be had for very little money. I personally like to buy pin/detent and spring kits from FCD along with their other small parts, but you definitely don’t need spend that much. SOLGW sells a blaster kit that has most everything but the trigger for under $40 if you look around. Sionics also makes a very good LPK with everything you need in it.
Labor shouldn’t cost you anything. The lower is easy to work on, and there’s lots of YouTube videos that will walk you through it.
The above is assuming the receiver was in spec. I’ve seen some budget brands that didn’t want to fit with parts, which could get annoying. Expensive lowers aren’t immune from defects either, but the chances of it tend to be less and CS tends to be better.
As for the upper receiver, anything to do with the barrel and hand guard is going to be more involved than the lower half, and prices for barrels and hand guards vary greatly depending on what you want.
Today, if I had an issue with a BCG that required more than just swapping out an extractor, springs, gas rings, etc, I’d probably just buy a new BCG instead of trying to fix it.
A gentleman with a fairly known YouTube channel, his first name may be Chris, claims the 20" Windham A4 is better than the Colt version, IIRC.
Small Arms Solutions? He previously worked for Colt. While he does have a lot of info, it always seemed to be a disgruntled ex-employee.
That being said, better how?
I live in ME and have gone to Windham. They are good people and put out good products. But I inquired about one of their A1s, they kept trying to push the A4. Wanted the fixed carry handle. Came down to them not being able to get those uppers, which I would have appreciated just being told instead of back/forth on why the A4 is better. Is what it is… and I’ve had quite a few coworkers buy from them (they do give good L/E discounts).
I also have a newer 6920, which I keep as a truck gun in instances where I don’t want to travel/file paperwork with my SBR. It may not have the old stampings, but I’d put it alongside any of our work M4s, without hesitation. I don’t think I’ve seen any person talk badly about Colt quality more than the movement away from building rifles towards assembling rifles. That being said, I only have one factory built AR… which is that Colt.
Also I was looking more through PSA's website, and they have a new line called the "Sabre" line.
For $1050 I could pull this gun out of the box, slap my K18i on the top and go compete in a match. This has every single spec you could want in a high end modern rifle including the FDE cerakote and suppressor mount. Unreal.
https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-sabre-forged-13-7-fn-chf-cl-5-56-with-13-sabre-lock-up-and-jmac-gfhc-e-pin-weld-with-magpul-sl-furniture-fde-cerakote.html
That’s really pretty cool for the price.
A feature that is often overlooked is that it is also available.
If it had a surefire mount on it I wouldn’t be able to help myself and would order one.
Oh, this is a serious thread, not just someone's attempt at stirring up conversation? That doesn't change my previous answer. Sell the entry level S&W and put the funds towards the replacement.
In roughly a minute's search I found a Colt OEM 1 on sale (and available) for $750. All it needs is $75 worth of Magpul MOE handguard and stock, and it's ready for use.
That's a grand total of $825 for the math challenged.
This question for an individual home defense / SHTF weapon? It reminds me more of sitting in a room with training staff that have no actual knowledge base on weapons while they try to tell me why they need an new weapon based on a magazine article.
For $1050 I could pull this gun out of the box, slap my K18i on the top and go compete in a match. This has every single spec you could want in a high end modern rifle including the FDE cerakote and suppressor mount. Unreal.
You could also use it like a pogo stick, that doesn't make it an effective weapon platform. Having a track record of spotty assembly, and overly enthusiast QC, makes it hard to take them serious as a choice for anything.
I have the same S&W Sport you referred to above. It's the first one, but not made by Stag but made in house by S&W in 2012. Before the Sport II came out.
How many rounds were though that S&W before those things broke?
Not many. It was new to the kid. He probably went out once or twice aside from shooting with us. Shit was falling off of that thing.
Hammer_Man
09-09-23, 21:16
Colt actually belongs in the less expensive group. I know where one can get a slightly used one for $700.
We’ll do share, cause I might need a factory Colt in my life.
We’ll do share, cause I might need a factory Colt in my life.
Allied Arms, Summerville, SC.
DS Arms is best known for their FAL lineup, but they do have some AR offerings. Haven't heard any feedback on their overall quality though.
ViniVidivici
09-10-23, 08:31
DS Arms is best known for their FAL lineup, but they do have some AR offerings. Haven't heard any feedback on their overall quality though.
I have one of their barrels in a build, and one of their complete BCGs in another gun.
The barrel is great. FSB, chrome lined, and for being run of the mill rack grade, very accurate. I'm very happy with it.
The BCG is 100% for reliability, but I did just have to change the gas rings at around 500 rounds, not cool (no reliability issue, but didn't pass "the test" at last cleaning). It's nitride, and the inner bore of the carrier doesn't seem rough, so maybe it was just cheap rings.
So we'll see as time marches on.
I have one of their barrels in a build, and one of their complete BCGs in another gun.
The barrel is great. FSB, chrome lined, and for being run of the mill rack grade, very accurate. I'm very happy with it.
The BCG is 100% for reliability, but I did just have to change the gas rings at around 500 rounds, not cool (no reliability issue, but didn't pass "the test" at last cleaning). It's nitride, and the inner bore of the carrier doesn't seem rough, so maybe it was just cheap rings.
So we'll see as time marches on.
Browsing their website, it seems that they manufacture their own barrels, BCG's, and various other small parts. They also claim to have been a manufacturer of the M16 rifle, but I don't think the US Government has purchased M16's in some time, except maybe for foreign contracts? From their website:
"In addition DSA now produces the M16 series rifle and components which are supplied to OEM customers. DSA produces 80% of the parts for the M16 and uses no imported parts on production rifles unless a foreign made accessory is specified by the customer. As with the FAL, DSA is a true fabricator of the M16 type rifles."
We’ll do share, cause I might need a factory Colt in my life.
Not seeing a link, and the given website does nothing on my end.
Not seeing a link, and the given website does nothing on my end.
Its a consignment gun. I don’t think they put those on their (shitty) website.
Point was that Colts can be had for pretty low prices relative to fixer-uppers.
There are the less expensive ARs like S&W and Ruger. Then there are the more expensive ones like Colt, BCM, LMT, Nights Armament, etc.
Can a budget priced AR such as the S&W and Ruger be brought up to the quality of the more expensive ones with money invested in it?
Even more specifically, can the lower priced ARs be brought up to the level or reliability and durability of the more expensive ARs with the infusion of money to replace various parts?
I know the barrel of the Ruger and S&W will not last as long or be quite as accurate as the expensive ARs, so lets not consider barrels in this question.
Possible things to replace are the shoulder stock and the stock over the barrel with something simple but stronger. A trigger/hammer assembly with a good reputation. Maybe higher quality pins and springs. An aftermarket bolt carrier group. Etc.
First off one must understand what determines the quality of an AR?
We’ll do share, cause I might need a factory Colt in my life.
PM for a local place near me...they have a decent amount of used LE guns
I almost don’t want to ask as discussing Colt ARs can result in a lot of hate and discontent but what are the latest reports with Colt now that they are owned by CZ?
I’ve collected and have several of the “older” Colts and love them but haven’t paid attention to the CZ variant.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I almost don’t want to ask as discussing Colt ARs can result in a lot of hate and discontent but what are the latest reports with Colt now that they are owned by CZ?
I’ve collected and have several of the “older” Colts and love them but haven’t paid attention to the CZ variant.
I haven't seen any threads on the topic of recently purchased Colts being unreliable, parts breaking, un-accurate, or any other negative aspects. This leads me to believe they're either:
a) as good as the old Colts
b) sitting in people's safes without ever being shot
c) sitting on dealer shelves, unsold
My best guess is that the correct answer is a.
The 'cost' of fixing up a budget rifle isn't as much as some people are making it sound. An AR15 IS NOT a car. In the car realm a civic will never be a porsche. But in the AR world you can make a PSA shoot as well as a Noveske (I can already hear the screams).
To make an AR simply reliable is actually very cheap. Let's first make some assumptions. The 'cheap' AR you bought has a chamber properly cut to 556 dimensions and feed ramps that are inspec with M4 style feed ramps. The only things you have to buy that most cheap AR's dont have:
- Good Ammo. $$$
- Good magazines. Pmag is the easy button here. $15
- Spring Co Extractor Spring with the insert. $5
- H2 buffer and a Colt buffer spring. $31 (expo arms/ Primary Arms)
So for a total of ~$60 in upgrades you have a reliable rifle. You should also do things like stake the castle nut on the buffer tube and check the staking on the gas key of the BCG. If the barrel is harshly over gassed (my PSA was not) then you can solve that with a $50 BRT gas tube.
If you actually wanted to 'upgrade' a rifle to compete with the big boys let's see what that would cost. For this experiment let's start with a base gun....
https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-14-7-chf-mid-length-5-56-nato-1-7-13-5-lightweight-m-lok-moe-ept-rifle.html
To make this gun have the rest of the features that most look for in a high end rifle I would add the following accessories:
Spring Co extractor upgrade kit: $5
H2 buffer & Spring: $31
Larue MBT 2s trigger: $89
Radian CH Safety Combo: $120
Magpul MBUS3: $90
Slate Black Ind Rail Covers & Grip: $35
Brings us to a total price tag of: $1,169 for a rifle that has a pretty high set of features; FN CHF barrel, C158 bolt, ambi controls, a great trigger, BUIS and proper heat shielding (a must on a hard use rifle), all the regular things to make a rifle reliable...
I'm not gonna tell you that spending 2.9k on a KAC is dumb and that PSA is just as good. But for 1.2k at PSA you CAN get a very capable and modern rifle.
For that kind of money, you can get a Colt 6960.
You could also use it like a pogo stick, that doesn't make it an effective weapon platform. Having a track record of spotty assembly, and overly enthusiast QC, makes it hard to take them serious as a choice for anything.
One of these days when I have money burning a hole in my pocket I am going to buy one of their rifles, tear it completely down to the detents and springs, and do a proper assembly and see how long it will hold up (and what I will find in the process.)
Can a budget priced AR such as the S&W and Ruger be brought up to the quality of the more expensive ones with money invested in it?
There's a bunch of info in this thread which speaks to your question. Some product info may be a bit dated or specific members no longer available but much is still GTG.
"Oh No! I bought a BM/RRA/Stag before I knew better!"
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?7376-quot-Oh-No!-I-bought-a-BM-RRA-Stag-before-I-knew-better!-quot
shadowspirit
09-11-23, 22:06
Small Arms Solutions? He previously worked for Colt. While he does have a lot of info, it always seemed to be a disgruntled ex-employee.
That being said, better how?
I live in ME and have gone to Windham. They are good people and put out good products. But I inquired about one of their A1s, they kept trying to push the A4. Wanted the fixed carry handle. Came down to them not being able to get those uppers, which I would have appreciated just being told instead of back/forth on why the A4 is better. Is what it is… and I’ve had quite a few coworkers buy from them (they do give good L/E discounts).
I also have a newer 6920, which I keep as a truck gun in instances where I don’t want to travel/file paperwork with my SBR. It may not have the old stampings, but I’d put it alongside any of our work M4s, without hesitation. I don’t think I’ve seen any person talk badly about Colt quality more than the movement away from building rifles towards assembling rifles. That being said, I only have one factory built AR… which is that Colt.
Yes, that's him.
shadowspirit
09-11-23, 22:09
Not many. It was new to the kid. He probably went out once or twice aside from shooting with us. Shit was falling off of that thing.
Recall when it was made?
shadowspirit
09-11-23, 22:12
PM for a local place near me...they have a decent amount of used LE guns
But at what price and in what condition?
But at what price and in what condition?
The consignment Colt 6920 for $700 I mentioned looks like its never been fired. I considered buying it myself, but I have enough guns.
You can get them new in some places for under $1k.
The consignment Colt 6920 for $700 I mentioned looks like its never been fired. I considered buying it myself, but I have enough guns.
You can get them new in some places for under $1k.
You have solid willpower, I would buy it right now, then probably kick myself later knowing I could get a brand new one for $750. (OEM series)
The purpose of the rifle is SHTF.
Good point about total investment exceeding the cost of the Colt. OTOH, it could wind up being better than the Colt. For example, I'm guessing there are aftermarket BCGs that are better than Colts. Another issue is some claim the latest Colts went down in quality. I have no idea whether that is true or not. The are marked CR instead of LE. A gentleman with a fairly known YouTube channel, his first name may be Chris, claims the 20" Windham A4 is better than the Colt version, IIRC.
In that video, he only says that the windham might only be better in the finish due to his personal preference in the finish. Nothing to be said about the actual functional quality. And I’ve talked to him personally to ask him about the current quality of colts - he stated they’re still excellent, duty grade rifles.
In that video, he only says that the windham might only be better in the finish due to his personal preference in the finish. Nothing to be said about the actual functional quality. And I’ve talked to him personally to ask him about the current quality of colts - he stated they’re still excellent, duty grade rifles.
*DING* Windham has left the chat. Permanently.
Too soon?
For that kind of money, you can get a Colt 6960.
spot on
The 'cost' of fixing up a budget rifle isn't as much as some people are making it sound. An AR15 IS NOT a car. In the car realm a civic will never be a porsche. But in the AR world you can make a PSA shoot as well as a Noveske (I can already hear the screams).
To make an AR simply reliable is actually very cheap. Let's first make some assumptions. The 'cheap' AR you bought has a chamber properly cut to 556 dimensions and feed ramps that are inspec with M4 style feed ramps. The only things you have to buy that most cheap AR's dont have:
- Good Ammo. $$$
- Good magazines. Pmag is the easy button here. $15
- Spring Co Extractor Spring with the insert. $5
- H2 buffer and a Colt buffer spring. $31 (expo arms/ Primary Arms)
So for a total of ~$60 in upgrades you have a reliable rifle. You should also do things like stake the castle nut on the buffer tube and check the staking on the gas key of the BCG. If the barrel is harshly over gassed (my PSA was not) then you can solve that with a $50 BRT gas tube.
If you actually wanted to 'upgrade' a rifle to compete with the big boys let's see what that would cost. For this experiment let's start with a base gun....
https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-14-7-chf-mid-length-5-56-nato-1-7-13-5-lightweight-m-lok-moe-ept-rifle.html
To make this gun have the rest of the features that most look for in a high end rifle I would add the following accessories:
Spring Co extractor upgrade kit: $5
H2 buffer & Spring: $31
Larue MBT 2s trigger: $89
Radian CH Safety Combo: $120
Magpul MBUS3: $90
Slate Black Ind Rail Covers & Grip: $35
Brings us to a total price tag of: $1,169 for a rifle that has a pretty high set of features; FN CHF barrel, C158 bolt, ambi controls, a great trigger, BUIS and proper heat shielding (a must on a hard use rifle), all the regular things to make a rifle reliable...
I'm not gonna tell you that spending 2.9k on a KAC is dumb and that PSA is just as good. But for 1.2k at PSA you CAN get a very capable and modern rifle.
can't take anyone advocating for psa, especially at this price, serious. Hell, for a few bucks more you can buy a Centurion Arms and you're not comparing anything from psa to that.
There are the less expensive ARs like S&W and Ruger. Then there are the more expensive ones like Colt, BCM, LMT, Nights Armament, etc.
Can a budget priced AR such as the S&W and Ruger be brought up to the quality of the more expensive ones with money invested in it?
Even more specifically, can the lower priced ARs be brought up to the level or reliability and durability of the more expensive ARs with the infusion of money to replace various parts?
I know the barrel of the Ruger and S&W will not last as long or be quite as accurate as the expensive ARs, so lets not consider barrels in this question.
Possible things to replace are the shoulder stock and the stock over the barrel with something simple but stronger. A trigger/hammer assembly with a good reputation. Maybe higher quality pins and springs. An aftermarket bolt carrier group. Etc.
"Quality" is something that happens during the manufacture of parts, and assembly of components to ensure that sub-par parts and incorrect assembly procedures are avoided. Therefore you cannot "increase quality" without changing the manufacturing process.
You can replace defective parts with parts that meet or exceed the specifications, but that would seem to me being "fixing something that is broken."
If the question is, "Can I put a better made barrel (or other part) on a cheap gun and see an improvement?" To that, the answer would most likely be, "Maybe."
The next question is, "Is it worth it?" And, that would depend on the individual.
"Quality" is something that happens during the manufacture of parts, and assembly of components to ensure that sub-par parts and incorrect assembly procedures are avoided. Therefore you cannot "increase quality" without changing the manufacturing process.
You can replace defective parts with parts that meet or exceed the specifications, but that would seem to me being "fixing something that is broken."
If the question is, "Can I put a better made barrel (or other part) on a cheap gun and see an improvement?" To that, the answer would most likely be, "Maybe."
The next question is, "Is it worth it?" And, that would depend on the individual.
Thats a great explanation of what actually determines quality in the first place. The characteristics of quality...
Good parts aren't necessarily cheap, when I add up the components I use in my builds, they add up very quickly and easily surpass the cost of a complete Colt, BCM or DD rifle.
It really depends on what you are starting with.....For most budget rifles you probably will need to replace the BCG with a reliable one. What if the barrel is crap? Do you trust what they did with the gas tube?
Barrel and BCG is where I would start my surgery as they're the most likely candidates for companies cutting corners and costs.
To do it right, you're going to easily go over the cost of a new Colt.
But, I have done it to one rifle....Just don't expect it to be cheap or cost effective to do correctly. Best to do it slowly when you find sales on quality components.
Once you learn how and where to source quality components, gauge them, and then properly assemble them according to the TM it's possible to build a quality AR for less than a 6920 including better furniture.
You probably can, but it probably doesn't make sense to bother. If someone is just looking to get their foot in the door at a low price, why not get a Colt 6920 and call it a day? The LE6920-OEM1 is under $850. I personally would consider that the floor for "entry level" AR15.
I have a 6520, and 6920 that have been with me for over a decade. Never had an issue. There's plenty of time for other AR15's by company X, but Colt is the ideal starting point for those on a budget, without the concern of needing to "fix" problems.
You probably can, but it probably doesn't make sense to bother. If someone is just looking to get their foot in the door at a low price, why not get a Colt 6920 and call it a day? The LE6920-OEM1 is under $850. I personally would consider that the floor for "entry level" AR15.
I have a 6520, and 6920 that have been with me for over a decade. Never had an issue. There's plenty of time for other AR15's by company X, but Colt is the ideal starting point for those on a budget, without the concern of needing to "fix" problems.
I'm not usually a Colt fan boi, but if I had to go back to the beginning and start this AR thing all over again, that is where I would have started too. Then from there I would have started building. But upgrading a 6920 with a few basic things can take you far and deep into this "hobby." Instead I cut my teeth building (after my ban Bushy and the AWB expired) using less than stellar components. Which, actually, was good in that it taught me how to trouble shoot without the resources on the interwebs we have now.
Can I take a hobby grade rifle, change some parts and end up with a "just as good as" or better rifle than a factory built 6920 for cheaper?
No.
Can I take a hobby grade rifle, change some parts and end up with a "just as good as" or better rifle than a factory built 6920 for cheaper?
No.
Thank You!
At what point does your junky AR cost more than a Colt that is 800-1150$ depending on the day?
This exactly. I think people need to wake up to the fact that Colt enjoys many government contracts even after losing the M4 to FN. The recovered all of their R&D expenses and setup costs a LONG time ago. They are the closest thing this country has to a state arsenal. They make better rifles that are cheaper than anyone else making a similar rifle.
This exactly. I think people need to wake up to the fact that Colt enjoys many government contracts even after losing the M4 to FN. The recovered all of their R&D expenses and setup costs a LONG time ago. They are the closest thing this country has to a state arsenal. They make better rifles that are cheaper than anyone else making a similar rifle.
With the depth of research they have done, I still hope some “cool” things continue to come from their refining the AR.
Personally, I’m still curious about the new FN rifle and whether it sneaks in as a new service rifle. That would be a whole new weapon system.
Colt needs to win another contract for rifles or they are toast. I love Colt but who are we kidding here? Colt won't survive the civie mkt as they've said fu for too long to civies, lack any real innovation, marketing is awful and seem about as energetic as a geriatric at rock concert where everyone is on speed
I just purchase a new Colt SOCOM FSP bbl and a stripped upper and the rest NOS parts. Gonna send the bbl to John Thomas for a P&W. It will get a Vortex LPVO and some 77 gr OTM. We'll see what happens.
Colt needs to win another contract for rifles or they are toast. I love Colt but who are we kidding here? Colt won't survive the civie mkt as they've said fu for too long to civies, lack any real innovation, marketing is awful and seem about as energetic as a geriatric at rock concert where everyone is on speed
^^^This 100%, Colt got rid of all their best engineers and replaced them with Used Car Salesmen looking for contracts with foreign governments instead of catering to those thousands of Vets just getting out of the military after using their products. If 13 years ago I could get a Colt with a Mid-length GS and a Free-float rail, I would have, but I couldn't so I got a DD instead and really never looked back. Then around 2014 when the market recovered after Newtown I could have gotten a 6920 for $850 but I could order a BCM Middy and a Spikes Lower for $950 and it came with a Troy quadrail, as much as Colt is a good company and makes really good ARs, others came with more innovation and more features and just didn't make as much sense to the consumer to go with a Colt.
Diamondback
09-28-23, 16:55
Colt needs to win another contract for rifles or they are toast. I love Colt but who are we kidding here? Colt won't survive the civie mkt as they've said fu for too long to civies, lack any real innovation, marketing is awful and seem about as energetic as a geriatric at rock concert where everyone is on speed
Creepy, I was just reading an aerospace analyst saying the exact same thing about Boeing--he expects F-15EX to be their last "new airframe" contract for US mil and similar albeit less advanced stagnation and decay on the commercial side.
Where Colt has its advantage is you know when you buy one it has good bones. Barrel, BCG, upper and lower are all going to be of sound spec. Where I think CZ can help is expanding on that concept. If I could buy a Colt based rifle with some of the options being offered by companies like Centurion I would seriously consider it. I think that is their future if they chose to go down that path.
Or imagine if Colt came out with a "Clone Correct" line. There would be guys spooging all over themselves to get in on that.
Diamondback
09-28-23, 17:49
Or imagine if Colt came out with a "Clone Correct" line. There would be guys spooging all over themselves to get in on that.
Heck, import some of the improvements they own from Diemaco on the C7/C8... ask for a side-by-side shoot-off between an updated C8A3 and an FN M4 and my bet is Colt would have the better rifle this round.
I'm not usually a Colt fan boi, but if I had to go back to the beginning and start this AR thing all over again, that is where I would have started too. Then from there I would have started building. But upgrading a 6920 with a few basic things can take you far and deep into this "hobby." Instead I cut my teeth building (after my ban Bushy and the AWB expired) using less than stellar components. Which, actually, was good in that it taught me how to trouble shoot without the resources on the interwebs we have now.
If I lost all my weapons in a boating accident and had to start from scratch with budget being a concern, I'd start with a 6920 and call it a day.
Nothing wrong with someone wanting a Saint Victor (I own one). There's a lot wrong with getting a Saint Victor over a 6920 as a first AR15.
If I lost all my weapons in a boating accident and had to start from scratch with budget being a concern, I'd start with a 6920 and call it a day.
Nothing wrong with someone wanting a Saint Victor (I own one). There's a lot wrong with getting a Saint Victor over a 6920 as a first AR15.
When I started building it was all about fancy coatings and new designs. I did some interesting builds over the years following trends. A lot of times just to see if they worked better / worse. I look in my safe now and I have three, go to ARs that I built. They all have a few things in common. Chrome lined phosphate barrels and quad rails. Feels like things came full circle. Which is why, I think, I could be perfectly happy with a 6920 as a base rifle.
What are the features everybody wants that Colt doesn’t offer?
Everybody says mid-length and a free-float rail. 6960.
Match triggers and furniture are very much personal preference and I’ve switched it out on new guns because I didn’t like what came stock (looking at you, DD).
Is it some kind of special coating or proprietary bolt that sells a rifle?
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Colt was never in the marketing game. They never promoted their AR, described what went into the manufacturing and assembly processes, gave any details on how they arrived at specs, why changes were made, shared any results from their sample size of millions.
The end users are more knowledgeable nowadays and like a lot of information and data. Competitors marketing that type of information about their own products led many away from Colt.
Even today nobody really knows much about the current 6920's...are they manufactured by colt, outsourced, same quality, same standards, whats changed, whats not.
What are the features everybody wants that Colt doesn’t offer?
Everybody says mid-length and a free-float rail. 6960.
Yes I wanted a Free Float rail in 2011, it took Colt 11 years to listen to me. I still think they make a great rifle, but way too late the party where BCM, DD (Totally need a better trigger) Noveske, Geissele, Centurion, LMT, SOLGW, SIONICS, Knights, Ballistic Advantage, PWS, Palmetto State, FN, IWI, ADM, JP, Radian, Spikes, LARUE, STAG, Hodge, SIG, Lantac, Grey Ghost Precision, and maybe 50 more, actually listened in a much shorter timeframe. If I could get a 14.5" SOCOM 6940 for $1300, I would shell out that money in a heart beat, now all I have to do is wait until 2045 and they just might come through...
Or imagine if Colt came out with a "Clone Correct" line. There would be guys spooging all over themselves to get in on that.
They did with the retro series, unfortunately it seems they outsourced most of it and produced hobby rifles rather then spec correct retros.
Yes I wanted a Free Float rail in 2011, it took Colt 11 years to listen to me. I still think they make a great rifle, but way too late the party where BCM, DD (Totally need a better trigger) Noveske, Geissele, Centurion, LMT, SOLGW, SIONICS, Knights, Ballistic Advantage, PWS, Palmetto State, FN, IWI, ADM, JP, Radian, Spikes, LARUE, STAG, Hodge, SIG, Lantac, Grey Ghost Precision, and maybe 50 more, actually listened in a much shorter timeframe. If I could get a 14.5" SOCOM 6940 for $1300, I would shell out that money in a heart beat, now all I have to do is wait until 2045 and they just might come through...
Didn’t the 6960 come out six years ago? My buddy bought a free-float Colt in 2011. It had a DD rail on it from the factory. Then there was the 6940…
ETA if a 6940 with SOCOM barrel is your dream, build it. It’s not hard.
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Didn’t the 6960 come out six years ago? My buddy bought a free-float Colt in 2011. It had a DD rail on it from the factory. Then there was the 6940…
ETA if a 6940 with SOCOM barrel is your dream, build it. It’s not hard.
Yes, it took them some time when all the previous brands I mentioned came to the realization much earlier, and I might build out a 6940 with a socom barrel, but I wouldn't call it my dream build, I've come down to 6 ARs in 5.56 and I have enough parts to probably put together 2 or 3 more, but that isn't really my focus currently, I've got NV and optics to upgrade. I am a Marine, and I love the Marine Corps, but I'll be the first one to admit that the Marine Corps fails in a lot of ways, the same could be said for Colt.
Yes I wanted a Free Float rail in 2011, it took Colt 11 years to listen to me. I still think they make a great rifle, but way too late the party where BCM, DD (Totally need a better trigger) Noveske, Geissele, Centurion, LMT, SOLGW, SIONICS, Knights, Ballistic Advantage, PWS, Palmetto State, FN, IWI, ADM, JP, Radian, Spikes, LARUE, STAG, Hodge, SIG, Lantac, Grey Ghost Precision, and maybe 50 more, actually listened in a much shorter timeframe. If I could get a 14.5" SOCOM 6940 for $1300, I would shell out that money in a heart beat, now all I have to do is wait until 2045 and they just might come through...
Ok, but why would any of that matter to someone who is looking at buying a new rifle now? Who cares when a company first released something as long as it's available now? Like if I really wanted a midlength Colt with a free float barrel, and they are available to buy now, should I refuse to buy one just because they weren't the first to offer them in the past? Doesn't seem to make sense.
Ok, but why would any of that matter to someone who is looking at buying a new rifle now? Who cares when a company first released something as long as it's available now? Like if I really wanted a midlength Colt with a free float barrel, and they are available to buy now, should I refuse to buy one just because they weren't the first to offer them in the past? Doesn't seem to make sense.
No, it shouldn't. By all means buy a Colt, I'm just saying why I didn't, and why I believe Colt failed to change fast enough to maintain what should have been their market.
I am their market, and I don't care much for change. Luv me some carbine stuff. Colt owns the carbine gas guns. If ya don't care for carbine gas, lots of options are out there, just get ya some, no need to trash Colt.
"Quality" is something that happens during the manufacture of parts, and assembly of components to ensure that sub-par parts and incorrect assembly procedures are avoided. Therefore you cannot "increase quality" without changing the manufacturing process.
You can replace defective parts with parts that meet or exceed the specifications, but that would seem to me being "fixing something that is broken."
If the question is, "Can I put a better made barrel (or other part) on a cheap gun and see an improvement?" To that, the answer would most likely be, "Maybe."
The next question is, "Is it worth it?" And, that would depend on the individual.
Quality is also the result of selecting the right materials to start with prior to manufacturing.
Thats what I like about SOLGW, look at their description of their BCG for example, everything is there.
Yes, I'd like a free float hand guard, but to the best of my knowledge, no one offers a hand guard I want on a factory built AR. I've built a few ARs. I'd say that if I had to do it over, I'd just get a 6920 and configure it the way I wanted, but back then, Colts were commanding ridiculous prices.
They did with the retro series, unfortunately it seems they outsourced most of it and produced hobby rifles rather then spec correct retros.
Is this something you've observed first hand? According to some sources, the Colt retros were well done using tooling provided by Colt.
Yes, I'd like a free float hand guard, but to the best of my knowledge, no one offers a hand guard I want on a factory built AR. I've built a few ARs. I'd say that if I had to do it over, I'd just get a 6920 and configure it the way I wanted, but back then, Colts were commanding ridiculous prices.
Is this something you've observed first hand? According to some sources, the Colt retros were well done using tooling provided by Colt.
It was the consensus of people I consider "pretty expert" who had first hand experience. All the threads were on this forum, you can look them up and decide for yourself.
There were two rifles I wanted to be successful and planned on owning, but in both cases they seemed to have offered a hobby grade rifle instead.
The FN semi M4 and the Colt Retro series.
shadowspirit
10-02-23, 19:05
Colt was never in the marketing game. They never promoted their AR, described what went into the manufacturing and assembly processes, gave any details on how they arrived at specs, why changes were made, shared any results from their sample size of millions.
The end users are more knowledgeable nowadays and like a lot of information and data. Competitors marketing that type of information about their own products led many away from Colt.
Even today nobody really knows much about the current 6920's...are they manufactured by colt, outsourced, same quality, same standards, whats changed, whats not.
The last sentence is the 100,000 dollar question. I wonder how we on here can find out.
The last sentence is the 100,000 dollar question. I wonder how we on here can find out.
Only takes 4 digits to buy the gun with a few cases of ammo to find out.
When’s the last time we had a “My Colt Broke” thread?
Diamondback
10-03-23, 10:31
Yes, I'd like a free float hand guard, but to the best of my knowledge, no one offers a hand guard I want on a factory built AR. I've built a few ARs. I'd say that if I had to do it over, I'd just get a 6920 and configure it the way I wanted, but back then, Colts were commanding ridiculous prices.
Isn't that why they rolled out the 6920OEM models?
shadowspirit
10-04-23, 23:31
What are the features everybody wants that Colt doesn’t offer?
Everybody says mid-length and a free-float rail. 6960.
Match triggers and furniture are very much personal preference and I’ve switched it out on new guns because I didn’t like what came stock (looking at you, DD).
Is it some kind of special coating or proprietary bolt that sells a rifle?
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One fellow that bought a 6960 said the fit and finish was awful.
It should be news to no one here that Colts typically come with a new minor scratches in the anodizing. They also don’t have perfect matching in non-critical places, like inside the trigger guard and where a MIAD’s beaver tail covers.
What matters still seems to be done right.
See post 76’s last sentence. I don’t even think anyone reported an actual problem for their trigger recall.
Given the state of the world, an associate asked what would be a "decent' rifle he could purchase at a reasonable price? Given his budget constraint, first time purchase, he picked up a S&W M&P with a vortex RDS for $800 ! In addition to a dozen pmags, 3k rds, and 2 training classes. So, $2000 for rifle, optic, mags, and 3k ammo. Not bad.
One fellow that bought a 6960 said the fit and finish was awful.
I don’t care about “for and finish” so much as making sure it’s a running gun made of quality parts.
Last Colt I bought was two months ago and it actually had surprisingly good fit and finish for a Colt.
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One fellow that bought a 6960 said the fit and finish was awful.
If the fit and finish on your AR15 is good in 12 months, you definitely aren't shooting enough. Further, Colt was never known to be the prettiest of AR15's.
One fellow that bought a 6960 said the fit and finish was awful.
It wasn’t me. I have a 6960 upper, and it is great.
One fellow that bought a 6960 said the fit and finish was awful.
Wow, incredible! one fellow said.
One fellow that bought a 6960 said the fit and finish was awful.
The finish is awful. I dunno about the fit, what does that mean? Will there be some movement between the upper and lower? Yes. The reason for buying a 6920 is because you know it's built right, with no corner cutting, it's going to work. It's a true battle worthy rifle. If you want something pretty then you buy or build something else.
The finish is awful. I dunno about the fit, what does that mean? Will there be some movement between the upper and lower? Yes. The reason for buying a 6920 is because you know it's built right, with no corner cutting, it's going to work. It's a true battle worthy rifle. If you want something pretty then you buy or build something else.
I actually like the dull greenish gray of my old Colts. The black finish of the last 20+ years is just a protective finish, it's not 7 layers of fine lacquer. I've watched people buy a Springfield over a Colt because it "looks better."
shadowspirit
10-06-23, 23:17
I don’t care about “for and finish” so much as making sure it’s a running gun made of quality parts.
Last Colt I bought was two months ago and it actually had surprisingly good fit and finish for a Colt.
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Which model?
Advice from an unapologetic Coltard; if fit and finish is the metric you need to be happy, look elsewhere.
ChattanoogaPhil
10-07-23, 12:11
Everyone has their own budget... I get that. But you might give more consideration to purchasing the rifle that you really want. Trying to save a few bucks buying something else often doesn't work out as economically as ya think. Besides... a couple of the rifles you listed as 'more expensive' aren't much more than a tank or two of gas difference. With the cost of ammo these days... if you plan on shooting much it will soon dwarf the price of the rifle. A quality optic, light and maybe a trigger... you'll forget about the price of the rifle and be glad you chose what you wanted to begin with.
Good luck.
These threads are interesting and having so many choices is a good thing.
However it seems there is a considerable lack of confidence amongst purchasers including first time purchasers as well as those that already have at least some familiarity with the platform.
Of course I didn't know what I didn't know when I first started buying guns but I don't remember questioning or not having confidence in the quality of guns back in the day.
Use to you just went out and bought a gun and shot it.
That being said, has it always been this way or is it a result of having so many choices and so many online reviews and so much information without being able to determine whats credible and whats not?
These threads are interesting and having so many choices is a good thing.
However it seems there is a considerable lack of confidence amongst purchasers including first time purchasers as well as those that already have at least some familiarity with the platform.
Of course I didn't know what I didn't know when I first started buying guns but I don't remember questioning or not having confidence in the quality of guns back in the day.
Use to you just went out and bought a gun and shot it.
That being said, has it always been this way or is it a result of having so many choices and so many online reviews and so much information without being able to determine whats credible and whats not?
Internet/Social Media is large part of it for better or worse. It just takes one YouTuber to throw a pistol at a brick wall, and the next thing you know every internet forum is saying don't buy X because the sights will break off if you drop it on your carpet floor.
Which model?
M4A1/SOCOM
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It was the consensus of people I consider "pretty expert" who had first hand experience. All the threads were on this forum, you can look them up and decide for yourself.
There were two rifles I wanted to be successful and planned on owning, but in both cases they seemed to have offered a hobby grade rifle instead.
The FN semi M4 and the Colt Retro series.
I did see those posts. But I've also seen the replicas recommended by experts. The ARs were made using Colt supplied tooling by a company with a reputation for quality work. I've never seen any reports that the replicas failed to function or any actual data showing they fell short in quality. Basically, everything I saw was "He said, she said".
Isn't that why they rolled out the 6920OEM models?
You're right and that's my point. Colt gets criticized for not "offering anything new" and being "late to the game with free float tubes." But very few makers offer anything that's an actual improvement. Most "innovations" offered by other makers are different without being better or nothing but bling. Almost all my favorite ARs started with a Colt. I don't want to pay a premium for an AR with a free float tube from an "innovative" company only to strip off the FF tube and replace it with the FF tube I wanted in the first place.
If we were honest with ourselves, we realize Colt sells what we really want- A basic AR that, 99 times out of a hundred, is easy and economical to reconfigure the way we want it.
I don't want to pay a premium for an AR with a free float tube from an "innovative" company only to strip off the FF tube and replace it with the FF tube I wanted in the first place.
If we were honest with ourselves, we realize Colt sells what we really want- A basic AR that, 99 times out of a hundred, is easy and economical to reconfigure the way we want it.
Why wouldn't you buy a upper with the handguard you actually want? Does no one sell it?
Almost everyone seems to agree that carbine-length gas on a 16" barrel is sub-optimal, and few that have tried both prefer Government to tapered profile barrels. Why does Colt get a pass on this?
Why wouldn't you buy a upper with the handguard you actually want? Does no one sell it?
No one sells an upper I want with the hand guard I want and set up the way I want.
Almost everyone seems to agree that carbine-length gas on a 16" barrel is sub-optimal, and few that have tried both prefer Government to tapered profile barrels. Why does Colt get a pass on this?
Compared to the Colt 14 inch barrel, the Colt 16 inch barrel is sub-optimal. Compared to a properly gassed middie, it's sub-optimal. But the 6920 with it's sub-optimal 16 inch carbine barrel, shoots great. Not just acceptable- great. The 6920 shoots smoother than my PSA middie did. Today, the primary reason I'd buy a 16 inch middie over a 16 inch carbine is the middie looks better.
I admit, I have a preference for a tapered barrel for subjective and objective reasons. Barrel profiles is one area Colt could do better. Still, I'd rather buy a Colt, pull the barrel and sell it and buy the barrel I want than work with some of the "innovative" ARs I've seen out there.
Compared to the Colt 14 inch barrel, the Colt 16 inch barrel is sub-optimal. Compared to a properly gassed middie, it's sub-optimal. But the 6920 with it's sub-optimal 16 inch carbine barrel, shoots great. Not just acceptable- great. The 6920 shoots smoother than my PSA middie did. Today, the primary reason I'd buy a 16 inch middie over a 16 inch carbine is the middie looks better.
This appears self-contradicting. How can you say "Compared to a properly gassed middie, it's sub-optimal" and at the same time "Today, the primary reason I'd buy a 16 inch middie over a 16 inch carbine is the middie looks better" unless optimal in this case is merely about appearance?
Still, I'd rather buy a Colt, pull the barrel and sell it and buy the barrel I want than work with some of the "innovative" ARs I've seen out there.
I can understand the qualifier "than work with some of the 'innovative' ARs I've seen out there." But take away that undesirable option and what are you getting by buying a Colt if you're just going to rebarrel it and put on your preferred handguard? Why wouldn't you rather go full custom or DIY?
This appears self-contradicting. How can you say "Compared to a properly gassed middie, it's sub-optimal" and at the same time "Today, the primary reason I'd buy a 16 inch middie over a 16 inch carbine is the middie looks better" unless optimal in this case is merely about appearance?
As I said, the Colt with the suboptimal 16 inch carbine shoots great. The difference between a 16 inch carbine and a 16 inch middie is too small to make a practical difference when I’m shooting.
Choosing a middie primarily because it looks better may be contradictory. I won’t argue against it. But I’m blessed to be living in a time and place where I can make that choice for that reason. But we’re getting far afield from my original point.
I can understand the qualifier "than work with some of the 'innovative' ARs I've seen out there." But take away that undesirable option and what are you getting by buying a Colt if you're just going to rebarrel it and put on your preferred handguard? Why wouldn't you rather go full custom or DIY?
A couple of reasons-
-When I built a custom AR from hand selected parts, I got an AR with a lower resale value than it would have if I’d started with a Colt.
-Reassembling a Colt is less work than assembling an AR from parts. Unless the parts are from Colt. Believe me, I’ve done it both ways.
-A 69XX already has the correct small parts and springs. Buying a Colt AR really opened my eyes as to how an AR should be put together. The Colt trigger is horribly crunchy-ticky from the factory, but if you know how the smooth out the sears CORRECTLY, the trigger becomes very smooth.
-When I’m dead, my wife will get more money from the Colt ARs than the custom ARs.
I don’t think Colt ARs are perfect and deserve some of the criticisms leveled at them. I do think much of the bashing Colt gets is exaggerated and unwarranted. When weighing the pros and cons, I see no reason not to start with a Colt AR.
I haven’t built hundreds of ARs or even tens. But I have disassembled and reconfigured my own ARs over and over to experiment, test ideas and make refinements.
As I said, the Colt with the suboptimal 16 inch carbine shoots great. The difference between a 16 inch carbine and a 16 inch middie is too small to make a practical difference when I’m shooting.
Interesting. I've never shot a Colt carbine-gas 16" that I can recall, and I've never considered buying or building that configuration either simply due to reputation, e.g.
Carbine-length has worked for a long, long time with 11.5, 12.5, and 14.5, and is way over-gassed for a 16-incher. Adding a suppressor over-gasses a 14.5.
Buying a Colt AR really opened my eyes as to how an AR should be put together.
Would you elaborate on this?
I just put together another upper, Colt SOCOM bbl, from AU, Colt stripped upper from Midway. Looking thru a cut down Colt carry handle set at mechanical zero windage, 300 yd elevation, thru an AP comp m5 that was zeroed on another Colt upper and the red dot lollypops perfectly over the front sight post. I buggered some of the finish during assembly just to keep it real.
Internet/Social Media is large part of it for better or worse. It just takes one YouTuber to throw a pistol at a brick wall, and the next thing you know every internet forum is saying don't buy X because the sights will break off if you drop it on your carpet floor.
Let's not forget there has been a distinct drop in quality from even the top tier manufacturers (looking at you Learning Machining Together) during the pandemic years when everyone and their brother wanted guns and ammo. Heck, the blem business has taken on a whole market of its own. The things we took for granted pre pandemic crazyness we can no longer take for granted. And of course the interwebs didn't help.
Internet/Social Media is large part of it for better or worse. It just takes one YouTuber to throw a pistol at a brick wall, and the next thing you know every internet forum is saying don't buy X because the sights will break off if you drop it on your carpet floor.
Ok, but I've had that happen to 2 pistols- a Kahr CW380 at round 160, and a Glock 19 at.... maybe 1000-1500 rounds.
shadowspirit
10-10-23, 14:08
Let's not forget there has been a distinct drop in quality from even the top tier manufacturers (looking at you Learning Machining Together) during the pandemic years when everyone and their brother wanted guns and ammo. Heck, the blem business has taken on a whole market of its own. The things we took for granted pre pandemic crazyness we can no longer take for granted. And of course the interwebs didn't help.
Maybe a good ideas for someone who wants to buy an AR/M4 is to first get the serial number of the one from the retailer to be bought from. Then, call the manufacturer to see when it was made to avoid ones built around the height of the pandemic. I heard Ruger quality dropped some during this time.
shadowspirit
10-17-23, 21:37
Thanks.
Hammer_Man
10-18-23, 07:37
Maybe a good ideas for someone who wants to buy an AR/M4 is to first get the serial number of the one from the retailer to be bought from. Then, call the manufacturer to see when it was made to avoid ones built around the height of the pandemic. I heard Ruger quality dropped some during this time.
I don’t think that’s necessary. If you buy from a quality manufacturer that stands behind their product, they’ll take care of you if you have any issues. For example, I’ve had excellent customer support from Colt and Centurion Arms, and wouldn’t hesitate to purchase something they made during the panic.
ruckusjuice
10-20-23, 14:52
Colt definitely isn’t known for innovation or catering to the commercial market but the quality of their products is tough to deny. If Colt offered an OEM version of the 6960 (mid-length gas on a lighter-than-government barrel) they’d sell every single one they made.
Colt definitely isn’t known for innovation or catering to the commercial market but the quality of their products is tough to deny. If Colt offered an OEM version of the 6960 (mid-length gas on a lighter-than-government barrel) they’d sell every single one they made.
They sell everything they make now.
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jackblack73
10-20-23, 17:35
They sell everything they make now.
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Is that true? Their multiple bankruptcies suggests otherwise.
Is that true? Their multiple bankruptcies suggests otherwise.
Management, union labor, and being milk causes bankruptcies.
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One of my nicest ARs is built on an Anderson lower. The rest of the parts in the lower are from other makers, but when I was putting it together the Anderson was in the closet and I didn’t see the point to go get something else for the roll mark.
If you want a reliable rifle on the cheap putting it together from parts is the best way to go, in my opinion. A couple of my rifles are “high end” uppers on basic Aero lowers.
One of my nicest ARs is built on an Anderson lower. The rest of the parts in the lower are from other makers, but when I was putting it together the Anderson was in the closet and I didn’t see the point to go get something else for the roll mark.
If you want a reliable rifle on the cheap putting it together from parts is the best way to go, in my opinion. A couple of my rifles are “high end” uppers on basic Aero lowers.
At least it has a pony on it.
indianalex01
10-26-23, 00:15
The purpose of the rifle is SHTF.
Good point about total investment exceeding the cost of the Colt. OTOH, it could wind up being better than the Colt. For example, I'm guessing there are aftermarket BCGs that are better than Colts. Another issue is some claim the latest Colts went down in quality. I have no idea whether that is true or not. The are marked CR instead of LE. A gentleman with a fairly known YouTube channel, his first name may be Chris, claims the 20" Windham A4 is better than the Colt version, IIRC.
Chris is wrong. He has an axe to grind with colt. They fired him.
Colt bolts are top notch. Colt for the price is the best AR around. Always has been. It’s always been the gold standard. There are other great guns DD, LMT, KAC, LWRC. Colts are proven. Bet your life reliability. Their quality is the same as it’s always been. Solid.
Windham isn’t even in the same league. They batch test their bolts and barrels. Colts does every single one. The quality is in what you don’t see.
indianalex01
10-26-23, 00:24
Colt definitely isn’t known for innovation or catering to the commercial market but the quality of their products is tough to deny. If Colt offered an OEM version of the 6960 (mid-length gas on a lighter-than-government barrel) they’d sell every single one they made.
I have to correct you on your post respectfully. The 6960 isn’t gov profile. Is slightly larger than pencil barrel but thinner the gov.
Colt has always been a leader in innovation. Think Monolithic uppers (done before LMT but failed to patent it), Piston guns, 9mm AR’s, 308 AR’s that can be made to use a 556 upper on 30 seconds, M5 carbine, SCW (Sub Compact Weapon). Most of these have been copied by others. I just needed to correct you when it came to you saying they don’t innovate. That was complete BS. Now the real problem is, Colt sucks at marketing. Beyond Terrible. Colt is there own worst enemy most of the time.
I have to correct you on your post respectfully. The 6960 isn’t gov profile. Is slightly larger than pencil barrel but thinner the gov.
Colt has always been a leader in innovation. Think Monolithic uppers (done before LMT but failed to patent it), Piston guns, 9mm AR’s, 308 AR’s that can be made to use a 556 upper on 30 seconds, M5 carbine, SCW (Sub Compact Weapon). Most of these have been copied by others. I just needed to correct you when it came to you saying they don’t innovate. That was complete BS. Now the real problem is, Colt sucks at marketing. Beyond Terrible. Colt is there own worst enemy most of the time.
That Colt no longer exists. They're now owned by CZ and no longer have the big gov contract. That changes everything about them.
indianalex01
10-26-23, 08:30
That Colt no longer exists. They're now owned by CZ and no longer have the big gov contract. That changes everything about them.
Huh?? They are still a company. Colt has changed ownership so many times it’s redonkulas. By the way, they still have gov contracts and many for overseas militaries and police. Please post factually on here. Let’s don’t ruin a good thread with disinformation. Also what does in change about them?
They released the M5 which was developed in 2011. which would’ve been the 1st ambie lower out at that time. They are rereleasing the Colt AR10 with upgrades…. Rereleased the wheel guns.. what do you want them to do???
…They are rereleasing the Colt AR10 with upgrades…
The 901/CM762/M7? Details?
At least it has a pony on it.
Ha. True. I also have a couple Geissele and FNs that are my “serious” guns, but I do believe you can certainly cut costs on basic parts like lowers as long as they are in spec.
indianalex01
10-27-23, 00:06
The 901/CM762/M7? Details?
Don’t be Lazy… all the info is out there for you. Colts websight and arms unlimited. Cum back and tell us what you found. Thanks.
Don’t be Lazy… all the info is out there for you. Colts websight and arms unlimited. Cum back and tell us what you found. Thanks.
OK, so nothing new and actually available on the civilian side. Got it. As always with your posts, your insight is appreciated.
Chris is wrong. He has an axe to grind with colt. They fired him.
Colt bolts are top notch. Colt for the price is the best AR around. Always has been. It’s always been the gold standard. There are other great guns DD, LMT, KAC, LWRC. Colts are proven. Bet your life reliability. Their quality is the same as it’s always been. Solid.
Windham isn’t even in the same league. They batch test their bolts and barrels. Colts does every single one. The quality is in what you don’t see.
agree on Colt, laughable for anyone to suggest otherwise
I usually say Colt, the Centurion Arms, then LMT/KAC on the ladder up.
Ha. True. I also have a couple Geissele and FNs that are my “serious” guns, but I do believe you can certainly cut costs on basic parts like lowers as long as they are in spec.
I also have an Anderson lower that I built with a Colt LPK. Seems to work fine.
That Colt no longer exists. They're now owned by CZ and no longer have the big gov contract. That changes everything about them.
just stop, you look foolish
shadowspirit
10-30-23, 03:47
Chris is wrong. He has an axe to grind with colt. They fired him.
Colt bolts are top notch. Colt for the price is the best AR around. Always has been. It’s always been the gold standard. There are other great guns DD, LMT, KAC, LWRC. Colts are proven. Bet your life reliability. Their quality is the same as it’s always been. Solid.
Windham isn’t even in the same league. They batch test their bolts and barrels. Colts does every single one. The quality is in what you don’t see.
How much does the BCG Colt uses? Which one is it? I'm guessing a person can buy one directly from Colt.
How much does the BCG Colt uses? Which one is it? I'm guessing a person can buy one directly from Colt.
I didn’t understand your first sentence. I don’t try to but Colt parts from Colt, since there are numerous other options.
Wet Worx is running a sale on Colt BCG for 179.00.
shadowspirit
10-31-23, 02:24
How much does the BCG Colt uses? Which one is it? I'm guessing a person can buy one directly from Colt.
I didn’t understand your first sentence. I don’t try to but Colt parts from Colt, since there are numerous other options.
I was a bit tired when I wrote that. I meant how much money does it cost for the BCG Colt uses in their rifles? Which BCG does Colt use? I'm guessing they out source it rather than produce it in house, which I guess means a person can buy the same one.
shadowspirit
10-31-23, 02:27
Wet Worx is running a sale on Colt BCG for 179.00.
Ouch! That's quite a bit.
I haven’t priced them for a couple years, but at that time any price under $180 was good.
Today, this could be a great price
….should be really easy for you to find out.
All mine are late 90s military production and I paid a helluva lot more than that. Wouldn't trade them for a new Buick. Right now that's the cheapest price I'm seeing for Colt, lots of cheaper alternatives as I'm sure you will soon hear.
titsonritz
10-31-23, 14:43
Right now that's the cheapest price I'm seeing for Colt, lots of cheaper alternatives as I'm sure you will soon hear.
Cheapest I’m seeing for Colt as well and the best of “cheaper ones” aren’t that much cheaper.
I’d like to find a decent deal on a few Colt carriers, I already have several bolts.
Ouch! That's quite a bit.
depends
I'm going to sell a c stamped grey carrier with bolt that is selling for close to 250 every time they come up. it's the cloner one
can't get them any longer so they price is up
nothing Colt, older Colt,is cheap
shadowspirit
11-02-23, 13:17
Thanks, all.
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