View Full Version : UAW strike
FromMyColdDeadHand
09-23-23, 09:55
Seems like a roll back to. when the auto unions made american cars uncompetitive. Though the management with crappy designs and the govt changing environmental standards were as large or bigger drivers of the decline- and those forces are here also this time.
40% pay raise and a 4 day week? I'm not sure on the details, was hoping for some thoughts here. I know that 4 day work weeks leads to higher personal bankruptcy- one more day to play and spend money- seen it happen. Frankly I think the gov is more than happy to have the personal car market get unobtainable for individuals- all the better to get people into public transport and ride share.
That Trumnp and Biden are on the UAW side has to have the autocompanies a little concerned...
SomeOtherGuy
09-23-23, 10:19
Looks to me like the UAW has three major demands:
1) 40% wage increase over 4 years. On the face of it this is ridiculous, but we have had a lot of inflation in the last 3-4 years and it continues today. So far Big 3 are offering 20%, there is also bargaining over an inflation-index adjustment.
2) Pay for 40 hours of work while only working 32. I think this is DOA and pretty ridiculous. Not to mention that a lot of those workers aren't productive for all 40 hours that they are clocked in anyway.
3) Ending the two-tier pay structure that was agreed back in 2008 when the Big 3 went into bankruptcy (GM, Chrysler) or teetered on edge (Ford). I can see the UAW position on this.
However, while I can understand the UAW demands for 2/3 issues, I'm not all that sympathetic or interested. The UAW is a major drag on US manufacturing and regardless of inflation the wages for their longer time employees are generous relative to the skill and danger of the work involved. Maybe not quite as ridiculous as before the automaker bankruptcies, but better than most other factory workers have. Here's an article looking at worker productivity:
https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/does-uaw-union-merit-huge-raise
You can see that the autoworkers are offering rapidly declining productivity in recent years, while other US manufacturing is flat and other US employment is positive. This doesn't support a huge increase in pay!
I've lived most of my life in a "union state" and have seen the UAW effect on once-prosperous cities. I also know that many UAW workers live upper middle class lifestyles while blathering about worker mistreatment and what not. It was once normal for a UAW household to have a vacation home, a boat, and a new car every year (with employee discounts and subsidies). Even with the current pre-strike contracts, someone who manages to get hired as a UAW autoworker can realistically get into a middle class lifestyle by their early 20's, without the delay and debt of college.
Also, while the Big 3 tried using robots way back in the 1980's, the industry is less automated than many others. I expect that will change and will produce better, cheaper products from the companies that manage to go to automation. The UAW is fighting this for obvious reasons, and basically handicap if not cripple the companies that are stuck with them.
Looks like Ford might reach a contract and the other two might dig in for a long fight. I currently own GM products but for various reasons I see mostly Toyota in my future.
Other selected reading:
https://www.thedrive.com/news/ongoing-uaw-strike-may-cripple-repairs-as-it-expands-to-gm-stellantis-parts-distribution
https://www.mlive.com/news/2023/09/we-just-cut-off-the-bloodstream-uaw-workers-walk-out-at-lansing-parts-warehouse.html
________
Edit to add:
https://mises.org/wire/striking-autoworkers-will-only-harm-their-own-livelihoods
This is a different take on it, basically saying they're shooting themselves in the foot, using Austrian economic theory. Not immediately relevant, but may be interesting.
I've gotta tell ya, I haven't gotten a 40% raise over the last few years, and I don't work 32 and get paid for 40 either. Kind of makes it hard for me to cheer for the UAW, but make no mistake there is greed involved on both sides of the issue......why do you think new vehicles are so damned expensive? It's only going to get worse. Like mentioned above, that may be in the nanny-state's interest to force those faggot-ass electric pieces of shit on us or encourage moving to the communist cities for easier control of the masses. Either way it goes the rest of us lose.
Inflation over the last 15 years has been about 42%. Has the UAW pay been frozen since 2008?
Honestly, a 40 hour work week is not unreasonable.
I think I broke a newer employee's heart when I told her that expecting a 10% pay raise in a year without changing roles was unrealistic. Then I pulled up Indeed and showed her that her salary was a fair bit better than the local and national average. I cannot fix past decisions that resulted in her being a single parent. I kept the last thought to myself because I am not a complete A hole :)
Andy
You might work on that Andy.
The “keeping last thought to myself” part, of course.
Inflation over the last 15 years has been about 42%. Has the UAW pay been frozen since 2008?
Honestly, a 40 hour work week is not unreasonable.
I think I broke a newer employee's heart when I told her that expecting a 10% pay raise in a year without changing roles was unrealistic. Then I pulled up Indeed and showed her that her salary was a fair bit better than the local and national average. I cannot fix past decisions that resulted in her being a single parent. I kept the last thought to myself because I am not a complete A hole :)
Andy
Our company pays well above average and the benefits are the best I have had anywhere. Yet I still get the same thing from my millennial female employees- giving me personal reasons why they should get a raise (and more often than not because of bad life decisions) instead of professional and job related reasons. I just give them a deadpan look when they start in on that crap.
I’ve been union for 10+ years and I’ve managed union employees for 10+ years. I’m no fan of the union, never was and never will be. If they would manage their own crappy employees instead of protecting the bottom feeders then I’d care about them more. All the unions do that I’ve witnessed (on both sides mind you) is them taking good and great employees and making them average or below average…
Do a little research on how much money the UAW brings in from their members, it’s unreal.
ThirdWatcher
09-23-23, 22:10
So much for bringing jobs back to the US. Ultimately this will provide more jobs in Mexico and Canada. (My cars were made in Canada and the last four trucks I’ve had were made in Mexico, all of good quality.)
Stellantis CEO Carlos Tavares got a 77% increase over the former CEO Mike Manley’s 2019 pay of 13.28 million euros...77%...let that sink in.
Ford CEO Jim Farley received nearly $21 million in total compensation in 2022. Farley’s compensation was up 21% from the $17.4 million earned by former CEO Jim Hackett in 2019. Included in Farley’s total compensation was $15 million in stock
Average UAW worker is $18-$32 an hour. Get back to me when they shave off some of that executive comp and bonuses to pay the people that actually make the cars. And the UAW made comp concessions during COVID, so yes the workers actually have skin in the game.
ThirdWatcher
09-24-23, 02:42
Stellantis CEO Carlos Tavares got a 77% increase over the former CEO Mike Manley’s 2019 pay of 13.28 million euros...77%...let that sink in.
Ford CEO Jim Farley received nearly $21 million in total compensation in 2022. Farley’s compensation was up 21% from the $17.4 million earned by former CEO Jim Hackett in 2019. Included in Farley’s total compensation was $15 million in stock
Average UAW worker is $18-$32 an hour. Get back to me when they shave off some of that executive comp and bonuses to pay the people that actually make the cars. And the UAW made comp concessions during COVID, so yes the workers actually have skin in the game.
I don’t think any CEO’s are worth that kind of money (that they seem to get, whether they do a good job or not, guaranteed by the taxpayers).
I remember watching the vid from back in the day of the Chrysler Corp employees drinking and smoking pot off-site on their lunch breaks. The garbage they turned out reflected their deliberate indifference.
Shave a million off the CEO, distribute across the board to hourly workers, and how much increase per hour do they receive?
The 32 hour work week is obvious: the work can’t get done with the same number of employees, so more employees have to be hired which means more union dues.
It isn’t always complicated.
Shave a million off the CEO, distribute across the board to hourly workers, and how much increase per hour do they receive?
The 32 hour work week is obvious: the work can’t get done with the same number of employees, so more employees have to be hired which means more union dues.
It isn’t always complicated.
I think they are still going to work 5 days but now the 5th day is paid overtime.
Shave a million off the CEO, distribute across the board to hourly workers, and how much increase per hour do they receive?
.
There are more executive pay positions than ceo. Shortly before the collapse an article indicated something like the top 8 US auto execs salaries equaled that of the top 28 Japanese auto execs at a time when Japanese based car sales were burying US based auto sales.
After working at a place that was unionized(I wasn't in the union or management) I am of the opinion that businesses where unions pop up truly deserve each other.
ChattanoogaPhil
09-24-23, 08:17
If these people really think they're worth 40% more in compensation for working less, then why are they still at GM and not earning more for doing less elsewhere? Maybe the people crossing the southern border can fill those terribly low paying auto manufacturing jobs, freeing the strikers to pursue their dreams and true earnings potential. God bless them all for enduring the hardships of being a GM employee.
Stellantis CEO Carlos Tavares got a 77% increase over the former CEO Mike Manley’s 2019 pay of 13.28 million euros...77%...let that sink in.
Ford CEO Jim Farley received nearly $21 million in total compensation in 2022. Farley’s compensation was up 21% from the $17.4 million earned by former CEO Jim Hackett in 2019. Included in Farley’s total compensation was $15 million in stock
Average UAW worker is $18-$32 an hour. Get back to me when they shave off some of that executive comp and bonuses to pay the people that actually make the cars. And the UAW made comp concessions during COVID, so yes the workers actually have skin in the game.
Thank you. I've been thinking, all the corporate exec's could take a pay cut, and pay the people doing the work, I didn't have the figure's for exactly how overpaid the CEO's are.
Imagine building cars, and seeing how ridiculous the prices have gotten in the last several years, knowing that the suits were reaping the benefits of your labor.
I worked as a Logistics Manager for a tier 1 supplier to the big 3 along with Nissan and BMW and I can tell you there is a whole lot of money wasted at the big 3. Case in point: one of the plants ordered multiple trucks a day- they tell you what they want loaded on their trucks and if it doesn’t fit you have to call in a “cube out”. When that is done they will schedule another truck to pick up what won’t fit. Well one of their plants had a cube out every day for 4-6 containers that would not fit so they scheduled an extra truck, at $1200+ which was the same price for a TL. Their orders were consistent so my Shipping Supervisor came up with a load plan to cut out the cube out and save the customer that $1200+ per day. I presented it to them and they said “thanks but no thanks”. That would have been $300k and more a year in easy savings that they weren’t interested in. I also did visits to their plants in OH and MI and remember seeing a guy sitting next to the production line reading a magazine. I asked what he was doing and was told he is a relief worker in case someone goes home sick. Well, what if no one goes home sick? Well, then he just reads magazines all day. Touring their plants there are as many people standing/sitting around as physically working.
Let them all eat cake and choke on their .gov inspired EV's.
Thank you. I've been thinking, all the corporate exec's could take a pay cut, and pay the people doing the work, I didn't have the figure's for exactly how overpaid the CEO's are.
Imagine building cars, and seeing how ridiculous the prices have gotten in the last several years, knowing that the suits were reaping the benefits of your labor.
Labor took a cut for COVID concessions. What is a pay cut to a executive making over $20 million a year? Nothing compared to the person making $55k a year.
And USA has one of the lowest union participations in the industrialized world. South Korea has vastly higher union labor numbers and no one ever calls them uncompetitive. That's management and corporate propaganda to have to excuse to outsource to slave labor wage nations so executives and shareholders get richer at the expense of American labor and working class.
hotrodder636
09-24-23, 10:41
I kind of hope the Big 3 actually fail this time. Between all the US Gov bailouts, EV garbage, waste (described above), the time has come.
As for the people who complain about executive pay vs worker pay...welcome to Capitalism. It is not just the Big 3 automakers.
I kind of hope the Big 3 actually fail this time. Between all the US Gov bailouts, EV garbage, waste (described above), the time has come.
As for the people who complain about executive pay vs worker pay...welcome to Capitalism. It is not just the Big 3 automakers.
That's not capitalism. That's corporatist oligarchy via bought political corruption. If it was capitalism there would have been no tax payer bailout for $80 billion via TARP.
I kind of hope the Big 3 actually fail this time. Between all the US Gov bailouts, EV garbage, waste (described above), the time has come.
As for the people who complain about executive pay vs worker pay...welcome to Capitalism. It is not just the Big 3 automakers.
If it was capitalism their assets would have been auctioned off 15 years ago.
Hadn't made it to page 3 yet. ;)
That's not capitalism. That's corporatist oligarchy via bought political corruption. If it was capitalism there would have been no tax payer bailout for $80 billion via TARP.
Your statement makes zero sense. TARP has nothing to do with executive pay being significantly more than the average line worker. This situation exists in every industry, bailed out or not and its called Capitalism. You make yourself sound like a leftist commie. Most of them earn every dollar of their pay and the average union bubba doesn't understand the hours most, not all, of them work.
Walk a day in their shoes and see if you could cut it for 10 years.
hotrodder636
09-24-23, 11:09
Look outside of the government bailouts and the Big3. The executives all make significantly more money than the hands-on workforce. Maybe not capitalism in true definition, but it is everywhere in big business.
hotrodder636
09-24-23, 11:10
Double Tap
hotrodder636
09-24-23, 11:10
Your statement makes zero sense. TARP has nothing to do with executive pay being significantly more than the average line worker. This situation exists in every industry, bailed out or not and its called Capitalism. You make yourself sound like a leftist commie. Most of them earn every dollar of their pay and the average union bubba doesn't understand the hours most, not all, of them work.
Walk a day in their shoes and see if you could cut it for 10 years.
Bingo
Your statement makes zero sense. TARP has nothing to do with executive pay being significantly more than the average line worker. This situation exists in every industry, bailed out or not and its called Capitalism. You make yourself sound like a leftist commie. Most of them earn every dollar of their pay and the average union bubba doesn't understand the hours most, not all, of them work.
Walk a day in their shoes and see if you could cut it for 10 years.
This isn't capitalism and opposing it isn't communism.
https://www.investopedia.com/terms/t/tarp-bonuses.asp#:~:text=TARP%20bonuses%20were%20bonuses%20paid,a%20depression%20and%20financial%20collapse.
SomeOtherGuy
09-24-23, 11:13
After working at a place that was unionized(I wasn't in the union or management) I am of the opinion that businesses where unions pop up truly deserve each other.
Very interesting perspective. I hadn't seen it this way before, but a lot of things I know just "clicked" after reading this.
A distant relative owns and operates a tier 3 supplier in Michigan. Their work is fairly steady. They either don't have a union or they don't have problems with it - I'm not sure which, and I would know if it caused them issues. But it's family-run and the owners aren't at all rich compared to the size of the enterprise.
I also know how the Big 3 treated their suppliers in the recent past from my own work experience, and it was terrible. Much worse than how the "foreign" carmakers treated the same suppliers. Getting a really big contract from one of the Big 3 was often fatal in the long run, even if it looked lucrative to start. So I can see jsbhike's perspective that companies that get stuck with something like the UAW may have done something to earn it.
What it comes down to for me is this: the Big 3 are no more productive than the "foreign" carmakers, and generally less so. If the UAW gets a big fat raise from them, that money has to come from somewhere, whether it's even more price increases in already over-priced cars, or government subsidies, or creative finance that will cause another financial crisis down the road. All of those are BAD for the US economy and society generally.
Here's my proposal: UAW workers get cost of living / inflation adjustments and nothing else. They work 40 hours/week for 40 hrs/week of pay and like it. Overpaid executives get their pay cut to fair levels. All the leftover cash goes into product quality, lower prices, shareholder dividends (not other financial games), or some other use that's beneficial to both the company and the overall society in the long run.
BTW that's basically the model that Toyota is on now and has been for decades.
ChattanoogaPhil
09-24-23, 12:01
Let them all eat cake and choke on their .gov inspired EV's.
I read that EVs will require about 40% less labor to produce. That may help many union auto workers to seek their true value elsewhere in the labor market.
Much of the trucking industry use to be union. The big three were Yellow, Roadway, and Consolidated Freightways.
All three collapsed and are no longer exist.
Now its basically UPS and and LTL carrier ABF. At the end of the new UPS contract they'll be at $50 per hour. Thats not sustainable.
Averageman
09-24-23, 12:06
I read that EVs will require about 40% less labor to produce. That may help many union auto workers to seek their true value elsewhere in the labor market.
It seems to me automakers have moved out of Detroit to "Right to Work" States.
The UAW holds little sway out there.
ChattanoogaPhil
09-24-23, 12:37
Much of the trucking industry use to be union. The big three were Yellow, Roadway, and Consolidated Freightways.
All three collapsed and are no longer exist.
Now its basically UPS and and LTL carrier ABF. At the end of the new UPS contract they'll be at $50 per hour. Thats not sustainable.
Deregulation during the Reagan years. I think a lot of folks would be surprised to know how much government was involved in trucking prior to deregulation.
Package carriers like UPS continue to be successful because of the economic barriers to enter the market. DHL has been trying in our domestic market for a very long time without great success. Much different than truckload or LTL which just about anyone with a truck could get into the game over the past 40 years.
SomeOtherGuy
09-24-23, 12:40
It seems to me automakers have moved out of Detroit to "Right to Work" States.
The UAW holds little sway out there.
Michigan actually was "right to work" for about a decade, although it made no real difference in the auto industry or UAW-controlled companies.
https://www.natlawreview.com/article/michigan-repeals-right-to-work
As someone who grew up with most of my schoolmates tied to the auto industry (but not my own family), it really is a cultural thing in the industrial cities of the state. And it has become a very sick situation. The historical Henry Ford days through WW2 had a paternalistic system, where there was some degree of reciprocal obligations between workers and companies. As far as I can tell, both workers and companies abandoned any concept of obligations to the other back in the 1970's, maybe even slightly earlier. Since the late 70's, each side of the labor equation has been trying to loot the other for all it can. But they are both locked in an inseparable relationship - like marriage in a Latin-Catholic country. So you have workers that lie, cheat and steal, all in the most literal sense from what I've been told by MANY people who worked in factories, and you have companies that treat those workers as hostile, for very good reason. A friend's father was a maintenance supervisor in a large plant and got literal death threats from many employees for just asking them to do their jobs. One time his GM-owned plant scooter was sawed in half and both halves put on his desk as a warning. Working nights in a noisy plant full of more machinery than people those threats were serious, and he managed to get a CCW back in the "may issue" days when it was all but impossible to get one.
It's a sick and abusive relationship and I don't see it improving any time soon. The UAW workers realistically couldn't make 80% as much in any other work setting, so they don't want to quit and work elsewhere, even if the other conditions were better. Meanwhile the Big 3 would have a hard time hiring the sheer number of people they need anywhere else, and would have to change their attitude and work approach to hire decent people if they aren't going to dealing with them on UAW terms.
ChattanoogaPhil
09-24-23, 12:57
Michigan actually was "right to work" for about a decade, although it made no real difference in the auto industry or UAW-controlled companies.
https://www.natlawreview.com/article/michigan-repeals-right-to-work
As someone who grew up with most of my schoolmates tied to the auto industry (but not my own family), it really is a cultural thing in the industrial cities of the state. And it has become a very sick situation. The historical Henry Ford days through WW2 had a paternalistic system, where there was some degree of reciprocal obligations between workers and companies. As far as I can tell, both workers and companies abandoned any concept of obligations to the other back in the 1970's, maybe even slightly earlier. Since the late 70's, each side of the labor equation has been trying to loot the other for all it can. But they are both locked in an inseparable relationship - like marriage in a Latin-Catholic country. So you have workers that lie, cheat and steal, all in the most literal sense from what I've been told by MANY people who worked in factories, and you have companies that treat those workers as hostile, for very good reason. A friend's father was a maintenance supervisor in a large plant and got literal death threats from many employees for just asking them to do their jobs. One time his GM-owned plant scooter was sawed in half and both halves put on his desk as a warning. Working nights in a noisy plant full of more machinery than people those threats were serious, and he managed to get a CCW back in the "may issue" days when it was all but impossible to get one.
It's a sick and abusive relationship and I don't see it improving any time soon. The UAW workers realistically couldn't make 80% as much in any other work setting, so they don't want to quit and work elsewhere, even if the other conditions were better. Meanwhile the Big 3 would have a hard time hiring the sheer number of people they need anywhere else, and would have to change their attitude and work approach to hire decent people if they aren't going to dealing with them on UAW terms.
Auto production workers generally require little education. It's mostly OJT. There's hundreds of thousand of uneducated warm bodies crossing our southern border every month who would love those jobs. They're building our homes... they can assemble cars too. Biden administration just announced it's granting temporary legal status to hundreds of thousands of Venezuelans who are already in the country, making them eligible to work. There ya go.
When I was building homes (small time builder) I hired lots of subcontractors that used crews who were obviously not here legally. Damn good workers.
Deregulation during the Reagan years. I think a lot of folks would be surprised to know how much government was involved in trucking prior to deregulation.
Package carriers like UPS continue to be successful because of the economic barriers to enter the market. DHL has been trying in our domestic market for a very long time without great success. Much different than truckload or LTL which just about anyone with a truck could get into the game over the past 40 years.
Deregulation happened 40 years ago. The union is what killed the big three. Yellow Freight just collapsed last month. And since the new UPS contract they've already said they're going to have to increase shipping rates to offset the wages and benefits. This has already driven some of their business to USPS and FedEx ground.
ChattanoogaPhil
09-24-23, 13:33
Deregulation happened 40 years ago. The union is what killed the big three. Yellow Freight just collapsed last month. And since the new UPS contract they've already said they're going to have to increase shipping rates to offset the wages and benefits. This has already driven some of their business to USPS and FedEx ground.
The diversion of about a million packages a day to FedEx and USPS was due to fears of a potential strike at UPS, not due to fear of increased rates. UPS and FedEx generally raise rates in tandem every year. Last year both FedEx and UPS announced a 6.9% increase. This year they both announced a 5.9% increase effective in December. Of course there are other factors like fuel surcharge that affect GRI. The reason UPS and FedEx can do this is because of the huge economic barrier to enter the package business as I mentioned before. There just isn't a zillion competitors running amok in the package business like there have been in the LTL and truckload market since deregulation.
It seems to me automakers have moved out of Detroit to "Right to Work" States.
The UAW holds little sway out there.Isn't Michigan a right to work state?
I quit watching the news so if it changed I apologize in advance.
SomeOtherGuy
09-24-23, 13:44
Isn't Michigan a right to work state?
I quit watching the news so if it changed I apologize in advance.
It was from 2012 - March 2024, but it had no real impact on the Big 3 or their tier 1 suppliers.
I think it was beneficial to some extent, but thanks to the 2018 pothead ballot proposal and the subsequent left swing in the state, it's going away. Still technically in effect today, it's a dead letter for practical purposes.
It was from 2012 - March 2024, but it had no real impact on the Big 3 or their tier 1 suppliers.
I think it was beneficial to some extent, but thanks to the 2018 pothead ballot proposal and the subsequent left swing in the state, it's going away. Still technically in effect today, it's a dead letter for practical purposes.Ok
Thank you.
ThirdWatcher
09-24-23, 20:32
Buy Toyota.
Not to hijack this thread but I would love to buy a Toyota 1-Ton diesel pickup. Until then I’ll continue to drive my Made-in-Mexico Ram 3500 CTD.
This isn't capitalism and opposing it isn't communism.
https://www.investopedia.com/terms/t/tarp-bonuses.asp#:~:text=TARP%20bonuses%20were%20bonuses%20paid,a%20depression%20and%20financial%20collapse.
Absolutely true.
Coal Dragger
09-24-23, 21:50
Buy Toyota.
Nah. As much as I love Toyota their model post COVID is to limit supply as much as possible and allow their dealers to screw over customers as hard as possible with dealer markups.
Coal Dragger
09-24-23, 21:54
Auto production workers generally require little education. It's mostly OJT. There's hundreds of thousand of uneducated warm bodies crossing our southern border every month who would love those jobs. They're building our homes... they can assemble cars too. Biden administration just announced it's granting temporary legal status to hundreds of thousands of Venezuelans who are already in the country, making them eligible to work. There ya go.
When I was building homes (small time builder) I hired lots of subcontractors that used crews who were obviously not here legally. Damn good workers.
So you’re part of the problem with illegal immigration.
Thanks for PID’ing yourself as a dirtbag.
ChattanoogaPhil
09-25-23, 07:03
It seems to me automakers have moved out of Detroit to "Right to Work" States.
The UAW holds little sway out there.
I know a guy doing hiring at the new Hyundai plant in Savannah. He tells me there’s lots of quality applicants in lower wage retail and other jobs seeking to improve their lives. Much different attitude than UAW on strike.
Adrenaline_6
09-25-23, 07:49
Nah. As much as I love Toyota their model post COVID is to limit supply as much as possible and allow their dealers to screw over customers as hard as possible with dealer markups.
That is due to their production style. Their JIT (Just in Time) production style limits surplus inventory. When COVID hit and the havoc it caused to due lack of components, the JIT model of production got messed up, since they try not to inventory anything.
That is due to their production style. Their JIT (Just in Time) production style limits surplus inventory. When COVID hit and the havoc it caused to due lack of components, the JIT model of production got messed up, since they try not to inventory anything.There are multiple issues with Toyota right now:
1) their US sales are less profitable than the rest of the world so they have been focusing their production into other regions.
Their capacity is pretty much back to normal, it's just that less are coming to the US.
2) part of the reason they are less profitable in the US is that they sell through a limited number of distributors rather than direct to the dealer.
Those distributors jumped right on the add-on price gouging policies during COVID and add significant expense to the price of the vehicle of which none goes to Toyota.
3) due to a combination of #1 and #2, Toyo dealers have only been ordering the highest end vehicles to maximize profit.
This has resulted in toyo dealers pricing their new vehicles 20% above MSRP or more if you factor in the distributor add-ons.
They are convinced it's going to last and it's the new normal, but their market share is dropping in the US and competitors are taking advantage of the Toyota and Honda anti-consumer mindset.
In particular Mazda and Subaru have been picking up a lot of the market share that would have gone to Honda and Toyota.
If you've just got to have a 4Runner, you were going to overpay significantly for what that vehicle is worth.
But for things like Camry's and RAV4s, you can get a nicer vehicle from Mazda and Subaru for the same money or less and have a much better buying experience.
Coal Dragger
09-25-23, 09:09
Toyota dealers and the distributors are ruining the reputation of Toyota in the United States. I am surprised they along with other manufacturers aren’t lobbying hard to do away with laws state by state that mandate dealerships. Then just end franchise agreements for things like dealer markups and other bullshit, then go to direct sales with manufacturer owned and operated retail and service centers.
The Toyota dealer local to me hasn’t done any dealer markups at all the entire plandemic or afterwards, which makes me likely to do business with them again. The downside is word has gotten out that their business model is to not screw people, so the waiting list for any new vehicles from them is months upon months long. They have basically no new vehicles on the lot to even test drive most of the time.
Adrenaline_6
09-25-23, 09:19
I am in total agreeance with you guys on dealerships being the problem. Toyota themselves, along with other manufacturers are getting screwed by greedy dealerships. Then they piss and moan when the manufacturer wants to do away with them. It's just a matter of time. You can only screw the customer over for so long and when the economy is booming making it less of an impact. Now that we are in a recession and people are actually acknowledging that fact and starting to hurt, that crap will not fly.
ChattanoogaPhil
09-25-23, 09:45
Its been a buyers market in new car sales since forever. Discounts of many thousands of dollars from sticker price were commonplace. Buyers use tools on the Net the to know dealer invoice and what other buyers are paying...on and on... to further beat-up the dealer on price. Now buyers are crying the blues during a sellers market. Yawn. Sometimes the game changes.
Adrenaline_6
09-25-23, 12:36
Its been a buyers market in new car sales since forever. Discounts of many thousands of dollars from sticker price were commonplace. Buyers use tools on the Net the to know dealer invoice and what other buyers are paying...on and on... to further beat-up the dealer on price. Now buyers are crying the blues during a sellers market. Yawn. Sometimes the game changes.
Manufacturer's MSRP already have a profit for the dealership in their. Discounts off an inflated dealer marked up sticker price that is brought down to MSRP isn't really a buyers market. That is a normal market. F*ck dealership's and their stupid $750 Nitrogen filled tire markup stupidity. If they fail, they made that bed.
https://markups.org/
ChattanoogaPhil
09-25-23, 13:39
Manufacturer's MSRP already have a profit for the dealership in their. Discounts off an inflated dealer marked up sticker price that is brought down to MSRP isn't really a buyers market. That is a normal market. F*ck dealership's and their stupid $750 Nitrogen filled tire markup stupidity. If they fail, they made that bed.
https://markups.org/
For starters, anyone paying MSRP for a vehicle the past decades was either purchasing a very special vehicle in high demand or wasn't interested in negotiating price. Hardly a "normal market" price by anyone investing even the slightest effort to reduce the price of a vehicle purchase. It wasn't unusual for the GM dealer to advertise $10,000 discounts on their more expensive line of trucks. In 2000, my Tundra had a MSRP of $32k. Paid $28k. Wife's 2006 Sienna MSRP was $27K. Paid $22K.
Today's market is much different but no dealer is forcing anyone to buy a vehicle. If you don't want to pay the seller's price, don't. That said, if someone thinks dealers in their area are so dumb then maybe they should open a dealership and show those in the business how it's done.
I am reminded of the ranting and raving over rimfire ammo prices when inventory was scarce. Somehow all those pledges to not do business with sellers like CTD didn't result in them going out of business. Oh... and when Midway cancelled everyone's rimfire backorders.... gosh that was entertaining to see heads explode. Same type tantrums... just a different day and product.
Although Toyota shipments (and thus sales) are up over last year, their overall market share as a percentage is declining in the US because they are tangibly focusing shipments on other geographies.
They have a conscious strategy to move Toyota & Lexus up in the vehicle tiers as well.
One way you do that is by limiting deliveries which then forces the dealers to only order high-end ones.
Honda has a similar strategy but it's not as tangible and they don't have the goofy distributor dynamic. One Toyota Tacoma sticker I looked at had over $1,000 of fluff distributor add-ons that even the dealer can't control. Then of course the dealer's had their own stupid ones on.
The car industry guys think this is really opening up opportunity for some of the smaller manufacturers, and certainly Mazda and Subaru have benefited in the recent market.
They are moving a lot of cars. Right now I could go buy a Forester at MSRP and the only junk fee being a $399 dealer processing fee. Which even pre-COVID was $199 and just something you had to negotiate past.
Less popular models you can get below MSRP.
Gladiators and Jeeps in general had the worst pricing/production excesses and are now paying that price. People have reported buying new gladiators 10-20K below MSRP. There are dealers with large numbers of 2022 model gladiators and Grand Cherokees left.
I was helping my brother try to buy a Honda the CRV's had over $7,000 in bogus add-ons plus an 899 dealer processing fee. And if you didn't finance through them via Honda the price was higher. Just crazy.
I'll wait. The era of Toyota being the ultra reliable common sense vehicle is passed. 2007 through 2011 catastrophic engine failures in Camrys, XBs, etc due to oil retention design issues. Their CVTs have not done well. Even the four liter in the 07 FJ cruiser I had was only okay and the drive line had known issues.
I still think they are better than average. But having spent a week/ several thousand miles in a brand new 4wd 4Runner recently in Alaska, I was not in love with it. Not bad, just not great like they used to be.
Coal Dragger
09-25-23, 17:29
The 4Runner is seriously in need of a redesign. An ancient 4.0L V6 paired with the only 5 speed automatic on sale in a new vehicle today don’t make for a compelling combo.
The next 4Runner seems to be delayed and will move down market since the 2024 Land Cruiser 250 will be sold in North America starting in the mid $50K’s.
I’m not sure I care for the new Land Cruiser since they have gone turbo 4 cylinder hybrid only (I’d like the TTV6 as an option) and no more KDSS. Otherwise you get full time 4X4 (Torsen center) high range, high range locked, and low range, and a locking rear diff in all of the trims levels. They will offer a power disconnecting front sway bar at least, so you can still get articulation out of the front end. The 4 banger turbo hybrid is making 326HP and 465ft-lbs, and the torque shows up to the party way down low in the rev range at least, backed up by an 8 speed auto. Rumor is mid 20’s MPG combined.
Adrenaline_6
09-25-23, 17:50
I'm pretty sure the new 4runner will be released shortly. It should fill the small price gap below the Landcruiser. It will probably be like the tacoma. 4 cylinder turbo . Maybe the TRD PRO gets the hybrid option. I wonder if they also give the new 4runner the tried and true 112.2" Landcruiser wheelbase like they just gave the new GX550.
Coal Dragger
09-25-23, 18:13
Probably not.
GX550 and Land Cruiser 250 are mechanical twins, aside from engine and transmission, and of course the GX550 getting E-KDSS on the Overtrail trim. Both of those are the 112.2” wheelbase. Same as the Land Cruiser 300 and Lexus LX600. The TNGA-F platform/frame assembly is evidently shared too or so close as to make no difference. I foresee Lexus having a tough time moving LX600’s when the GX will be cheaper, almost as roomy (a bit narrower inside), and better looking.
I think the 4Runner will be smaller and moving down marker. If Toyota is smart they’ll make it more of a Bronco/Wrangler competitor so it’s not a smaller less featured mini-Land Cruiser.
Adrenaline_6
09-26-23, 11:28
Probably not.
GX550 and Land Cruiser 250 are mechanical twins, aside from engine and transmission, and of course the GX550 getting E-KDSS on the Overtrail trim. Both of those are the 112.2” wheelbase. Same as the Land Cruiser 300 and Lexus LX600. The TNGA-F platform/frame assembly is evidently shared too or so close as to make no difference. I foresee Lexus having a tough time moving LX600’s when the GX will be cheaper, almost as roomy (a bit narrower inside), and better looking.
I think the 4Runner will be smaller and moving down marker. If Toyota is smart they’ll make it more of a Bronco/Wrangler competitor so it’s not a smaller less featured mini-Land Cruiser.
The older GX and LC Prado models all shared the same wheelbase as the 4Runner though (109.8"). Only this year did they bring the the new GX550 and LC Prado to the 112.2" wheelbase.
Coal Dragger
09-26-23, 11:33
That is why I don’t think the upcoming 4Runner will share the wheelbase, or engine options. Creates too much overlap.
Adrenaline_6
09-26-23, 12:08
That is why I don’t think the upcoming 4Runner will share the wheelbase, or engine options. Creates too much overlap.
Maybe. On the flip side, from a production standpoint, the more you share the less different specific parts are required to be made. I seriously doubt they will not share the engine options of the Tacoma (Turbo I4) and LC Prado (Turbo I4 hybrid). The hybrid being just the TRD Pro like the new Taco. Maybe they release a Limited model with the Twin turbo V6 like they did in the previous older Limited 4runner's with the GX V8.
FromMyColdDeadHand
09-26-23, 14:20
We ended up having to buy a car on short notice. We picked up a 4Runner TRD Off-road. KDSS included. Paid near MSRP, with a few add ons. I can’t get my wife not to buy extended warranties, but damn, it was cheaper than I thought- probably because the 4RUnner at this point is near bullet proof.
I got to drive it some before it went off to college. Not bad, HORRIBLE turning radius, and will get outrun by about any other car on the road. Planning on it being a 10 year car.
The LC and 4Runner look interesting, but I’m still in line for an Ineos Grenadier. The LC is probably my back-up.
Coal Dragger
09-26-23, 18:22
Maybe. On the flip side, from a production standpoint, the more you share the less different specific parts are required to be made. I seriously doubt they will not share the engine options of the Tacoma (Turbo I4) and LC Prado (Turbo I4 hybrid). The hybrid being just the TRD Pro like the new Taco. Maybe they release a Limited model with the Twin turbo V6 like they did in the previous older Limited 4runner's with the GX V8.
I wish that were the case but I think I will be proven correct. Follow with me on this logic.
1.) TNGA-F platform is very modular, the actual wheelbase doesn’t dictate very much in production since the assembly line jig mounting points are evidently not wheelbase sensitive. The LC300/LX600, Sequoia, Tundra, LC250/GX550 are all being produced on the same architecture, even though the Sequoia and Tundra have much longer wheelbases than the two LC variants. The other components like suspension mounting points, motor mounts etc appear to be extremely similar if not identical though. The new Tacoma is also being based on this architecture but no one is certain yet if things like frame rails are the same width.
2.) Toyota/Lexus seem very intent on creating differentiation in their product lines and brands. The new GX550 has been designed to not step on LX600 features directly, it’s much less luxurious, has a detuned TTV6, and is more utilitarian in styling and features. There’s a dedicated off road model for the GX where’re the LX is all about being a luxobarge.
We’ve also seen the separation of Toyota products from Lexus with the current 4Runner and GX460. The 4Runner is the poor cousin of the GX even though they’re both closely related to if not outright a Land Cruiser Prado. The Toyota is stuck with a 4.0L V6 and ancient 5 speed auto, only has full time 4X4 on the limited where the Lexus gets the 4.6L V8 and a 6 speed plus full time 4X4 standard. Now we see the same thing again with the Land Cruiser and GX550. The Lexus gets the more powerful and prestigious engine and transmission, while the Toyota will get a I4 Turbo Hybrid with “only” an 8 speed. Now that the North American Land Cruiser is based directly on the Prado (LC250) expect the mechanical packaging of those two to be set in stone for quite awhile if not the entire model run so that Toyota Land Cruiser sales don’t threaten GX550 sales as much.
The Toyota 4Runner hasn’t had a choice of engines since the 4th Gen, and it won’t get one for the 6th Gen either. Dollars to donuts the 6th Gen is going to be Tacoma based from interior to exterior and will get only the 2.4L I4 Turbo for initially, if there’s a hybrid I wouldn’t be surprised to see it only be the naturally aspirated 2.5L I4 with the identical 48HP electric motor hybrid and 1.87KwH battery from the Tundra/Sequoia/Tacoma/Land Cruiser 250. I hope I’m wrong about that, but Toyota seems intent on making sure there’s very little product overlap. I think they want bucks up 4Runner buyers to step on up to the newly affordable Land Cruiser vs a Limited 4Runner or TRD Pro.
Unless of course they knock it out of the park and make the 4Runner much more off road focused, if it’s rocking a removable roof and doors and is really going after the Bronco/Wrangler market I can see it getting the I4 Turbo Hybrid as an option. There’s no overlap in that case, the Land Cruiser is the Jack of all Trades 4X4 with some amenities (what I would buy), and the 4Runner can be the off-road toy/recreation oriented rig. Hopefully they go that route, because a bunch of hard top 4X4 SUV wagons on a full truck frame all, all more or less the same size, competing in the same showroom makes no damn sense.
I'll just stick with GM products for the foreseeable future.
Yes the UAW sucks but for Christ's sake, the headquarters is 10 minutes from my house and the CEO speaks English.
I refuse be a sell out buying foreign shit voluntarily.
My 1/2 ton came out if the flint Michigan plant, as did the two Tahoe's my wife and daughter drive, my 3/4 ton company truck came out of a plant in Indiana.
To recap american plants, american headquarters, so I at least make an effort to support american companies and workers (yet again).
jdavis6576
09-26-23, 20:17
I bought a new Toyota in February, paid under MSRP and SETF beat two local credit unions on short term financing. Granted, I had to shop a few dealerships but I as able to buy from one 30 minutes away that had the model, packages and color I wanted in stock. Deals can be had for those willing to do a little work, even on a new Toyota.
Adrenaline_6
09-27-23, 09:10
I'll just stick with GM products for the foreseeable future.
Yes the UAW sucks but for Christ's sake, the headquarters is 10 minutes from my house and the CEO speaks English.
I refuse be a sell out buying foreign shit voluntarily.
My 1/2 ton came out if the flint Michigan plant, as did the two Tahoe's my wife and daughter drive, my 3/4 ton company truck came out of a plant in Indiana.
To recap american plants, american headquarters, so I at least make an effort to support american companies and workers (yet again).
They aren't American companies anymore. They are global companies. Like all of them are. They don't care about you or the American people. Just profits. Sure, they have plants here, but so does Toyota and the others. If it gives you the warm fuzzy that the person(s) that doesn't really give a sh*t about you speaks english, Ok, you do you, but logical it is not.
Adrenaline_6
09-27-23, 09:41
I wish that were the case but I think I will be proven correct. Follow with me on this logic.
1.) TNGA-F platform is very modular, the actual wheelbase doesn’t dictate very much in production since the assembly line jig mounting points are evidently not wheelbase sensitive. The LC300/LX600, Sequoia, Tundra, LC250/GX550 are all being produced on the same architecture, even though the Sequoia and Tundra have much longer wheelbases than the two LC variants. The other components like suspension mounting points, motor mounts etc appear to be extremely similar if not identical though. The new Tacoma is also being based on this architecture but no one is certain yet if things like frame rails are the same width.
2.) Toyota/Lexus seem very intent on creating differentiation in their product lines and brands. The new GX550 has been designed to not step on LX600 features directly, it’s much less luxurious, has a detuned TTV6, and is more utilitarian in styling and features. There’s a dedicated off road model for the GX where’re the LX is all about being a luxobarge.
We’ve also seen the separation of Toyota products from Lexus with the current 4Runner and GX460. The 4Runner is the poor cousin of the GX even though they’re both closely related to if not outright a Land Cruiser Prado. The Toyota is stuck with a 4.0L V6 and ancient 5 speed auto, only has full time 4X4 on the limited where the Lexus gets the 4.6L V8 and a 6 speed plus full time 4X4 standard. Now we see the same thing again with the Land Cruiser and GX550. The Lexus gets the more powerful and prestigious engine and transmission, while the Toyota will get a I4 Turbo Hybrid with “only” an 8 speed. Now that the North American Land Cruiser is based directly on the Prado (LC250) expect the mechanical packaging of those two to be set in stone for quite awhile if not the entire model run so that Toyota Land Cruiser sales don’t threaten GX550 sales as much.
The Toyota 4Runner hasn’t had a choice of engines since the 4th Gen, and it won’t get one for the 6th Gen either. Dollars to donuts the 6th Gen is going to be Tacoma based from interior to exterior and will get only the 2.4L I4 Turbo for initially, if there’s a hybrid I wouldn’t be surprised to see it only be the naturally aspirated 2.5L I4 with the identical 48HP electric motor hybrid and 1.87KwH battery from the Tundra/Sequoia/Tacoma/Land Cruiser 250. I hope I’m wrong about that, but Toyota seems intent on making sure there’s very little product overlap. I think they want bucks up 4Runner buyers to step on up to the newly affordable Land Cruiser vs a Limited 4Runner or TRD Pro.
Unless of course they knock it out of the park and make the 4Runner much more off road focused, if it’s rocking a removable roof and doors and is really going after the Bronco/Wrangler market I can see it getting the I4 Turbo Hybrid as an option. There’s no overlap in that case, the Land Cruiser is the Jack of all Trades 4X4 with some amenities (what I would buy), and the 4Runner can be the off-road toy/recreation oriented rig. Hopefully they go that route, because a bunch of hard top 4X4 SUV wagons on a full truck frame all, all more or less the same size, competing in the same showroom makes no damn sense.
Another possibility could be that Toyota is positioning the LC Prado to do away with the 4Runner. Yes, the 4Runner is a huge hit here in the US, but not really anywhere else. It isn't even sold in Europe, just South America and Canada. Canadian sales of the 4Runner are miserable. Very similar in number to the LC in the US, which is probably why Toyota stopped selling them here.
On the flip side, like you mentioned, if they are wanting to position the 4Runner to go after the Jeep, Bronco, Overlanding, 4wheeling market, I would bet they most definitely will offer the TTV6 as an option or will fail at that goal. Removeable doors and roof would be cool, but doesn't fit into Toyota's conservative mindset.
I'll just stick with GM products for the foreseeable future.
Yes the UAW sucks but for Christ's sake, the headquarters is 10 minutes from my house and the CEO speaks English.
I refuse be a sell out buying foreign shit voluntarily.
My 1/2 ton came out if the flint Michigan plant, as did the two Tahoe's my wife and daughter drive, my 3/4 ton company truck came out of a plant in Indiana.
To recap american plants, american headquarters, so I at least make an effort to support american companies and workers (yet again).
I had a chevy Silverado ltz, manufactured in Mexico.
I had a 2015 Duramax 2500 hd crew cab, made in Indiana.
I got a Ram dually cummins in 2018, made in Mexico.
I quit caring.
I had a chevy Silverado ltz, manufactured in Mexico.
I had a 2015 Duramax 2500 hd crew cab, made in Indiana.
I got a Ram dually cummins in 2018, made in Mexico.
I quit caring.If you want one from and American plant, just tell the sales people you will only accept a vehicle where the first number of the VIN is 1.
Mexico is 3 Canada is 2.
I have no idea about the other continents as I won't buy those.
Coal Dragger
09-27-23, 12:48
Another possibility could be that Toyota is positioning the LC Prado to do away with the 4Runner. Yes, the 4Runner is a huge hit here in the US, but not really anywhere else. It isn't even sold in Europe, just South America and Canada. Canadian sales of the 4Runner are miserable. Very similar in number to the LC in the US, which is probably why Toyota stopped selling them here.
On the flip side, like you mentioned, if they are wanting to position the 4Runner to go after the Jeep, Bronco, Overlanding, 4wheeling market, I would bet they most definitely will offer the TTV6 as an option or will fail at that goal. Removeable doors and roof would be cool, but doesn't fit into Toyota's conservative mindset.
That’s why my guess is the 4Runner will be a down market half hearted attempt because it’s not a global platform for Toyota. Kind of like the new Tundra and Sequoia, my guess is it will be very blah. There’s a reason the redesign is taking so long, and keeps getting pushed back.
FromMyColdDeadHand
09-27-23, 13:48
Another possibility could be that Toyota is positioning the LC Prado to do away with the 4Runner. Yes, the 4Runner is a huge hit here in the US, but not really anywhere else. It isn't even sold in Europe, just South America and Canada. Canadian sales of the 4Runner are miserable. Very similar in number to the LC in the US, which is probably why Toyota stopped selling them here.
On the flip side, like you mentioned, if they are wanting to position the 4Runner to go after the Jeep, Bronco, Overlanding, 4wheeling market, I would bet they most definitely will offer the TTV6 as an option or will fail at that goal. Removeable doors and roof would be cool, but doesn't fit into Toyota's conservative mindset.
That’s why my guess is the 4Runner will be a down market half hearted attempt because it’s not a global platform for Toyota. Kind of like the new Tundra and Sequoia, my guess is it will be very blah. There’s a reason the redesign is taking so long, and keeps getting pushed back.
My guess is that it becomes a 4 door FJ cruiser. The issue is that Toyota has all kinds of SUVs now. The good news is that they have enough that they could make the 4Runner a real 4x4 and have enough coverage for other market niches. Could be interesting.
What gets me is that the ‘old-school’ option is a turbo-engine, and you’ll soon have a problem getting one with out some kind of EV. Now, I’m not against EVs in general. A two door stripper Jeep with a EV motor might be interesting. I’m not looking to take long drives in that.
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