G19 Extraction Problem

[thetallengineer]

I have a 3rd Gen Glock 19 that I picked up new last spring that occasionally has some extraction problems, I've probably fired around 1200 rounds. The problem seems to be most common when shooting the Monarch (green box) ammo. Although yesterday I tried Blazer Brass and it had the same problem once out of 100 rds. With the Monarch it would about 15 times per 100 rds. I didn't have my camera with me when the problems happened at the range but I've recreated it at home to give you all a better idea of how the spent brass is getting stuck.

At first I thought it might just be an ammo problem with the Monarch but with it doing it yesterday I'm having second thoughts. The magazines are fairly new and I've tried different ones.

Any suggestions on what I should try to isolate/remedy the problem?

http://files.thetallengineer.com/post/g19_low.jpg


Hi-Resolution Version of Pic (http://files.thetallengineer.com/post/g19.jpg)

[John_Wayne777]

So the brass is getting pinched between the breechface and the very top of the chamber?

[thetallengineer]

That is correct.

[rubberneck]

Have you checked the tip of the ejector to see if a piece has broken off? And have you at any point changed the recoil spring? Have you also pulled the extractor and taken a look to see if it isn't damaged in some way?

[Heavy Metal]

Looks like the dreaded Phase Three malfunction.

[Littlelebowski]

Were it my gun, I'd just buy a new extractor and while I was at it, I'd add an appropriately weighted flat ISMI spring on a metal guide rod (not that the guide rod would help, I just like them).

[MisterWilson]

When's the last time you detail stripped the slide?

[In2Deep]

change out the ejector and extractor.

it'll be a cheap fix.

[M4arc]

Can you take a picture of the ejector and extractor and post it?

What is the # that is stamped on your magazine followers?

What is the serial number prefix?

[Semi_auto]

This was mentioned before but again inspect the ejector for damage. If the ejector looks good check the extractor components. Remove the extractor depressor plunger, extractor depressor plunger spring, spring loaded bearing, and finally the extractor. Clean and inspect for damage. Replacing all of these parts (including the springs) is relatively cheap and is a good way to eliminate the extractor components as a problem. Do not lube any of these components.

[thetallengineer]

I compared the extractor on my G17 to the G19 and didn't see any obvious differences. Something else that might be worth mentioning is the gun did this once or twice when I first bought it and took it to the range and was shooting winchester white box. I just marked it up to it being new and didn't think much about it.

I've never detailed stripped the slide. I usually do the basic strip to clean the slide, get ride of the power residue, look for any signs of a problem, and then relube.

I cleaned the breech area and around the extractor last night and there wasn't much carbon build up. I'll take some more pictures today of that area. The serial number is "MDD###"


Are there any good free resources available (PDF or Video) for detail stripping Glock slides?

[rubberneck]

Glock's customer service is really good. You have been given some good advice for handling the issue on your own as it can be done fairly easily. On the other hand the issue could be caused by an issue not so easily diagnosed. If everything appears to be fine with the extractor and ejector than I would send it back to Glock or find a Glock certified armorer in your area.

[thetallengineer]

Glock's customer service is really good. You have been given some good advice for handling the issue on your own as it can be done fairly easily. On the other hand the issue could be caused by an issue not so easily diagnosed. If everything appears to be fine with the extractor and ejector than I would send it back to Glock or find a Glock certified armorer in your area.

I agree. If I can fix it on my own and learn a thing or two while in the process that is always the preferred route for me. However if the problem persist I'll contact Glock, I've never dealt with them but have heard good feedback about their customer service.

[M4arc]

Are you running 15 or 10 round magazines?

Honestly, at this point and with that number of failures I would just call Glock up in the morning and explain what is going on. They will probably want you to send it back. If it's a gun you depend on send it back and let them fix it. If you're looking to tinker then we can help you try and solve this.

I love tinkering but something isn't right here so I'd send it back.

Glock, USA: 770.432.1202

[ToddG]

It could be any number of things: a problem with the extractor assembly; a problem with the ejector; a problem with the breechface; etc. But if it's happened with WWB, Monarch, and Blazer Brass obviously there is an issue with the gun itself. Either have a certified armorer take a look at it or send it back to Glock.

[thetallengineer]

Are you running 15 or 10 round magazines?

Honestly, at this point and with that number of failures I would just call Glock up in the morning and explain what is going on. They will probably want you to send it back. If it's a gun you depend on send it back and let them fix it. If you're looking to tinker then we can help you try and solve this.

I love tinkering but something isn't right here so I'd send it back.

Glock, USA: 770.432.1202

The G19 is my primary CCW but I've been using my 642 until I can get the problem sorted out. I think I'll call Glock tomorrow and see what they suggest. I'll stick post some pics in a few.

I am using 15 rd magazines.

[M4arc]

The G19 is my primary CCW but I've been using my 642 until I can get the problem sorted out. I think I'll call Glock tomorrow and see what they suggest. I'll stick post some pics in a few.

I am using 15 rd magazines.

See if you can get a picture of the ejector and what is the # stamped on your mag followers?

Like I said, if you depend on this gun then send it back. They will fix it.

[thetallengineer]

http://files.thetallengineer.com/post/g1.jpg

http://files.thetallengineer.com/post/g2.jpg

http://files.thetallengineer.com/post/g3.jpg

http://files.thetallengineer.com/post/g4.jpg

http://files.thetallengineer.com/post/g5.jpg

http://files.thetallengineer.com/post/g9.jpg

http://files.thetallengineer.com/post/g6.jpg

http://files.thetallengineer.com/post/g7.jpg

http://files.thetallengineer.com/post/g8.jpg

[MisterWilson]

So um...Ever consider cleaning it?


Seriously, that's due for a detail cleaning. Google some instructions on how to detail strip the slide. It's stupidly easy.

I'd bet that would go a ways towards making your baby work as she should.

[M4arc]

That's the right ejector but what do you use to clean that thing with? Grease?

Here's what I would do: Follow the instructions and guides on this page: http://glockfaq.com/maintenance.htm

Use straight up CLP for cleaning and lubbing and give it another couple hundred rounds to see if it continues to fail. If it does call Glock and ship that thing back.

[thetallengineer]

My cleaning routine with Glocks has been fairly basic. I wipe down everything with a old t-shirt, use q-tips for the harder to get spots. Hit the breech face with a brass brush occasionally and then reapply grease to the metal parts.

I'll check out the cleaning/maintenance guide and go try again next weekend. I use the same routine for my G17 and think the high-resolution macro pics make it look worse than it actually is.

Thanks for all the great advice and I will report back next weekend.

[lindertw]

The extractor doesn't look right at all - did you buy it used? Bad pics of my G19:

http://tinyurl.com/985zgo

http://tinyurl.com/8gs5ad

replace the extractor and clean that mofo and you should be gtg :p

[Semi_auto]

Funny thing about Glocks is they can be reliable with very little cleaning. Too much lube or grease and they will not function reliably.

Thouroughly clean and lube.

Link for slide disassembly: www.glockmeister.com/slidedis.shtml

Link for Glock lubrication: www.glockmeister.com/glubric.shtml

I also agree that the extractor does not look right. The plunger seems to be peeling. I would take the G19 to an amorer to have them look it over and replace any parts. It will not cost much.

[Cruncher Block]

I'd humbly suggest a good detail cleaning as well. Not only might it fix the problem but I'm a little concerned that crud may be building up in the firing pin channel.

If the firing pin gets stuck forward, the pistol can slam fire.

[SingleStacker45]

I believe it to be a short stroking issue. I have owned alot of glocks(G19,17,36,21,23) and it seems to happen to me more with new guns and winchester white box ammo. I currently replace any factory recoil spring with at least a reduced power wolf or ISMI usually 15lbs or less and I dont get those failures. Try shooting it with a weak grip and see if it gets worse. Does it happen with your carry ammo? Have you tested several hundred rounds of your carry ammo to be sure?

Mule

[sjc3081]

Glock 19 phase Three Malfunction that Glock refuses to address publicly.

The Gun Zone banner
Glock e-toolThe Truth about those…

NYPD "Phase Three" Malfunctions
A first-hand report about the mysterious Glock 19 malady

"Phase Three Malfunction? Never heard of it!"

Close-up of Phase 3 malfunction
So begins the typical conversation about an annoying gremlin that has been irritating the New York City Police Department Firearms and Tactics Section (FTS) and Glock, Inc. for approximately six years. When NYPD began experiencing a specific type of malfunction, apparently endemic to the Glock Model 19 service weapon, sometime in 1996, the FTS coined the term "Phase Three" to identify this particular non-reducible stoppage, described as basically a jam where a fired casing is partially extracted, the case rim still solidly lodged under the extractor with the mouth of the casing firmly wedged against the barrel hood. The casing is not vertical in position as in a stovepipe malfunction, but rather horizontal, exactly on the same plane as would be a cartridge loaded in the chamber but higher.

This type of malfunction is non-reducible by currently trained methods. The tap, rack, roll or tap, rack, bang or lock, rip, rack, etc. is not a feasible course of corrective action because the slide is locked up tight in the position of holding the partially extracted casing. The example I actually handled was so badly locked up that it resisted a hammer and screwdriver. Pat Rogers, (retired NYPD and Gunsite Rangemaster) has advised that the ones he encountered at Gunsite were reducible using a pen or like device as a prying instrument.

Glock Model 19 - third generation This is not the type of situation one would like to face during a defensive encounter. Similar malfunctions have also occurred with other law enforcement agencies, and at least one non-DOD government agency (using M882 Ball ammo), but by far the most occurrences are seen within the NYPD. This is understandable when you consider that there are over 25,000 Glock Models 19 in the hands of NYPD MOS. No other agency deploys this particular weapon in such large numbers on a daily basis.

When this issue first arose circa 1996 the NYPD was utilizing a standard pressure 115 grain FMJ round produced specifically for the department by Winchester. It was designated a non-standard load by Winchester, and identified as the "Q4146" round. Since this was not a very hot load it was postulated that the ammo was the cause of this malfunction. Unfortunately, when the NYPD transitioned in 1999 to a "hot" 124 grain +P Speer GDHP that was specifically "souped up" to around 1225 FPS, the occurrences of Phase Three's diminished, but did not altogether disappear. It should be noted that during this time frame none of the other department-approved 9mm semi-automatic pistols in use experienced a single Phase Three malfunction.

As this malfunction became more of an issue, the Department naturally approached Glock, Inc. and requested assistance. At the onset, Glock refused to acknowledge the problem and only reluctantly agreed to replace one-for-one the guns that displayed the problem. NYPD felt that this did not address the issue properly. I personally know one officer, one of the most senior members assigned to the Emergency Services Unit, who had two different Model 19 pistols Phase Three on him three times on two consecutive days. This MOS is a great shooter and knows how to operate in a hostile environment. He gave up and purchased an S&W Model 59461 from the approved list. While NYPD itself was attempting to downplay the issue with MOS by asserting that the Phase Three malfunction had only occurred at the department range during practice and qualification sessions, they were, unfortunately, being less than truthful. As a Sergeant in a confidential investigative unit in mid-1997 I personally delivered to the range a Model 19 that had locked up tight after a Detective got off one round in a street confrontation. Fortunately the perps fled after that first shot and my guy was uninjured. In 1998 as a Lieutenant I worked with a police officer whose Model 19 did the same thing in a running gunfight. Fortunately for him he was with other MOS whose guns did not malfunction, and the bad guy was turned into a colander.

Clearly this issue was getting out of hand and both the NYPD hierarchy and Glock management realized it.

Glock finally stood up and took notice when the NYPD contacted Sturm Ruger and requested pricing and delivery times for that company to replace every Glock Model 19 currently in use by the department with one of the Ruger P-series 9 X 19mm pistols. In response, Glock began taking a look at the extractor and the geometry of the surfaces of the slide and barrel hood in the area of the ejection port. As a result of this situation Glock began to make an earnest effort to correct the problem by making modifications to the design of the Model 19.

In July 2001 I was attending the Summer Qualification Cycle at the outdoor range. During the initial brief before the day's shooting began it was announced that every shooter would be putting 100 rounds through some "experimental" Glocks which the Department was testing. The stated goal was to put at least one million rounds through them in order to fully evaluate the design. Each shooter was issued an "experimental" Glock Model 19 and three magazines with the orange base plates. A brief visual examination prior to shooting disclosed it to be a rather standard looking third generation Model 19 with the finger grooves and rail. The only noticeable design difference was the extractor. It had a square protrusion of extra metal on the leading edge closest to the chamber. My initial impression was that it was designed as a loaded chamber indicator. During shooting, however, the "experimental" Model 19 proved to be problematic. All shooters were asked to advise the line officers of any and all problems with the weapons. I began shooting slowly to check out the action and immediately noticed a strange "stutter" as the gun cycled. Upon holding the trigger fully rearward after each shot I found that in 60% of the shots fired the slide would stay about 1/16 of an inch out of battery until the trigger was released and allowed to cycle forward. At that time the slide would go into full battery. I called over the nearest range officer and directed him to observe the rear of the slide of the weapon as I fired. He picked up on it immediately without my having to explain the problem to him, commenting: "The slide is staying back until you release the trigger." He stayed behind me for the rest of that box of ammo and observed the functioning of the weapon. During a break to reload magazines he noted the serial number of the pistol on the rear of the score sheet along with a description of the event. For the second box of ammo I shot rapid-fire exclusively to see if the function of the weapon was affected. I had two failures to go into battery; the first was about ¼-inch out of battery and was reduced by a support-hand smack to the rear of the slide. The second, about two magazines later was a full failure to chamber with the nose of the next round buried in the feed ramp. A sharp tap to the base plate of the magazine reduced it. In both cases shooting resumed after corrective action was taken with no further difficulty. Not too impressive a performance for the "experimental" Glock. When speaking with the range officer I asked if this was Glock's answer to the Phase Three problem and he answered in the affirmative and described the new extractor as also serving as a chamber loaded indicator. Although these were not Phase Three malfunctions that I was experiencing that day, my opinion of the "experimental" Model 19 was not at all favorable.

Slowly, the Phase Three issue has begun cropping up in areas previously unsullied. Pat Rogers has reported multiple Models 19 experiencing "Phase Threes" on the line at Gunsite over a three-day period. He relates that a change of ammo corrected the problem for the shooters he was instructing in that group. However, another class shooting the same lot of ammo at the same time had none of their Models 19 burp even once. Why did one group of 19s choke when the others didn't? Pat himself owned a Model 19 that suffered Phase Three stoppages so consistently that he had no choice but to get rid of it. Internet discussion groups have revealed other police and privately owned Models 19 with the same problems. It is now mid-2002 and the issue is still not resolved. Glock has had many meetings with the staff of the NYPD FTS and has indeed put effort into a solution. My understanding is that Glock is in the process of attempting a long term solution to this problem but that as of this writing it has yet to be implemented.2

Let me be clear on one thing: I am not bashing the Glock Model 19. I have one that has been utterly reliable for me through literally tens of thousands of rounds since 1992. The Model 19 is a good weapon and if I had to stop carrying my 1911 tomorrow I would not feel uncomfortable using that particular weapon as a carry gun. My issue Model 19 performed well on the streets of NY City for ten years of service. It is my personal belief that if you own a Model 19 that has not experienced a Phase Three with extensive use you are probably good to go. What I am saying is that there is an issue regarding the reliability of some specimens of this model and it must be fully addressed before someone pays the bill on it with their life.

by Sean L. McMahon, Lieutenant, NYPD, Retired

[sjc3081]

/www.thegunzone.com/glock/phase3.html

[ST911]

Don't put in any other parts, especially the aftermarket stuff. The OEM recoil spring and rod is fine.

Clean the gun per the manual and relube with a quality purpose-built lubricant.

Have an armorer inspect it.

[skyugo]

So um...Ever consider cleaning it?


Seriously, that's due for a detail cleaning. Google some instructions on how to detail strip the slide. It's stupidly easy.

I'd bet that would go a ways towards making your baby work as she should.

sticky chamber/action+weak ammo... hmm

[Iraqgunz]

That's what I thought as soon as I saw that pic.

+1 on the cleaning. I think you need to get some good powde solvent and clean that breech area and the whole gun in general. I would then lube it properly, re-assemble, and shoot it. If you are still having issues send it to Glock.


Looks like the dreaded Phase Three malfunction.

[Littlelebowski]

Hose the entire thing down with non chlorinated brake cleaner. Disassemble and use use a carbon solvent soaked toothbrush to clean. Reassemble and shoot.

[markm]

Even as filthy as that thing is.... it should still run all day long.

There was some post here a while back (I think it was here) where some Iraqi had basically packed a Glock 19 with grease for some reason. As mess up as it was, the pistol still functioned.

[Wayne Dobbs]

These are NYPD Phase III malfunctions and no amount of parts replacement will rememdy it. Been there, done that with all the cursing to accompany same on another G19. Glock had to do a retrofit milling operation on thousands of NYPD G19s to solve the problem (and to keep the business).

Cleanliness has nothing to do with it. Another nasty truth about this is that normal clearance moves (tap/rack, etc.) won't clear it as the case is still trapped by the extractor claw but it has moved up high enough on the breech face that the ejector won't contact it.

[sjc3081]

www.thegunzone.com/glock/phase3a.html

www.thegunzone.com/glock/phase3.html

[Paulinski]

I agree with the above. Clean the pistol and try it again. If the problem persists off to Glock it goes.

[nsabjg]

A little TLC with the CLP.

[gtmtnbiker98]

I would venture to guess that the extractor and extractor spring is so dirty that it can't function properly. What are you cleaning with, bearing grease? What isn't fouled with carbon is packed in grease. I would attribute this malfunction to lack of proper maintenance. Yes, it's a Glock but even they need cleaned.

I would be anxious to see what the striker channel looks like....;)

[one]

WHOA! That's like looking at Rosie Odonnel on HD TV!

J/K man, you take some seriously nicely detailed pictures. If that's not your profession it probably ought to be.

[SingleStacker45]

I believe it to be a short stroking issue. I have owned alot of glocks(G19,17,36,21,23) and it seems to happen to me more with new guns and winchester white box ammo. I currently replace any factory recoil spring with at least a reduced power wolf or ISMI usually 15lbs or less and I dont get those failures. Try shooting it with a weak grip and see if it gets worse. Does it happen with your carry ammo? Have you tested several hundred rounds of your carry ammo to be sure?

Mule

[gringop]

I had the same issue with my G-19. My final fix was to clean up the ejector face with a fine stone and bend it up so that it rides as high in the channel in the slide as possible. I bought a replacement ejector/trigger housing but have not put it in as my fix has been working fine for over 2 years.

With 9mm, the ejector needs to be in the exact right spot to do its job.

Your Extractor also looks a bit worn. A new one is cheap.

Gringop

[DBR]

Before you go too far: have you tried some full powered ammo? I have had some problems like you have with Glocks using weak ammo. American made 9mm+P is at the bottom end of the NATO power ammo the gun was designed to shoot and all the brands you listed are on the mild side of standard pressure.

The I can duplicate the type of jam you show (sometimes) by using a stronger than stock recoil spring in my G19s. The slide does not go back all the way and catches the empty on the way out. It seems the G19 is more prone to this problem then either the G17 or the G26.

Try Speer 124gr+P Gold Dot, or Remington 124gr+P Golden Saber or any other premium +P load.

[crowkiller]

I find this book pretty helpful:
http://www.lonewolfdist.com/Detail.aspx?PROD=3709

[sjc3081]

www.thegunzone.com/glock/phase3a.html

www.thegunzone.com/glock/phase3.html

Theses problems have never been publicly address by Glock and even suppressed.

[Littlelebowski]

That guy has a chip on his shoulder for Glock.

[ToddG]

No one who knows Dean personally would say he has a chip on his shoulder. In fact, he often uses a Glock and owns more than one himself. Unlike most Internet fluff, he actually cites sources and provides documentation. He's only been branded a Glock-hater by those who cannot stand criticism of their favorite idol.

[Littlelebowski]

I stand corrected. His site alone gave me that impression, Todd. Plus any talk of a "cover up' gets my antenna twitching. Do you have any insight on the matter?

[ToddG]

Regarding the Phase III stuff? I'd say Dean's report was pretty accurate. I had a G19 from that period which suffered from the problem as well. I don't have my data in front of me but it was somewhere in the neighborhood of 25 such malfunctions in a few thousand rounds. Replaced the extractor assembly multiple times per Glock's recommendation at the time with no resolution. Finally sold the gun to someone who knew its history and didn't care.

I was working at the NRA during this time and saw quite a few folks come into the range with this problem, as well.

[Iraqgunz]

Wasn't this around 2002/2003 time frame with the whole NYPD thing? I remember meeting a deputy from an agency in California who told me that they had issues with alot of their G21's as well and when they tried to resolve it Glock was very non-responsive. As a matter of fact I think that I have the email he sent me somewhere.


Regarding the Phase III stuff? I'd say Dean's report was pretty accurate. I had a G19 from that period which suffered from the problem as well. I don't have my data in front of me but it was somewhere in the neighborhood of 25 such malfunctions in a few thousand rounds. Replaced the extractor assembly multiple times per Glock's recommendation at the time with no resolution. Finally sold the gun to someone who knew its history and didn't care.

I was working at the NRA during this time and saw quite a few folks come into the range with this problem, as well.

[ToddG]

My G19 issue was around '98 I think. The NYPD problems began in the mid to late 90's.

[sjc3081]

My G19 issue was around '98 I think. The NYPD problems began in the mid to late 90's.

NYPD began wide spread issuing of the G19 in 1994 and the problem was identified immediately. I know because I was there and saw the G19s jamming around me at the NYPD outdoor range. I personally know three NYC Police Officers whose G19's jammed during during gunfights.

[jhs1969]

Does anyone know if current production G19's have been corrected. What prefix #'s should I be looking for?

I'm currently trying to decide between a G19, G17, M&P9c or a second M&P9.

[ToddG]

Does anyone know if current production G19's have been corrected.

Well, the OP is reporting this problem on a Gen 3 gun so clearly it's possible it will happen on current production guns. But it's certainly not common anymore. And on the slim chance it does happen, Glock now (a) admits it's happening and (b) fixes it.

[jhs1969]

Thanks Todd,

will now have to work out which one will serve me best.

[Littlelebowski]

Mine sure as heck doesn't have the problem. 3rd gen gun.

Back on topic, I think a lot of us, myself included would like hear what happens when the OP (original poster) cleans his G19.

[Iraqgunz]

The G19 that I bought on R/R is an MFM prefix and I had zero issues with it. Though I only fired about 200 rounds through it initially. Obviously anything could go wrong with anything. I would give it a good cleaning, use some well known ammo and see what happens. If it was still an issue I would contact Glock and make them deal with it.

Making maufacturers deal with the problem is the only way to ensure that we get quality stuff.

[ToddG]

Back on topic, I think a lot of us, myself included would like hear what happens when the OP (original poster) cleans his G19.

There is no way the gun is dirty enough to cause a malf like that. As Wayne pointed out repeatedly, it's a textbook Phase 3 malf and no amount of cleaning and lube will make it go away.

[Wayne Dobbs]

And gentlemen (and ladies), I didn't mean to point this out repeatedly. The board was apparently taking a dump each time I tried to post and wouldn't put any of the posts up. Therefore, I would try another post...and another and another. When I saw that ALL of them showed up this morning, I felt like an idiot. The gun does look dirty, but that's not the issue here and that's been well addressed by Todd and others.

Glad to see you back!

[M4arc]

I agree with Todd and Wayne in that there is no way that gun is dirty enough to cause those malfunctions. There is something wrong there and the OP should be on the horn with Glock.

And Wayne, no worries. We know the board was causing all sorts of issues.

[thetallengineer]

Using the links provided I disassembled the slide and cleaned all the crevices and really tried to get things nice and neat. Overall there wasn't that much accumalation of "crude". The upclose pictures really do skew the way the gun looks with respect to cleanilness.

Additionally, I started having type three malfunctions from day one with the gun but they were infrequent enough in the beginning for me to attribute it to a slight need for break-in. I was unaware of Glocks past history with the issue until Wayne gave me a call while the board was down.

I spoke with Glock earlier in the week and they agreed that it should come in for inspection. I asked about NYPD type three malfunctions and he mentioned they had an established machining procedure to rememdy slides exhibiting this type of behavior.


With regard to JHS1969's inquiry about current production G19s and which gun to get, I wouldn't let this problem sway your decision. I really enjoy shooting my G19 and think it is an excellent choice, especially for concealed carry. All gun manufacturers will make a gun from time to time that doesn't work properly and needs some special attention or replacing.

[Littlelebowski]

Good thread, I was corrected and learned from said corrections.

I bought my G19 a year ago and love the darned thing.

[ToddG]

Wayne -- Since folks still didn't get the message, I left all of them in. If you want me to delete any of your posts in this thread, just PM me.

edited to add: Done.

[subzero]

I spoke with Glock earlier in the week and they agreed that it should come in for inspection. I asked about NYPD type three malfunctions and he mentioned they had an established machining procedure to rememdy slides exhibiting this type of behavior.

It'd be interesting to see what they would modify on the gun to correct that.

[thetallengineer]

I'll be sure to document the before and after when updating the thread.

[Wayne Dobbs]

It'd be interesting to see what they would modify on the gun to correct that.

If I'm not mistaken, they mill a relief cut on the extractor side of the breechface.

[Federale]

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c270/dspipes/Glocks/DSC00822.jpg

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c270/dspipes/Glocks/DSC00821.jpg

This was the milling job done at Rodman's Neck on my G19. If memory serves, it might have been in 2000. For the record, I had about ten thousand rounds through it at the time they took it and cut into the slide and I had never had the malfunction. I never had a problem afterwards either. Obviously some people's observations are different, but I never saw anyone have the malfunction, nor in my experience, was it quite as widespread as the internet made the Phase 3 appear.

I think you can tell where they milled from the picture.

At the time the slides were milled, it should be noted that Glock also replaced all the magazines. They all had new followers. Sorry, I don't recall what number iteration of the follower it was at the time.

[doughnut]

This is really intersting because I bought a G19 in 09/2008 that has the same S/N prefix of "MDD." I have not had the opportunity to fire it yet. If the weather cooperates Monday I'll try to put rounds through it and see if it suffers from the same issue. I hope the O/P gets it worked out.

[ToddG]

dougnut -- The odds your G19 will have the Phase 3 problem are about the same as you getting struck by lightning. People get struck by lightning every year, of course, but it's probably not something you worry about. I wouldn't think twice about it.

[Stretz Tactical Inc]

I had a phase 3 when I worked in the city in the late 90's. I had about 1,500 rounds through the gun at the time. They had to pry the case out with a screwdriver. I only worked in the city a few years and when I read in the newspaper that glock was at rodmans neck fixing guns, I called glock and told them I still had my NYPD issued glock, had a phase three and would like to bring my gun to rodmans neck for them to work on it. They refused saying it was unnecessary and that they are only doing it for NYPD so they dont lose their sales. I still have the gun and have somewhere around 6,000 rounds through it now, but I haven't carried or shot it since about mid 2002. I wonder if I called them today if they would accomadate me?

[doughnut]

dougnut -- The odds your G19 will have the Phase 3 problem are about the same as you getting struck by lightning. People get struck by lightning every year, of course, but it's probably not something you worry about. I wouldn't think twice about it.


10-4, thanks, I understand. But if by chance my G19 does suffer from the Phase 3 problem I'll also be sure to remain in doors at all times to avoid being struck by lightning :D

[bmg]

From the picture I'm not completely sure what was milled in the slide. It's the 15 degree cut that current production guns come standard with?

[ToddG]

As I understood it, the milling of the slide to the now-standard angled cut was not to prevent the Phase 3 malf, it was to make it easier to clear without tools. Which would make sense if 3rd gen Glock 19's are having this type of malf once in a while.

[Federale]

From the picture I'm not completely sure what was milled in the slide. It's the 15 degree cut that current production guns come standard with?

They milled the angle on the slide at the extractor. The flat cut at the front edge of the extractor in the first picture is what they milled away.

And I believe that Todd is correct in why they milled there. Personally, I think the "fix" had more to do with the magazine followers than the milling of the slide.

I think the Phase 3 malfunction was probably overblown. Everybody seems to forget that the NYPD is the largest police force in the nation and there's more Glock 19s there than probably anywhere else. I know NYPD instructors and armorers and was there when this all happened. Most of them hadn't seen or even heard of this problem. I'm not denying that it happened, but I'm saying that I believe that the problem was magnified by the internet and by people not understanding that the NYPD had 25,000 or so Glock 19s running in one place.

[ToddG]

Except it didn't just happen at NYPD. The fact that NYPD had enough of them to insist all of its guns were modified simply demonstrates that they have a lot of clout with Glock, appropriately.

I'd bet the change to the followers (and possibly the recoil spring tension by a small amount ... that's been rumored but never confirmed) is what keeps the problem from recurring much on newer production guns.

[Federale]

Except it didn't just happen at NYPD. The fact that NYPD had enough of them to insist all of its guns were modified simply demonstrates that they have a lot of clout with Glock, appropriately.

I'd bet the change to the followers (and possibly the recoil spring tension by a small amount ... that's been rumored but never confirmed) is what keeps the problem from recurring much on newer production guns.

I didn't say that it only happened there. But its associated with the NYPD and THAT has more to do with 25,000 of them being in service at one place than anything else. I don't think that milling the slide did much of anything to "fix" the problem. It was mostly a feel good measure. I think that the change in followers had more to do with it. And my firsthand knowledge tells me that despite the internet hype, this most definitely was not a rampant problem. In fact, it was so rare that most of the trainers at Rodman's Neck (who see A LOT of Glock 19s) hadn't ever encountered one.

[Stretz Tactical Inc]

I didn't say that it only happened there. But its associated with the NYPD and THAT has more to do with 25,000 of them being in service at one place than anything else. I don't think that milling the slide did much of anything to "fix" the problem. It was mostly a feel good measure. I think that the change in followers had more to do with it. And my firsthand knowledge tells me that despite the internet hype, this most definitely was not a rampant problem. In fact, it was so rare that most of the trainers at Rodman's Neck (who see A LOT of Glock 19s) hadn't ever encountered one.

If there are 25,000 in one agency, then how many are there in holsters (LE, mil or otherwise) all over the country? How many G19's out of all the non NYC guns out there have experienced this one or more times and it has not been recorded? I think what NYC is seeing in one place with such a large number of glock 19's in the hands of people of different skill levels says a lot.

[Federale]

If there are 25,000 in one agency, then how many are there in holsters (LE, mil or otherwise) all over the country? How many G19's out of all the non NYC guns out there have experienced this one or more times and it has not been recorded? I think what NYC is seeing in one place with such a large number of glock 19's in the hands of people of different skill levels says a lot.


I guess I'm not being clear. If someone says that there are a dozen documented cases of this malfunction in a department, it makes a big difference if there are 12 people in the department or 40,000 officers like in the NYPD. And if the NYPD saw a couple dozen instances over a period of a couple of years, then you're talking a couple of dozen pistols out of well more than 25,000. So the context is important.

Did it happen? Sure. Do I have the exact numbers? No. But was it rampant? No. Not even if you could say that you knew 50 Glock 19 carrying NYPD officers who had the malfunction. That would be 50/25,000. And seeing as how I was there and know a lot of officers, instructors and armorers and can count on my right hand how many actually saw or encountered this malfunction, what I'm saying is that it wasn't exactly widespread.

The Glock 19 IS in a lot of holsters at the NYPD and in a lot of holsters all over the world and has been for almost 20 years. What the Glock 19 has proven to be is a highly reliable pistol. Not a malfunction waiting to happen.

[DrewH]

I had a couple, and I mean two or three, phase three jams, in circa 25,000 rounds fired through my G19s. Ammo was PMC, pretty low power stuff.

Speaking of followers, I have never had a single failure with the number 5 or number 6 followers in the G19 magazines I acquired since the end of the AW ban. This is circa 3, 000 rounds, and I had some minor problems with the G19 (and G19s I owned before my current one) before I switched.

Maybe it is just coincidence, but I am a believer in the new followers :).

[Heavy Metal]

Good thread, I was corrected and learned from said corrections.

I bought my G19 a year ago and love the darned thing.


Same here. Mine is less than a year old and I have put around 4K rounds on it.

99% of it was WWB. Zero malfunctions unless I was shooting ball and dummy drills without a mag in which case I would get an occasional stovepipe and I mean a true type two malf. The Glock needs the mag to eject properly.

All up, it has been flawless. All my mags are late production.

Another thing. 90% of those rounds were shot using G-17 mags.

[ToddG]

The Glock needs the mag to eject properly.

Very common among other brands of semiauto pistol, as well.

[JonInWA]

There was an additional modification incorporated by Glock to preclude the "Phase 3" malfunction: The top of the breechblock was beveled for about 1/8" at the top foward edge; if you look hard at Federale's photo, you can see it. I believe that this minimized the lock time on firing, assisting in the barrel camming/decoupling from the slide during the initial portion of the slide reciprocation on firing. To the best of my knowledge, only G19 barrels have this bevel.

Best, Jon

[LowSpeedHighDrag]

http://files.thetallengineer.com/post/g1.jpg

Your extractor is seriously jacked up.


http://i434.photobucket.com/albums/qq64/LowSpeedHighDrag/Goodextractor.jpg


Mine runs without fail 100% of the time for the last 12 years.

Replace your extractor.

According to your pictures and comparing it to my Glock 26 extractor, yours is definitely out of spec.

I would also highly recommend getting the old style non-loaded chamber indicator extractor along with the correct spring loaded bearing for the old style extractor.

I am 100% positive this will fix your problem.

[JonInWA]

The original poster has a 3rd Generation G19; going back to a previous generation's extractor per se is not going to resolve his problem(s). I would recommend checking/replacing the extractor (if incorrect/chipped) (with the current Loaded Chamber Indicator extractor), insuring that the updated spring-loaded bearing is in place, probably replacing the extractor depressor plunger spring, and insuring that the extractor depresser plunger (the metal piece) is bearing against the extractor, and that the spring loaded bearing (the plastic piece) is bearing against the interior of the slide cover when installed and reassembled; it's possible that this was reversed and could have been causing the problems, especially as the spring loaded bearing can wear if bearing against the metal extractor.

Best, Jon

[LowSpeedHighDrag]

http://i434.photobucket.com/albums/qq64/LowSpeedHighDrag/IMG_2700.jpg

Non LCI on left LCI on right

http://files.thetallengineer.com/post/g1.jpg
http://i434.photobucket.com/albums/qq64/LowSpeedHighDrag/Goodnewstyleextractor.jpg
http://i434.photobucket.com/albums/qq64/LowSpeedHighDrag/Goodextractor.jpg

For me, the old style extractor feeds a lot smoother and has a more consistant ejection pattern
over the new LCI one.

The new LCI extractor puts a lot more drag on the case as it's feeding into battery.

Regardless, the OP should replace it.

[M4arc]

LowSpeedHighDrag - His extractor is correct for a 3rd Gen G19.

What is yours? It looks like a 2nd Gen G19 to me.

[LowSpeedHighDrag]

LowSpeedHighDrag - His extractor is correct for a 3rd Gen G19.

What is yours? It looks like a 2nd Gen G19 to me.

Mine is a really old Glock 26.

The gun is smooth on the finger groove front-strap, and has the all black original Glock 17 trigger assembly (smooth face, black transfer bar), all black striker and black FPS, along with black disconnector.

The frame has the longer rear rails which are machined smooth. (unlike the newer Glock frame rails)

[M4arc]

Regardless, the OP should replace it.

He needs to send it back to Glock. Replacing the extractor isn't going to fix this particular issue.

I would like to see more pictures of your old G26 however. Can you start a new thread?

[LowSpeedHighDrag]

http://i434.photobucket.com/albums/qq64/LowSpeedHighDrag/Glock26.jpg

Isn't she pretty?

http://i434.photobucket.com/albums/qq64/LowSpeedHighDrag/Longerrails.jpg

Here is a quick-pic of the rails.

I'll do a dedicated thread tomorrow when I will be able to take pics in the daylight.

The photos I took required a flash and all the colors are messed up.

[Heavy Metal]

http://i434.photobucket.com/albums/qq64/LowSpeedHighDrag/Glock26.jpg

Isn't she pretty?

http://i434.photobucket.com/albums/qq64/LowSpeedHighDrag/Longerrails.jpg

Here is a quick-pic of the rails.

I'll do a dedicated thread tomorrow when I will be able to take pics in the daylight.

The photos I took required a flash and all the colors are messed up.

You are going to make me get one aren't you?

[LowSpeedHighDrag]

Yes. I will start a new thread I can use natural light.