View Full Version : What say you of this unique setup?
ViniVidivici
12-06-23, 12:47
Having a discussion with a buddy, he wants to mount dual optics on a rifle, as follows:
Simple red dot on top, in main position on the upper, and a 5x magnified Vortex on the side, at a 45 degree angle.
I seek opinions on this setup from the cognoscenti in this regard.
I highly doubt anyone here is going to consider this worth trying.
Pretty much backwards as to how I would do it...if I did it....are you sure he didn't see this on Call of Duty?
I'm not even sure how you mount a scope like that and accurately zero it though, so what do I know.
Inkslinger
12-06-23, 13:26
Why not just get a 5x Eotech magnifier?
I will be experimenting with it in a few weeks. Just to try it as an experiment. It’s a why not, type exercise. I have a theory and might as well test it. If it doesn’t work all I did was waste some ammo.
Inkslinger
12-06-23, 14:00
What’s the theory?
Defaultmp3
12-06-23, 14:02
I assume that they've seen this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8WAEn1GUExs
I personally have reservations, as my line of thinking is that you want to be as stable as possible when using magnification, which an offset magnified optic does not provide. That being said, I could see niche applications where the offset magnification is useful, though they would tend toward gaming rather than duty scenarios. That being said, since I never have used a rifle in a duty/warfighting situation, maybe I don't know what I don't know.
titsonritz
12-06-23, 14:25
I don’t like offset optics, they just get in the way IMO, especially of peripheral vision.
I don’t like offset optics, they just get in the way IMO, especially of peripheral vision.
They suck to use too. But I suppose if you commit to anything lacking, you can make it work for you.
Why not use a flip to side magnifier? Have they gone out of style?
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Defaultmp3
12-06-23, 15:06
Why not just get a 5x Eotech magnifier?
Why not use a flip to side magnifier? Have they gone out of style?Magnifiers take longer to deploy than just canting the rifle. They also typically have poorer optical performance, especially since the sight picture is now going through more than one optic.
Having a discussion with a buddy, he wants to mount dual optics on a rifle, as follows:
Simple red dot on top, in main position on the upper, and a 5x magnified Vortex on the side, at a 45 degree angle.
I seek opinions on this setup from the cognoscenti in this regard.
Is it not typical the magnified optic is in the primary position and the RDS, iron sites, etc in the side or "back up" position? I have also seen RDS on top of a primary magnified optic.
ViniVidivici
12-06-23, 15:45
Yeah that's the norm.
To be clear, Getnlwr isn't doing this for a primary defensive rifle, this is just going to be done experimentally, see how it works. Academic curiosity.
He knows his shit. We've shot together plenty.
I have not seen this video.
I was talking with someone locally that does a lot of competitive shooting and it sparked the idea. In his case it was a NOX18 mounted at a 45degree offset. I want to try it with a 5x vortex prism.
Someone asked about standard equipment most commonly seen:
I do have standard magnifiers. The rifle it’s being tried on currently has a Aimpoint M4S with a twist mount 6x magnifier. Have another magnifier in 3x as well. There are plenty of other optics in general in my spares and try out box. Trying something new or abnormal is something I enjoy doing. I’ve challenged Vini to a shoot off as well in this configuration. It’ll be a few months before we can meet up again but it will be fun to try. I know he’s an experienced shooter too. I respect his skill and want to see how this setup does. I’ll probably bring multiple optics setup to this as well to play with.
Eyebox is going to be your limiting factor, have at. I've dumped everything offset except a 45 on a Badger COMM because the 12 o clock is in the mail.
Everything ( PCC, game rifle, 308 etc) is either Unity FTC or 12 o clock RDS on magnified optic.
No matter how much dry fire my body mechanics/eyes always seem to have me off enough at 50Y when I roll the rifle back from 45 that I spend too much time on the clock hunting for the target.
Tagged for interest.
Coal Dragger
12-06-23, 19:13
I suspect an offset magnified optic will be very very difficult to level mechanically to track correctly when making sight adjustments. Similarly if the optic has a BDC or other reticle features they will be rendered essentially useless due to not being level with the bore.
Then there’s the issue of obstructing the ejection port if you’re setting up for a right handed shooter with the offset magnified optic on the right side. Where the magnified optic will give correct eye relief, it will most likely be directly in the way of exiting brass, may cause malfunctions, and will damn sure get in the way of clearing them.
Just find a used Leupold D-EVO, it does this whole concept better.
Defaultmp3
12-06-23, 19:44
I suspect an offset magnified optic will be very very difficult to level mechanically to track correctly when making sight adjustments. Similarly if the optic has a BDC or other reticle features they will be rendered essentially useless due to not being level with the bore.I don't see how this is true. Seems pretty trivial to make sure to get an offset mount that places it properly over the bore once you cant the gun.
Then there’s the issue of obstructing the ejection port if you’re setting up for a right handed shooter with the offset magnified optic on the right side. Where the magnified optic will give correct eye relief, it will most likely be directly in the way of exiting brass, may cause malfunctions, and will damn sure get in the way of clearing them.If you run a slick side receiver to clear the forward assist, should be fine, a lot of the modern prisms seem to have excellent eye relief and can be mounted as far back as possible and still be perfectly useable, assuming you don't shoot NTCH but instead have a stock mostly extended. You can see how far back Gurwitch has his optic on his rifle, it would be behind the shell deflector if it was on the right side.
Just find a used Leupold D-EVO, it does this whole concept better.I recall those allegedly having dog shit eye relief and eye box, which is a shame, since it was a pretty neat concept.
Just being Devil's advocate here, I personally don't really see any advantage to this for my use case.
If I could find a D-evo for cheap I’d totally try one. Neat concept. It just failed. Maybe it was too early. Or it was just a bad idea.
ViniVidivici
12-06-23, 21:58
This optic is small enough that it would end up mounted behind the brass deflector and ejection port, as DefaultMP3 states. I hadn't thought of that aspect, but in my mind's eye it seems to be a nonissue.
Might get crud on the objective lense over time though...my brass catcher is black inside, where it nestles up against the port.
I just want to say I got here first. :p
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?241347-Thoughts-on-an-odd-configuration-offset-prism
ViniVidivici you even replied to my post. :ph34r:
Coal Dragger
12-07-23, 02:21
If I could find a D-evo for cheap I’d totally try one. Neat concept. It just failed. Maybe it was too early. Or it was just a bad idea.
I played with one once, personally thought it worked pretty well.
Coal Dragger
12-07-23, 02:23
I don't see how this is true. Seems pretty trivial to make sure to get an offset mount that places it properly over the bore once you cant the gun.
If you run a slick side receiver to clear the forward assist, should be fine, a lot of the modern prisms seem to have excellent eye relief and can be mounted as far back as possible and still be perfectly useable, assuming you don't shoot NTCH but instead have a stock mostly extended. You can see how far back Gurwitch has his optic on his rifle, it would be behind the shell deflector if it was on the right side.
I recall those allegedly having dog shit eye relief and eye box, which is a shame, since it was a pretty neat concept.
Just being Devil's advocate here, I personally don't really see any advantage to this for my use case.
I was thinking more of a tube style magnified optic, a prism would probably work as you describe.
What's the application? IMO maybe on a set course with known targets this could be a niche advantage but not something I would do on a defensive gun.
Why?
Alignment is more critical for magnified. Thats why people optimize around magnified, and put offset or hight 12 rds, cause 200yds in, it doesnt matter.
Why would you put the optic for 500yd shots in a position to make those shots much more difficult?
titsonritz
12-07-23, 21:06
What's the application? IMO maybe on a set course with known targets this could be a niche advantage but not something I would do on a defensive gun.
Why?
Alignment is more critical for magnified. Thats why people optimize around magnified, and put offset or hight 12 rds, cause 200yds in, it doesnt matter.
Why would you put the optic for 500yd shots in a position to make those shots much more difficult?
Watch the video in posted by @Defaultmp3
ROCKET20_GINSU
12-07-23, 21:18
Have a good friend of mine that used this concept very successfully in 3 gun in the early 2000s. His rational was that you do 90%+ of your shooting 50 and in, so he was shooting open with an Eotech at 12 and canted his magnified optic ACOG at 45. He even mounted his detachable bipod so that it supported the acog at 45. Unconventional but effective.
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If I could find a D-evo for cheap I’d totally try one. Neat concept. It just failed. Maybe it was too early. Or it was just a bad idea.
Am instructor had one on his rifle and I played with it. You very much looked down into the magnified optic. It was an extremely wierd way to shoot. I did not like it at all.
Watch the video in posted by @Defaultmp3
I did and still dont think this offers any benefit over swaping positions.
A well placed 45 rds doesnt have any drawbacks that I can think of vs top mounted. The magnified does.
A well placed 45 rds doesnt have any drawbacks that I can think of vs top mounted.
That's not the feedback I got when I asked abut using an offset RDS as primary (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?225795-Offset-RDS-as-primary-FSB-secondary) a few years ago.
I did and still dont think this offers any benefit over swaping positions.
A well placed 45 rds doesnt have any drawbacks that I can think of vs top mounted. The magnified does.
An offset red dot does not work well with night vision, also more difficult for shooting around barricades/obstacles. What ever is offset or piggybacked will be secondary. What ever is mounted on top of the receiver is primary. The point of this setup is to have the red dot as a primary optic with the anticipation of close targets being the biggest threat. With an offset micro prism smaller targets and at distance targets is a smooth and quick transition.
When somebody like Jeff Gurwitch speaks I listen, he has many years of combat and competitive shooting experience. After watching his video several weeks ago I tried this out on a 7.62x39 AR. I was able to make hits on steel at 500 yards off the bench. Squatting, kneeling and prone hits where fairly easy out to 300 yards. I’ve only been to the range with this setup once so it’s still to soon for me to know how well it will work for me, but I thinking it’s a good idea.
ViniVidivici
12-08-23, 21:07
I just want to say I got here first. :p
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?241347-Thoughts-on-an-odd-configuration-offset-prism
ViniVidivici you even replied to my post. :ph34r:
HA! Yeah, I forgot all about that!
Intuitively, it just does not seem optimal, which was my first reaction to Getnlwr's proposal.
Buy thank you for posting that vid @Defaultmp3, I'd wondered what someone like Mr. Gurwitch would think about the setup. I had no idea he was already going down that road!
I do have to admit that if your particular mission (driving the gear train, as it does) will require MOST hits to be very close-in, and more rarely a bit farther out and/or needing more precision, it DOES lend legitimacy to the concept.
I like that he points out the value of magnification even inside 50 yards. I myself have noticed great advantage in this, in my "poor man's ACOG" journey with a 2.5x in top of a 16" middy, as even though I can easily make a hit to 200 with a simple dot, I've enjoyed the enhanced precision just a little magnification affords, even at less than 50.
I scored my best MNQ with that setup not too long ago.
Finally got to watch the video a couple times. They got the concept that I was thinking. Was neat seeing a guy doing it with a lefty setup. I have to wonder about carbon buildup on the lense. I prefer shooting suppressed and there is generally more blow back. I did consider a left side vertical mount that would make the POA not equal POI. But always being a couple inches to the right would drive me nuts. Might be okay for a gaming rifle. The gun that will be used as the experiment host was built specifically for ColaWarrior. The rifle is just for fun, and sometimes that’s enough.
An offset red dot does not work well with night vision, also more difficult for shooting around barricades/obstacles. What ever is offset or piggybacked will be secondary. What ever is mounted on top of the receiver is primary. The point of this setup is to have the red dot as a primary optic with the anticipation of close targets being the biggest threat. With an offset micro prism smaller targets and at distance targets is a smooth and quick transition.
When somebody like Jeff Gurwitch speaks I listen, he has many years of combat and competitive shooting experience. After watching his video several weeks ago I tried this out on a 7.62x39 AR. I was able to make hits on steel at 500 yards off the bench. Squatting, kneeling and prone hits where fairly easy out to 300 yards. I’ve only been to the range with this setup once so it’s still to soon for me to know how well it will work for me, but I thinking it’s a good idea.
As for nv, then go with 12:00.
I have a 1.25-4x as primary
12:00rds for nvg or anything close.
The drawbacks for magnified or drawbacks for compromised cheekweld are splitting hairs and really probably wouldnt matter either way - its just not how Id do it.
When the top 5 of whatever competition are running thst setup, I'd reconsider.
ExplorinInTheWoods
12-10-23, 09:15
I understand the reason in the video since I’ve shot matches against stukas but I rather have my LPVO and an offset dot. The offset prism gives you a hair of magnification for small targets but honestly past 200 you’re getting into weird holds. I can still use my offset dot under nods too. A badger 1.70 j arm works with nods.
As for nv, then go with 12:00.
I have a 1.25-4x as primary
12:00rds for nvg or anything close.
The drawbacks for magnified or drawbacks for compromised cheekweld are splitting hairs and really probably wouldnt matter either way - its just not how Id do it.
When the top 5 of whatever competition are running thst setup, I'd reconsider.
All good points especially about the top 5 % of the competition. Piggyback rmr works for me although follow up shots are slower. This my first time using a PA 3X prism and the question that I keep asking myself is for day time do I really need a rds. The 3X prism is plenty fast as is although anything under 25 yards a rds will be faster and more forgiving. At this point it’s just an experiment.
ViniVidivici
12-14-23, 19:45
I too have experienced this with a prism optic, much like with my LPVO, I hardly use illumination at all in daylight.
The PA 2.5x I'm using has a reticle (ACSS/CQB) that is bold enough for very fast use, without being lit up.
I mainly use the illumination when it's dark, or in an area where the background of the targets give low contrast with the reticle.
LOVE the fact that I can just grab it off the wall and it's ready, I don't absolutely have to turn it on.
Trying to get the eye relief back in the position I need it is a challenge. I sort of want to try this with a 3X prismatic as well. The short size of the optic is making the mounting solution extremely difficult. Have not given up through. I have moved it around a bit on different guns. The offset angle would work well on my AUG too I think. And the longer rail on it resolves my eye relief issue. Just thinking.
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