View Full Version : Palmetto State Armory AR’s - I’m impressed
A few weeks ago I get sent the Black Friday emails from PSA. Complete lowers for 129.99 and M4 uppers for 229.99. I didn’t need anything, but a buddy of mine wanting to get into an AR, on a small budget, it seemed like just the ticket.
He orders both and with shipping + 20$ transfer is into it for a hair over 400$.
I went out yesterday to help him zero it and look it over for anything out of place, being that it was so cheap….well…. it was perfect.
-Receiver extension was staked
-H buffer
-Bolt Carrier extension was staked and done so very well
-Upper/lower fit was tight
-FSB pins were flush, FSB was straight as an arrow with receiver
-158 bolt
-Clean Mil spec trigger
Has a 4150 nitride barrel that was accurate and the gun ran 200 rounds of WIN M193 that ejected @ 4 o’clock in neat little piles. Gun was over gassed, but not by very much. Tan furniture and B5 stock.
PSA has the ‘Sabre’ line, the more ‘Mil-Spec’ product I guess, but I think one would be hard pressed to find a better deal to quality for what he got and is thrilled with the purchase.
So hats off to PSA, they did it right.
BuzzinSATX
12-16-23, 21:54
I have complete uppers/lowers from BCM, SOLGW, and my main HD gun is an old Daniel Defense DDV2, but I shoot the piss out of my cheap PSA and it’s never failed me yet.
I think they are a decent choice if a person is on a tight budget.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
https://66.media.tumblr.com/128b4e8653dfe192739441b7f805a1cd/tumblr_n74kmm4z6i1sulifvo1_250.gifv
ViniVidivici
12-17-23, 01:45
We have 2 PSA uppers, and a BCG and some small lower parts in another gun, they're fine.
Gun I shot today was a PSA upper, I was hitting steel with it just fine, as usual.
How many clicks over did it take to zero your buddy's gun, windage-wise? PSA is notorious for canted FSBs.
One of our 2 uppers was like that. Still zeroed, but something like 21 clicks over, I think. ( I fixed it the fun way...ground it down into just a gas block, put a rail and MI front sight on it. Fun project and it's better in every way, shoots tighter too, being free-floated.)
Other was fine, zeroed within 5 clicks L.
I think the minimum AR I would own for anything serious would be a M&P. And even there I'm taking some chances.
Nothing wrong with PSA, if it's just a hobby gun.
Of course there are people who are spending over $2k on seriously substandard crap grade rifles so hard to say who is more wrong.
bamashooter
12-17-23, 07:30
A few weeks ago I get sent the Black Friday emails from PSA. Complete lowers for 129.99 and M4 uppers for 229.99. I didn’t need anything, but a buddy of mine wanting to get into an AR, on a small budget, it seemed like just the ticket.
He orders both and with shipping + 20$ transfer is into it for a hair over 400$.
I went out yesterday to help him zero it and look it over for anything out of place, being that it was so cheap….well…. it was perfect.
-Receiver extension was staked
-H buffer
-Bolt Carrier extension was staked and done so very well
-Upper/lower fit was tight
-FSB pins were flush, FSB was straight as an arrow with receiver
-158 bolt
-Clean Mil spec trigger
Has a 4150 nitride barrel that was accurate and the gun ran 200 rounds of WIN M193 that ejected @ 4 o’clock in neat little piles. Gun was over gassed, but not by very much. Tan furniture and B5 stock.
PSA has the ‘Sabre’ line, the more ‘Mil-Spec’ product I guess, but I think one would be hard pressed to find a better deal to quality for what he got and is thrilled with the purchase.
So hats off to PSA, they did it right.
Hate to be you. The PSA is not "combat-tested/proven" (sure it is along with DPMS). Go to North-central Africa in your spare time. "Tier-1" operators have not blessed it. That dead guy likely spoke ugly of it. Heaven forbid, it might even have one of those mim things in it. And, and, and .............:rolleyes:
I had a PSA rifle that we put together with a Geissele gas block and gas tube, an FN CHF barrel and a Larue MBT-2S trigger.
Maybe that is why it ran well.
I'm happy you got one which appears to be assembled correctly. Take your friend out and teach him how to field strip and maintain the weapon, then let us know how she shoots!
@Vinividivici - maybe 8 clicks right for windage. Could have been less, had it zero’d on the first magazine. 50/200 meter zero.
Hammer_Man
12-17-23, 14:04
Colt Autism melt down incoming in 5..4..3..2..1…
We have 2 PSA uppers, and a BCG and some small lower parts in another gun, they're fine.
Gun I shot today was a PSA upper, I was hitting steel with it just fine, as usual.
How many clicks over did it take to zero your buddy's gun, windage-wise? PSA is notorious for canted FSBs.
One of our 2 uppers was like that. Still zeroed, but something like 21 clicks over, I think. ( I fixed it the fun way...ground it down into just a gas block, put a rail and MI front sight on it. Fun project and it's better in every way, shoots tighter too, being free-floated.)
Other was fine, zeroed within 5 clicks L.
I bought one a few months back. Not quite as inexpensive as the one the OP is talking about but close.
I have a set on Troy fold downs on mine, and the rear aperture is definetly favoring the left hand side.
I thought I was the issue, but set it back to what appeared the factory placement and had a buddy sight it in, without letting him know.
Same thing, maybe 1 full revolution from not having further windage adjustment.
As a side note, it runs Federal Fusion MSR into a 1.30 group at 100M and for the purpose of this rifle, I am pretty happy with it.
Looking though standard AR carry handle rear sights, if the front sight appears centered is the gun good to go or can there still be some cant?
Hammer_Man
12-17-23, 22:49
Looking though standard AR carry handle rear sights, if the front sight appears centered is the gun good to go or can there still be some cant?
A little cant is normal, but not to the point that you can’t zero the rifle.
Looking though standard AR carry handle rear sights, if the front sight appears centered is the gun good to go or can there still be some cant?
Depends on how bad the cant is. You really need an FSB alignment gauge to know for sure. And even if the gauge shows that it's off a bit one way or the other it doesn't always necessarily mean that the FSB was pinned on to the barrel canted.
Also interesting to note, you can indeed have a canted FSB and still end up shooting pretty well centered for windage. However, you can also have a perfectly centered FSB and still end up shooting way left or right for windage. In this case, a lot of guys claim that lapping the face of the upper receiver can bring your windage back to center, which may be true, but I have not tested that for myself.
The drawing specifies the front sight post threads' pitch diameter shall be true position 0.010" of a plane generated by the centerline of the bore and the center of the index slot in the upper receiver.
PSA seems to have gotten better over the years, and I own a few with very high round counts, and have never had a failure. They also have some really fun non-AR type guns as well. I think they're a good option for budget-conscious shooters.
ChattanoogaPhil
12-18-23, 12:00
In 2017 I purchased a PSA pencil upper, blem PSA lower and premium PSA BCG for the wife as a light weight range gun. I think the total was around $400. Shot nearly four cases of M193 through it without a hiccup. She has since lost interest... so whatever.
For those living snake-bit lives who can't seem to do anything without it turning to crap, PSA is probably not for you. But for those who aren't living under a dark cloud, they'll probably be pleased enough with PSA's inexpensive range guns.
We need a updated chart.
It's funny, the chart is what brought me to M4carbine.net. I was in "US Autoweapons-LGS) in Scottsdale and they had it printed out and said, check this out. It was great for a newbie like me.
PB
Honest Abe
12-18-23, 16:49
Try their AAC (American Ammunition Company) ammo...about 1/2 the price of quality match ammo!
I havent seen any of their lowers come with a H buffer. All have been carbine.
Would I buy a PSA as a defense gun or go back to Iraq? No. At least not without a decent amount of testing and parts replacement. That being said I have several complete PSA lowers and they run fine. I recently put together a rifle package for my brother in law with a PSA rifle, Vortex Sparc AR dot, light, and sling. Total cost is around 800 bucks total. Only thing I can find wrong with it was a carbine buffer. Switched that to a H. I still have it as he has not purchased a safe yet, and it shoots well.
It's funny, the chart is what brought me to M4carbine.net. I was in "US Autoweapons-LGS) in Scottsdale and they had it printed out and said, check this out. It was great for a newbie like me.
PB
It was great for it's time. Let you actually make an apples to apples comparison. At the time "mil spec" was the most abused word in the firearms industry and every manufacturer on that list claimed to make a mil spec rifle.
It was great for it's time. Let you actually make an apples to apples comparison. At the time "mil spec" was the most abused word in the firearms industry and every manufacturer on that list claimed to make a mil spec rifle.
I still think the "mil-spec" label is pretty abused still today. I've ordered a lot of parts that were listed as mil-spec in the description and I've been burned many times. Just about to toss a few A2 stock screws into the scrap metal bucket that are not in any way mil-spec as they were described.
Even the Aero Precision rifle buffer tube kit I linked to in another thread is given the mil-spec label, yet in the same product description it says the buffer tube is 6061 aluminum. :blink: Can't be "mil-spec" and 6061, or can it? I might be wrong, but I don't believe so.
Just about to toss a few A2 stock screws into the scrap metal bucket that are not in any way mil-spec as they were described.
How are they wrong?
I have one PSA upper...it has an FN barrel and hasn't been shot yet...it is a spare of a spare.
My PSA lowers were one is a stealth and one was stripped, CMMG and FCD parts were added and they both have Larue MBT Triggers. I believe I added a Sprinco Blue recoil spring and H2 buffers.
The assembled lower mounted to Sionics upper shoots very, very smooth.
How are they wrong?
A mil-spec A2 stock screw should be phosphate finished, and include a red Nylok patch with a drain hole all the way through the length of screw. The screws I received were black oxide finished, with no red Nylok patch. They did have the drain hole, but they also came to me already rusting due to the finish. They also just look to be very poor quality. Similar (if not the same) as these screws shown here. > https://retrorifles.com/buttstock-screw/
I can live without the red Nylok patch if the screw is good quality in every other way, but the ones I received were not as advertised.
Hammer_Man
12-19-23, 11:17
Even the Aero Precision rifle buffer tube kit I linked to in another thread is given the mil-spec label, yet in the same product description it says the buffer tube is 6061 aluminum. :blink: Can't be "mil-spec" and 6061, or can it? I might be wrong, but I don't believe so.
You are not wrong, specified material should be 7075. I think most often the industry refers to the outer dimensions of the receiver extension, not the material used. As long as it fits a mil-spec stock they don’t mind leaving out crucial details. Same goes for the dry film lubricant that is supposed to be applied to the inside of the receiver extensions. Most “mil-spec” receiver extensions don’t have it. I’ve only seen it on Colt receiver extensions I sourced from Arms Unlimited. IIRC the one I ordered from another major online retailer did not have it, but it came in a bag with Colt printed on their inventory sticker.
A mil-spec A2 stock screw should be phosphate finished, and include a red Nylok patch with a drain hole all the way through the length of screw. The screws I received were black oxide finished, with no red Nylok patch. They did have the drain hole, but they also came to me already rusting due to the finish. They also just look to be very poor quality. Similar (if not the same) as these screws shown here. > https://retrorifles.com/buttstock-screw/
I can live without the red Nylok patch if the screw is good quality in every other way, but the ones I received were not as advertised.
Some of the Colt ones that Brownell’s sold a few years ago didn’t have the drain holes either, but that was during the height of the pandemic.
Some of the Colt ones that Brownell’s sold a few years ago didn’t have the drain holes either, but that was during the height of the pandemic.
I got a couple of those drain hole-less Colt A2 stock screws from Brownells during that time. They didn't have the red Nylok patch either, but they were a quality screw in every other way. I still sent them back though since $11 per screw is nuts even if they had the drain hole and Nylok patch.
After not having luck with Colt's A2 stock screws through Brownells I found that YHM was selling A2 stock screws which met the spec exactly, then they had to go and discontinue them. Then I found that Windham Weaponry's A2 stock screws met the spec exactly, then they went out of business. So at this point it appears Colt's through Brownells are the only option... And that's fine if they are now coming with the drain hole and the red Nylok patch.
titsonritz
12-19-23, 13:27
I got a couple of those drain hole-less Colt A2 stock screws from Brownells during that time. They didn't have the red Nylok patch either, but they were a quality screw in every other way. I still sent them back though since $11 per screw is nuts even if they had the drain hole and Nylok patch.
After not having luck with Colt's A2 stock screws through Brownells I found that YHM was selling A2 stock screws which met the spec exactly, then they had to go and discontinue them. Then I found that Windham Weaponry's A2 stock screws met the spec exactly, then they went out of business. So at this point it appears Colt's through Brownells are the only option... And that's fine if they are now coming with the drain hole and the red Nylok patch.
Any idea whether or not the ones from Specialize Armament comes with the red Nyloc patch?
https://www.specializedarmament.com/%E2%80%94-buttstock-fixed-%C2%B7-rifle/butt-cap-screw-m16a2/
Any idea whether or not the ones from Specialize Armament comes with the red Nyloc patch?
https://www.specializedarmament.com/%E2%80%94-buttstock-fixed-%C2%B7-rifle/butt-cap-screw-m16a2/
I haven't ever ordered any A2 stock screws from them. Though I have ordered M4 stock sling swivel screws from them and they were indeed correct (though one of the 3 had obviously been previously installed and removed). I also ordered a single A1 stock screw from them and it was correct, but it was also very odd... It's like they had refinished it and applied their own thread locker patch. The threads were in bad shape and looked like they had been refinished over.
We need a updated chart.
It's funny, the chart is what brought me to M4carbine.net. I was in "US Autoweapons-LGS) in Scottsdale and they had it printed out and said, check this out. It was great for a newbie like me.
PB
It was great for it's time. Let you actually make an apples to apples comparison. At the time "mil spec" was the most abused word in the firearms industry and every manufacturer on that list claimed to make a mil spec rifle.
So, let's go back in history, IIRC the originator of the chart was 'run off' the forum. Curious about the why.
So, let's go back in history, IIRC the originator of the chart was 'run off' the forum. Curious about the why.
Part of the reason might be because he believed the chart made him special forces and he wasn't shy about putting his expertise above anyone.
Honestly I like all three of my PSA uppers on self made lowers. Never had issues with zeroing of optics and irons zeroed better than my old Olympic (yes it was meh). I Have one with a fn crome (20inc), 2 nitrated (16.5 and 10). I will say my FN barrel is by far the most acurate at 100 (just sub MOA). The two nitrate hold maybe 1.5 but odds are thats just as much me. Never messed with PSA lowers but did use the PSA parts kits with the gisleee (i cant think of how to spell it) G2S to build out my lowers. Buffers and tubes are all over the place based on what I could get at the time. I have had and sold Colts, FNs, DPMS, Olympics and bushmasters (pre buyout). All were good but do think my best was FNs. Id rate based on my experience the FN 20inch on par with my old FN (probably case well same barrel and good bolt) the Nitrated a same quality as my older bushmaster and like 2 levels above my Olympic.
We need a updated chart.
What year did the first one come out? There are so many gun brands now it would take some real effort to compile.
Part of the reason might be because he believed the chart made him special forces and he wasn't shy about putting his expertise above anyone.
As I remember he was also a suppressor guy ( I could be wrong, not sure why that comes to mind). But I do remember him being a little crazy, but then I became friends with Iraqgunz and Markm, so I thought it was the norm.:sarcastic:
PB
What year did the first one come out? There are so many gun brands now it would take some real effort to compile.
Pretty sure pre-2011, which was around when I jumped online for the AR platform. It was being referenced at that time.
Yeah, a new one would be nice but it would have to ignore a TON of market players. Basically would be "here's who makes nothing to spec" and just list basically everyone. SOLGW, Aero, Anderson, AndroCorps, etc etc. Mostly because they use rails and no FSBs for their stuff. (Not because the make a bad rifle).
Then, here's the guy's that make a M4 and M16 style, so let's dive into them. Colt, BCM, S&W, PSA, Rock River, etc.
CatBacker88
12-21-23, 09:14
Colt Autism melt down incoming in 5..4..3..2..1…
So, Autism is a joke to you? Cerebral Palsy funny too? There's tons of other issues children have to struggle with for their entire lives, you should look them up and use all of them! You could do a stand up act!
Hammer_Man
12-21-23, 10:01
Nevermind..
So, Autism is a joke to you? Cerebral Palsy funny too? There's tons of other issues children have to struggle with for their entire lives, you should look them up and use all of them! You could do a stand up act!
Damn son….decaf
So, Autism is a joke to you? Cerebral Palsy funny too? There's tons of other issues children have to struggle with for their entire lives, you should look them up and use all of them! You could do a stand up act!
So you probably have somebody in your life that is dealing with a very serious problem and I think if we had to get serious for 5 seconds we'd all wish you the best and you'd have our sympathies if that mattered at all.
But just as serious, take a breath and understand flippant comments on the net directed at nobody specifically are just that and nothing more.
It's like somebody looking at your user and assuming "88" means you are a nazi when it is more likely your birth year or something like that.
There is CLEARLY a distinction between "Colt Autism" and "autism", stop working so hard to be a professional victim.
So what's the deal with the guy who made the chart being kicked off the forum. I remember reading something about it on another site years ago.
Inkslinger
12-21-23, 19:24
So what's the deal with the guy who made the chart being kicked off the forum. I remember reading something about it on another site years ago.
I think his head got too big for his visor.
I think his head got too big for his visor.
That tells me nothing lol.
Found this https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?110598-Banning-of-rob_s/page2
That tells me nothing lol.
Found this https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?110598-Banning-of-rob_s/page2
So I knew Rob personally. I transferred a few guns for him on the cheap and I joined his shooting club. All seemed well and he seemed like a good guy who had done enough research to actually know what the hell he was talking about. He was politically libertarian so he was good to go as far as I was concerned.
Then it seemed like one day out of the blue he started flipping me shit, both on the net and when I was at the range shooting as a paid member of his club. On the net, I was guilty of espousing antiquated information. I wasn't a squared up iso shooter so I wasn't shit. I wasn't rolling a G19 so I wasn't shit. And he made no secret of his contempt for me and my out of date ways.
Not knowing WTF his problem was I tried to make a joke out of it and said he should feel sorry for us old timers who simply don't know all the magic shit he knows. And he actually came back and said he DID feel sorry for me because I was never gonna reach his level of awesomeness or capability. I sat on my hands for a few more pages hoping he might move on or accept the idea that it's possible to be different and still correct. But...didn't happen. There is the Rob S way to hold a gun and anyone who does it in any way different is a ****ing idiot who will forever be a half asser trying to keep up. He also criticized me for not shooting enough, I don't think he was aware that I was a member of four other shooting clubs and his was the furthest from my home, but he thought he was correct and didn't have a problem saying so on an open forum.
It was then I remembered that I often record myself shooting so I can evaluate what I do and what can maybe be improved and I record other shooters when I think I might be able to learn something from them. That is when I realized I had videos of myself and of Rob S shooting the exact same course on the exact same night. Keep in mind this was his shooting club and the course of fire is one he himself set up.
Here is Rob crushing it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9HR_NBOtcD0
Part II: Because you can only have ONE video per post.
This is my old ass with my useless shooting postures failing horribly.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRAZJ2yhjhs
But he's a gun writer so I'll never be able to shoot as good as him. Just ask him.
Clean run on those plates - this thread went places haha
Dang, looks like visor boy is the one that needs some training!
That dude had no business giving anyone shooting advice. Let alone dictating proper form or technique. Wow.
So I knew Rob personally. I transferred a few guns for him on the cheap and I joined his shooting club. All seemed well and he seemed like a good guy who had done enough research to actually know what the hell he was talking about. He was politically libertarian so he was good to go as far as I was concerned.
Then it seemed like one day out of the blue he started flipping me shit, both on the net and when I was at the range shooting as a paid member of his club. On the net, I was guilty of espousing antiquated information. I wasn't a squared up iso shooter so I wasn't shit. I wasn't rolling a G19 so I wasn't shit. And he made no secret of his contempt for me and my out of date ways.
Not knowing WTF his problem was I tried to make a joke out of it and said he should feel sorry for us old timers who simply don't know all the magic shit he knows. And he actually came back and said he DID feel sorry for me because I was never gonna reach his level of awesomeness or capability. I sat on my hands for a few more pages hoping he might move on or accept the idea that it's possible to be different and still correct. But...didn't happen. There is the Rob S way to hold a gun and anyone who does it in any way different is a ****ing idiot who will forever be a half asser trying to keep up. He also criticized me for not shooting enough, I don't think he was aware that I was a member of four other shooting clubs and his was the furthest from my home, but he thought he was correct and didn't have a problem saying so on an open forum.
It was then I remembered that I often record myself shooting so I can evaluate what I do and what can maybe be improved and I record other shooters when I think I might be able to learn something from them. That is when I realized I had videos of myself and of Rob S shooting the exact same course on the exact same night. Keep in mind this was his shooting club and the course of fire is one he himself set up.
Here is Rob crushing it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9HR_NBOtcD0
Holly shit, he burnt that plate rack down. That gave me a good laugh, honestly. How could anyone shoot that bad and be a critic? And everyone has a bad day, but you can't do that and it just be a bad day. Picture/video worth a thousand words.
Thats about how I shot before RDS handguns.
PB
Holly shit, he burnt that plate rack down. That gave me a good laugh, honestly. How could anyone shoot that bad and be a critic? And everyone has a bad day, but you can't do that and it just be a bad day. Picture/video worth a thousand words.
Thats about how I shot before RDS handguns.
PB
The splashes from hitting the rail had me rolling.
Part II: Because you can only have ONE video per post.
This is my old ass with my useless shooting postures failing horribly.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRAZJ2yhjhs
But he's a gun writer so I'll never be able to shoot as good as him. Just ask him.
Nice pistol work. And thanks for the story.
titsonritz
12-22-23, 10:54
I always thought he came off like a shit talking prick, glad to see I was right. Thanks for posting those videos, lol.
titsonritz
12-22-23, 11:03
Here is Rob crushing it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9HR_NBOtcD0
Nice smooth reload, lmfao.
Somebody just post the damn list of what is acceptable in the eyes of the AR Gods.
Somebody just post the damn list of what is acceptable in the eyes of the AR Gods.
This thread is going to go for another 30 pages while that topic gets debated :D
Part II: Because you can only have ONE video per post.
This is my old ass with my useless shooting postures failing horribly.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRAZJ2yhjhs
But he's a gun writer so I'll never be able to shoot as good as him. Just ask him.
Great story and nice run.
I remember Rob S, but I never met him in person. He was still very active here for the first couple years I was on this forum. Honestly I always thought he was bipolar. In one post he would be polite and offer something helpful. Then in the next post he would do a 180 and be a complete douche for no reason at all. And he could be a longwinded douche at that. The one useful thing I remember him saying was stop talking on the internet and go shoot your gun. Looks like he should have taken his own advice.
Dang, looks like visor boy is the one that needs some training!
The important thing is he holds his rifle better than me and he can do that duck walk thing like nobodies business.
Great story and nice run.
Honestly, in that group of experienced shooters I was solidly average. There were a lot of great shooters there. The problem was there was a sub group that were die hard true believers in the religion whatever the new shooting posture / firearm grip was and anyone else doing anything else was heresy and they were gonna screw it up for everyone else.
I remember the night I brought a P7 as my sidearm, because it was something I do regularly carry from time to time. There were people who actually criticized me for shooting a P7 and one guy actually came up to me to complain about how I was holding it. It didn't matter how well I shot it, it didn't matter that I shot it better than some of the people who had acceptable handguns and were holding them in the approved fashion. I was also frequently "that guy" because I'd shoot a MP5 when everyone else had an "group approved" M4.
I also didn't play the game. Everyone else would study the course of fire and mentally run it and formulate a game plan for winning. I'd watch them just back of the firing line with their imaginary handgun walking each stage just like you see most IDPA competitors do. But because I wasn't much into the competition aspect of a shooting club and because I wanted to do more reality based training I made an effort to not "pre run" the course. I'd listen to the course description so that I'd run it correctly and not go left when I was supposed to go right but I'd try not to even look at the actual targets until it came time to shoot.
This meant I was usually 1/3 of the way up from the lowest score, but IMO I was getting more realistic training so who cares. But every time there would be somebody who would come up and say "ya know if you held your gun better your scores would improve." At first I tried to explain what I was doing and why, but then I learned to just not bother.
There was a time in the beginning when I pre gamed my shoot like everyone else and I shot in the top 5, I think I had the third highest score on a stage, but only one person came over to tell me anything like "nice run." And just so there is no confusion, there were a lot of great guys in that club. Probably 50% of them were there to just shoot and they didn't care what you shot, how you held it or what kind of scores you were getting. It was just that group inside the group that I had problems with, but I usually never did fit in with the cliques.
Last time I considered joining a shooting club before leaving Florida the new religion was "engage your safety as much as humanely possible." The guys who have three targets directly in front of them who will shoot Target A, engage their safety, swing to Target B disengage their safety...shoot Target B then engage their safety while they swing to Target C. Keeping in mind Targets A, B and C are no more than 2 feet from each other. The first time I ran a stage and engaged three targets in close proximity without "safetying" between each target I got spoken to about "gun safety." And that was enough for me.
Honestly it was kind of impressive that somebody could shoot accurately and with speed while engaging their safety every single time their firearm came OFF target...but I didn't understand the value of that skill...worried it could become a training scar...and just thought it was a new kind of safety nazi BS. It was also clearly the accepted practice that they expected everyone to work on, so I just didn't join that shooting club.
That's one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard. My safety comes on if my rifle goes down to low ready, but definitely not switching between targets and keeping it pointed downrange. Kinda not surprising though. The firearm world is rife with bad advice and bad tactics. I cringe at a lot of things I've seen on the range and especially at self appointed firearm gurus on YouTube.
titsonritz
12-22-23, 19:19
That's one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard. My safety comes on if my rifle goes down to low ready, but definitely not switching between targets and keeping it pointed downrange. Kinda not surprising though. The firearm world is rife with bad advice and bad tactics. I cringe at a lot of things I've seen on the range and especially at self appointed firearm gurus on YouTube.
Shit, given that above scenario my trigger finger isn’t even coming out of the trigger guard let alone engaging my safety.
Here is Rob crushing it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9HR_NBOtcD0
Wow, the way he talked, I thought he'd be a lot better shooter than that. Normally i'm nothing but positive with almost any shooter out training and trying, but Rob S talked like he was some kind of insane rifle tactician, and that video of his true shooting abilities left a LOT to be desired lol. At first, I liked a lot of what he posted, but then he just kinda went weird and got quickly angry if anyone contradicted his all-knowing wisdom. Thanks for posting Steyer
Last time I considered joining a shooting club before leaving Florida the new religion was "engage your safety as much as humanely possible." The guys who have three targets directly in front of them who will shoot Target A, engage their safety, swing to Target B disengage their safety...shoot Target B then engage their safety while they swing to Target C. Keeping in mind Targets A, B and C are no more than 2 feet from each other. The first time I ran a stage and engaged three targets in close proximity without "safetying" between each target I got spoken to about "gun safety." And that was enough for me.
Honestly it was kind of impressive that somebody could shoot accurately and with speed while engaging their safety every single time their firearm came OFF target...but I didn't understand the value of that skill...worried it could become a training scar...and just thought it was a new kind of safety nazi BS. It was also clearly the accepted practice that they expected everyone to work on, so I just didn't join that shooting club.
That's one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard. My safety comes on if my rifle goes down to low ready, but definitely not switching between targets and keeping it pointed downrange. Kinda not surprising though. The firearm world is rife with bad advice and bad tactics. I cringe at a lot of things I've seen on the range and especially at self appointed firearm gurus on YouTube.
I think the safety on when not on target gets taken out of context by a lot of folks - such as the guys at Steyr's club.
When you are confronted with multiple targets there is no need to flip the safety on as you transition from target to target. However, when moving the safety should be on, and when off target - versus transitioning to another target - the safety should come on.
Kyle Lamb is one trainer who is pretty adamant about this: The safety on your rifle should be engaged every time you come off target. If you don’t have sights on a target your finger should be off the trigger and the safety should be in the “ON” position. A surefire mark of an inexperienced AR shooter is one who doesn’t religiously engage the safety. This is a must! It won’t slow you down, so use it. Left-handed shooters often come up with excuses as to why they can’t use the safety, since it is a little harder to manipulate for the southpaw. If you simply use the knuckle on your index finger to push the safety down you won’t have any issues. This will allow the easy disengagement of the safety and enhance your retention of the carbine since you are not changing your grip substantially. Even better, invest in one of the myriad ambidextrous safety selectors on the market. There are many to choose from, and installation is pretty straightforward. One issue I often encounter with left-handed shooters is the use of a bent trigger finger to engage the safety. Bending your trigger finger to place the carbine on safe is a sure way to have an accident. Keep your trigger finger straight, and use the top of that index finger to sweep the safety back into the engaged position. After running or climbing you lose a little bit of your dexterity. If you have been in a life-or-death situation you will have enough adrenaline in your veins to cause your hands to feel different than normal. These are the reasons I use the safer, straight-finger technique when shooting with the left hand.
I found this quote in the following link because I was too lazy to get my copy of Green Eyes and Black Rifles and retype his thoughts from his book.
Like any tactic you should understand the context of what is being taught and when the tactics should be used. Then make an informed decision on whether to adapt the tactic. I did and that is the way I taught my son's, daughters and grandkids to run the rifle and the shotgun as well as pistols with safeties.
Here is what I taught/teach officers:
OPERATION OF THE SELECTOR (SAFETY)
Instruction on the operation of the safety selectors on long guns is not by any means universal. Some schools of thought would have you engaging the safety between each target of a multiple target drill; other schools of thought may go to the other extreme, never engaging the safety.
Our goal is to make the officer constantly aware of safety and to ensure safe handling of the weapon at all times.
Throughout this course, officers will be required to activate the selector, putting the weapon on safe, whenever:
1. Returning to the ready after scanning for additional threats;
2. Whenever the rifle stock is out of the shooter’s shoulder;
3. Whenever the rifle will be supported by the sling - i.e. during weapon transitions.
4. Before any movement from one position to another. This does not necessarily include movement from standing to kneeling etc. Think of the hard rule as being 'engage the safety if taking steps to another position.'
Officers will be encouraged to activate the safety:
5. During weapon manipulations such as immediate and remedial action. (Note: the AR cannot be placed on ‘safe’ if the hammer is forward – as in a malfunction)
6. Consider engaging the safety whenever reloading. As noted above the safety on an AR cannot be engaged if the hammer is forward, so this is an additional check to make sure the weapon is functional and needs to be reloaded rather than a stoppage remediated.
7. THE SAFETY SHOULD BE DISENGAGED AS THE OFFICER BRINGS THE WEAPON INTO FIRING POSITION AND THE SIGHTS AS ACQUIRED.
Wow, the way he talked, I thought he'd be a lot better shooter than that. Normally i'm nothing but positive with almost any shooter out training and trying, but Rob S talked like he was some kind of insane rifle tactician, and that video of his true shooting abilities left a LOT to be desired lol. At first, I liked a lot of what he posted, but then he just kinda went weird and got quickly angry if anyone contradicted his all-knowing wisdom. Thanks for posting Steyer
That was me too. I assume he's a competent rifle shot, especially at the close ranges we always worked, we never shot anything close to a 100 yard shot because that would have made setting up 3 stages impossible. But given the fact that your carry gun is the one you are most likely to pull and need one day, I was actually surprised that he wasn't a lot better. Especially given the frequent lectures about how the gun he carries is better than yours, the way he holds it is better than yours, the special ammo he uses is better than yours, the way he walks is better than yours, etc. He actually told me I'd be better off relearning to shoot a handgun HIS way because the way I shoot a handgun comes with too many limitations so I would never be capable of shooting a handgun as well as him.
I think the safety on when not on target gets taken out of context by a lot of folks - such as the guys at Steyr's club.
When you are confronted with multiple targets there is no need to flip the safety on as you transition from target to target. However, when moving the safety should be on, and when off target - versus transitioning to another target - the safety should come on.
And I have no problem with any of that, I don't think anyone reasonable does. The only time I might not do it is if I'm taking fire or some other extraordinary condition exists. I think "Boom, boom....safety ON...safety OFF...Boom, boom" people do it to feel more special.
That's one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard. My safety comes on if my rifle goes down to low ready, but definitely not switching between targets and keeping it pointed downrange. Kinda not surprising though. The firearm world is rife with bad advice and bad tactics. I cringe at a lot of things I've seen on the range and especially at self appointed firearm gurus on YouTube.
Honestly, I think it was really nothing more than the cool new dance the young kids were doing. There isn't a whole lot of NEW stuff under the sun when it comes to shooting shit without getting shot. Cooper and crew got most of the heavy lifting done, Jerry took it to jedi levels and the rest was just style points. Costa holds, that weird shit that one guy does at Frontsite (I think it was FS) where he refused to put his shooting hand thumb past the 12 o'clock point of any rifle he's holding and stuff like that are just fine so long as you hit what you shoot at but they don't need to become the New Testament for every other shooter in the world.
I am in no means a trained combat specialist but I always thought that the only safety on your weapon was your finger.
I am in no means a trained combat specialist but I always thought that the only safety on your weapon was your finger.
It's probably the most important one.
But while mechanical safeties shouldn't take precedence over safe handling (muzzle control, trigger discipline), they absolutely have their place, especially with other people in the immediate vicinity. Unintended things happen and mechanical safeties are one more level of prevention that help you not "ooops" a round into your buddy because you had a slip and fall.
When I was briefly shooting with the safety club, I once asked them what I should do if I was shooting a Gustav 45 / Swedish K because it has no mechanical safety. After a bit of confusion somebody gave me some half assed shit about how that wouldn't be a "safe firearm" and they wouldn't allow something like that on their range or in their shooting club. I then asked them why they didn't use the same safety procedure when they were shooting their Glock handguns...and I'm pretty sure that was the last night of shooting with that club.
titsonritz
12-23-23, 02:06
And I have no problem with any of that, I don't think anyone reasonable does. The only time I might not do it is if I'm taking fire or some other extraordinary condition exists. I think "Boom, boom....safety ON...safety OFF...Boom, boom" people do it to feel more special.
I agree, nothing wrong with any of that. All these videos of guys speed engaging their safeties after a string of fire crack me up.
I agree, nothing wrong with any of that. All these videos of guys speed engaging their safeties after a string of fire crack me up.
I always imagined it started with a guy with a severe OCD combined with Tourettes who just mentally could not stop engaging the safety and the people around him went "Heeeeeeyyyyy, he must be some next level Delta dude" and they copied him accordingly.
I will say those guys who cleared the school in Kentucky were definitely SAFETY ON as soon as they cleared a room and moved to the next. They did it probably better than anyone I've ever seen, they did it under "this is real now, we are shooting bad guys" conditions and they managed to still immediately drop the threat without seeming to ever put themselves at undo risk.
Those guys are better at it than I am for certain. I know me...I'd be safety OFF from the time I entered the building and would rely on muzzle control, trigger discipline and target discrimination to keep me from engaging non threats unless I was seriously stacked in with a lot of folks.
…
I will say those guys who cleared the school in Kentucky …
I don’t get this reference…?
titsonritz
12-23-23, 05:34
I don’t get this reference…?
I am wondering if he means the Nashville, TN tranny shooter…?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Zpx-mjyjxCs
CatBacker88
12-23-23, 09:01
So you probably have somebody in your life that is dealing with a very serious problem and I think if we had to get serious for 5 seconds we'd all wish you the best and you'd have our sympathies if that mattered at all.
But just as serious, take a breath and understand flippant comments on the net directed at nobody specifically are just that and nothing more.
It's like somebody looking at your user and assuming "88" means you are a nazi when it is more likely your birth year or something like that.
There is CLEARLY a distinction between "Colt Autism" and "autism", stop working so hard to be a professional victim.
You're right, I do have somebody in my life dealing with a very serious problem. In fact I have four of them, and they will all be dealing with severe autism for the rest of their lives, as will their parents. I have no interest in anyone's sympathy. I'm not a victim, professional or otherwise, they are, and there's nothing funny about their misfortunes. All I can do for them beyond love them and give them what I can, is advocate for Autism awareness and call out asinine remarks wherever and whenever I see or hear one.
bamashooter
12-23-23, 11:22
Originally Posted by SteyrAUG View Post
"So you probably have somebody in your life that is dealing with a very serious problem and I think if we had to get serious for 5 seconds we'd all wish you the best and you'd have our sympathies if that mattered at all.
But just as serious, take a breath and understand flippant comments on the net directed at nobody specifically are just that and nothing more.
It's like somebody looking at your user and assuming "88" means you are a nazi when it is more likely your birth year or something like that.
There is CLEARLY a distinction between "Colt Autism" and "autism", stop working so hard to be a professional victim."
You're right, I do have somebody in my life dealing with a very serious problem. In fact I have four of them, and they will all be dealing with severe autism for the rest of their lives, as will their parents. I have no interest in anyone's sympathy. I'm not a victim, professional or otherwise, they are, and there's nothing funny about their misfortunes. All I can do for them beyond love them and give them what I can, is advocate for Autism awareness and call out asinine remarks wherever and whenever I see or hear one.
I get you passion regarding those afflictions, however, he offered the proverbial olive branch and you spit in his face. Nice.
CatBacker88
12-23-23, 12:07
So you probably have somebody in your life that is dealing with a very serious problem and I think if we had to get serious for 5 seconds we'd all wish you the best and you'd have our sympathies if that mattered at all.
But just as serious, take a breath and understand flippant comments on the net directed at nobody specifically are just that and nothing more.
It's like somebody looking at your user and assuming "88" means you are a nazi when it is more likely your birth year or something like that.
There is CLEARLY a distinction between "Colt Autism" and "autism", stop working so hard to be a professional victim.
Originally Posted by SteyrAUG View Post
"So you probably have somebody in your life that is dealing with a very serious problem and I think if we had to get serious for 5 seconds we'd all wish you the best and you'd have our sympathies if that mattered at all.
But just as serious, take a breath and understand flippant comments on the net directed at nobody specifically are just that and nothing more.
It's like somebody looking at your user and assuming "88" means you are a nazi when it is more likely your birth year or something like that.
There is CLEARLY a distinction between "Colt Autism" and "autism", stop working so hard to be a professional victim."
I get you passion regarding those afflictions, however, he offered the proverbial olive branch and you spit in his face. Nice.
"Stop trying to be a professional victim" is an olive branch? I absolutely appreciate the kindness expressed in the first few lines of that note, and I appreciate your recognizing my passion in advocating for children with Autism. Maybe I've made my point. Maybe I shouldn't have been sarcastic or used the term asinine, and I apologize for that. I just hope everyone on this board are the kind of men who to some degree also advocate for children with neurological disorders, and try not to insinuate there are benign forms of Autism, or hijack "meltdown" as another word for a temper tantrum or excessive arguing or rants from an ordinary adult. I've seen too many meltdowns, some of them resulting in blood, bruises and broken bones from self injuring. I don't think the Colt fans are doing that. Whatever, that's all I got to say about that.
So now we're an advocacy group, unbelievable.
I think the minimum AR I would own for anything serious would be a M&P. And even there I'm taking some chances.
Nothing wrong with PSA, if it's just a hobby gun.
Of course there are people who are spending over $2k on seriously substandard crap grade rifles so hard to say who is more wrong.
I think Steyr is spot on, nothing wrong with them as a hobby gun.
So now we're an advocacy group, unbelievable.
No, we are not. Not on this board.
There are plenty of places for Autism Awareness, and listing it in a sig line seems appropriate if someone is so inclined. However, in the scope of this board, there shouldn't be much room for anything other than firearms outside of the general discussion section.
No room for campaigning for it, and most certainly no room for mockery of it. Colt Autism is not intended as an offensive slur here, its meaning is clearly pointing towards those who are overboard with Colt fanaticism.
I'm not a mod, nor do a speak for the owners of the board. I do hope that I've been around long enough to set the above to rest though. We are all better than this.
I think Steyr is spot on, nothing wrong with them as a hobby gun.
Agreed, and we have seen time and time again where PSA has pumped out an amazing product for shooters at a great price. However, to NOT view PSA in their entirety with their abysmal QC is borderline criminal.
I don't think anyone here would say PSA should outfit a large department with AR15s. Not with the quality and problems that cling to their name. At some point it would be nice to see things change.
I don’t get this reference…?
Crap...Tenn. PD responding to Covenant School shooting.
You're right, I do have somebody in my life dealing with a very serious problem. In fact I have four of them, and they will all be dealing with severe autism for the rest of their lives, as will their parents. I have no interest in anyone's sympathy. I'm not a victim, professional or otherwise, they are, and there's nothing funny about their misfortunes. All I can do for them beyond love them and give them what I can, is advocate for Autism awareness and call out asinine remarks wherever and whenever I see or hear one.
Ok, then just understand NOBODY here is making fun of them.
titsonritz
12-23-23, 14:52
I would, at minimum, rebuild the bolt with trusted parts, replace the carrier key screws, preferably with OCKS stacked with a MOACKS, confirm the barrel but had at least the minimum torque value, inspect & restake the castle nut if needed, drop in an H buffer and replace the FCG with an ALG ACT, BCM PNT, or equal then put 1000 rounds down the tube before trusting a PSA for anything serious.
titsonritz
12-23-23, 14:54
Crap...Tenn. PD responding to Covenant School shooting.
Thought so.
I would, at minimum, rebuild the bolt with trusted parts, replace the carrier key screws, preferably with OCKS stacked with a MOACKS, confirm the barrel but had at least the minimum torque value, inspect & restake the castle nut if needed, drop in an H buffer and replace the FCG with an ALG ACT, BCM PNT, or equal then put 1000 rounds down the tube before trusting a PSA for anything serious.
While totally agree, I have to ask , what's the point at this point? Where's the savings going PSA if this is the minimum, and I hate to bring up Colt, but damn!
I would, at minimum, rebuild the bolt with trusted parts, replace the carrier key screws, preferably with OCKS stacked with a MOACKS, confirm the barrel but had at least the minimum torque value, inspect & restake the castle nut if needed, drop in an H buffer and replace the FCG with an ALG ACT, BCM PNT, or equal then put 1000 rounds down the tube before trusting a PSA for anything serious.
Completely unnecessary.
“Maybe” a springco action, extractor and ejector spring @ 5K (aside from using reg springs for PM)
While totally agree, I have to ask , what's the point at this point? Where's the savings going PSA if this is the minimum, and I hate to bring up Colt, but damn!
Yeah, at that point you are at Colt pricing. PSA is a hobby gun. It's the perfect gun for your kid being introduced to ARs. My cousin bought one just so he could do a cheap .300 blackout for a range toy. There is even some logic that owning a PSA will teach you about ARs as you repair or upgrade it as you go along.
But rebuilding one into a reliable defensive weapon is sort of a fools errand. Even M&Ps are close enough to Colt prices that there is little wisdom in buying a M&P except for those on the most restrictive budgets. Everyone I know who is in that position, I tell them to buy a OEM and some basic budget furniture and upgrade as they are able.
Yeah, at that point you are at Colt pricing. PSA is a hobby gun. It's the perfect gun for your kid being introduced to ARs. My cousin bought one just so he could do a cheap .300 blackout for a range toy. There is even some logic that owning a PSA will teach you about ARs as you repair or upgrade it as you go along.
But rebuilding one into a reliable defensive weapon is sort of a fools errand. Even M&Ps are close enough to Colt prices that there is little wisdom in buying a M&P except for those on the most restrictive budgets. Everyone I know who is in that position, I tell them to buy a OEM and some basic budget furniture and upgrade as they are able.
OEMs are an excellent recommendation, it's surprising to me that LMT, BCM, SOLGW et all, don't offer something similar. I purchased one locally a few years back, I didn't know they existed at the time. I sent the upper to Ken Elmore for the laying on of hands and it now lives by my bed.
Those guys are better at it than I am for certain. I know me...I'd be safety OFF from the time I entered the building and would rely on muzzle control, trigger discipline and target discrimination to keep me from engaging non threats unless I was seriously stacked in with a lot of folks.
That was kind of my point in requiring officers taking my patrol rifle course engage the safety as I did - you likely won't remember to take it off or put it on under stress when you are seriously stacked in with a lot of folks unless you train that way. That old saying you don't rise to the occassion, you sink to your level of training is true in most cases.
At one time I was a big muzzle control and finger off trigger is my safety guy, but to be honest that was primarily because I was a lefty and 870's and cop issue AR's weren't/aren't conducive to easy, fluid safety engagement/disengagement. After I attended a couple of courses which stressed safety engagement and actually became practiced I changed my spiel. Ambi-safeties are much more common now then they were two decades ago, so there is really no reason to not train with the safety.
JMO
I don't think anyone here would say PSA should outfit a large department with AR15s. Not with the quality and problems that cling to their name. At some point it would be nice to see things change.
As often as I must have come across as a PSA fanboi, I agree. I tend to look at things from the perspective that someone who posts regularly or lurks on this board ought to know how to troubleshoot and vet a rifle. That definitely isn't the average LEO, though.
I do think that PSA's QC/basic assembly has been improving and perhaps one day they'll be to that point. If they can do that and maintain their competitive pricing that will be good for a lot of enthusiasts.
That was kind of my point in requiring officers taking my patrol rifle course engage the safety as I did - you likely won't remember to take it off or put it on under stress when you are seriously stacked in with a lot of folks unless you train that way. That old saying you don't rise to the occassion, you sink to your level of training is true in most cases.
At one time I was a big muzzle control and finger off trigger is my safety guy, but to be honest that was primarily because I was a lefty and 870's and cop issue AR's weren't/aren't conducive to easy, fluid safety engagement/disengagement. After I attended a couple of courses which stressed safety engagement and actually became practiced I changed my spiel. Ambi-safeties are much more common now then they were two decades ago, so there is really no reason to not train with the safety.
JMO
Very much a true thing. I worry about the time it might take to truly integrate it and how hard it will be to offset 40+ years of doing it the other way. I also tend to run MP5s with the old SEF "two fingers needed to move this safety" trigger packs and for safe transport it was sometimes easier to just pull the mag and lock the charging handle open.
I think the current generation is going to have an easier time adopting it because they've never known anything other than a M4. And just so we are clear and on the same page, I'm pretty good about going safety ON every time I go low ready and am not currently expecting to engage targets. The main exception is IF I'm running a AUG because that cross bolt safety is BS.
indianalex01
12-23-23, 22:43
OEMs are an excellent recommendation, it's surprising to me that LMT, BCM, SOLGW et all, don't offer something similar. I purchased one locally a few years back, I didn't know they existed at the time. I sent the upper to Ken Elmore for the laying on of hands and it now lives by my bed.
I would not ever mention SLGOW and BCM with LMT. LMT is in another class. They actually build their weapons parts. The other 2 are just parts distributers and parts assemblers. Why do people always try to link these 2 with actual manufacturers….
As far as PSA goes. I find their premium line GTG. Battlefield Vegas says they are solid. I am more of a LMT, DD, Sig guy.
Hammer_Man
12-23-23, 22:57
I would not ever mention SLGOW and BCM with LMT. LMT is in another class. They actually build their weapons parts. The other 2 are just parts distributers and parts assemblers. Why do people always try to link these 2 with actual manufacturers….
As far as PSA goes. I find their premium line GTG. Battlefield Vegas says they are solid. I am more of a LMT, DD, Sig guy.
SOLGW doesn’t build their parts, but they source their components from top of the line suppliers. Everything I’ve used from them has been good to go.
I would not ever mention SLGOW and BCM with LMT. LMT is in another class. They actually build their weapons parts. The other 2 are just parts distributers and parts assemblers. Why do people always try to link these 2 with actual manufacturers….
As far as PSA goes. I find their premium line GTG. Battlefield Vegas says they are solid. I am more of a LMT, DD, Sig guy.
Assemblers who use premium parts can put out a better product than people who roll their own but have shit QC. I have no dog in this fight but FN made a civie M4 and ended up with a hobby rifle, they could have easily given Colt a run for their money (again) if they wanted to.
I think the reason BCM and SOLGW get mentioned with the serious manufacturers is because they source high grade parts which can sometimes be more profitable than fabricating your own.
Part of the reason might be because he believed the chart made him special forces and he wasn't shy about putting his expertise above anyone.
I recall something similar on LightFighter way way back and it didn’t go well. Same concept.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Part II: Because you can only have ONE video per post.
This is my old ass with my useless shooting postures failing horribly.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRAZJ2yhjhs
But he's a gun writer so I'll never be able to shoot as good as him. Just ask him.
Jeez, you look different wearing a suit in your avatar pic :)
Andy
Agreed, and we have seen time and time again where PSA has pumped out an amazing product for shooters at a great price. However, to NOT view PSA in their entirety with their abysmal QC is borderline criminal.
I don't think anyone here would say PSA should outfit a large department with AR15s. Not with the quality and problems that cling to their name. At some point it would be nice to see things change.
Yep, someone that knows a little about ARs can determine how to fix small problems and when to return to PSA for a warranty repair. I have a couple of PSA Freedom ARs because the kits were dirt cheap. They are "good enough" range/loaner guns, partly because I replaced components and took some care when I assembled the kits. Hobby guns.
It would be a nightmare to prepare even 50 PSA carbines for a department and just as much a nightmare for a private owner who is not familiar with the platform.
Andy
I would not ever mention SLGOW and BCM with LMT. LMT is in another class. They actually build their weapons parts. The other 2 are just parts distributers and parts assemblers. Why do people always try to link these 2 with actual manufacturers….
As far as PSA goes. I find their premium line GTG. Battlefield Vegas says they are solid. I am more of a LMT, DD, Sig guy.
Not trying to link anybody bro, anyway, thought you were a Colt guy. Merry Christmas to you and yours.
I'll point out that while RobS did get pissed off, he was never nasty to me, and I had thought the only people who suffered his wrath were the ones who were posting stupid things. That shows you how much I pay attention.
There was certainly merit to his list, and it would be nice to see an updated version. However, being that companies are making purchases from various manufacturers, it would be hard to make an honest and legit "chart".
indianalex01
12-24-23, 11:23
Not trying to link anybody bro, anyway, thought you were a Colt guy. Merry Christmas to you and yours.
I am a Colt, LMT, KAC, DD and Sig guy. BCM did me wrong 2x. Hate them now. Customer service sucks too. Merry Christmas to you and everyone else.
Completely unnecessary.
“Maybe” a springco action, extractor and ejector spring @ 5K (aside from using reg springs for PM)
I would inspect the entire rifle. And at a minimum would replace the gas block, gas tube and use a good BCG/bolt assembly.
I would inspect the entire rifle. And at a minimum would replace the gas block, gas tube and use a good BCG/bolt assembly.
Replace the gas block on a Front Sight Base model?
Replace the gas block on a Front Sight Base model?
Oops! Didn’t notice it was an FSB model.
Hammer_Man
12-25-23, 11:11
I worked the counter at a local gun store for a few months, and where I live there are a lot of “working men” who pay their bills and raise a family, but aren’t wealthy by any means. I tried to sell these guys on the CR6920, but most of them walked out the door with a Ruger, or Smith & Wesson, or RRA, a PSA, or (gasp) an Anderson. If there was a little left over maybe they’d grab a Holosun red dot sight and a couple boxes of ammo. Most of them simply couldn’t justify the $1,200.00 asking price on the Colt. The point I’m trying to make, is that PSA (and other budget brands) is putting defensive tools in the hands of more honest working men because of their pricing, and I’m all for it. The more people we welcome into the 2A community the better.
Edit: Merry Christmas by the way
I worked the counter at a local gun store for a few months, and where I live there are a lot of “working men” who pay their bills and raise a family, but aren’t wealthy by any means. I tried to sell these guys on the CR6920, but most of them walked out the door with a Ruger, or Smith & Wesson, or RRA, a PSA, or (gasp) an Anderson. If there was a little left over maybe they’d grab a Holosun red dot sight and a couple boxes of ammo. Most of them simply couldn’t justify the $1,200.00 asking price on the Colt. The point I’m trying to make, is that PSA (and other budget brands) is putting defensive tools in the hands of more honest working men because of their pricing, and I’m all for it. The more people we welcome into the 2A community the better.
Edit: Merry Christmas by the way
PSA has probably done more to make the AR “common usage” than any other single company. I don’t begrudge anyone buying a rifle that is within their budget.
I worked the counter at a local gun store for a few months, and where I live there are a lot of “working men” who pay their bills and raise a family, but aren’t wealthy by any means. I tried to sell these guys on the CR6920, but most of them walked out the door with a Ruger, or Smith & Wesson, or RRA, a PSA, or (gasp) an Anderson. If there was a little left over maybe they’d grab a Holosun red dot sight and a couple boxes of ammo. Most of them simply couldn’t justify the $1,200.00 asking price on the Colt. The point I’m trying to make, is that PSA (and other budget brands) is putting defensive tools in the hands of more honest working men because of their pricing, and I’m all for it. The more people we welcome into the 2A community the better.
Edit: Merry Christmas by the way
You do understand 99% of the concern is that those good people might one day need to depend on that budget brand and it could fail them. Those new shooters also won't understand (in most cases) how to correct common CQ issues.
You do understand 99% of the concern is that those good people might one day need to depend on that budget brand and it could fail them. Those new shooters also won't understand (in most cases) how to correct common CQ issues.
This wasn't directed at me, but I also used to work a gun counter and frequently ran into the same issue. Sometimes, no matter how much you try to educate a customer and convince them to buy a Colt, SOLGW, BCM, etc., they're simply unwilling or unable to spend the extra money. Often they would accuse me of trying to upsell them because they thought I worked on commission, which I didn't.
On a side note, a good friend of mine who is very well versed in AR's and how to make them run, bought a PSA as an experiment a year or two ago. He ran it exclusively in classes and matches and shot 1000's of rounds through it without malfunction. I know, data point of one, but still. The point is that often these guns run more reliably than we like to give them credit for and their biggest real world issue is that they're overgassed.
There is a standard for a reason, some things may exceed, some things may equal, some things may not. When you avoid a known accepted standard for monetary concerns or whatever, you pay your money and take your chances. Best of luck.
ViniVidivici
12-25-23, 15:21
Meh, they put out some bad apples, but if you're your own gunsmith, and able to check things out thoroughly, and then prove your gear works in extensive live-fire and training, you're GTG.
I think there probably ARE better options for folks who don't know how to work in things. All our PSA stuff does what we need.
Posting because I forgot to add we have one of their EPT triggers in one of the guns, and it's damn nice for a single stage. It's every bit as good feeling as BCM PNT or ALG ACT, from my own subjective feel. I believe they're made by Schmidt.
Meh, they put out some bad apples, but if you're your own gunsmith, and able to check things out thoroughly, and then prove your gear works in extensive live-fire and training, you're GTG.
I think there probably ARE better options for folks who don't know how to work in things. All our PSA stuff does what we need.
Posting because I forgot to add we have one of their EPT triggers in one of the guns, and it's damn nice for a single stage. It's every bit as good feeling as BCM PNT or ALG ACT, from my own subjective feel. I believe they're made by Schmidt.
My smoothest "polished and plated milspec" trigger is a PSA. I have a few of the PSA enhanced triggers and they are not all as smooth, but are OK.
Andy
ViniVidivici
12-25-23, 15:57
Yeah, I had one of the basic PSA triggers in another gun for a while, and though function was fine, it was gritty and creepy as hell. It lives in the spare parts container now.
Meh, they put out some bad apples, but if you're your own gunsmith, and able to check things out thoroughly, and then prove your gear works in extensive live-fire and training, you're GTG.
I think there probably ARE better options for folks who don't know how to work in things. All our PSA stuff does what we need.
Posting because I forgot to add we have one of their EPT triggers in one of the guns, and it's damn nice for a single stage. It's every bit as good feeling as BCM PNT or ALG ACT, from my own subjective feel. I believe they're made by Schmidt.
True, but the standard does not exist for ' you're your own gunsmith". It's for "rack grade " issued weapons that you don't get do anything but qualify with.
Not meant to be an argument my friend, just a discussion. Merry Christmas to you and yours!!
ViniVidivici
12-25-23, 20:46
Oh no friend, not seen as argument at all, and you're 100% correct about said standard.
Hell, even if an agency HAS a good armorer, how much work is he gonna be doing? For this and other reasons, a "plug 'n play" option that's more likely to meet those standards across the board makes more sense.
I like to approach these things like Heinlein's "Fair Witness": I don't know if "PSA is good", I only know that MY PSA stuff is good, thus far, at this time.
Oh no friend, not seen as argument at all, and you're 100% correct about said standard.
Hell, even if an agency HAS a good armorer, how much work is he gonna be doing? For this and other reasons, a "plug 'n play" option that's more likely to meet those standards across the board makes more sense.
I like to approach these things like Heinlein's "Fair Witness": I don't know if "PSA is good", I only know that MY PSA stuff is good, thus far, at this time.
More truth, more witness, more honesty, we are fortunate!!
I went back and re-read the OP. I agree that PSA has improved since 4 or 5 years ago, but Steyr honestly nailed it - they are hobby guns.
My safe currently holds 4 (4!) PSA ARs, all 16" Freedom line nitride, 2 midlengths and 2 carbine gas. One I bought lightly used, 2 were assembled from kits, and one was a daily deal upper mated to a daily deal lower. 2 do not see much range time at all. 3 have PSA enhanced milspec triggers, 1 has a LaRue single stage.
3 have FSBs and Magpul MBUS rears and all 3 zeroed at 50 y/m with reasonable adjustment. One has PSA's MLOK rail and no sights. Upper and lower fit is acceptable, finish is generally good, and staking performed by PSA is acceptable. 3 have been trouble free at the range, but as noted 2 are rarely shot. All seem to be generously but not ridiculously gassed, judging from ejection and recoil.
The railed, carbine gassed, gun simply would not run reliably one day for the owner, my son. He came back from the range and we went over it thoroughly and did not find any problems. The gun has been fine since, so we don't know if the issue was paint, ammo, dirt, or what.
PSA parts that should always be replaced (IMHO): extractor springs, buffer (swap to H1 or H2), and action springs.
Sample of 4 guns, no huge problems but two are rarely shot and only one sees regular range time. I think that lower end ARs tend to be either lightly used or used hard, not a lot of in between.
Andy
P.S. I would be shooting the piss out of one midlength/FSB gun but time constraints and ammo/component costs have prevented it.
I would, at minimum, rebuild the bolt with trusted parts,
Or just buy a kit with the PSA by microbest BCG
replace the carrier key screws, preferably with OCKS stacked with a MOACKS,
See above. But outside of Colt, LMT, BCM, or DD and a few others you should check any BCG for screws and staking.
confirm the barrel but had at least the minimum torque value, inspect & restake the castle nut if needed,
I've had other companies than PSA with under torqued barrel extensions, do you do this on all the others?
drop in an H buffer
Other than Colt and maybe BCM you have to do this on every other large manufacturer as well.
and replace the FCG with an ALG ACT, BCM PNT, or equal
Same deal, you going to do this on all the other manufacturers? PSA offers over a dozen different triggers/fcg from the big names.
I prefer ALG, but I've had service triggers that were quite good from other manufacturers
then put 1000 rounds down the tube before trusting a PSA for anything serious.
This is true for every manufacturer.
I hate coming across as a PSA defender but I think a lot of the comments people are making are disingenuous.
Like the thing about 7075 rifle buffer tubes. From my research only colt and Brownell offer 7705 tubes and both are out of stock.
I'd want one with 7075, but even FN seems to ship them with 6061.
Not that PSA at times has not shipped stuff with poor qc in the past.
I still recommend starting with the 6920 or LMT defender/bcm lower and build the upper you want.
But if you are knowledgeable in selective about what you bought PSA can offer a good value. But I wouldn't buy the $329 kits and expect the above, you'll have to spend a bit more.
Small sample size. I have a couple PSA premium heavy barrel 20” uppers and a couple premium heavy barrel 18”. They run 100% and group as well as my Colts. My experience is only with the premium uppers.
When building a lower I pick very specific parts and prefer SSA-E triggers.
Low speed, old stick in the mud. I can’t tolerate any firearm that does not run 100%.
no matter how much you try to educate a customer and convince them to buy a Colt, SOLGW, BCM, etc., they're simply unwilling or unable to spend the extra money. Often they would accuse me of trying to upsell them because they thought I worked on commission, which I didn't.
That shit applies to everything from Guitars to Car Tires to Wine in a restaurant. If you have a cheap or middle ground option, people will buy it and feel good that they left spending a little less.
I don't know anything specific about PSA. But I do know that when you don't HAVE TO meet a TDP's materials, finish, etc.... You won't. Corners will be cut on things you can't SEE. I can't look at a bolt, barrel or RE and see that it's the correct material. So I buy from Colt or BCM where I know the shit isn't substandard materials or manufacturing.
Didn't PSA used to (or maybe still does) sell rifles/uppers with FN barrels?
That shit applies to everything from Guitars to Car Tires to Wine in a restaurant. If you have a cheap or middle ground option, people will buy it and feel good that they left spending a little less.
I don't know anything specific about PSA. But I do know that when you don't HAVE TO meet a TDP's materials, finish, etc.... You won't. Corners will be cut on things you can't SEE. I can't look at a bolt, barrel or RE and see that it's the correct material. So I buy from Colt or BCM where I know the shit isn't substandard materials or manufacturing.
Agree, looks can be deceiving as you said "can't look at a bolt, barrel or RE and see that it's the correct material". Most people that don't know any better will think if it looks the same it must be the same and that's a very bad assumption to make. I've thrown out and sent back a lot of parts over the years simply because I know what is and isn't crap a lot of times just on how a part looks or feels. Lot's of guys will just blindly assume most things they buy are good to go and are none the wiser. Even harder to know when parts look the same in every way in many cases. They could be good, but buying no name mystery meat parts at bargain bin prices is a good indication that they probably aren't.
Buying a first rifle from a quality name (Colt duh!) will at least give you something that you can compare other parts too so that you can at least sort out obvious garbage random parts that you might buy as you get more into these things.
titsonritz
12-27-23, 16:54
Or just buy a kit with the PSA by microbest BCG
The OP was talking about a $230 upper, I paid $200 for mine. I doubt it is a microbes BCG. I bought it with the intent to make a cut-away so I don’t care, some day I’ll buy one of their $100 lowers and cut them up.
See above. But outside of Colt, LMT, BCM, or DD and a few others you should check any BCG for screws and staking.
I was less than impressed with the staking on DD BCGs, I watch Will Larson restake a couple in his classes. I don’t get too far into the weeds with ARs, mine are Colt, BCM, SOLGW and SIONICS, The best example of staking is SIONICS.
I've had other companies than PSA with under torqued barrel extensions, do you do this on all the others?
See above, I haven’t had an issue with any on mine from those manufacturers, I have replaced some of the barrel nuts to switch handguards and all have been solid. Under torqued barrel extensions typically have been on Nitrided barrels, for the most part I stick chrome line phosphate barrels, my SOLGW 18” SPR being the only exception.
Other than Colt and maybe BCM you have to do this on every other large manufacturer as well.
All my rifles mentioned above came with an H buffer.
Same deal, you going to do this on all the other manufacturers? PSA offers over a dozen different triggers/fcg from the big names.
Yes, most of my triggers are replaced with some form of Geissele. My “budget” trigger is the ACT (or similar) I keep a spare or two around to change out crappy millspec triggers if needed. One of my BCMs still has the original stock trigger which is pre-PNT and probably the best standard milspec spec trigger I’ve felt.
. I prefer ALG, but I've had service triggers that were quite good from other manufacturers
See about, I admit I’ve mostly spoiled myself here. Even my Colts were just ok, the only regular milspec trigger I have left it that BCM mentioned above.
.This is true for every manufacturer.
I’d have no problem trusting a Colt or BCM after a few mags for service just like a Glock…PSA, Bear Creek, Anderson, Del-Ton, Fox Trot Mike,etc not so much. I don’t buy those, my experience is from people bringing them to me to fix or seeing them choke in classes.
I hate coming across as a PSA defender but I think a lot of the comments people are making are disingenuous.
Like the thing about 7075 rifle buffer tubes. From my research only colt and Brownell offer 7705 tubes and both are out of stock.
I'd want one with 7075, but even FN seems to ship them with 6061.
Not that PSA at times has not shipped stuff with poor qc in the past.
I believe even the crappy AR companies are better than they were years ago, but I’m picky when it comes to my guns and stick with a select few or build my own from trusted quality components.
All the ARs I bought came with 7075 REs, that is a prerequisite in by book. Anymore I build using an A5 system, they have all been 7075 as well.
I still recommend starting with the 6920 or LMT defender/bcm lower and build the upper you want.
But if you are knowledgeable in selective about what you bought PSA can offer a good value. But I wouldn't buy the $329 kits and expect the above, you'll have to spend a bit more.
Again the OP was about a $230 uppper and $130 lower, not their “premium” line and IMO rather spending more money on a better PSA I’d rather save a little longer and get Colt OEM.
Colts TDP even has a height measurement for the displacement of staking on carrier key bolts, and their 7075 REs are hammer forged. Again there is a standard.
Yes PSA still does sell AR's and completed uppers using FN CHF barrels. I had a 16" with an FN barrel that ran great. Gave it to my ex so that she had a rifle on hand in case.
Colts TDP even has a height measurement for the displacement of staking on carrier key bolts, and their 7075 REs are hammer forged. Again there is a standard.
Every time I consider a budget AR for "whatever", this is what I come back to. If there was a $1,000 price difference I could understand it, it's why I still haven't snagged a Knights rifle even though I've wanted one for 20 years.
But by the time you upgrade a PSA or other budget price AR, you are almost in Colt territory and the difference is even if you completely swap out the BCG and buffer assembly and order it with a FN barrel you still don't have a known quantity.
Now I've had a Bushmaster in the past, they made their 11.5 "entry model" available long before Colt offered their 6933 without a PD letterhead for purchase. I've also got a Armalite factory SBR because I snagged a LE trade in cheap. I put a lot of rounds through both and ran them suppressed and not a single hiccup, but they were never my "go to" carbine if things started looking spooky.
So long as I use reliable mags they will probably both outlast me and run 100% but they aren't gonna be my "go to" firearm because they still aren't a 100% completely known quantity. When I run a Colt for anything serious, it's one less thing I have to be worried about if they are getting worrisome. And to me that's worth a LOT more than $200 to $300.
My Colt SP1 from 1981 probably has 30,000 rounds through it at this point and I'm still on original parts.
My Colt SP1 from 1981 probably has 30,000 rounds through it at this point and I'm still on original parts.
That’s just cool.
BuzzinSATX
12-29-23, 11:46
You do understand 99% of the concern is that those good people might one day need to depend on that budget brand and it could fail them. Those new shooters also won't understand (in most cases) how to correct common CQ issues.
Same argument could be incorrectly applied towards “training before being allowed to buy”…as in “most new shooters also won’t understand safe/proper/effective/(fill in blank)”
so we shouldn’t let them buy/own a gun.
Most of these AR’s won’t see 300 rounds a year. As long as it’s brought out and a few mags are fired through it to make sure it functions, the large majority of these guns will work out fine.
We can generally assume the cheaper guns won’t last as long, or shoot as tight, or take as much abuse as a proven brand, but certainly for most people’s uses, the Rugers and PSA’s will be adequate for the level on intended use and purpose.
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Same argument could be incorrectly applied towards “training before being allowed to buy”…as in “most new shooters also won’t understand safe/proper/effective/(fill in blank)”
so we shouldn’t let them buy/own a gun.
But my point wasn't they shouldn't be allowed to have them, my point was I worry about them. I also worry about untrained shooters for the same reason but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be allowed a gun.
If it was somebody I cared about, I'd rather see them take their chances with an unproven firearm and no real training than have no chance at all if they needed to defend themselves. But I'd worry about the outcome.
As far as other applications...hobby guns never bothered me. I own an XCR, I know what it is.
BuzzinSATX
12-31-23, 07:29
But my point wasn't they shouldn't be allowed to have them, my point was I worry about them. I also worry about untrained shooters for the same reason but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be allowed a gun.
If it was somebody I cared about, I'd rather see them take their chances with an unproven firearm and no real training than have no chance at all if they needed to defend themselves. But I'd worry about the outcome.
As far as other applications...hobby guns never bothered me. I own an XCR, I know what it is.
I understand what you’re saying but folks are gonna prioritize their lives based on resources, preferences, etc.
I think Mr and Ms “I don’t need a stinking AR-15” are waking up. They see the shitshow that our world is entering another level of chaos, and they are entering the evil black rifle world.
The chances today are still very slim they will ever need it, but if they get to the range a couple times a year and have some fun, we might win a new 2A proponent.
Plus, I do believe the PSA business model, which had a rough beginning, has really started putting out better quality products.
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BuzzinSATX
12-31-23, 07:47
As far as PSA products go, I think their most overlooked long gun, even by them, is the KS-47.
https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-gen2-ks-47-16-carbine-length-7-62x39-1-10-nitride-13-5-m-lok-moe-ept-rifle.html
They come in and out of stock constantly but I suspect that’s because they are more focused on making their AK clones.
I bought one after a neighbor gave me 3K rounds of 7.62*39 he didn’t want to haul back to Cali when he left Texas. I didn’t want an AK and liked that they took AK mags. The one I have one that has been flawless in the first thousand-ish rounds. I get under an inch group with all steel Wolf blasting fodder at 50 yards.
Will it run for 10K rounds? 20K rounds? I have no idea, but I honestly don’t plan to put that many through it. I shoot couple times a month and plan on shooting much more in a few years when I retire, but my long gun cartridge of volume any more is .22LR (I rebuilt a Ruger 10/22 into a tack driver and it’s a freaking hoot) followed by .223. And to complicate things, I’m getting way more interested in accumulating and shooting bolt and lever guns, so my AR’s are kinda dusty.
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I think part of it is that we have reached an apex with technology and manufacturing where even a budget AR is OK for intermittent shooting which is all most are partaking in. I have a friend who enjoys touting Bear Creek upper, which has a few K rounds thought it, and it shoots just fine.
18 years ago, my Stag was "budget" and was nowhere near as good as a current PSA, and cost a few hundred more (market dependent ofc) 10 years before that, my Olympic Arms was hot garbage. The sauce is in the barrel so if they are sourcing from FN, and are competent enough to stake a carrier and pin a gas block, its hard to screw it up these days.
ChattanoogaPhil
12-31-23, 09:45
Same argument could be incorrectly applied towards “training before being allowed to buy”…as in “most new shooters also won’t understand safe/proper/effective/(fill in blank)”
so we shouldn’t let them buy/own a gun.
Most of these AR’s won’t see 300 rounds a year. As long as it’s brought out and a few mags are fired through it to make sure it functions, the large majority of these guns will work out fine.
We can generally assume the cheaper guns won’t last as long, or shoot as tight, or take as much abuse as a proven brand, but certainly for most people’s uses, the Rugers and PSA’s will be adequate for the level on intended use and purpose.
I agree. I got a cheap $400 pencil barrel PSA. Nothing has been done to it other than mounting a red dot and brake to tame it down. Four cases and not a single hiccup. It now resides in the back of the safe not likely to see the light of day anytime soon. It served its purpose. Not every gun in the safe needs to be battle-worthy else suffer lack of sleep in worry.
indianalex01
12-31-23, 10:29
I agree. I got a cheap $400 pencil barrel PSA. Nothing has been done to it other than mounting a red dot and brake to tame it down. Four cases and not a single hiccup. It now resides in the back of the safe not likely to see the light of day anytime soon. It served its purpose. Not every gun in the safe needs to be battle-worthy else suffer lack of sleep in worry.
“Tame it down”. What are you shooting through it to warrant taming it down. The recoil is so light as is…
ChattanoogaPhil
12-31-23, 11:28
“Tame it down”. What are you shooting through it to warrant taming it down. The recoil is so light as is…
My wife is small and not particularly strong. The pencil barrel lighter weight and muzzle device for reduced recoil were both factors for her. Reference post #18 in this thread.
indianalex01
12-31-23, 14:12
My wife is small and not particularly strong. The pencil barrel lighter weight and muzzle device for reduced recoil were both factors for her. Reference post #18 in this thread.
Well if it works for her then cool. I stand corrected
ViniVidivici
01-04-24, 20:13
I continue to be very happy with my 16" PSA bare bones carbine upper.
Ran it today on the usual Aero lower which contains the EPT trigger, and I do truly love it.
Was working a barricade last weekend with one of our rifles that has the PSA premium BCG.
Everything's continued to run 100% as it always has.
I think instead of goin' to Disney World I wanna go to their main store in the Palmetto State! A buddy of mine wen there recently, cool stuff.
BuzzinSATX
03-07-24, 14:04
This Garand Thumb video is pretty good. It is long and lots of time spent emptying mags, but it seemed a fair assessment. I will summarize but it’s worth the watch, even if you FF through the mag dumps.
- Cheap PSA upper with full auto lower.
- Ammo used was AAC 77 gr and the ammo grouping was pretty impressive until barrel was shot out (5K rounds)
- Process was empty three full mags and let gun cool (drill lasted 2 days in winter)
- First failure at a bit over 4K (ejector spring). Barrel was pretty shot out at 5K rounds.
- The point was made that with the barrel shot out and the bolt issues, a person could sent the gun it to PSA an it would be repaired under warranty…but in an end of civilization scenario, that doesn’t help.
- Good analysis on parts by a gun geek who measured internals and scoped barrel.
My biggest takeaways were AAC ammo is very passable and functioned fine and the PSA was probably a 5K round gun. But the reality is if my DD shoots great and I rely on it for HD, why not buy a PSA rifle for range use and drills? I can buy 2-3 PSA’s for 1 BCM. I have both BCK and DD but why not put the miles on the PSA…
https://youtu.be/cHGtjx_2qbQ?si=vFGIggVLeRvCSsic
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How many clicks over did it take to zero your buddy's gun, windage-wise? PSA is notorious for canted FSBs. I’ve got a PSA FSB barrel like that, my only one. Its in a lapped NDS A1 receiver, and I maxed windage without quite getting it zeroed. Its close enough to have fun with at closer ranges, although the rear sight being all the way to one side is visually distracting and requires a bit more effort to line up properly for any sort of precision. What’s odd is, everything looks straight. Once I replace the barrel, that gun will have zero PSA parts left in it.
I’m sure I’ve already mentioned that it has out of spec threads. Shit, I had to return an ejection port door pin there because they forgot to cut the groove for the circlip.
I’m local to them, so even though I fully believe y’all are having good experiences with them, and glad y’all are, I remain skeptical (EDIT: of PSA). Because I actually see a lot of their stuff. I also routinely shoot at their range. (Since they quit asking to see stamps, coincidentally at the same time they started selling NFA items again)
Also, you don’t pay for 4 subforums (4x more than any other manufacturer) full of fawning sycophants on TOS if the product consistently speaks for itself, especially if you already enjoy such a huge chunk of the budget gun market share. You usually pay for that to have control of the narrative.
PSA AR's I've got a few uppers assemblys, barrels, BCG, from them over the years. One of their barrels years ago I kinda done a AR burn down on not the mag dump wise but no cleaning up for thousands of rounds just lubrication to shot that AR's are really reliable with minimal effort and lubrication. The lubrication I used was just 10w30 synthetic oil with few Oz of 2 cycle oil added. It was probably a 5-6 moa after that. But I've got/ had many AR's since 88. My #3 was an Armalite heavy wt mid length heavy as an M16a2 and some. My "Oh S###" one is BCM mid light weight on a Double Star lower. My 2 Colt's set in the safe 90% of the time. But then again I've been using AR's for long time and been working on them since 88. A few uppers I assembled went over to Iraq or A-stan around 05-06 or so they had D.D. barrels a few of my buddies wanted them. I'd not likely choose a PSA upper if I was ramping up to deploy but them days are past for me. Now a home defense situation of short time yes if I've tested it out. Heck afterwards it would be locked up in evidence until at least the case is closed. No need for me to lose a $1000.°° plus rifle and another $500.°° optic or more. Budget vs performance needed. A side note I bought a PSA S.S. mid barrel with FSA to assembly myself a wall hanger AR, I planning on putting wood furniture on with bare aluminum a2 upper and lower.
I'm past running after bad guys with guns so now they have to come to me.
:rolleyes:
Colts TDP even has a height measurement for the displacement of staking on carrier key bolts, and their 7075 REs are hammer forged. Again there is a standard.
1. There has to be a maximum height allowable for the staking displacement. There is only so much room between the top of the carrier key and the bottom of the charging handle. If your staking exceeds that height, it will interfere with the charging handle. That is the same rational for the 0.01" space between the bottom of the stake and the top of the 0.4005" bearing surfaces.
2. You will find the TDP allows for extruded (ASTM B221 or B241) as well as forged (ASTM B247) receiver extensions.
- First failure at a bit over 4K (ejector spring).
That is about as long as the Army expects an ejector spring to last . . .
PSA was probably a 5K round gun.
Just out of curiosity, how long would you expect a Colt or other "better" weapon to last?
Just out of curiosity, how long would you expect a Colt or other "better" weapon to last?
https://slip2000.com/blogs/news/s-w-a-t-magazine-filthy-14
https://www.swatmag.com/article/explosive-conclusion-colt-le6940-saga-ends-17600-rounds/
I've been a long critical of Palmetto States QC and while I think Garand Thumb to often gives out more entertainment value than useful information I will say this underscores what quite a lot of people have said about PSA, and that doesn't just come from the internet boards, but different classes as well as people at the range dealing with issues.
The truth is I really want PSA to be a quality rifle because I really appreciate the company and their willingness to cater to the gun enthusiast first as well as pushing out quite a lot of ARs into peoples hands at a great price helping to undermine the ATF and all the gun grabbers out there.
During acceptance testing of new M4 carbines, they are allowed to fail ejector springs after 3,000 rounds on half the weapons under test, and still get a "PASS".
During acceptance testing of new M4 Carbines, they are allowed to fail ALL of their extractor springs after 3,600 rounds, and still get a "PASS".
Gas rings must last at least 1,200 rounds, for a "PASS".
During extended endurance testing, 36,000 rounds per gun with ten guns, the Army averaged barrel life at 5,800 rounds.
Having looked at many pictures of M4s and M16 parts tested to 6,000 rounds, I can say that nothing on the PSA upper in Garand Thumb's video looks abnormal.
Reports from Henderson Defense indicate PSA bolts give good service and last a long time.
I have finished repairs my Nomex coat, so I will go out on a limb here and state that from all the information I have gathered, I feel an standard sample size of PSA Carbines would successfully pass MIL-DTL-71186B acceptance.
During acceptance testing of new M4 carbines, they are allowed to fail ejector springs after 3,000 rounds on half the weapons under test, and still get a "PASS".
During acceptance testing of new M4 Carbines, they are allowed to fail ALL of their extractor springs after 3,600 rounds, and still get a "PASS".
Gas rings must last at least 1,200 rounds, for a "PASS".
During extended endurance testing, 36,000 rounds per gun with ten guns, the Army averaged barrel life at 5,800 rounds.
Having looked at many pictures of M4s and M16 parts tested to 6,000 rounds, I can say that nothing on the PSA upper in Garand Thumb's video looks abnormal.
Reports from Henderson Defense indicate PSA bolts give good service and last a long time.
I have finished repairs my Nomex coat, so I will go out on a limb here and state that from all the information I have gathered, I feel an standard sample size of PSA Carbines would successfully pass MIL-DTL-71186B acceptance.
So let me start by agreeing with you on your points, I have gone through the MIL-DTL-71186B, and I think that the PSA GT tested would have passed said tests, but I think a lot of brands would also have passed said testing quite easily. What the rifle tested doesn't do is exceed those standards, where as the rifles above (My posts on EAG testing a BCM Middy and a 6940) and many others seem to exceed those limits quite easily. I say this because the MIL-DTL-71186B keeps in mind that there is a logistical and personnel component of the military that is there to service said weapons, and I as a civilian (Prepper, Armed Prepared Citizen, whatever) doesn't have that support component. I didn't even need to change my gas rings at 6k rds on my 2012 DD V5 but just thought I should anyway.
I would say that a PSA is a great force multiplier and I would rather have a neighborhood with 10 people with a PSA rifle then 2 with Knights and the 8 with some combination 870's and Ruger American's, but for my piece of mind I would rather go with something that is more proven personally.
That is about as long as the Army expects an ejector spring to last . . .
Just out of curiosity, how long would you expect a Colt or other "better" weapon to last?
First let me thank you for your contributions, I look forward to them, and appreciate them. I'm not engaged in abusive conditions but I expect my Colts to last at least as long as the protocols specified. In other words, until the cows come home.
So let me start by agreeing with you on your points, I have gone through the MIL-DTL-71186B, and I think that the PSA GT tested would have passed said tests, but I think a lot of brands would also have passed said testing quite easily. What the rifle tested doesn't do is exceed those standards, where as the rifles above (My posts on EAG testing a BCM Middy and a 6940) and many others seem to exceed those limits quite easily. I say this because the MIL-DTL-71186B keeps in mind that there is a logistical and personnel component of the military that is there to service said weapons, and I as a civilian (Prepper, Armed Prepared Citizen, whatever) doesn't have that support component. I didn't even need to change my gas rings at 6k rds on my 2012 DD V5 but just thought I should anyway.
I would say that a PSA is a great force multiplier and I would rather have a neighborhood with 10 people with a PSA rifle then 2 with Knights and the 8 with some combination 870's and Ruger American's, but for my piece of mind I would rather go with something that is more proven personally.
nailed it
BuzzinSATX
03-09-24, 07:58
So let me start by agreeing with you on your points, I have gone through the MIL-DTL-71186B, and I think that the PSA GT tested would have passed said tests, but I think a lot of brands would also have passed said testing quite easily. What the rifle tested doesn't do is exceed those standards, where as the rifles above (My posts on EAG testing a BCM Middy and a 6940) and many others seem to exceed those limits quite easily. I say this because the MIL-DTL-71186B keeps in mind that there is a logistical and personnel component of the military that is there to service said weapons, and I as a civilian (Prepper, Armed Prepared Citizen, whatever) doesn't have that support component. I didn't even need to change my gas rings at 6k rds on my 2012 DD V5 but just thought I should anyway.
I would say that a PSA is a great force multiplier and I would rather have a neighborhood with 10 people with a PSA rifle then 2 with Knights and the 8 with some combination 870's and Ruger American's, but for my piece of mind I would rather go with something that is more proven personally.
I also agree with this post. Well said
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BuzzinSATX
03-09-24, 08:03
That is about as long as the Army expects an ejector spring to last . . .
Just out of curiosity, how long would you expect a Colt or other "better" weapon to last?
Understood.
I’m not one of the “Colt” fans…I don’t own one but nothing against the guns. I’m not a fan of the prior Colt company…no opinion on how CZ merger will work but I am optimistic.
Based on my previous experience and research, I would expect a barrel to last and give decent service beyond 10K
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Fully agree with the positive vibes about PSA arming the masses. Its hard to find a parking lot in my home AO without a dozen PSA stickers, and there is a heartwarmingly high rate of firearm ownership in this area. A well-armed society.
Lysander, my skepticism toward their rifles isn’t that none of them work right. Its that they don’t seem concerned about putting out bad ones alongside the good ones. Garand Thumb is a social media “influencer”, which is code for “freelance guerrilla marketer”. I suspect that he has cost tiers of overtness, or not, given that rifles tend to get good reviews, but his declared ads tend to be for less expensive, tangentially related things. If he received a perfect specimen, that would be no surprise. Though, they don’t seem to know what to look for when cherrypicking sometimes either, such as the AK that shit the bed with TFB, got fixed, came back, still wouldn’t run right, so the ammo got blamed. Meanwhile, I’ve put a case of that exact Ukrainian ammo, produced in the same year, through an actual Russian gun with zero stoppages, alongside a couple cases of Russian stuff. In poor conditions. With mags of varying quality.
And when they make a mistake, they try to bubba it instead of scrapping parts. A great example would be the feedramps on their 9mm Colt mag lowers. They drilled the pinhole on at least some, if not all, .061” too distal from the ramp. Instead of tossing those ramps, they put an L-shaped aluminum shim beneath them, and they simply sit that much higher. Easy solution, right? Wrong. You cannot attach an upper with a bolt installed before first grinding, filing, and whatnot…..so they sold them as stripped lowers, knowing that a percentage of them would never get assembled anyway. Easy for them to know with their business model, which is also one of the ways they know exactly what ammo their customers use.
ChattanoogaPhil
03-09-24, 11:31
For the purposes of a range rifle... I suppose if I lived 100 miles away from a shooting range or only had a handful of days per year to shoot, then the potential of a QC issue to arise and ruin my day might be worthy of consideration. However, I'm retired and built my home close to the club so have no reason to fret over such things.
The one PSA I have went through four cases of M193 without a hiccup. I think I'll have it engraved MIL-DTL-71186B.
Understood.
I’m not one of the “Colt” fans…I don’t own one but nothing against the guns. I’m not a fan of the prior Colt company…no opinion on how CZ merger will work but I am optimistic.
Based on my previous experience and research, I would expect a barrel to last and give decent service beyond 10K
To be fair, the PSA barrel tested was subjected to a succession of mag dumps, three at a time, then allowed to cool, then rinse and repeat. That will shorten barrel life.
SUSTAINED RATE OF FIRE FOR THE M16 SERIES RIFLES AND M4 SERIES CARBINES IS 12-15 ROUNDS PER MINUTE. THIS IS THE ACTUAL RATE OF FIRE THAT A WEAPON CAN CONTINUE TO BE FIRED FOR AN Indefinite LENGTH OF TIME WITHOUT SERIOUS OVERHEATING.
71483
https://www.psmagazine.army.mil/News/Article-Display/Article/3389878/m4-and-m16-series-rifles-only-you-can-avoid-a-cook-off/
To be fair, the PSA barrel tested was subjected to a succession of mag dumps, three at a time, then allowed to cool, then rinse and repeat. That will shorten barrel life.
SUSTAINED RATE OF FIRE FOR THE M16 SERIES RIFLES AND M4 SERIES CARBINES IS 12-15 ROUNDS PER MINUTE. THIS IS THE ACTUAL RATE OF FIRE THAT A WEAPON CAN CONTINUE TO BE FIRED FOR AN Indefinite LENGTH OF TIME WITHOUT SERIOUS OVERHEATING.
71483
https://www.psmagazine.army.mil/News/Article-Display/Article/3389878/m4-and-m16-series-rifles-only-you-can-avoid-a-cook-off/
Yet, everyone needs their silencer to survive 33 cyclic mag dumps in a row for some reason.
With OEM 1&2 Colts available for $750 & less, I still just don’t understand why people even consider anything less.
With OEM 1&2 Colts available for $750 & less, I still just don’t understand why people even consider anything less.
Budget...a complete PSA lower for under $150 is affordable for some people. I have a Stealth complete lower that I paid $109 for a few years ago that I have as a spare.
With OEM 1&2 Colts available for $750 & less, I still just don’t understand why people even consider anything less.
agree
why take the chance with PSA qc and track record.
With OEM 1&2 Colts available for $750 & less, I still just don’t understand why people even consider anything less.
This. But then OMG gummint profile, carbine gas, the f***ed up markings, etc etc.
This. But then OMG gummint profile, carbine gas, the f***ed up markings, etc etc.
I prefer carbine, works in all environments regardless of temp.
I prefer carbine, works in all environments regardless of temp.
I have nothing else.
I have nothing else.
I only own Colt, LMT, KAC, and CA now and all but the Colts are Mid Length/Rifle Length. The Colt is the one I'd grab if I have to take one only
I'm glad PSA is making shooting sports less of a spend barrier to entry. In a representative system, it will be useful.
If their customers outpace the capability of the wares, it's an easy push pin upgrade.
A few years ago i made a post about BCM barrel accuracy. Long story short in that post I shot my Colt 6920 for groups using American Eagle 55 grain ball. It shot a 1.66 MOA 5 shot group. It averages more like 2 MOA. At that time the rifle had roughly 13k rounds through it. It still shoots roughly the same at about 15k rounds. I haven't grouped it on paper recently, but it still hits what I aim at.
Recently picked up an 11.5 PSA upper for 219.00. I believe the rail is an older model with a flared out section over the barrel nut. Big fan! (https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-11-5-5-56-nato-1-7-nitride-10-5-lightweight-m-lok-upper-without-bcg-or-ch.html) Slapped a MicroBest BCG and a BCM charging handle I had laying around into the upper and took her out this morning. The upper went together nice and tight on my Sionics lower. Put a couple hundred rounds of 62gr PRVI through it with nice little brass piles at the 4 o’clock. Zero issues.
I had read from a lot of people to make sure the rail was tight as they had had theirs come loose. Mine was solid, and perfectly lined up with the upper.
Overall pleased, and look forward to shootin the shit out of this thing. Will have a suppressor on it next time!
PSA offers some of the absolute lowest prices on ARs, and for all of the reports of folks ending up with lemons, the ratio of satisfied customers seems to by higher. Of course, this is where someone is likely to make some sort of ignorant comment consisting of rude presumptions of those who purchase budget-priced ARs, but I've read no shortage of positive feedback from those who own multiple ARs of varying degrees of quality, often times with PSA still receiving praise despite the purchaser clearly possessing an eye for quality based on their other ARs.
I believe there are simply a lot of folks who aren't quite as satisfied or confident in their decision to purchase a high-end AR as they let on, so they feel the need to reassure themselves that their money was well spent by denigrating PSA and dismissing their ARs as complete junk because even the idea that an otherwise adequate, entry level AR could be had for so cheap when they spent upwards of a grand on their AR upsets them.
I almost bought a PSA Upper/Lower during a Sale last Summer, as the allure of building a complete AR for $329 was undeniable, but ultimately I decided to spend a couple hundred more on a police trade-in M&P15X. I think I made the better decision, but I'm open to the possibility that I might have been able to get a PSA of equal or better quality for less. I couldn't say for sure unless I had a time machine, but nevertheless, I'm happy with what I received.
ViniVidivici
04-21-24, 12:07
I'm happy with the PSA BCG in one of my guns I ran this weekend that ran like a sewing machine, as usual.
Diamondback
04-21-24, 13:38
One other thing to note re PSA, there may have been some "cross-traffic" improving their standards after buying NoDakSpud and making it the nucleus of H&R 2.0 - if they're drawing from the same parts and supplier pools, making a play for the higher-end collector market could easily have forced improvement on the budget models too. (Like how they now heavily advertise Toolcraft bolts on many of their BCG's.)
When I had one of the last orders out the door at NDS, IIRC Harlan told me that Mike was expecting to really crack the whip and try to bring PSA up to NDS standards rather than let his brand get dragged down to theirs.
It seems as though the more time passes, the better the market for ARs becomes. It used to be pretty well accepted that Colt was the absolute bare minimum for a reliable, dependable AR, and for good reason, but the more time passes, the less valid the sentiment has become. Nowadays Colt isn't the first nor the last name in the AR market.
Personally, I feel like it has a lot to do with the AR Community helping to raise public standards for quality, resulting in a higher demand for ARs of better build quality. Rob_s' old Chart became a sort of benchmark for AR manufacturers, and as a result the Army's TDP went from being the guidelines for a top-of-the-line AR to the standard.
Furthermore, as time went buy, more data was collected, thus resulting in a better understanding of what those specifications were actually for, when/where/why they were implemented in the first place, and which of them are actually relevant for civilian legal semiauto only ARs, so even those which didn't quite meet TDP Specs weren't automatically dismissed as garbage by the greater AR community, and suddenly 4140 CMV Nitrided Barrels weren't so bad anymore.
So higher standards and better understanding collided leading to the market as we know it today, where the Colt LE6920 is no longer the bare minimum, much less standard by which all other ARs were measured against, in fact the M4A1 is in many circles considered to be outdated, so there's less TDP pandering to hold the market back or force stagnation, because as relevant as the standard set forth by the TDP remain, folks will typically agree that non-standard deviations from the TDP such as Mid-length gas systems and free-floated rails have some advantages over the TDP-spec Carbine Length gas systems and drop in KAC quadrails.
I think that if anything the Army's adoption of the SIG MCX Speer as the new M7 Rifle was also beneficial towards the AR Market, as it not only drove away the wannabe Commandos who assert that whatever the Army has is the best with their appeals to authority, but along with them the notion that deviation from the TDP only resulted in a product of inferior quality.
Gunpartpicker
04-21-24, 17:27
I have seen some of the return rate data for other brands ranging front defects to issues to customers just not happy with what the purchased. PSA has had some of the lowest return rates for brands in that category of price.
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