View Full Version : POF and ZRO Delta Rifles
So, my agency has a long standing history of making terrible decisions when it comes to purchasing patrol rifles. It started with buying about 80 over a 7 year period Rock River Arms 10.5" rifles starting about 12 years ago. I tried for years to to get them to by better quality rifles but the lead firearms instructor at that time was not willing to change his mind. When a new lead firearms instructor took over, I tried to get him to switch to BCM or Sons of Liberty Gunsworks but he decided to go with Lead Star. Those have proven to be decent rifles but now Lead Star is out of business so he is looking at different rifles. He has asked my opinion about the POF Renegade and the 415. He also is looking at a local company called ZRO Delta. I have no experience with either of these brands of rifles. I looked at the websites but they don't have many details about the specs of there rifles. Does anyone have any experience with either company about the quality of their rifles?
ZRODelta is a couple hours from me in NC. They purchased Warsport and (or merged with) Alamo 4 Star. I believe they own US Optics.
I have observed that they seem to market to departments.
My thought without experience:
I want them to be good and successful. So I’ll start there. When I last looked, I believe UnbrandedAR had an address equal to or adjacent to ZRODelta. I’m not going to doublecheck that, but I was comparing PeaceGeek.net, UnbrandedAR, and ZRODelta locations last year. UnbrandedAR seems to be budget oriented, and I have read online about some challenges with their components. PeaceGeek sells their blems.
The bigger question is why they wouldn’t consider BCM, SOLGW, or Sionics. It seems like SOLGW is doing great on the pseudo-innovation side of things (nothing really new, but creative applications) but pricing is no longer any better than other good brands.
Sionics seems like the dark horse, but they also (rightly) charge for what you get. If he wants some Sam’s Choice offbrand, Sionics might be low key enough to get past him.
Personally, I wouldn’t touch POF for anything that needs long term support. Their unfortunate leadership turnover needs to be a few years of growth in the past until I would change my mind there.
Do you remember "the list"? I had to make up a list for my department when I heard they were going to start looking at AR15s. The primary body of firearm instructors and armorers would NOT have any say, it would be up to one person. Anyway, so I made up a listing of what was important. Companies that met all the checked boxes were eventually (supposedly) considered, and then a decision was made which of course went to the cheapest possible that met standards. The thought being that it is more important to have guns in the hands of patrol, than it is to have long guns in the hands of only a small portion.
My ramblings above are not to complain about the department, but rather, to ask you to consider making a list of things you find important and be able to state why they are important. Although we didn't get the AR15s that I could and should (IMHO) have gotten us, because of the list and me being able to justify why, we were able to get something better than what we would have gotten.
ZRODelta is a couple hours from me in NC. They purchased Warsport and (or merged with) Alamo 4 Star. I believe they own US Optics.
I have observed that they seem to market to departments.
My thought without experience:
I want them to be good and successful. So I’ll start there. When I last looked, I believe UnbrandedAR had an address equal to or adjacent to ZRODelta. I’m not going to doublecheck that, but I was comparing PeaceGeek.net, UnbrandedAR, and ZRODelta locations last year. UnbrandedAR seems to be budget oriented, and I have read online about some challenges with their components. PeaceGeek sells their blems.
Yes, they have a nice little piece of the AR pie.
In dealing with departments, it is often helpful to talk to other local agencies or the state to see what they got and why they went with them. In some cases it could be as simple as a department has a bunch of cool older guns to trade in, so they have a lower overall purchase price with a vendor. Think about the departments that have old M16s, Tommy guns, MP5s or even BARs. The preban guns sitting in the locker can be worth quite a bit, the key is to know what you have and what its worth. Vendors are out to make money, and its hard to blame them.
I’ll never understand why the people who make these decisions seem to always gravitate towards fly by night manufacturers who almost assuredly won’t exist a few years after purchase. There are numerous vetted manufacturers who can provide solid duty rifles with full service and support yet those are almost always bypassed for XYZ tactical brand who just popped up and won’t be around in 3 years.
I’ll never understand why the people who make these decisions seem to always gravitate towards fly by night manufacturers who almost assuredly won’t exist a few years after purchase. There are numerous vetted manufacturers who can provide solid duty rifles with full service and support yet those are almost always bypassed for XYZ tactical brand who just popped up and won’t be around in 3 years.
It is very frustrating. Three years ago I sat down and showed the guy making decision the specs for SOLGW rifles. I had contacted them and was given a quote on a basic patrol rifle and was only $35 more the Rock River Arms rifles we had been using. He met a guy that was working for Lead Star and decided to purchase those rifle instead. Now here we are a couple years later, Lead Star is no more, and we will probably make the same mistake again. I honestly think the reason we didn't go with SOLGW was because it was my idea and not his. To most of the people that make these decisions a rifle is a rifle, they don't have any idea what is quality and what is junk.
titsonritz
12-24-23, 15:13
It is very frustrating. Three years ago I sat down and showed the guy making decision the specs for SOLGW rifles. I had contacted them and was given a quote on a basic patrol rifle and was only $35 more the Rock River Arms rifles we had been using. He met a guy that was working for Lead Star and decided to purchase those rifle instead. Now here we are a couple years later, Lead Star is no more, and we will probably make the same mistake again. I honestly think the reason we didn't go with SOLGW was because it was my idea and not his. To most of the people that make these decisions a rifle is a rifle, they don't have any idea what is quality and what is junk.
Did you tell him about their replacement plan?
ETA:
https://sonsoflibertygw.com/duty-use-replacement/
If you can't get them to buy Colts, do everything in your power to get them to buy S&W M&Ps. Stress the M&P is the "military/police" rifle.
titsonritz
12-24-23, 15:48
Sionics seems like the dark horse, but they also (rightly) charge for what you get. If he wants some Sam’s Choice offbrand, Sionics might be low key enough to get past him.
SIONICS made their inroads to the AR market by supplying LE and have very successful at it.
The first minute of this 7 year old video has a list of departments that use their rifles…
https://www.google.com/search?q=sionics+weapon+systems&client=safari&sca_esv=593473706&hl=en-us&biw=414&bih=714&tbm=vid&ei=A6SIZbvbK7n10PEPhqGn4As&oq=sionics%C2%A0&gs_lp=EhBtb2JpbGUtZ3dzLXZpZGVvIglzaW9uaWNzwqAqAggDMgIQKTILEAAYgAQYigUYkQIyERAAGIAEGIoFGJECGLEDGIMBMgsQABiABBiKBRiRAjILEAAYgAQYigUYkQIyCxAAGIAEGIoFGJECMgUQABiABDIFEAAYgAQyBRAAGIAESOBGUJwYWNgmcAB4AJABAJgBpgGgAfsJqgEEMC4xMLgBAcgBAPgBAYoCEG1vYmlsZS1nd3MtdmlkZW_CAggQABiABBiiBMICBRAhGKsCwgIFECEYoAHCAggQABgWGB4YCsICCxAAGIAEGIoFGIYDiAYB&sclient=mobile-gws-video#fpstate=ive&ip=1&vld=cid:6df71110,vid:lGasCGcP7TY,st:0
Their LE program
https://sionicsweaponsystems.com/sionics-law-enforcement-program/
Stay away from the 415. Our SWAT team ran them for a few years. POF is local and provided exceptional service. If a guys gun went down he could drive to the shop and get it fixed. Weekends and nights too.
However the rifles started going down a lot. The piston system just wasn't a robust system.
Did you tell him about their replacement plan?
ETA:
https://sonsoflibertygw.com/duty-use-replacement/
Yes I did, it was one of the major reasons I push SOLGW. Quality rifles, great service and replacement program, and only $35.00 per rifle more than the piece of crap RRA rifles. Ultimately it didn't matter, I was told they were too expensive.
Stay away from the 415. Our SWAT team ran them for a few years. POF is local and provided exceptional service. If a guys gun went down he could drive to the shop and get it fixed. Weekends and nights too.
However the rifles started going down a lot. The piston system just wasn't a robust system.
Thats good information, thanks.
Yes I did, it was one of the major reasons I push SOLGW. Quality rifles, great service and replacement program, and only $35.00 per rifle more than the piece of crap RRA rifles. Ultimately it didn't matter, I was told they were too expensive.
Can you guys offer to pay the difference out of pocket?
Can you guys offer to pay the difference out of pocket?
It was never an option. I think ultimately it came down to the guy in charge wanted it to be his idea. He didn't want to share the credit. The Lead Star rifle he went with have performed well, but no longer an option. Now a new guy is in charge and has somehow decided on these two brands. He has asked for opinions which I have given but as before they really don't want my opinion. They either want me to get on board with their ideas or keep mu mouth shut. At this point, these are our two options. I have no personal knowledge on either of these to brands and was hoping someone did.
titsonritz
12-25-23, 10:59
Is using a personally owned weapon an option?
If you can't get them to buy Colts, do everything in your power to get them to buy S&W M&Ps. Stress the M&P is the "military/police" rifle.
So my neighbor has the M&P Magpul Mid-length (Except all the MAGPUL markings were left off) they issued to him and I set him up optics, a light and a BCM Comp years ago and that wasn't the worst AR I've ever had to deal with. Not by any means saying it would be my first choice, but I do understand issued gear is issued gear.
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