So what about Iraq

[Voodoochild]

Looks like it will be getting nastier as time goes on. I see a big car bombing happened today killing at least 100+. Sunni vs Shiite(not how you spell it but oh well) Looks like it might be heading towards civil war almost like Lebanon was back in the 80's and might be again if Hezbollah has their way. It is a damn shame to since or fighting men and women are over there with really no direction.

What say you all especially those who have been there and done that (even you dirty security contractors:D )

[Wayne Dobbs]

I just got back from a 25 month contract there where I was a Police Trainer to the Iraqi Police Service. I don't think I can adequately cover the topic in a forum post, but I have learned or confirmed some things from my very "interesting" experience there.

1. Not everybody deserves, desires or can handle a truly democratic form of government. It takes educated, interested and committed citizens for a successful democracy, which should be a warning to all of us here in the US.
2. Our founding fathers were so smart to keep government and religious issues separate.
3. Some cultures and populations are just inherantly stupid and lazy and refusal to face those facts will horribly frustrate all involved.
4. Handing over the reins of government to those lazy, stupid and corrupt Iraqis before confirming that competent and reasonably honest personnel were in place to run that government will likely be the action that history will judge as our undoing in that place.
5. The systematic practice of avoiding casualties by "hunkering down" instead of INFLICTING casualties on the terrorists will doom our efforts there and make the casualties we do suffer to be a waste of our troops' lives for no purpose.
6. Extremist Islamic factions (and by extension, the moderate ones who won't stand and oppose the radicals) intend to destroy us and subjugate us in the West. They are serious and they are amongst us. We will fight this war the rest of our lives and our kids' lives. If we don't fight it, we will LOSE our civilization as we know it.
7. Freedom and our way of life aren't free. It costs dearly and if we don't pay that bill each and every day, we are finished. Love and appreciate your country and spend part of each day fighting for it. Hold your government responsible each day in some way. Get involved and stay involved. Failure to do so will produce something we don't want to see...

[Al U. 5811]

+1 to what Wayne said.

From what I saw they don't REALLY give a shit about Democracy or most personal freedoms. They are more intersted in being Muslim and spreading that shit around. For the most part they would rather live in the stone age but with cars and cell phones. Oh and do they love porn and booze. From MY experience they are the most two faced group of people I will ever encounter (I've never been to D.C.). Their "society" will never be ours. You can bitch, piss, and moan all you want about some of the shit that goes on here at home, but spend a few months, or like Wayne a couple years, in that ****ed up place and you will kiss U.S. soil when you return. This is what we have. If you don't like it, do something about it in whatever little way you can. If not, join them.

S/F

Al

[Voodoochild]

Yeah it is definitely a ****ed up place. I see where there were Sunni's burned alive outside a Mosque yesterday what a ****ed up place. So far it looks like the only group of people over there worth a shit are the Kurds you never hear about them pulling that shit. They seem pretty civilized I know a couple of people on here have been there and done that as either .Mil or Security Contractors it would be nice to her their perspective.

[Striker5]

Wayne Dobbs is right on the money. My first tour was the invasion and I only talked to Iraqis when I was telling them to put up their hands or screaming at them to get away from my vehicle. My second tour (OIFIII) I interacted quite a bit w/ locals but they were all bedouin out in western-central Anbar (aka the moon w/ high temperatures). The bedouin were shifty, but they didn't care about Saddam or the US or anybody. As far as I could tell, they just wanted to molest their sheep in peace.

My few interactions w/ mainstream Iraqis and the info from my buddies that were in other units and other places runs along the lines of Mr. Dobbs' comments. It is high blasphemy and political correct heresy, but the bald fact is that the Arabs are lazy, corrupt, largely incompetent and operate within culture that is all about who your family is, and not about your personal abilities or attributes. There are exceptions to the rule, of course and I worked with one translator that was particularly competent and fearless. These people can have a democracy but we will have to largely rewire their culture before that happens and I wonder how long that will take.

I believe they want the peace and stability and the freedom of a democracy. The $64000 question is whether they are willing to work for it. The saddest thing to me is that the gutsy ones willing to hang it out for their country are swamped by the criminals and religious nuts on one side and the docile cowardly sheep on the other. I want to win from the bottom of my heart (the idea of slinking out of the area in front of Arabs makes me want to vomit), but I really can't see one - America being what it is now.