View Full Version : M&A & LMT ???
I read on M&A's website that LMT does their upper barreled assembly manufacturing and assembling; it this true? I'm pretty convinced because I've read it in writing; but seeing it in writing doesn't always mean that is so. If LMT does make M&A's stuff; is it the same LMT quality that LMT puts on their own label? Here is what I found on their site :
About M&A Parts, Inc.
M&A Parts uses only the finest quality chrome-moly and stainless steel blanks available to manufacture our barrels. We feel this is crucial: we won't sell-out our customers or ourselves to save $20. We proudly use both Wilson Arms Match Grade and Mike Rock Premium barrel blanks.
Our blanks are then sent to a current Military Contractor with 23 years of experience in the manufacturing of barrels, upper receivers, as well as numerous other components.
Once a barrel blank has reached the contractor it is rifled utilizing the "Button Broach" technique and forwarded to be "Stress Relieved". These procedures have been implemented to ensure that the most stringent specifications and guidelines are being met. The same meticulous care is given throughout the 5.56 NATO Chambering and Crowning processes to promote the finest accuracy and reliability. The barrels are then finished with a Magnesium Phosphate Coating adhering to Mil-Spec guidelines to prevent rust and corrosion. The highest measures of quality control are implemented to ensure no variance from barrel to barrel, or lot to lot.
LMT (Lewis Machine and Tool) also manufactures and assembles our Barreled Uppers, utilizing the same stringent guidelines to meet or exceed current Military Specifications. Our receivers are Hard Coat Black Anodized as per Mil-Spec.
In conclusion, all dimensional as well as assembling requirements are verified before each and every upper receiver is both function tested and test fired. All are then cleaned and oiled for preservation, and individually packaged.
M&A Parts, Inc. is committed to excellence. We look forward to meeting your needs for the highest quality and high value products. We set the standard that our competitors will follow.
William R. Caplan, President
M&A Parts, Inc.
I've tried to get an answer on this out of LMT with no luck. Thanks for reminding me to try again.
First though, note that M& sells actual complete LMT uppers (http://www.m-aparts.com/productsDetail.asp?id=1302) for the same $485 that everyone else charges, AND (at least when they have them in stock) their own branded complete uppers for much less.
Reading between the lines, here's what I think happens.
I think that M&A has barrels "made" via the process that you quoted. Summarized...
We proudly use both Wilson Arms Match Grade and Mike Rock Premium barrel blanks. Our blanks are then sent to a current Military Contractor... Once a barrel blank has reached the contractor it is rifled utilizing the "Button Broach" technique and forwarded to be "Stress Relieved".
My theory is that, from there, the barrel is sent on to LMT who assemble it into a complete upper with gas tube, front sight base, etc.
This is all conjecture. In the past when I've emailed LMT for clarification on something I've gotten replies within 24 hours, 48 tops. I've sent questions regarding M&A (long before the current rush) that have never been replied to. IMHO the silence is deafening.
I asked this question a while back and this thread has a little info. It's not very definative, but it's about as far as I've ever gotten trying to figure this out.
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19272
Nice! Thanks for the replies. I have a M&A M4 kit that has had around 600-700 rounds through it without a hitch; the bolt carrier key wasn't staked properly though, it is staked properly now(got it staked around the 500 round count). Now I don't have to think about this question so much. Kinda sets my mind at rest.:D
Here is my experience with M&A. My dept needed a new upper assembly since one had commenced falling apart. Since it was for my use they asked what I wanted and I said LMT upper, M4 style. They called M&A and ordered it but evidently just asked for "M4 upper" and not distinctly LMT. Probably because it's cheaper by a fair bit...that's your first clue. When we picked it up (at a conference where they were a vendor) I asked the rep if it came with the BCG and he said yes. BCG, handguards all for less than the LMT that has neither. I pulled the BCG and started looking at it...no staking. I ask the rep who made it and he says (clearly annoyed at my questions) "Government contractor, guaranteed".
When I say that the staking looks bad he repeated the government contractor bit. Also during our conversation he became agitated and said that this is what we're getting because there is a year-long wait on anything related to the ar-15 platform.
When I got back to the armory later that week I examined it in detail. I have pictures somewhere but here are the problems that I can remember and the reasons I recommended sending the piece back unused for a refund. I don't feel confident using it.
-from their website 4140 steel. For the price it must be very cheap steel.
-M4 upper...no M4 ramps
-single heat shield
-BCG group VERY poorly staked
-blue extractor insert
-bolt was made by CMT I believe, not MPI
If you delve into their website a bit theres a lot of rubbish about "sanitized gov't parts" and "let us know if you calling on a satellite phone from Iraq..." If you read between the lines, as I do for a living, it doesn't add up. I'll see if I can find my pictures of the "sanitized government contractor" BCG. It wouldn't pass a government inspection administered by a blind monkey.
Well, looks like doubt just entered back into my head.:(
Ok here's a test so see if my picture uploading works...if it does I have a few more.
M&A Parts 16" M4 upper
http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn2/jjhhuurrtt/DSC00773.jpg
Ok good.
M4 upper receiver:
http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn2/jjhhuurrtt/DSC00774.jpg
http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn2/jjhhuurrtt/DSC00775.jpg
Handguards included:
http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn2/jjhhuurrtt/DSC00787.jpg
Bolt:
http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn2/jjhhuurrtt/DSC00785.jpg
Carbine lenght extractor? No.
http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn2/jjhhuurrtt/DSC00784.jpg
Staking? No.
http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn2/jjhhuurrtt/DSC00779.jpg
http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn2/jjhhuurrtt/DSC00781.jpg
The obligatory Compare to Colt Staking Picture:
http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn2/jjhhuurrtt/DSC00791.jpg
One of the cardinal rules of life: You Get What You Pay For
My BCG was staked, but not properly. The original staking on mine looked way better than the one in your picture.
My M&A isn't my go to weapon; but it hasn't failed me yet either.
LMT is a machine company...they will do contracted work for anyone who wants to pay for it...to the standards they are willing to pay for. If your rifle is something you merely want to have and it's just for going to the range it's probably ok. If you NEED a rifle for work, it's just isn't good enough. That's my personal opinion. If they were supplying parts to every firearms manufacturer across the country (as they claim) would they need to waste their time at Sunday gunshows trying to make a buck? Like I said, their claims just don't add up.
LMT is a machine company...they will do contracted work for anyone who wants to pay for it...to the standards they are willing to pay for. If your rifle is something you merely want to have and it's just for going to the range it's probably ok. If you NEED a rifle for work, it's just isn't good enough. That's my personal opinion. If they were supplying parts to every firearms manufacturer across the country (as they claim) would they need to waste their time at Sunday gunshows trying to make a buck? Like I said, their claims just don't add up.
I totally agree with you on a rifle you stake your life on. I can always go to my 6920 if need be.;)
whaledriver
01-07-09, 16:01
Also do not forget that most of the quality of the LMT product is their testing. They test the stuff before they ship it out.
Also do not forget that most of the quality of the LMT product is their testing. They test the stuff before they ship it out.
M&A and DS-ARMS buy uppers from LMT but ALL of the uppers they sell on their websites are NOT made by LMT. LMT does not make "lower quality" uppers for cheaper priced different manufacturers and say they are "LMT uppers." if a manufacturer wants a barrel without chrome lining, LMT will make it, but they will not make "cast lowers" for a cheap company. The full LMT rifle is completely Milspec compliant and 100% US made and the company's owner won't release a gun until they've had like 100,000 rounds through it. (they'll be introducing a new AR at the SHOT Show next week they have been developing for seven years.)
A few years back, I purchased a special ordered M&A upper and it had the same issues as listed i.e. poor bolt carrier key staking, wrong extractor insert and ,for an M4 type upper, with no M203 cuts and or step downs, a heavy almost HBAR type barrel. Definetly not a Milspec upper at all. I kept it without a word to M&A because I got caught up in other projects. Around the same time I picked up a DSA lower that was made and assembled by LMT. Everything on the lower was MilSpec. After some work on the upper, (minor stuff really) it runs really well and groups great but alas I won't be buying anymore stuff from M&A. Lesson learned...:cool:
My experience has been the same with M&A with my M4 upper. My BCG wasn't staked very well either (you could back out the screws with little effort) and when I e-mailed M&A about it I never got a response back. That is my only gripe, I re-staked the BCG and it shoots great. The one positive is that I received my upper in three days and that was at the end of November.:D
LMT build uppers and lower reciever for multiple different companies M&A is one of them they are no different then the common LMT upper they dont set parts that are not to there standards and build them for other companies that isnt what carl lewis likes to put behind his name. I know this because I am ex assembler and machinist and also one of the main people test firing those uppers. LMT has built for many companies from Bushmaster, Barret, Smith and Wesson, Armalite. There main business is contract work.
M&A Parts has been selling "so-called" USGI government parts since the days of Gerald Drasen (a.k.a. Nessard) I wouldn't believe a thing they say about where their parts are sourced. It wouldn't surprise me if the parts were of Chinese origin.
These same clowns once tried to sell me a barrel that had the FSB secured with roll pins. They told me then (with a straight face) that the barrel was USGI and and that roll pins were Milspec.
Do yourself a favor and avoid vendors like M&A. Pay a few bucks more and buy something better.
So far I've got about 250 rounds through my M&A upper with no problems and found it's very accurate. With that being said, their customer service sucks and would never buy from them again...
From the pictures above, it appears very clear that the M&A upper is NOT the same thing as an LMT upper. 1:9, no M4 feedramps, etc.
If they are made by LMT for M&A, they are clearly making a different (and IMHO, lesser quality) product for M&A.
I have never gotten a reply to my inquiries to LMT regarding this. IMHO the silence is deafening as they have always answered all my other questions very quickly.
no M4 feedramps
I have the same upper and I have M4 feed ramps...weird..
a fellow i know locally has been buying some uppers and parts kits from M&A for the last several years.
the uppers he got look exactly like the pics shown here.
i think the in-house M&A uppers are sort of a lowest bidder-grab bag deal.
the ones he got were cardinal forge uppers, cmt bolt & carrier group, either improper or not staked, 4140 steel, 1 in 9 twist barrel. nothing really bad about them. i think one ran OK out o the box. the other needed some tune up work with the extractor&spring/a re-stake. the m4 did have the cutouts on the barrel and the upper unit. the other was a rifle unit.
i wouldn't think LMT assembled these uppers. the good thing is they were assembled proper. no canted FSB or bent gas tube ect ect.
the moral of the story is some times you get some pretty good parts--but you also get some average parts too. these can be OK if you know what your getting.
but they certainly are not up there with the branded LMT uppers and the lower price reflects this.
Ok as im a LMT dealer and way backordered I figured I had better pickup a training gun while I could. I ordered a CL barrel with a 1/7 twist. There are also m4 feedramps.
The Barrel is marked
5.56 Nato 1X7
-CHROMED-
Thats it with no referance to 4150 or 4140.
This has the same markings on the upper reciever as some of the uppers LMT uses in regards to forge mark. This is NOT the standard LMT 16" barrel(I see alot of them) also this does not have the LMT FSB.
Ned Christiansen
02-27-09, 08:24
I'll just say one thing about the bolt in the pic and whoever made it. Somebody has gone to the trouble of rounding the edges of the cam pin hole. I'm seeing more of this and it shows an understanding of why and how bolts crack, and that they don't want it to happen.
I'll just say one thing about the bolt in the pic and whoever made it. Somebody has gone to the trouble of rounding the edges of the cam pin hole. I'm seeing more of this and it shows an understanding of why and how bolts crack, and that they don't want it to happen.
Ned what companies have you noticed doing this?
My M&A rocks, m4 feed ramps , cmt bolt(staked good), accurate as all get out, fit and finish great. Went together perfectly, all parts are quality. No chrome lining or mpi bolt but I really don't see this as an issue as I cannot afford 10,000 rounds of ammo to shoot off in the next ten years and don't own a full auto lower. I plan to shoot mainly quality ammo, so no big deal. It had the LMT inspection tag and has the cardinal forge mark.
Around 500 rounds through it, 360 in one trip( almost all crap ammo, some old weird stuff I've never seen before or since I bought it) no problems at all.
Sorry for dreging this up but I saw this post and couldn't leave it hanging like this, I like my M&A alot, much better quality than MOST of the complete rifles I've been seeing lately. I almost bought a complete rifle for $200 more than what I paid and now am glad I didn't. A standard M&A kit is fine for me for now although if one was to get the kit with a chrome lined 1/7 and ordered a BCM, LMT or CMT mpi bolt you should have a nice set up.
All interaction with M&A including face to face conversations have been nothing but pleasent, nice folks, great to work with. Sorry to hear about others bad experiences, I'll be sending business their way in the future.
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