View Full Version : Have your views on international intervention changed as you've aged?
Not a spam thread, no Yahoo cuts! :D A pure introspective thread.
When I was younger, like a kid and well into adulthood, I was just about always an advocate for "kickin' their asses" should the need arise. I spent four years as an Army grunt and had read enough and spoken to enough WWII and Vietnam vets during high school to know that there was nothing glorious about war and watching your buddies die (or getting whacked yourself). I knew as a young soldier that it wasn't about apple pie and the flag, but the guys to your left and right. I got lucky when I threw my hat into the ring and never "saw the elephant". Nonetheless, I was all about "YEAH baby, America!!!"
Let me preface what I am about to say by clarifying something up front: I am FAAARRR from a pacifist or isolationist. I still believe in America first and foremost, and if a country has it coming then so be it, drop the freaking hammer. That said, as the decades have gone by my trust of institutions has diminished significantly. Not that I ever viewed the government as "benevolent" (like from some 1957 rah-rah go-team clip), but it has drifted far from the begrudging respect I once had for it. I view things now with a raised eyebrow. Most things as a matter of fact.
There has been much exposed over the years regarding government chicanery and lies. The idea I once scoffed at---some insidious cabal actually running things---is not as far flung to me anymore. Now I'm not a conspiracy theorist or anything like that; a "Doubting Thomas" might be more accurate. I don't trust the government to come clean on things. I do believe $$$ is the feeding trough of power. I do believe there is an "Establishment" (a.k.a. "Swamp") that actually borders on a uniparty, but not quite all encompassing yet.
I recognize but don't comprehend the desire of the Left in this country to get all up in Russia's shit over Ukraine. Sure Russia is the aggressor and I hope they get smoked, but Ukraine was part and parcel of our last President's first bullshit impeachment. Therefore my "Go Ukraine" cheering is very muted, in fact non-existent. They can FOAD. When Yeltsin took over back in 1991 we had a historic opportunity to make nice, but the powers-that-be, no doubt driven by defense $$$, kept Russia at arm's length. Then of course shithead and ex-KGB douche Putin crept through the slime and eventually we got to where we are now. I'm done giving those Uke Slav assholes funding, and sure as hell don't want a single American troop or plane involved. It's kind of like when the Soviets and Germans fought in WWII.....who do you root for? They both sucked. Two teams you despise in the Super Bowl? Maybe the blimp will crash on the stadium!
Then we have the Middle East. Many of you have been to the Sandbox and lost friends there. IMO Afghanistan was warranted due to 9-11; the invasion and removal from power of the Taliban, not what came after. Nation-building is a scam and futile. Wreck it and leave it. Fvck up again and we'll be back for more of the same. Iraq? Whew, tough call there. I truly believe Saddam did have some WMD's, just not the motherload we thought he did. Arguably our outcome there was a good deal better than in Afghanistan, in that there is a somewhat "friendly" (albeit untrustworthy) government in place. However, that ultimately left us with outposts there and in Syria (like WTF are we in Syria in the first place; ISIS is gone) which are bombarded by proxies of another international shithead: IRAN.
Ah, good ol' Iran. Yeah, we supported the Shah, but also supported quite a few dickheads around the world over the years. Iran has had a smackdown of epic proportions coming for decades, dating back to 1979 and especially for Oct. 23, 1983 (but again, why the hell were our guys sitting in a perimeter in Beirut of all places? I know why they were there, it's a more rhetorical question). Iran is one of those situations where I haven't really softened my views as I've gotten older.
Then we sashay to the Far East and our good friends China. Never liked 'em, never trusted 'em. Still don't. I consider our own government the biggest threat to our country, but China is #2. Is Taiwan worthy of our help if shit goes down? I tend to lean towards saying yes to that question, but that undertaking can be avoided with strong leadership on our behalf.....which of course we don't have currently in the White House. China respects power and the willingness to use it. The Chinese were wary of a certain Orange Man and I like it that way. Best way to deal with China is to keep them at bay.
Hell, am I becoming a full-fledged curmudgeon because I wonder sometimes if Vietnam was "right"? Jeez, I find myself questioning MANY things I didn't before.
I was all about invading and kicking ass in Iraq and Afghanistan in my early 20's. Now? I'm an isolationist, and we should only venture overseas to open cans of sunshine on the deserving. NATO, the UN, and all the other useless organizations let us fund them damn near solely, with no benefit to us here at home. And forget sending money to countries that HATE us. Make partnerships with those we need to rely on for resources, everyone else can fend for themselves. Sure, China and Russia fill the vacuum, again cans of sunshine should be the deterrent. Stop importing and outsourcing everything we depend on. We can sustain pretty well on what we have domestically for resources.
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I’ve reached that point of assuming any action taken by our Government is going to be the wrong move, and always wonder what the “hook” is; who’s getting rich, who does this actually benefit, what is this costing me/our kids?
Coal Dragger
02-15-24, 16:43
I can no longer advocate international intervention by our government that involves using military force. For the following reasons:
1.) As a nation our citizenry lack the will to see conflicts through to victory. The vast majority of citizens won’t even consider voluntarily giving up small conveniences or paying higher taxes and fees to fund a war effort, much less serving in the military during a conflict.
2.) We elect “leaders” who cannot lead, cannot articulate clear achievable military goals, and who cannot commit to carrying on in the face of set backs or challenges. They’re also not capable of understanding strategic implications of their actions. In short we are a country of morons, who elect morons to “lead” us.
3.) Our military hasn’t legitimately won a conflict since late summer of 1945.
The top leadership of all branches is largely broken and ends up being staffed by administrators wearing uniforms. The rare instances of capable combat leaders with some vision and the right mindset to win who rise to General Officer rank usually seem to result in those individuals quickly leaving as they butt heads with elected morons, and the administrators in uniform. Our service academies produce mediocre officers who are groomed to be junior administrators, and the same is true of various ROTC programs.
There are of course rare exceptions of very good leaders who are commissioned officers, but the results we have gotten speak for themselves. Those results since 1945 suck a bag of dicks.
So, in summary: we don’t have the will to win, we don’t have leaders who fight to win, and the military doesn’t seem to know how to win. So how about we just knock it off until we figure shit out?
https://bkingsfirearms.com/product-category/5-56-nato/?orderby=price-desc
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I recognize but don't comprehend the desire of the Left in this country to get all up in Russia's shit over Ukraine. Sure Russia is the aggressor and I hope they get smoked, but Ukraine was part and parcel of our last President's first bullshit impeachment. Therefore my "Go Ukraine" cheering is very muted, in fact non-existent. They can FOAD. When Yeltsin took over back in 1991 we had a historic opportunity to make nice, but the powers-that-be, no doubt driven by defense $$$, kept Russia at arm's length. Then of course shithead and ex-KGB douche Putin crept through the slime and eventually we got to where we are now. I'm done giving those Uke Slav assholes funding, and sure as hell don't want a single American troop or plane involved. It's kind of like when the Soviets and Germans fought in WWII.....who do you root for? They both sucked. Two teams you despise in the Super Bowl? Maybe the blimp will crash on the stadium!
If it wasn't for totalitarian predecessors, there very well may not be a Putin along with other evils to come out of the USSR.
No doubt the current top tier totalitarians are aware of that, but their flunkies are at least willfully ignorant of that in their bleating.
I can no longer advocate international intervention by our government that involves using military force. For the following reasons:
1.) As a nation our citizenry lack the will to see conflicts through to victory. The vast majority of citizens won’t even consider voluntarily giving up small conveniences or paying higher taxes and fees to fund a war effort, much less serving in the military during a conflict.
2.) We elect “leaders” who cannot lead, cannot articulate clear achievable military goals, and who cannot commit to carrying on in the face of set backs or challenges. They’re also not capable of understanding strategic implications of their actions. In short we are a country of morons, who elect morons to “lead” us.
3.) Our military hasn’t legitimately won a conflict since late summer of 1945.
The top leadership of all branches is largely broken and ends up being staffed by administrators wearing uniforms. The rare instances of capable combat leaders with some vision and the right mindset to win who rise to General Officer rank usually seem to result in those individuals quickly leaving as they butt heads with elected morons, and the administrators in uniform. Our service academies produce mediocre officers who are groomed to be junior administrators, and the same is true of various ROTC programs.
There are of course rare exceptions of very good leaders who are commissioned officers, but the results we have gotten speak for themselves. Those results since 1945 suck a bag of dicks.
So, in summary: we don’t have the will to win, we don’t have leaders who fight to win, and the military doesn’t seem to know how to win. So how about we just knock it off until we figure shit out?
The top tier do seem to get it since it is impossible to be lucky enough to never lose, no matter what their actions, which is how they roll.
Coal Dragger
02-15-24, 17:35
The top tier do seem to get it since it is impossible to be lucky enough to never lose, no matter what their actions, which is how they roll.
I think you might be confusing tactical operations with strategic leadership and decision making. We have lots of dudes who can do the tactical side of winning individual engagements.
We don’t seem to have the ability to win the broader conflict. So all the risk, lost lives, injuries, equipment damaged, and other associated costs are just a total waste.
I think you might be confusing tactical operations with strategic leadership and decision making. We have lots of dudes who can do the tactical side of winning individual engagements.
We don’t seem to have the ability to win the broader conflict. So all the risk, lost lives, injuries, equipment damaged, and other associated costs are just a total waste.
I was meaning all the top US folks providing foreign aid to the USSR. Without that aid there is a decent chance Putin's parents may have ceased existing or otherwise unable to conceive via war or starvation without the meddling.
Now we are meddling in another one with lots of other meddling foreign aid in between.
The foreign aid program certainly has freed up various foreign ne'er do wells from the mundane tasks of providing for their own basic survival needs and allowed them to focus on their wants. That has been repeated so often it can't be accidental.
Averageman
02-15-24, 18:57
The foreign aid program certainly has freed up various foreign ne'er do wells from the mundane tasks of providing for their own basic survival needs and allowed them to focus on their wants. That has been repeated so often it can't be accidental.
And NATO has become a foreign aid program.
No. It has not. I was against the Viet Nam war and no way I was going to be inducted into some bullshit needless foreign entanglement that served no purpose and was not a threat to my homeland; fortunately never received a draft notice. All other conflicts since could have been resolved by discreet covert actions, or massive bombing raids, not worth sacrificing American lives.
We need to get out of the nation building business. Our country needs to let it be known that if we or our citizens get screwed with the extra large can of whoop-ass is getting opened. We will turn them into a parking lot and leave- no spending billions of dollars and countless lives “rebuilding” them. Alas, there is no profit in doing that for our politicians and MIC so that is just wishful thinking.
The Dumb Gun Collector
02-15-24, 19:58
When I was young I was all about “not our problem.” Now that I have lived I realize there is no hiding from this stuff. Weakness will be recognized for what it is.
As a nation, our foreign policy and interventions lack both cohesive planning and moral clarity. We’re flighty allies and fickle foes. We change our minds whenever the political winds change. Due to these issues, the results are rarely good.
Unless we can learn from all the MANY mistakes we make in foreign policy, we really don’t have any business traipsing around the globe sticking our fingers in other country’s pies.
As a nation, our foreign policy and interventions lack both cohesive planning and moral clarity. We’re flighty allies and fickle foes. We change our minds whenever the political winds change. Due to these issues, the results are rarely good.
Unless we can learn from all the MANY mistakes we make in foreign policy, we really don’t have any business traipsing around the globe sticking our fingers in other country’s pies.
I largely agree with this.
I agree with most of the posts on here. No cohesive planning, no moral clarity, we should not be in the business of nation building or supporting Democratic "regimes" (especially in countries that don't want it).
I am a child of the '80s, those were my formative years, with a career Marine father who had three tours in Vietnam, and multiple cousins and uncles in uniform, so I was all about shooting people in the face. But as I got older and wiser and saw all the downhill consequences and policy not to mention the inextricably linked alliances between multiple countries military, political, and industrial industries, I have grown rather worrisome of it and just want to be left alone and for my kids to be safe.
That said, we can't be isolationist anymore. But we need to be very judicious about how and where we spend our national treasure and not at the whim of a handful of politicians' decisions.
Diamondback
02-15-24, 20:32
Other than being unable to serve nd viewing it through the lens of a family member and military historian, my journey's been similar to ABNAK's evolution. Look out for #1 first, extend a helping hand to others when it's in OUR best interest to do so.
Kill the bad guys, trash their crap, make it known that the locals DO NOT want us coming back as enemies, straight back home. If a repeat performance is required, make some big sheets of glass - after all, there weren't a lot of major players who screwed with the Romans after Carthage FAFO'ed.
Yes and no.
I still think it's in our best interest to nip some of this shit in the bud before hostile nations view us as weak and complacent and really start f'ing with us. But at the same time we really don't seem to square anyone away to the point they learn to not f with us so since we aren't accomplishing anything meaningful, not much point in ramping up and sending folks overseas.
That said, regardless of what we do or don't do, Iran seems pretty convinced that they can pull shit and get away with it.
Smedley Butler on the behind the scenes details of the overwhelming urge to meddle in foreign affairs.
https://ratical.org/ratville/CAH/warisaracket.html
Yes and no.
I still think it's in our best interest to nip some of this shit in the bud before hostile nations view us as weak and complacent and really start f'ing with us. But at the same time we really don't seem to square anyone away to the point they learn to not f with us so since we aren't accomplishing anything meaningful, not much point in ramping up and sending folks overseas.
That said, regardless of what we do or don't do, Iran seems pretty convinced that they can pull shit and get away with it.
Sadly that ship sailed when Obama was elected. When Biden was elected that ship burned to the waterline and sank into the Marianas Trench. :(
vicious_cb
02-16-24, 03:18
Nice to know that most people on here can look back of the 20+ years in Iraq and Afghanistan and realize the disaster that is US foreign intervention. For those that don't you'll going to be seeing more lessons about the failures of US policy real soon ie. the Ukraine project and trying to intervene in ME again ie Yemen and Iran.
Like many I totally supported Afghanistan and Iraq, maybe I was too naive about the complete corruption of the MIC and the Bush regime using Halliburton contracts to fill their bank accounts or all the warlords in Afghanistan we bribed that turned coat as soon as the money ran out and all the free weapons we gifted the Taliban. Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me. If you arent wise to gov't and media manipulation by now then the Ukraine project should be a litmus test to how gullible to MSM propaganda you are.
Grendelshooter
02-16-24, 06:42
Smedley Butler on the behind the scenes details of the overwhelming urge to meddle in foreign affairs.
https://ratical.org/ratville/CAH/warisaracket.html
I read that after o came back from tour 2 in Iraq. Read it again here a few weeks ago.
I went from “Ra-ra-ra! Red-white-blue!” When I was 18 and enlisting in 2000 to the Armed forces should only exist for border duty.
We can’t even claim to export “democracy (whatever that even means)” anymore. We spread degeneracy, dependence, and destruction. USA means Usury, Sodomy, and Abortion.
I would rather we be an isolated republic that only deals with other nation via diplomats than the world hegemon we are now. If someone wants to fight us let them come here to do it.
If I have my way, and so far so good, my children will never know that my family had a military heritage going back to the revolutionary war. That ends with me. I’ll not have my children die for empire.
Seeing my war end the same way my dads war did, with a helicopter fleeing from the roof of an embassy, kinda broke me.
When I was a kid/teen, I was all about intervention. Thought it was a grand adventure and duty to police the world. Later, in my early twenties, I embraced a more isolationist, libertarian philosophy. Probably the height of that was the night we lost a guy in an IED/EFP attack in Iraq. This was November 2011, and the "final" withdraw was just weeks away. It seemed so pointless.
Since then, I've somewhat moderated my thoughts. I don't think it's out duty to police the world, but just sitting back and pretending foreign affairs don't matter is incredibly stupid. We need to pick and chose our battles, rather than ignore everything or run around willy nilly. We also need to stop the "nation building" idea that has never really worked out for us, but rather go ham on our enemies, and then go home.
BrigandTwoFour
02-16-24, 07:58
So my background is not as a grunt, but with strategic nuclear weapons. That balance of understanding deterrence is my bread and butter- so it colors my perspective.
On the one hand, I'm neither a pacifist nor an isolationist. I firmly believe that a big part of having the respect of the world means both having overwhelming military capability, and being willing to use it. If you don't demonstrate that you can willingly do the things that you present that you can, then the value of having the capability is diminished. Also, I believe there is value in testing your doctrine and methodology against real circumstances. If nothing else, the Maginot Line should have taught us that getting high on your own supply is a bad idea. Just because you built up in a way that defeats how you would approach a situation doesn't mean a real adversary thinks or acts like you do.
I also believe that there are real problems int he world that somes need serious military intervention. Call it small wars, if you will. When these arise, they should be met with overwhelming military force and resolved as quickly as possible.
On the other hand, I'm no fan of old men dreaming up wars for young men to go die in. Too often, these conflicts exist to line the pockets of a select group. We the people, the media, and politicians do a shitty job of asking, "who is really benefiting from getting involved here?" Or, probably more sinister, who is benefiting from prolonging a conflict beyond what was necessary.
I largely agree with this.
I agree with most of the posts on here. No cohesive planning, no moral clarity, we should not be in the business of nation building or supporting Democratic "regimes" (especially in countries that don't want it).
I am a child of the '80s, those were my formative years, with a career Marine father who had three tours in Vietnam, and multiple cousins and uncles in uniform, so I was all about shooting people in the face. But as I got older and wiser and saw all the downhill consequences and policy not to mention the inextricably linked alliances between multiple countries military, political, and industrial industries, I have grown rather worrisome of it and just want to be left alone and for my kids to be safe.
That said, we can't be isolationist anymore. But we need to be very judicious about how and where we spend our national treasure and not at the whim of a handful of politicians' decisions.
Yeah, like it or not we are a major world-scene player. It is a tough line to walk, projecting strength and a "You don't really want to fvck with us" persona while NOT sticking our damn noses into everything going on globally.
Eisenhower's MIC reference in that one speech was telling......
I probably support foreign intervention more now than I did. That doesn’t mean I think we should fight a dozen forever wars, but I do believe in using all the instruments of national power in our best interest. When I was younger I had more of a “A country boy can survive” attitude. While it’s still important to me that I know I can survive quite comfortably with a shotgun, a fishing pole, and a good knife I think it’s a bit idealistic to believe that a country with as much wealth and global significance as the U.S. can afford not take interest in what happens across the oceans.
In my late 30s, after serving in the military, spending time overseas, and doing some additional education I think the world is more connected than people like to admit. I think it’s pretty clear that OIF was a mistake, but I’m also not convinced that we wouldn’t have had to commit military forces in that part of the world sooner or later anyway. What I do think is a problem is that we never want to admit when something isn’t working, or just doesn’t have a value proposition, but no one wants to call a spade a spade. I think that attitude is exactly why Afghanistan ended up the way it dead—I was there in 2012 and most people I deployed with say the writing on the wall. I don’t think leaving the way we did was right either, but no one wanted to admit that the nation building effort had failed and by the time it was obvious we had more dead Americans and no options.
When I was a kid/teen, I was all about intervention. Thought it was a grand adventure and duty to police the world. Later, in my early twenties, I embraced a more isolationist, libertarian philosophy. Probably the height of that was the night we lost a guy in an IED/EFP attack in Iraq. This was November 2011, and the "final" withdraw was just weeks away. It seemed so pointless.
Since then, I've somewhat moderated my thoughts. I don't think it's out duty to police the world, but just sitting back and pretending foreign affairs don't matter is incredibly stupid. We need to pick and chose our battles, rather than ignore everything or run around willy nilly. We also need to stop the "nation building" idea that has never really worked out for us, but rather go ham on our enemies, and then go home.
Pretty well sums up how I feel.
When I was a kid/teen, I was all about intervention. Thought it was a grand adventure and duty to police the world. Later, in my early twenties, I embraced a more isolationist, libertarian philosophy. Probably the height of that was the night we lost a guy in an IED/EFP attack in Iraq. This was November 2011, and the "final" withdraw was just weeks away. It seemed so pointless.
Since then, I've somewhat moderated my thoughts. I don't think it's out duty to police the world, but just sitting back and pretending foreign affairs don't matter is incredibly stupid. We need to pick and chose our battles, rather than ignore everything or run around willy nilly. We also need to stop the "nation building" idea that has never really worked out for us, but rather go ham on our enemies, and then go home.
Well said, I would agree. When I was 19 I couldn't wait to go kick some terrorist ass for 9/11, now I'm 37 and think I don't want my 3 kids to have to go over fight in some hell hole because we're "saving" these people, when they don't want to be saved. I have a Vietnam vet neighbor who did 2 tours and just talks about how the Vietnamese people around him didn't really care why the Americans where there, and didn't think their lives would change one way or another. So why are we fighting? I'm absolutely for safe guarding American lands and American freedom, but if Ukraine didn't prepare for a Russian invasion and if European Nato Countries don't pay their fair share then screw them, I don't want Americans dying for something that they could have prevented.
Averageman
02-16-24, 09:46
I'm absolutely for safe guarding American lands and American freedom, but if Ukraine didn't prepare for a Russian invasion and if European Nato Countries don't pay their fair share then screw them, I don't want Americans dying for something that they could have prevented.
Right there with you.
No one appreciates the cost we pay to be the World Police, not our Representatives, not our Government and by and large the People could care less.
The dead, those who came home with broken Bodies and broken Souls mean nothing to them by and Large.
I can no longer advocate international intervention by our government that involves using military force. For the following reasons:
1.) As a nation our citizenry lack the will to see conflicts through to victory. The vast majority of citizens won’t even consider voluntarily giving up small conveniences or paying higher taxes and fees to fund a war effort, much less serving in the military during a conflict.
2.) We elect “leaders” who cannot lead, cannot articulate clear achievable military goals, and who cannot commit to carrying on in the face of set backs or challenges. They’re also not capable of understanding strategic implications of their actions. In short we are a country of morons, who elect morons to “lead” us.
3.) Our military hasn’t legitimately won a conflict since late summer of 1945.
The top leadership of all branches is largely broken and ends up being staffed by administrators wearing uniforms. The rare instances of capable combat leaders with some vision and the right mindset to win who rise to General Officer rank usually seem to result in those individuals quickly leaving as they butt heads with elected morons, and the administrators in uniform. Our service academies produce mediocre officers who are groomed to be junior administrators, and the same is true of various ROTC programs.
There are of course rare exceptions of very good leaders who are commissioned officers, but the results we have gotten speak for themselves. Those results since 1945 suck a bag of dicks.
So, in summary: we don’t have the will to win, we don’t have leaders who fight to win, and the military doesn’t seem to know how to win. So how about we just knock it off until we figure shit out?
This right here CD. Very well said. Our population DOES NOT have the will to win. Without the will to win, there is zero point in starting anything anywhere.
I was 100% interventionist when I was younger. I really thought we learned our lesson after VN. I thought that Desert Storm was proof positive of that. A little voice popped up in my mind questioning that after the Battle of the Black Sea, but I didn’t listen.
Military action in Bosnia? A NATO campaign in Kosovo? Yup, I’m in. Afghanistan? Let’s roll. WMDs in Iraq? Time to take care of business. I participated in all of the above.
My last deployment to Iraq was in 05/06. Having dinner with my wife in the chow hall in Ballad I was talking about how Baghdad would be like Berlin by 2020. “We’ll be here on vacation, sipping coffee at a cafe in the Tigris with our kids.”
I was naive and very, very wrong.
So many obvious signs that were easy to ignore (like Somalia), but our surrender of Afghanistan was my final straw. While some of us have the will to do what needs to be done, the vast majority do not.
As far as our “leadership”? Horrible. I am a production of a Service Academy, and while I personally got a lot out of the experience, I saw first hand all of its flaws. By the time I was an O-3 the lack of true leadership and accountability was glaringly obvious. And that was 20 years before all of the woke DEI BS. Some of the morons in charge of the USAF in theater during GWOT were shockingly dumb. Why was no Flag Officer held accountable for the failure in Afghanistan & Iraq?
Time to clean up shit here at home. Once we have our house in order, then we’ll help you with yours.
Coal Dragger
02-16-24, 20:05
LOL.
I never once thought in 2004 while I was in Iraq that I would ever vacation in Iraq. I didn’t expect it to unwind as badly as it did at the time, but I had zero expectations that Iraq had any potential to become a civilized nation. The writing was clearly on the wall even then.
Some more on getting involved.
https://constitutioncenter.org/the-constitution/historic-document-library/detail/george-washington-farewell-address-1796
Averageman
02-17-24, 15:45
Interesting Read on this subject;
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/opinion/let-them-vote/ar-BB1iqntl?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=HCTS&cvid=29064db4c02f4589ab96b89a89839ee1&ei=4
And Congress should step up. The world is a dangerous place. America’s allies face existential threats. Vladimir Putin intends to absorb Ukraine into his resurgent Russian empire. Iran’s theocrats seek to destroy the Jewish state by proxy wars and nuclear arms. Xi Jinping wants Beijing to rule Taipei. We owe it to our friends — and to the generations of Americans who sacrificed for peace — to do what we can to deter aggressors.
The critics argue that ending aid will bring the Ukraine war to a close. Not so. Russia will continue to fight. Ukrainians will resist. Even if the combatants agreed to a cease-fire along the current lines of control, Putin would resume the invasion at his convenience. He’s done it before. And he has targets beyond Ukraine. At this moment, Russia is probing Finland and Estonia — NATO members both.
Putin feeds off weakness. Off irresolution. Which is what he sees in America right now. What better way to contradict him than by helping Ukraine pummel his war machine?
Interesting Read on this subject;
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/opinion/let-them-vote/ar-BB1iqntl?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=HCTS&cvid=29064db4c02f4589ab96b89a89839ee1&ei=4
And Congress should step up. The world is a dangerous place. America’s allies face existential threats. Vladimir Putin intends to absorb Ukraine into his resurgent Russian empire. Iran’s theocrats seek to destroy the Jewish state by proxy wars and nuclear arms. Xi Jinping wants Beijing to rule Taipei. We owe it to our friends — and to the generations of Americans who sacrificed for peace — to do what we can to deter aggressors.
The critics argue that ending aid will bring the Ukraine war to a close. Not so. Russia will continue to fight. Ukrainians will resist. Even if the combatants agreed to a cease-fire along the current lines of control, Putin would resume the invasion at his convenience. He’s done it before. And he has targets beyond Ukraine. At this moment, Russia is probing Finland and Estonia — NATO members both.
Putin feeds off weakness. Off irresolution. Which is what he sees in America right now. What better way to contradict him than by helping Ukraine pummel his war machine?
Axing Biden and reelecting Trump.
LOL.
I never once thought in 2004 while I was in Iraq that I would ever vacation in Iraq. I didn’t expect it to unwind as badly as it did at the time, but I had zero expectations that Iraq had any potential to become a civilized nation. The writing was clearly on the wall even then.But ya gotta admit, it was semi-satisfying to find out later they are still functioning and survived the ISIS onslaught while Afghanistan completely collapsed. While I was there, I also had very low expectations of the outcome of spreading democracy at gunpoint and always thought the "righteous" war was in Afghanistan.
Coal Dragger
02-17-24, 22:06
Afghanistan was righteous.
The correct strategy being to exterminate every military aged male in the country, and then leave. Impart a lesson the savages will remember for a couple of hundred years, and bounce. Don’t fix anything. Don’t nation build. Just hand out forever sleep to barbarians and leave them lying where they died.
Afghanistan was righteous.
The correct strategy being to exterminate every military aged male in the country, and then leave. Impart a lesson the savages will remember for a couple of hundred years, and bounce. Don’t fix anything. Don’t nation build. Just hand out forever sleep to barbarians and leave them lying where they died.
I would only add soft apology to Russia for f'ing them over in Astan in retaliation for f'ing us over in Nam and a token invitation to resume their occupation.
In Iraq we really could have just confirmed their weapon policy, removed the top 12 offenders and left. Eliminating everyone who was ever a member of the Baath party was idiotic, it was like levels of denazification in Germany where if the postmaster was a member of the NSDAP he had to go, the only dramatic thing we did in Iraq is hand power from the Sunni population to the Shia population and they really weren't our friends either.
Reagan spent years building an alliance with Iraq and Bush 41 trashed it because he wanted to look the other way regarding Kuwait slant drilling Iraqi oil deposits across the border. Without a doubt Hussein was a terrible person, but we supported the Shah with his human rights abuses which were "about as bad." And if Mexico decided to tap oil deposits in Texas from across the border, it would be a problem.
The whole fiasco with Iraq was completely avoidable. Given that they fought an 8 year war with Iran, we could have helped out a little by buying some of their overpriced oil. God knows in 1990-91 we were still effectively giving Israel a blank check in the form of foreign aid.
Coal Dragger
02-18-24, 03:55
Saddam was a son of a bitch.
But he was OUR son of a bitch.
Grendelshooter
02-18-24, 04:01
Interesting Read on this subject;
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/opinion/let-them-vote/ar-BB1iqntl?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=HCTS&cvid=29064db4c02f4589ab96b89a89839ee1&ei=4
And Congress should step up. The world is a dangerous place. America’s allies face existential threats. Vladimir Putin intends to absorb Ukraine into his resurgent Russian empire. Iran’s theocrats seek to destroy the Jewish state by proxy wars and nuclear arms. Xi Jinping wants Beijing to rule Taipei. We owe it to our friends — and to the generations of Americans who sacrificed for peace — to do what we can to deter aggressors.
The critics argue that ending aid will bring the Ukraine war to a close. Not so. Russia will continue to fight. Ukrainians will resist. Even if the combatants agreed to a cease-fire along the current lines of control, Putin would resume the invasion at his convenience. He’s done it before. And he has targets beyond Ukraine. At this moment, Russia is probing Finland and Estonia — NATO members both.
Putin feeds off weakness. Off irresolution. Which is what he sees in America right now. What better way to contradict him than by helping Ukraine pummel his war machine?
Edit: Apologies, I didn’t realize you were quoting the article.
The author of that piece will beat the war drums but never send a son to die on foreign soil, or stand at attention as roll call is taken and taps is played. I’ve done the latter too many times.
I’m of opinion we should have glassed Afghanistan and not sent one American there to put boots on the ground. I didnt and still don’t give two shits about iraq either. I understand WHY we went there, to isolate Iran, but we lacked the will to actually fight war.
I say we keep our bases abroad for deployment if needed. But we don’t need to be the worlds police force. I couldn’t care less about Russia invading Ukraine. Their isn’t one good guy in that battle, except the people in the ground losing their lives on both sides.
We would have a lot less war if war only happened AFTER the leaders of the countries had a dual to the death. Those who want to put out national treasure in harm’s way, aren’t willing to make sacrifices of their own.
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Coal Dragger
02-18-24, 12:46
Edit: Apologies, I didn’t realize you were quoting the article.
The author of that piece will beat the war drums but never send a son to die on foreign soil, or stand at attention as roll call is taken and taps is played. I’ve done the latter too many times.
I looked that turd up.
Yeah, that dude can go suck a dick. Another neocon shitter who wants to send others to fight and possibly die so he can profit.
Our most important lesson is yet to be learned, I pray we we survive it as a nation !
Afghanistan was the right war. It should have been kept air and special operations, though. No nation building, no deposing the Taliban, just shooting terrorists in the face. That's it.
Iraq, that should have not happened, at least not then. Honestly we had all the laws on our side to rain pain on Saddam after the first Gulf War but we never followed up.
Leaving our infrastructure and our equipment (including ****ing helicopters) for the Taliban was intentional, the same way they're cutting fencing on the border to facilitate the invasion. They're not just that stupid, it's worse.
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Coal Dragger
02-18-24, 19:37
Afghanistan was the right war. It should have been kept air and special operations, though. No nation building, no deposing the Taliban, just shooting terrorists in the face. That's it.
Iraq, that should have not happened, at least not then. Honestly we had all the laws on our side to rain pain on Saddam after the first Gulf War but we never followed up.
You’re not wrong about Afghanistan.
Iraq never needed to happen, including the first one. We should have told the Kuwaitis to knock off their oil thievery and pay back Iraq or we’d let Saddam have them. Saddam was our boy, he did us a solid taking the piss out of Iran. I’ll bet Kuwait would have stopped their bullshit. We could have also bought Iraqi oil to help boost their economy after the Iran-Iraq war.
Instead we showed up like some dumbass cops in a place like New York and did the international equivalent of kicking the shit out of a homeowner for protecting their property from a thief.
vicious_cb
02-18-24, 20:03
Our most important lesson is yet to be learned, I pray we we survive it as a nation !
I guess its true that people only change when they hit rock bottom. Its approaching very quickly.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GGpkid_XYAA22Na?format=jpg&name=medium
ChattanoogaPhil
02-19-24, 08:03
Afghanistan? Oh please...
Just a few months prior to 9/11 the Bush admin was praising the Taliban and their efforts in eradicating opium poppy cultivation, and announced an aid package of tens of millions of your tax dollars.
Anyone remember Bush's anti-drug TV campaign? A businessman in a bar buying a dime bag was characterized as supporting the drug trade and terrorists. Naturally, when Bush launched his misguided invasion of Afghanistan poppy production soared to record levels and those anti-drug TV ads stopped. Gotta keep those farmers happy and economy going if you're gonna 'democratize' at gunpoint. Flood the world with cheap heroin and enrich terrorists involved in the drug trade, all in the name of democracy and nation building. It's beautiful thing. sigh...
Some folks say that the American people don't have the will to support ongoing conflicts around the globe. I disagree. The American people are smart enough to not support doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result.
You’re not wrong about Afghanistan.
Iraq never needed to happen, including the first one. We should have told the Kuwaitis to knock off their oil thievery and pay back Iraq or we’d let Saddam have them. Saddam was our boy, he did us a solid taking the piss out of Iran. I’ll bet Kuwait would have stopped their bullshit. We could have also bought Iraqi oil to help boost their economy after the Iran-Iraq war.
Instead we showed up like some dumbass cops in a place like New York and did the international equivalent of kicking the shit out of a homeowner for protecting their property from a thief.
I don't have an issue with Iraq 1.0. There was a true national security concern (to everyone) if Iraq was going to hold onto Kuwait's oil. The fact that Bush held a master class in doing it through an international coalition that had some countries that historically did not support us was extremely helpful.
Iraq 2.0, though, no. In hindsight there were ways to contain any WMD threat (if they were true) without a full-scale occupying war.
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