That's Not Fair...That's Cheating...

[SteyrAUG]

So today was really nice weather (mid 50s) and the range wasn't muddy so we did a little shooting.

Our group is mostly cops and dedicated shooters.

Had an interesting and challenging setup.

One group of six 6" falling plates at 25 yards (each numbered 1 to 6)

One group of six 6" falling plates at 10 yards (each numbered 1 to 6)

The basic drill was to engage one plate at 25 yards from a draw (determined by whatever number the range master selects) and then move to the plates at 10 yards either shooting all six or just evens or just odds depending upon instructions. The only thing you don't know in advance is which of the 6 plates ate 25 yards you are supposed to shoot until the RM calls it out.

So before a run they might say "evens" which means you know in advance that on the 10 yard plates you will be shooting 2, 4 & 6 and then if he calls out "5" you draw, shoot the #5 plate at 25 yards and then move onto the even plates at 10 years.

Simple but changeable enough to keep it interesting.

So after the first few runs all the Glock guys keep commenting about what a good shot the old timer is with his first DA shot since I'm running a SIG P226. People asked me if I had a LEM or other modification...nope...stock trigger.

After about the fourth round somebody asked me how I'm able to do consistent DA long pull shots at 25 yards that fast without missing and I said "I'm not." Then after doing it two more times somebody finally saw it.

In the long time ago days when shooting combat magnums I learned to cock the revolver on the draw for long difficult shots. Only cost me a fraction of time but paid off well once I settled into a comfortable shooting position. And I've been doing the same thing with SIGs and HKs ever since. I draw thumb on the hammer and have it fully cocked by the time I have a two handed shooting position. These days most people don't even see it if I don't point it out to them and they all just assume I'm some kind of wizard on a long DA pull trigger.

When working close targets only, I usually won't precock the trigger because it doesn't buy me much of anything.

Anyway as soon as all the striker fired kids figured out what I was doing they called cheating.

So why is it cheating? It's not safe. Well how it is less safe than your Glock? ***crickets***

Well your SIG isn't designed to be cocked on the draw. OK, how about a I holster it precocked and it will be like your Glock? ***crickets***

Well it just isn't fair... What part isn't fair about running a SA trigger against a SA trigger? ***crickets***

Then I did a few more times and a couple people accused me of not actually cocking the hammer saying I was just messing with them so I did it slower to show them I actually am cocking the hammer as part of my draw and presentation.

And then it wasn't fair again but nobody could explain exactly why.

It was a good day at the range.

[C-grunt]

Sounds like done dudes got their panties twisted. Just tell them to get better and beat you.

[Wildcat]

I've shot with some guys who complain like that. You would have whupped them if you shot a revolver.

Didn't they also insist that you have to use the de-cocking lever before moving to the 10-yard position?

If they were half clever, they would have made you shoot the course with a Glock.


Our local range has a steel plate event. A number of years ago, similar umbrage ensued and a P226 was involved.
The match director at the time had developed a preference for IDPA. He and his buddies must have been crushing the local IDPA match.

At the steel plate event, they were clearly fed-up with being out-shot; often by people who were competing using 1911 pattern guns.

The director split the Stock pistol division so that souped-up 1911s and (mainly) 2011s would have to register in Custom Division and would not be going head to head against 'Production' guns. At least one of his committee was shooting an M&P (which was relatively new at the time).
The theory being that Production guns hadn't been customized. No, really.

It wasn't long before a guy dug a beat-up Sig 226 out of the depths of his safe and consistently edged them out week after week.

So, after few months of that, another another rule change was made: DA/SA guns were not allowed to start in single action.
Reflecting on it, I'm surprised we didn't see an uptick in Hi-Powers.

Positions in the results didn't change much at all. There was grumbling about how leaders pistol must have had some significant gunsmithing. As if their Glocks were still in factory condition.
Worth mentioning: the stock DA trigger on the P226 isn't all that bad. Its certainly an improvement over the P225.

[Entryteam]

So today was really nice weather (mid 50s) and the range wasn't muddy so we did a little shooting.

Our group is mostly cops and dedicated shooters.

Had an interesting and challenging setup.

One group of six 6" falling plates at 25 yards (each numbered 1 to 6)

One group of six 6" falling plates at 10 yards (each numbered 1 to 6)

The basic drill was to engage one plate at 25 yards from a draw (determined by whatever number the range master selects) and then move to the plates at 10 yards either shooting all six or just evens or just odds depending upon instructions. The only thing you don't know in advance is which of the 6 plates ate 25 yards you are supposed to shoot until the RM calls it out.

So before a run they might say "evens" which means you know in advance that on the 10 yard plates you will be shooting 2, 4 & 6 and then if he calls out "5" you draw, shoot the #5 plate at 25 yards and then move onto the even plates at 10 years.

Simple but changeable enough to keep it interesting.

So after the first few runs all the Glock guys keep commenting about what a good shot the old timer is with his first DA shot since I'm running a SIG P226. People asked me if I had a LEM or other modification...nope...stock trigger.

After about the fourth round somebody asked me how I'm able to do consistent DA long pull shots at 25 yards that fast without missing and I said "I'm not." Then after doing it two more times somebody finally saw it.

In the long time ago days when shooting combat magnums I learned to cock the revolver on the draw for long difficult shots. Only cost me a fraction of time but paid off well once I settled into a comfortable shooting position. And I've been doing the same thing with SIGs and HKs ever since. I draw thumb on the trigger and have it fully cocked by the time I have a two handed shooting position. These days most people don't even see it if I don't point it out to them and they all just assume I'm some kind of wizard on a long DA pull trigger.

When working close targets only, I usually won't precock the trigger because it doesn't buy me much of anything.

Anyway as soon as all the striker fired kids figured out what I was doing they called cheating.

So why is it cheating? It's not safe. Well how it is less safe than your Glock? ***crickets***

Well your SIG isn't designed to be cocked on the draw. OK, how about a I holster it precocked and it will be like your Glock? ***crickets***

Well it just isn't fair... What part isn't fair about running a SA trigger against a SA trigger? ***crickets***

Then I did a few more times and a couple people accused me of not actually cocking the hammer saying I was just messing with them so I did it slower to show them I actually am cocking the hammer as part of my draw and presentation.

And then it wasn't fair again but nobody could explain exactly why.

It was a good day at the range.

"The FAIR comes around in september, boys."

[henri]

I used to do that when I had a CZ75, precocking upon the draw was performed whether the target was 5yds or 25 yds; increases accuracy without really affecting draw time.
Cheating ? Seriously ? Life lesson: Nothing is fair.... Cheat to win (especially in elections).

[Heavyweight]

Yah….more like your shooting buddies just ****ing with you! They know damn well cocking on the draw ain’t cheating. Just smart. That’s exactly how I practice with all my DA/SA pistols. Why sacrifice first round accuracy?


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[Adrenaline_6]

I never understood that mindset with the striker vs DA/SA. Why should the DA/SA have any disadvantage on the first shot vs a striker pistol if they choose not to shoot DA on the first shot? It requires a fraction of time to get there to begin with. So how is this cheating or an advantage?

Like you mentioned. Those questions would also get *crickets*.

[pinzgauer]

I draw thumb on the trigger and have it fully cocked by the time I have a two handed shooting position.

I'm just trying to figure out how someone would draw with their thumb on the *trigger*. :)

[joe138]

When we were issued 226's and then 220's, I always shot like that from the 25 and 50 yard stages. I didn't need to from the close stages and always fired DA. If the firearms instructor caught me, I would get yelled at. My response was at those distances I was behind "cover" as those were fired from barricades.

[SteyrAUG]

I'm just trying to figure out how someone would draw with their thumb on the *trigger*. :)

That would be cheating. I meant hammer.

[pag23]

Well played....I'll always have a legacy Sig P series around. I just prefer the P229

[ThirdWatcher]

I never believed there was any way to “cheat” in self-defense shooting. When I was a LE Firearms Instructor I tried to instill this mindset in my fellow Troopers. I’d read the instructions, which were usually something like “Load ten rounds” (in a fifteen round mag) and I’d watch which guys complied and ask them why they didn’t load fifteen rounds? “The mag holds fifteen rounds, why don’t you want an edge?” Thank God they all survived their careers.

[SteyrAUG]

I never believed there was any way to “cheat” in self-defense shooting. When I was a LE Firearms Instructor I tried to instill this mindset in my fellow Troopers. I’d read the instructions, which were usually something like “Load ten rounds” (in a fifteen round mag) and I’d watch which guys complied and ask them why they didn’t load fifteen rounds? “The mag holds fifteen rounds, why don’t you want an edge?” Thank God they all survived their careers.

I'd say a good 75% of all LE training is being conditioned to follow the rules as stated, no exceptions.

[ThirdWatcher]

I'd say a good 75% of all LE training is being conditioned to follow the rules as stated, no exceptions.

I know, but rules are supposed to be guidelines, not law.

Deep down, I’ve always been anti-establishment. The only way I was able to promote to Sergeant was when the department was between evaluation systems (as I regularly got torpedoed in my promotional evaluations), it was only written exam & assessment center. Luckily they were looking for risk takers that year and I was promoted in the first round. I don’t believe in micromanagement and I wanted my guys to think for themselves.

[SteyrAUG]

I know, but rules are supposed to be guidelines, not law.

Deep down, I’ve always been anti-establishment. The only way I was able to promote to Sergeant was when the department was between evaluation systems (as I regularly got torpedoed in my promotional evaluations), it was only written exam & assessment center. Luckily they were looking for risk takers that year and I was promoted in the first round. I don’t believe in micromanagement and I wanted my guys to think for themselves.

You are an independent thinker. Do you think you are the norm?

[yoni]

This whole thread reminds me of the day I set up a course of fire that included an armed bad guy with his back to the shooter. I would say it messed up maybe 25% of the shooters.

[ChrisM516]

Cheating? More like a learning opportunity if they had any self-awareness.

[rero360]

I would do the same thing when I took part in CAARNG EIC match with an issued M9. Nothing in the CAARNG or CMP rule books said anything about it so I fired all courses of fire starting with the hammer pulled back. I'm not sure how much it made a difference but I was able to place in the top ten percent that day and earn my bronze EIC pistol badge.

[ThirdWatcher]

You are an independent thinker. Do you think you are the norm?

No. The agency I’m retired from rewarded group-think.

[ThirdWatcher]

Cheating? More like a learning opportunity if they had any self-awareness.

Exactly.

[ST911]

Not cocking a DA hammer for "safety" is mostly a range-ism, risk management, and crutch-prevention for group/institutional users.

Nothing wrong with it when done competently and thoughtfully for the appropriate shooting problem.

[Diamondback]

Not cocking a DA hammer for "safety" is mostly a range-ism, risk management, and crutch-prevention for group/institutional users.

Nothing wrong with it when done competently and thoughtfully for the appropriate shooting problem.

You forgot "and sore losers."

Steyr, see what they say if you do it with a sixgun. :) My money is they STILL cry foul, because Turdsucking Whiner gonna Turdsucking Whiner.

Hey, I'm not ashamed to admit that my ex beat me fair and square a few times... and that sheer dumb luck by one of the guys we were shooting with turning in a score marginally worse than mine was the only thing that that saved my wallet from getting a jailhouse pedo-pounding on the Walk of Shame to go buy everybody's lunches.