View Full Version : The History of Sig, Kimber, and Ron Cohen
alvincullumyork
03-06-24, 11:45
Can you guys fill in the blanks for me with Sigs recent history, basically since Ron Cohen took over? More or less I am interested in the issues they've had with safety and quality control and maybe some more background on the issues I know of.
From what I think I know, Kimber went bankrupt but had a good reputation for high quality firearms. In some form or fashion it was brought back and Rob was the new CEO and quality went down, the series II drop safety was introduced, slides and chambers were overly tight, MIM fire control parts were used, and a host of other issues. Lots of new flashy models were introduced and marketing.
In 2005 or maybe 2004 Cohen moved to Sig.
The P250 air marshall contract went bad when the guns were found to be unreliable. Wikipedia says the Netherlands had a big issue with the gun as well and H&K and Walther both filed protests.
The Sig 556 rifles came with a switchable gas block but both gas ports were the same size.
The M17/P320 drop safety issue that was fixed for the military but was a voluntary send it back for civilians? I believe this is an on going issue?
Rob avoids jail time in Germany for selling pistols to Columbia that were manufactured in Germany. Ended up paying an almost 700k fine.
I guess what I'm asking for is just a little more background information on the issues above and if I missed anything?
titsonritz
03-06-24, 13:50
It’s Ron not Rob.
Coal Dragger
03-06-24, 14:00
It’s Ron not Rob.
Yep that dude is so bad at QC/QA he can’t even spell his own name correctly.
titsonritz
03-06-24, 14:06
Yep that dude is so bad at QC/QA he can’t even spell his own name correctly.
But he turns out profitable pieces of shit.
The M17/M18 never had the drop issue. They used a different trigger assembly than the civilian P320.
Can you guys fill in the blanks for me with Sigs recent history, basically since Ron Cohen took over? More or less I am interested in the issues they've had with safety and quality control and maybe some more background on the issues I know of.
From what I think I know, Kimber went bankrupt but had a good reputation for high quality firearms. In some form or fashion it was brought back and Rob was the new CEO and quality went down, the series II drop safety was introduced, slides and chambers were overly tight, MIM fire control parts were used, and a host of other issues. Lots of new flashy models were introduced and marketing.
In 2005 or maybe 2004 Cohen moved to Sig.
The P250 air marshall contract went bad when the guns were found to be unreliable. Wikipedia says the Netherlands had a big issue with the gun as well and H&K and Walther both filed protests.
The Sig 556 rifles came with a switchable gas block but both gas ports were the same size.
The M17/P320 drop safety issue that was fixed for the military but was a voluntary send it back for civilians? I believe this is an on going issue?
Rob avoids jail time in Germany for selling pistols to Columbia that were manufactured in Germany. Ended up paying an almost 700k fine.
I guess what I'm asking for is just a little more background information on the issues above and if I missed anything?
Maybe first gen pistols had a rep for being decent pistols. They're a marketing company, not a gun company and their 1911s were garbage. I knew smiths who refused to even work on them. I recall Hilton Yam saying he wouldn't even use the slide/frame as a base gun for a build. Maybe they improved in the last decade since I paid attention to such things, but I doubt it.
One needs a little history to put everything in perspective. Up until the early 2000s, Sig was completely phenomenal. Pretty much everything they made was gold. Even the ones made in The USA for the first couple of years.
Been shooting Sig most of my career/life. When I transitioned fro revolver to SA back in 1988 (yes, that old) I went with the W. German P226. Adjusted for inflation in 1988 dollars that would run about $1200 bucks right now. I made swat, where we carried 45s. I went with the W. German P220 for about the same price. Several years later, I made detective and swapped out the 226 for a 1/2 German and 1/2 American P229 around 1996. I carried that or my 220 until 2012.
Yes, everything you've heard is pretty much true. In the early 2000s, they switched from quality, to quantity. Obviously, quality suffered, and the rest is history. That's when they started making colored guns for every personality. What a joke. Business suffered and the rest is history. They've gotten a lot better since, but they're absolutely nowhere near back to their roots as everything coming off the line being top-tier. They are just another mass production now. With one exception...
That exception is the Legion line. In my opinion, the Legion is absolutely as good, if not a little better than the old West German ones were. Adjusted for inflation, they are about the same price. Remember, back in 1988 a W. German 220/226 would run you $750+. That was a LOT of money back then for a cop that had to buy his own roster approved weapon.
Freely admit I'm a fanboy, but I would absolutely not buy any one of their "metal frame" products that wasn't a legion. The P365 is awesome, but no... I still do not trust the P320 completely. 90%, but that's not enough. The P365 is my EDC and it is 100% so far.
My advice now... Save up and buy a Staccato 2011. If I was working and/or carrying for a living now, THAT'S what I would have.
alvincullumyork
03-06-24, 15:07
It’s Ron not Rob.
Oh jeeze... I fixed that.
Yep that dude is so bad at QC/QA he can’t even spell his own name correctly.
Bwahahahahaahaja
The M17/M18 never had the drop issue. They used a different trigger assembly than the civilian P320.
I did not know that.
Maybe first gen pistols had a rep for being decent pistols. They're a marketing company, not a gun company and their 1911s were garbage. I knew smiths who refused to even work on them. I recall Hilton Yam saying he wouldn't even use the slide/frame as a base gun for a build. Maybe they improved in the last decade since I paid attention to such things, but I doubt it.
Yes I've heard that 1911 smith's won't even work on them aanymore. I have also heard the pre Cohen guns were actually pretty good but that's sometime in the 90s.
One needs a little history to put everything in perspective. Up until the early 2000s, Sig was completely phenomenal. Pretty much everything they made was gold. Even the ones made in The USA for the first couple of years.
Been shooting Sig most of my career/life. When I transitioned fro revolver to SA back in 1988 (yes, that old) I went with the W. German P226. Adjusted for inflation in 1988 dollars that would run about $1200 bucks right now. I made swat, where we carried 45s. I went with the W. German P220 for about the same price. Several years later, I made detective and swapped out the 226 for a 1/2 German and 1/2 American P229 around 1996. I carried that or my 220 until 2012.
Yes, everything you've heard is pretty much true. In the early 2000s, they switched from quality, to quantity. Obviously, quality suffered, and the rest is history. That's when they started making colored guns for every personality. What a joke. Business suffered and the rest is history. They've gotten a lot better since, but they're absolutely nowhere near back to their roots as everything coming off the line being top-tier. They are just another mass production now. With one exception...
That exception is the Legion line. In my opinion, the Legion is absolutely as good, if not a little better than the old West German ones were. Adjusted for inflation, they are about the same price. Remember, back in 1988 a W. German 220/226 would run you $750+. That was a LOT of money back then for a cop that had to buy his own roster approved weapon.
Freely admit I'm a fanboy, but I would absolutely not buy any one of their "metal frame" products that wasn't a legion. The P365 is awesome, but no... I still do not trust the P320 completely. 90%, but that's not enough. The P365 is my EDC and it is 100% so far.
My advice now... Save up and buy a Staccato 2011. If I was working and/or carrying for a living now, THAT'S what I would have.
That's a great summary.
One needs a little history to put everything in perspective. Up until the early 2000s, Sig was completely phenomenal. Pretty much everything they made was gold. Even the ones made in The USA for the first couple of years.
Been shooting Sig most of my career/life. When I transitioned fro revolver to SA back in 1988 (yes, that old) I went with the W. German P226. Adjusted for inflation in 1988 dollars that would run about $1200 bucks right now. I made swat, where we carried 45s. I went with the W. German P220 for about the same price. Several years later, I made detective and swapped out the 226 for a 1/2 German and 1/2 American P229 around 1996. I carried that or my 220 until 2012.
Yes, everything you've heard is pretty much true. In the early 2000s, they switched from quality, to quantity. Obviously, quality suffered, and the rest is history. That's when they started making colored guns for every personality. What a joke. Business suffered and the rest is history. They've gotten a lot better since, but they're absolutely nowhere near back to their roots as everything coming off the line being top-tier. They are just another mass production now. With one exception...
That exception is the Legion line. In my opinion, the Legion is absolutely as good, if not a little better than the old West German ones were. Adjusted for inflation, they are about the same price. Remember, back in 1988 a W. German 220/226 would run you $750+. That was a LOT of money back then for a cop that had to buy his own roster approved weapon.
Freely admit I'm a fanboy, but I would absolutely not buy any one of their "metal frame" products that wasn't a legion. The P365 is awesome, but no... I still do not trust the P320 completely. 90%, but that's not enough. The P365 is my EDC and it is 100% so far.
My advice now... Save up and buy a Staccato 2011. If I was working and/or carrying for a living now, THAT'S what I would have.
How about long guns? Sig has a reputation for just dropping a line of weapons, including support/parts for that line. That said, Sig is either A) fellating the right people, or B) has significantly improved quality to land these .mil contracts. The Sig Spear comes to mind, as well as the LT and Rattler (the latter being the choice for SOCOM's PDW).
Then there's the optic line of products, which (at least to me) has seemed to be steadily improving in quality.
One needs a little history to put everything in perspective. Up until the early 2000s, Sig was completely phenomenal. Pretty much everything they made was gold. Even the ones made in The USA for the first couple of years.
Been shooting Sig most of my career/life. When I transitioned fro revolver to SA back in 1988 (yes, that old) I went with the W. German P226. Adjusted for inflation in 1988 dollars that would run about $1200 bucks right now. I made swat, where we carried 45s. I went with the W. German P220 for about the same price. Several years later, I made detective and swapped out the 226 for a 1/2 German and 1/2 American P229 around 1996. I carried that or my 220 until 2012.
Yes, everything you've heard is pretty much true. In the early 2000s, they switched from quality, to quantity. Obviously, quality suffered, and the rest is history. That's when they started making colored guns for every personality. What a joke. Business suffered and the rest is history. They've gotten a lot better since, but they're absolutely nowhere near back to their roots as everything coming off the line being top-tier. They are just another mass production now. With one exception...
That exception is the Legion line. In my opinion, the Legion is absolutely as good, if not a little better than the old West German ones were. Adjusted for inflation, they are about the same price. Remember, back in 1988 a W. German 220/226 would run you $750+. That was a LOT of money back then for a cop that had to buy his own roster approved weapon.
Freely admit I'm a fanboy, but I would absolutely not buy any one of their "metal frame" products that wasn't a legion. The P365 is awesome, but no... I still do not trust the P320 completely. 90%, but that's not enough. The P365 is my EDC and it is 100% so far.
My advice now... Save up and buy a Staccato 2011. If I was working and/or carrying for a living now, THAT'S what I would have.
Would only add that Kimber began as a small shop making custom 1911s and was a victim of their own success. SWAT teams went nuts for the Custom TLE II, which meant everyone reading handgun magazines went nuts for the Custom TLE II and they just couldn't keep up without cutting corners.
Would only add that Kimber began as a small shop making custom 1911s and was a victim of their own success. SWAT teams went nuts for the Custom TLE II, which meant everyone reading handgun magazines went nuts for the Custom TLE II and they just couldn't keep up without cutting corners.
I have a TLE RL2....bought used with minimal wear but I upgraded all springs and frame internals with Ed Brown parts... had a gunsmith work on it and it had a out of spec mag release that was replaced with a Colt part....
Kimber of Oregon was top shelf at one point & I regret selling my 1911...I collect their snazzy 22 rifles w/ the fancy wood. My understanding is the owner started putting it all up his nose as the downfall?? Dan Cooper went & spun off on his own because of it as I recall.
Averageman
03-06-24, 18:30
I've owned two Sig Carbines, the Sig SWAT and their offering in 7.62x39.
They were trash, absolute garbage that I traded for an M1A that I'm happy with.
I have a TLE RL2....bought used with minimal wear but I upgraded all springs and frame internals with Ed Brown parts... had a gunsmith work on it and it had a out of spec mag release that was replaced with a Colt part....
Makes a big difference when it was made.
Makes a big difference when it was made.
2018 i believe..hence the slight overhaul by the gunsmith, but he didn't find any other issues...
It’s Ron not Rob.
In his defense... the B and N are RIGHT next to each other on the keyboard.
alvincullumyork
03-07-24, 09:57
I have a TLE RL2....bought used with minimal wear but I upgraded all springs and frame internals with Ed Brown parts... had a gunsmith work on it and it had a out of spec mag release that was replaced with a Colt part....
That was the Kimber I had as well. It looked great, was Lazer accurate, had a good trigger, and felt like it was made for my hand.
The barrel had two small notches in the barrel half way down, Kimber said not to worry about it if it didn't cause any issues. It would run past 200 rounds without a thorough cleaning, kimber said it needed an unspecified break in round count. After a thousand or so round it would go to 300 without cleaning. Then it started to double and triple fire, I was out of the warranty period so I'd have to pay kimber to fix it. Had a local smith fix that issue. Then the grip safety stopped consistently disengaging the series II drop safety. I had another local smith remove that. By then I had no faith in it whatsoever so I sold it to a buddy with full disclosure of all my issues.
alvincullumyork
03-07-24, 09:58
Makes a big difference when it was made.
Anything with a 2 at the end of it and the desert warrior are the new guns with MIM parts.
I love the pre-New Hampshire, West German SIGs. Especially the P series. The quality of them started going down after they moved to the US and started building a billion different types of guns.
Regarding Kimber, I have no personal experience. I know that Det 1 used a Kimber and disliked it so much they went back to MEU(SOC) 1911s.
I love the pre-New Hampshire, West German SIGs. Especially the P series. The quality of them started going down after they moved to the US and started building a billion different types of guns.
Regarding Kimber, I have no personal experience. I know that Det 1 used a Kimber and disliked it so much they went back to MEU(SOC) 1911s.
A few years ago, I snatched up a 95 or 96 fully German made P220 with German proof marks and 2 zipper mags for $500.... If I compare it to my newer ex CT State Police P220 gun there are slight differences, but the slide is the biggest one. I am greatful that all the mags work in both guns...
That was the Kimber I had as well. It looked great, was Lazer accurate, had a good trigger, and felt like it was made for my hand.
The barrel had two small notches in the barrel half way down, Kimber said not to worry about it if it didn't cause any issues. It would run past 200 rounds without a thorough cleaning, kimber said it needed an unspecified break in round count. After a thousand or so round it would go to 300 without cleaning. Then it started to double and triple fire, I was out of the warranty period so I'd have to pay kimber to fix it. Had a local smith fix that issue. Then the grip safety stopped consistently disengaging the series II drop safety. I had another local smith remove that. By then I had no faith in it whatsoever so I sold it to a buddy with full disclosure of all my issues.
I like the TLE due to history with LAPD SWAT... but this is mostly a range or BBQ gun. lol
I like the TLE due to history with LAPD SWAT... but this is mostly a range or BBQ gun. lol
wait... you can COOK on a 1911?!
Anything with a 2 at the end of it and the desert warrior are the new guns with MIM parts. how sure are you of that? during the “2” phase they definitely made some design/engineering changes, such as moving from external to the current (and original) internal extractors.
Would only add that Kimber began as a small shop making custom 1911s and was a victim of their own success. SWAT teams went nuts for the Custom TLE II, which meant everyone reading handgun magazines went nuts for the Custom TLE II and they just couldn't keep up without cutting corners. that explains why I don’t hate my Kimber. I think it was from about the same era the TLE II was showing up in magazines. Maybe mine slipped past the shortcut machine somehow, or maybe I just don’t shoot it that much (I don’t).
2018 i believe..hence the slight overhaul by the gunsmith, but he didn't find any other issues... that’d be a lot newer than SteyrAUG’s Oregon reference. They moved to Yonkers, NY at least by ‘05, which is when I bought my Gold Combat II when it was a custom shop item. I think I was seeing Yonkers on slides for a few years before that, as well.
alvincullumyork
03-07-24, 11:56
how sure are you of that? during the “2” phase they definitely made some design/engineering changes, such as moving from external to the current (and original) internal extractors.
that explains why I don’t hate my Kimber. I think it was from about the same era the TLE II was showing up in magazines. Maybe mine slipped past the shortcut machine somehow, or maybe I just don’t shoot it that much (I don’t).
that’d be a lot newer than SteyrAUG’s Oregon reference. They moved to Yonkers, NY at least by ‘05, which is when I bought my Gold Combat II when it was a custom shop item.
The Oregon guns are the ones that are supposedly actually good. After they moved to NY is when the switch to the series II drop safety and MIM parts happened. The series II safety is a stupid design.
alvincullumyork
03-07-24, 11:58
I like the TLE due to history with LAPD SWAT... but this is mostly a range or BBQ gun. lol
That's why I bought mine. Then I heard they weren't actually ordered by the SWAT team bit were just an authorized gun that individuals on the team could purchase and use. I don't know how true that is though.
I understand that LAPD SIS also had Kimber 1911s?
I understand that LAPD SIS also had Kimber 1911s?
Yeah with the SIS engraved in the slide as cocking serrations.... there was one near me for sale and I thought about it for nostaliga but it was beat and the price too high...
wait... you can COOK on a 1911?!
don't knock it until you try it... gunpowder is a good seasoning....:rolleyes:
how sure are you of that? during the “2” phase they definitely made some design/engineering changes, such as moving from external to the current (and original) internal extractors.
that explains why I don’t hate my Kimber. I think it was from about the same era the TLE II was showing up in magazines. Maybe mine slipped past the shortcut machine somehow, or maybe I just don’t shoot it that much (I don’t).
that’d be a lot newer than SteyrAUG’s Oregon reference. They moved to Yonkers, NY at least by ‘05, which is when I bought my Gold Combat II when it was a custom shop item. I think I was seeing Yonkers on slides for a few years before that, as well.
Mine has the Yonkers Neew Yawk on the slide.. it shot fine prior to the upgrades but I just wanted some MIM parts replaced..
Mine has the Yonkers Neew Yawk on the slide.. it shot fine prior to the upgrades but I just wanted some MIM parts replaced..
I, too, had a first gen Warrior and, though I liked it, I never 100% trusted it. I did quite a bit of work to it and it just never was "glock" trustable. So... I just got out of the 1911 game altogether.
How about long guns? Sig has a reputation for just dropping a line of weapons, including support/parts for that line. That said, Sig is either A) fellating the right people, or B) has significantly improved quality to land these .mil contracts. The Sig Spear comes to mind, as well as the LT and Rattler (the latter being the choice for SOCOM's PDW).
Then there's the optic line of products, which (at least to me) has seemed to be steadily improving in quality.
No experience with Sig long guns. I'm a Colt/DD/BCM fan. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. As for Sig optics, I am not yet impressed. They are getting better though.
Would only add that Kimber began as a small shop making custom 1911s and was a victim of their own success. SWAT teams went nuts for the Custom TLE II, which meant everyone reading handgun magazines went nuts for the Custom TLE II and they just couldn't keep up without cutting corners.
Those were nice. I never shot one. When I was on SWAT and we transitioned fro 9mm to .45 due to a couple failure to stops in actual call-outs, two of us had P220s while the rest of the team had Franken-Colts. Kimber was not well enough known back then and was not on our roster. The 1911s were slightly faster out with the first shots, but the sigs made up for that in reliability. If I had a dollar for every 1911 stove pipe I saw in practice. A sign of the times. Obviously 9mm has made major improvements since the 80s-90s too.
Yeah, I'm a dinosaur... But my God, I was kicking in doors when Miami Vice was still #1 on TV. Those were the days. You could still do your job, and yes I did see all of that sh*t.
Those were nice. I never shot one. When I was on SWAT and we transitioned fro 9mm to .45 due to a couple failure to stops in actual call-outs, two of us had P220s while the rest of the team had Franken-Colts. Kimber was not well enough known back then and was not on our roster. The 1911s were slightly faster out with the first shots, but the sigs made up for that in reliability. If I had a dollar for every 1911 stove pipe I saw in practice. A sign of the times. Obviously 9mm has made major improvements since the 80s-90s too.
Yeah, I'm a dinosaur... But my God, I was kicking in doors when Miami Vice was still #1 on TV. Those were the days. You could still do your job, and yes I did see all of that sh*t.
Yep... it aint like that anymore. Glad I left when I did. 20 was enough... but my WORD was it a ride....
Those were nice. I never shot one. When I was on SWAT and we transitioned fro 9mm to .45 due to a couple failure to stops in actual call-outs, two of us had P220s while the rest of the team had Franken-Colts. Kimber was not well enough known back then and was not on our roster. The 1911s were slightly faster out with the first shots, but the sigs made up for that in reliability. If I had a dollar for every 1911 stove pipe I saw in practice. A sign of the times. Obviously 9mm has made major improvements since the 80s-90s too.
Yeah, I'm a dinosaur... But my God, I was kicking in doors when Miami Vice was still #1 on TV. Those were the days. You could still do your job, and yes I did see all of that sh*t.
Been a long time since that time, but my recollection was the SWAT team had plenty of issues with those guns and quietly phased them out. That was the skinny/rumor at the time as i recall it. Didn't they transition to STI? The only model that people like Hilton Yam and others who really know 1911s liked for a time as base gun was the Desert Warrior, but he said he could not recommend it due to QC issues at the time. I shot a Desert Warrior and it did feel tighter and better put together than others I had shot, but it was limited time with it. Been decades since I paid attention closely to the 1911 world, so of course there may be been changes since then good/bad.
Those were nice. I never shot one. When I was on SWAT and we transitioned fro 9mm to .45 due to a couple failure to stops in actual call-outs, two of us had P220s while the rest of the team had Franken-Colts. Kimber was not well enough known back then and was not on our roster. The 1911s were slightly faster out with the first shots, but the sigs made up for that in reliability. If I had a dollar for every 1911 stove pipe I saw in practice. A sign of the times. Obviously 9mm has made major improvements since the 80s-90s too.
Yeah, I'm a dinosaur... But my God, I was kicking in doors when Miami Vice was still #1 on TV. Those were the days. You could still do your job, and yes I did see all of that sh*t.
When I was on a tac team (I was a medic, but also a cop) we lad S&W 5906. Then Glocks. With mishmash surplus military gear.
This must be pretty new, as I just saw it advertised: https://www.sigsauer.com/mcx-r-regulator.html
It's the Sig "Ranch Rifle" in 5.56 or 7.62x39. Looks like a Spear LT but with a "traditional" stock on it. Fugly for sure, but to each his own.....
ClearedHot
03-07-24, 18:56
What kind of last name is Cohen? Hmm anyone know the origins?
What kind of last name is Cohen? Hmm anyone know the origins?
I think it's Norwegian.
https://drscdn.500px.org/photo/167306545/q%3D80_m%3D1000_k%3D1/v2?sig=e4852c8a6bb1b74d1a1cd3dc53516d8a8438ee4a12ccfcab725f5a06f105c0ef
How about long guns? Sig has a reputation for just dropping a line of weapons, including support/parts for that line. That said, Sig is either A) fellating the right people, or B) has significantly improved quality to land these .mil contracts. The Sig Spear comes to mind, as well as the LT and Rattler (the latter being the choice for SOCOM's PDW).
Then there's the optic line of products, which (at least to me) has seemed to be steadily improving in quality.
The product doesn’t actually have to be good for a mil contract. It just has to be good enough, and most importantly cheaper than the other options. I don’t think upping the quality landed the contracts. I think lowering the price did.
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