View Full Version : Anyone military remember CEOI's?
"Communications-Electronics Operation Instructions" It was a little "code book" with all the unit's challenges and passwords and daily radio frequencies. It was to be signed in and out and was considered a "sensitive item", right up there with a weapon, so don't dare lose one! IIRC you had to have a "Secret" security clearance to sign one out (which back then meant E-5 and above).
Yeah, it was in ancient times (see sigline). Do they still have these? I kind of feel like if I asked some young PFC today about it he'd look at me like I had three eyes and a dick growing out of my forehead!
Hell, the most advanced commo I encountered as a grunt was the "Vincent"!
Averageman
03-17-24, 18:55
Yes I remember the CEOI.
Man, they HAVE to still have them on one level or another. Otherwise the young guys would never have the joy of spending 10 minutes decoding "Eat A D*CK" on New Years Eve an Staff Duty.
We were told that for actual combat use there were unissued, untouched, brand-new CEOI's sitting in a safe at BN HQ, i.e. the old dog-eared ones we always took to the field were not the ones we'd use if the balloon went up.
I heard them called something else...SOI maybe? I can't recall.
Averageman
03-17-24, 19:51
I heard them called something else...SOI maybe? I can't recall.
Same Thing.
If you were on the German Border those things were HUGE. You had one for each unit and support unit behind them.
SOI was Signal Operating Instuctions. CEOI was Communications Electronic Operating Instructions.
Same Thing.
If you were on the German Border those things were HUGE. You had one for each unit and support unit behind them.
SOI was Signal Operating Instuctions. CEOI was Communications Electronic Operating Instructions.
Yes, but I'm not sure how far down the unit level it was different......was it each BN, BDE, DIV? I was in an Infantry BDE in Panama, and to my knowledge our BN had it's own, but I could be wrong. I would think that you'd want some compatibility with sister units to prevent fratricide and to be able to hear calls for help or warnings of enemy activities (?).
To be clear, none of this is 2024 OPSEC as the period I'm referring to was approximately 40 years ago. We carried Springfield Trapdoor muskets for a time reference. :sarcastic:
Averageman
03-17-24, 20:24
Yes, but I'm not sure how far down the unit level it was different......was it each BN, BDE, DIV? I was in an Infantry BDE in Panama, and to my knowledge our BN had it's own, but I could be wrong. I would think that you'd want some compatibility with sister units to prevent fratricide and to be able to hear calls for help or warnings of enemy activities (?).
To be clear, none of this is 2024 OPSEC as the period I'm referring to was approximately 40 years ago. We carried Springfield Trapdoor muskets for a time reference. :sarcastic:
Well, if I remember correctly it Starts at BDE and goes down to the Company Plt Sgt's.
It Broke it down to Companies and then you got a two Letter designation and a two digit number from Co to Plt Sgts.
So the A Company CO might be AO12 and his 3rd Plt Sgt might be A340.
Well, if I remember correctly it Starts at BDE and goes down to the Company Plt Sgt's.
It Broke it down to Companies and then you got a two Letter designation and a two digit number from Co to Plt Sgts.
So the A Company CO might be AO12 and his 3rd Plt Sgt might be A340.
Okay, that rings a bell. It's been a long time!
Yes, I remember them. Used them quite a bit. You meant Vinson equipment right? Secure FM comms that predated SINCGARS. When I went through AIT at Gordon they even trained us on the old Nestor equipment even though it was being phased out.
We used them down to the individual tank level in Germany and during Desert Storm.
Averageman
03-17-24, 21:22
I hated it, it was a lot of extra work to do on the fly while Commanding a Tank.
Then I remind myself that my Dad did it, then transfered it to morse code everytime they needed to send a message.
Yes, I remember them. Used them quite a bit. You meant Vinson equipment right? Secure FM comms that predated SINCGARS. When I went through AIT at Gordon they even trained us on the old Nestor equipment even though it was being phased out.
Yeah, that's it!
I hated it, it was a lot of extra work to do on the fly while Commanding a Tank.
Then I remind myself that my Dad did it, then transfered it to morse code everytime they needed to send a message.
Yeah but in Desert Storm weren't almost 1 in 5 of our casualties from "friendly fire" (biggest yet worst joke in the military vocabulary)? I guess it was important to do it lest you be on the wrong end of a "misunderstanding".
CEOIs were a common thing in Korea. I remember we were issued new ones on a regular basis (no old, dirty, dog-eared ones -- but then Korea was on a pretty rigid go-to-war posture most times where we were at Camp Greaves north of the Imjin River). Not only did it have callsigns, suffixes, and prefixes, you could also encrypt, decrypt, and authenticate by voice.
Once I got to Special Forces we also had the SAVSERSUP (Special Audio-Visual Service Supplement).
Vinson KY-57 had to be keyed with a separate device (in the years before over-the-air re-key). If it ever got zeroed your encryption was basically erased (like formatting a disk).
Averageman
03-17-24, 21:58
CEOIs were a common thing in Korea. I remember we were issued new ones on a regular basis (no old, dirty, dog-eared ones -- but then Korea was on a pretty rigid go-to-war posture most times where we were at Camp Greaves north of the Imjin River). Not only did it have callsigns, suffixes, and prefixes, you could also encrypt, decrypt, and authenticate by voice.
Once I got to Special Forces we also had the SAVSERSUP (Special Audio-Visual Service Supplement).
Vinson KY-57 had to be keyed with a separate device (in the years before over-the-air re-key). If it ever got zeroed your encryption was basically erased (like formatting a disk).
I have to be honest with you, at some point in the advancement of commo, I went on recruiting duty and came back to a whole new world of commo. I learned the basics and kept a cheat sheet, but damn I could barely keep up with the changes.
By the time I had retired and was working for GD, a lot of data was being transfered via Force XXI communications. So I can call for fire, lase to the target and send all target data back to my Arty unit automatically.
Eventually someone will mount a laser up there for missles.
CEOIs were a common thing in Korea. I remember we were issued new ones on a regular basis (no old, dirty, dog-eared ones -- but then Korea was on a pretty rigid go-to-war posture most times where we were at Camp Greaves north of the Imjin River). Not only did it have callsigns, suffixes, and prefixes, you could also encrypt, decrypt, and authenticate by voice.
Once I got to Special Forces we also had the SAVSERSUP (Special Audio-Visual Service Supplement).
Vinson KY-57 had to be keyed with a separate device (in the years before over-the-air re-key). If it ever got zeroed your encryption was basically erased (like formatting a disk).
Yeah I knew it was more than challenges/passwords and frequencies, but couldn't think of exactly what. Thanks. [to be fair I don't recall the encryption thing, but ours were the old-ass "dirty and dog-eared" ones!]
Yes, I remember them. Used them quite a bit. You meant Vinson equipment right? Secure FM comms that predated SINCGARS. When I went through AIT at Gordon they even trained us on the old Nestor equipment even though it was being phased out.
Nope. These were booklets. It's been a long time but IIRC correctly there were challenge and authentication codes and after all that was done you told the station you were sending to 'I set 'Bravo Yankee' and then sent the read the encrypted message to them.
There were training/practice CEOI's which you could take to the field and I'm pretty sure back in the day something like 'Use CEOI to send grid coordinates' or something similar was part of the Skill Level 2 or 3 Common Tasks.
Averageman
03-18-24, 00:02
Nope. These were booklets. It's been a long time but IIRC correctly there were challenge and authentication codes and after all that was done you told the station you were sending to 'I set 'Bravo Yankee' and then sent the read the encrypted message to them.
There were training/practice CEOI's which you could take to the field and I'm pretty sure back in the day something like 'Use CEOI to send grid coordinates' or something similar was part of the Skill Level 2 or 3 Common Tasks.
Yup !
Rifleman_04
03-18-24, 05:30
Just when I was feeling old you guys make me feel like a boot again. We used the CYZ-10(crazy-10) for SINCGARS exclusively when I was in. I never saw any booklet of the kind during my service time.
Nope. These were booklets. It's been a long time but IIRC correctly there were challenge and authentication codes and after all that was done you told the station you were sending to 'I set 'Bravo Yankee' and then sent the read the encrypted message to them.
There were training/practice CEOI's which you could take to the field and I'm pretty sure back in the day something like 'Use CEOI to send grid coordinates' or something similar was part of the Skill Level 2 or 3 Common Tasks.Something like, "I set Alpha Romeo. I send Kilo."
Other stuff:
https://www.doncio.navy.mil/FileHandler.ashx?id=2670
Dang, I remember those, I knew it as "encode/decode" book. I recall the Lt. lost one, was found but at the time, knew it would most likely be the end if not found. This was 1987 in FRG.
I heard them called something else...SOI maybe? I can't recall.
We’ve always used SOI and still do as far as I’m aware - signal operating index IIRC.
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We’ve always used SOI and still do as far as I’m aware - signal operating index IIRC.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Yeah...that's right.
I wasn't a commo guy, way more academic bandwidth (pun intended) than I could bear. Just give me a radio and tell me what channels to use.
Just give me a radio and tell me what channels to use.
I don't know what it's called. I just know the sound it makes when it loses its fill.
I don't know what it's called. I just know the sound it makes when it loses its fill.
Crackle crackle crackle crackle....
When I was in the 82d, pre gwot, using sincgars, all this info was on a device called ANCD (IIRC) a thick black plastic foldy box thing with a radio pig tail hanging out of it. Had a small lcd screen and a couple buttons. It was primarily used to fill the radios but could be gone through to retrieve all of the info you guys are talking about with SOIs. I don't recall how many there were but they weren't plentiful, maybe one per battery/company. I don't know the lineage of this stuff before or after that.
Sent from my SM-A546U using Tapatalk
When I was in the 82d, pre gwot, using sincgars, all this info was on a device called ANCD (IIRC) a thick black plastic foldy box thing with a radio pig tail hanging out of it. Had a small lcd screen and a couple buttons. It was primarily used to fill the radios but could be gone through to retrieve all of the info you guys are talking about with SOIs. I don't recall how many there were but they weren't plentiful, maybe one per battery/company. I don't know the lineage of this stuff before or after that.
Sent from my SM-A546U using Tapatalk
The ANCD was still used as a backup to the SKL (Simple Key Loader). I was in theater when another unit lost an SKL and we had to do an emergency COMSEC change at like 0130, which sucked being out in the middle of BFE and having to do an over the air rekey.
I do not miss being an RTO.
ViniVidivici
03-18-24, 19:57
I remember the SOI being a thick little book, bout the size of a Smartbook, that the RTO would wear around his neck on 550 cord. This was PRC-77 days, I think.
Rumors was that one was lost by a unit in the 82nd during GW1, and therefore all had to be replaced. Wouldn't have wanted to be that guy.
Then we switched to SINCGARS, and the ANCD took care of that. Looked like a thick little laptop. Company RTO would come around and fill everyone's radios.
I don't know what it's called. I just know the sound it makes when it loses its fill.That made me laugh.
When I was in the 82d, pre gwot, using sincgars, all this info was on a device called ANCD (IIRC) a thick black plastic foldy box thing with a radio pig tail hanging out of it. Had a small lcd screen and a couple buttons. It was primarily used to fill the radios but could be gone through to retrieve all of the info you guys are talking about with SOIs. I don't recall how many there were but they weren't plentiful, maybe one per battery/company. I don't know the lineage of this stuff before or after that.
Sent from my SM-A546U using Tapatalk
The SKL is still in service. There are alot of them in the MTOE, but most don't get filled.
Rumors was that one was lost by a unit in the 82nd
As is tradition.
Strike Hold.
As is tradition.
Strike Hold.
Marines losing weps enter the chat. Cross thread points.
Averageman
03-19-24, 08:20
I remember the SOI being a thick little book, bout the size of a Smartbook, that the RTO would wear around his neck on 550 cord. This was PRC-77 days, I think.
Rumors was that one was lost by a unit in the 82nd during GW1, and therefore all had to be replaced. Wouldn't have wanted to be that guy.
As is tradition.
Strike Hold.
That's funny.
When I was in the 82d, pre gwot, using sincgars, all this info was on a device called ANCD (IIRC) a thick black plastic foldy box thing with a radio pig tail hanging out of it. Had a small lcd screen and a couple buttons. It was primarily used to fill the radios but could be gone through to retrieve all of the info you guys are talking about with SOIs. I don't recall how many there were but they weren't plentiful, maybe one per battery/company. I don't know the lineage of this stuff before or after that.
Sent from my SM-A546U using Tapatalk
Still had those suckers on my first deployment in '07. After they taught me how not to be a complete newbie, I had to wake up early once a week, fill my truck's radios, and do a commo check with BN. (which, ironically, was just down the hall). Lord, I hated everything to do with radios.
The ANCD was still used as a backup to the SKL (Simple Key Loader). I was in theater when another unit lost an SKL and we had to do an emergency COMSEC change at like 0130, which sucked being out in the middle of BFE and having to do an over the air rekey.
I do not miss being an RTO.
SKLs were a huge upgrade from the ANCD. Much easier, and far less susceptible to just randomly not working.
I also remember having to do a fill change in the early morning hours in Iraq, but thankfully that was while I was on the COP. Just had to wake up enough to go get the new fill, and put it on the radios.
You guys mentioning a "fill". Care to elaborate? Is it like a downloadable CEOI that has to be uploaded to individual radios every so often?
You guys mentioning a "fill". Care to elaborate? Is it like a downloadable CEOI that has to be uploaded to individual radios every so often?
It's the encryption key that's loaded in the radio at a given time. With the ASIP and MBITR, it was common for guys to lose the fill because of dead batteries or taking too long when swapping them out.
As an RTO, one of my responsibilities was downloading new COMSEC keys from the S-6 and loading them into the SKL so I could fill everyone's radios. I'm not a 25-series, so I'm ignorant to any of the more technical details and terminology.
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