View Full Version : "Surprise, Kill, Vanish: The Secret History of CIA Paramilitary Armies, Operators"
Speaking of Billy Waugh (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?243081-clandestine-CIA-paramilitary-operations-specialist-Ric-Prado), this interview with author Annie Jacobsen who was good friends with him. She wrote the book "Surprise, Kill, Vanish: The Secret History of CIA Paramilitary Armies, Operators, and Assassins" which supposedly Billy gave the OK on and is a major focus of her book.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9VFQ4pS9mo&t=110s
BoringGuy45
03-27-24, 18:01
Read this book about 2 years ago. Excellent read!
Didn't he deploy to Afghanistan in his 70's? Dude was hard as nails!
Didn't he deploy to Afghanistan in his 70's? Dude was hard as nails!
Yep. He was on one of the Jawbreaker Teams, might have been on the first or second team.
I read that Annie Jacobson book, it also covered his time tracking down Carlos the Jackal.
Just finished Surprise, Kill, Vanish. The amount of research she did for that book is astounding. The book is much more than just about Waugh, but he's the central figure in the book. One of the real take aways was that for the most part, the CIA acted on orders from POTUS, often after being clear they didn't support nor recommend the actions taken. There's plausible deniability built in from the start for POTUS's "hidden hand" operations that when/if they go titz up as they often do, never lands on POTUS. The book also makes it very clear 9/11 would have been avoided had the useless coward of a POTUS wouldn't let Waugh and co do their jobs when they knew exactly where OBL was at all times and could have and would have removed that POS easily. The MacVSOG stuff is also really interesting and much of it only recently declassified or gotten by her and others doing some FOIA work. Waugh was still doing work for the CIA in his early 80s!
BoringGuy45
05-03-24, 15:34
Just finished Surprise, Kill, Vanish. The amount of research she did for that book is astounding. The book is much more than just about Waugh, but he's the central figure in the book. One of the real take aways was that for the most part, the CIA acted on orders from POTUS, often after being clear they didn't support nor recommend the actions taken. There's plausible deniability built in from the start for POTUS's "hidden hand" operations that when/if they go titz up as they often do, never lands on POTUS. The book also makes it very clear 9/11 would have been avoided had the useless coward of a POTUS wouldn't let Waugh and co do their jobs when they knew exactly where OBL was at all times and could have and would have removed that POS easily. The MacVSOG stuff is also really interesting and much of it only recently declassified or gotten by her and others doing some FOIA work. Waugh was still doing work for the CIA in his early 80s!
The pattern in the book was that every time the CIA was going to save the day, either the president or the military screwed everything up. But every time the president or the military had the right idea, the CIA weaseled their way into the operation and screwed everything up.
The pattern in the book was that every time the CIA was going to save the day, either the president or the military screwed everything up. But every time the president or the military had the right idea, the CIA weaseled their way into the operation and screwed everything up.
The expansion of Ground Branch from small to a large group of face shooters post 9/11 was interesting also. 9/11 never needed to happen, Iraq II shouldn't have happened. So many missed opportunities.
Great read, I really appreciate the research that went into it.
"I'm from the US government and we're here to help."
I just saw the interview with Lex. Put her book on library hold.
Follow up of interest. In her book she talks about the entire OBL mission being under the always - intentionally according to some - murky Title 50 (https://www.soc.mil/528th/PDFs/Title10Title50.pdf) under the CIA. According to her, ST6 members wore no identifying patches, etc during the op. At the UDT-SEAL Museum (https://www.navysealmuseum.org/), there's a display dedicated to that mission, with a full outfit worn that day by one of the men. It has usual patches one would expect, US flag, etc. However, they're all attached via Velcro. None are sown on. So, did they add the identifying patches post mission? I didn't inquire with the powers that be as there are some topics you don't inquire about. I found that interesting, but I'm a mil/history/SOF nerd all around. I will inquire if/when there's a right place/time for that, but it's not something you knock on the office and ask the retired 6 guys about operating under Title 50 (and 10?) some some missions.
Follow up of interest. In her book she talks about the entire OBL mission being under the always - intentionally according to some - murky Title 50 (https://www.soc.mil/528th/PDFs/Title10Title50.pdf) under the CIA. According to her, ST6 members wore no identifying patches, etc during the op. At the UDT-SEAL Museum (https://www.navysealmuseum.org/), there's a display dedicated to that mission, with a full outfit worn that day by one of the men. It has usual patches one would expect, US flag, etc. However, they're all attached via Velcro. None are sown on. So, did they add the identifying patches post mission? I didn't inquire with the powers that be as there are some topics you don't inquire about. I found that interesting, but I'm a mil/history/SOF nerd all around. I will inquire if/when there's a right place/time for that, but it's not something you knock on the office and ask the retired 6 guys about operating under Title 50 (and 10?) some some missions.
A good friend just retired from the air force, he was pararescue. He had spent several years with 24th STS (the AF's SMU, often farmed out to the other SMUs and CIA). We had a similar chat, he said that 'black' operations would be sterile: no dog tags, no patches, no US-specific identifying features. Then we laughed because, well, you know.
I would think it's OK to ask. I mean, the fact that SMUs often operate under Title 50/10 isn't itself a secret, so asking about the patches is OK.
.. According to her, ST6 members wore no identifying patches, etc during the op. At the UDT-SEAL Museum (https://www.navysealmuseum.org/), there's a display dedicated to that mission, with a full outfit worn that day by one of the men. It has usual patches one would expect, US flag, etc. However, they're all attached via Velcro. None are sown on. So, did they add the identifying patches post mission? I didn't inquire with the powers that be as there are some topics you don't inquire about. I found that interesting, but I'm a mil/history/SOF nerd all around...
In Col. Charles Beckwith book, he wrote that the D operators wore blue jeans, Army field jacket died black with US flag on it. The flag was covered with duct tape and supposedly they were to peel off the duct tape to reveal themselves just before they enter the US embassy. There is a youtube video of an actual jacket owned by an operator on that mission, where they showed and described his black field jacket modifications.
A good friend just retired from the air force, he was pararescue. He had spent several years with 24th STS (the AF's SMU, often farmed out to the other SMUs and CIA). We had a similar chat, he said that 'black' operations would be sterile: no dog tags, no patches, no US-specific identifying features. Then we laughed because, well, you know.
I would think it's OK to ask. I mean, the fact that SMUs often operate under Title 50/10 isn't itself a secret, so asking about the patches is OK.
It's a matter of time/place kinda thing and reading the room. I will inquire about that at some point.
In Col. Charles Beckwith book, he wrote that the D operators wore blue jeans, Army field jacket died black with US flag on it. The flag was covered with duct tape and supposedly they were to peel off the duct tape to reveal themselves just before they enter the US embassy. There is a youtube video of an actual jacket owned by an operator on that mission, where they showed and described his black field jacket modifications.
Not sure if that falls under Title 50/10 working "sheep dipped" under the CIA per se. I read the book, don't recall mention of who they mission was under. I suppose I/we, could find the answer with some digging.
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