View Full Version : Historical: Son Tay Raiders CAR-15
These photos are of the SF personnel just before the Son Tay prison raid in 1970. What kind of scopes are those on the CAR-15's/XM-177's?
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y167/pb57/Slide16.jpg
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y167/pb57/Slide8.jpg
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y167/pb57/Slide5.jpg
Ah, the first use of red dot sights in combat. At least that I am aware of. I'll bet those early red dot sights are now worth money:eek:.
Thanks for posting that.
Are they some sort of big older type Armson OEG?
IIRC LAV said that the original red dot sights used on the Son Tay raid were Armson OEG (Occluded Eye Gunsight).
Apparently tough to find on the collector market because they were also featured in the original Star Wars movie.
I have no special knowledge here. However, they look to me (from the photo) like an old Burris pistol scope.
BTW, these pics are great. TOS has a great sticky of historical photos like this.
They are the original Singlepoint Occluded Eye Gunsight.
Toten Kopf
01-10-09, 13:09
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olds442tyguy
01-10-09, 14:49
Trijicon maintained production of the OEG up until about a year ago. You can still find them brand new if you search.
Could be GAU-5's, but why would Army SF be using USAF weapons?
fabulous45s
01-10-09, 15:20
What an awesome operation. The debrief from that was incredible to read. We've had a couple of veterans from that op come by the schoolhouse for a visit. Good bunch of cats.
ICANHITHIMMAN
01-10-09, 15:34
In my opinion you guys are right on with the ARMSONG sight
One of thouse men is my uncle Todd he was just laid to rest with full military honours last month he was 63. I would have loved to ask him for you guys.
There were many variants, but is this the one in the photos?:\
http://www.retroblackrifle.com/ModGde/CrbGde/610.html
RogerinTPA
01-10-09, 16:38
Later model Armson OEG
http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee15/RogerTPA/armson1.jpg
Apparently, from what I was told, they used two types of 1st gen RDS, Armson and Singlepoint due to availability. The photos show only one type. It was a COTS purchase.
LonghunterCO
01-10-09, 16:50
Singlepoint. Would I get in trouble if I linked TOS?
They are the original Singlepoint Occluded Eye Gunsight.
This. I used to own one on an SP-1 many moons ago...
Tomac
IIRC LAV said that the original red dot sights used on the Son Tay raid were Armson OEG (Occluded Eye Gunsight).
Apparently tough to find on the collector market because they were also featured in the original Star Wars movie.
They are Singlepoints not Armson sights
The Singleponts were made by Normark.
Armsons were made later.
The guns used in the rail were GAU-5A/As (Colt model 630s).
They are not XM177E2s (Colt model 629s)
These are the same weapon (both 11.5" barrels) except the 630 doesn't have a forward assist and the 629 does.
A GAU-5A is not the same weapon as a GAU-5A/A.
A GAU-5A is a Colt 610 and has a 10" barrel, a partial fence lower, no chrome chamber, and no grenade launcher mounting ring.
Iraq Ninja
01-11-09, 07:45
Some of these guys later became instructors at SOT out at Mott Lake. I went there in 1979 and they gave us a little debrief over beer and deer (an instructor hit a deer with his car and we cooked it up). From what I remember, the red goggles were to protect their night vision.
I asked about the rumor about Russian advisors being there. One guy told me that he did see some rather tall guys with round eyes, but that they didn't stop to check their passports after they killed em.
I think they also took home a baby water buffalo, but I was a bit too drunk to remember the details. Those SF guys could out drink us young Rangers... lesson learned!
Interesting story, not directly related to the original question.
There were (maybe still are) a lot of retired Son Tay Raiders working at the Special Warfare Center. When I was at the Q Course ('98-'99), one of them told us this story:
Due to security concerns, it was decided that no personnel currently in VietNam would be pulled for the Son Tay project. They didn't want a bunch of guys mysteriously disappearing, and people asking questions.
So, one day all of the SF guys on Fort Bragg got instructions to meet at a certain time at a theater on Smoke Bomb Hill. Once everyone was seated, an officer got up on stage and gave a speech to the effect of:
"Gentlemen, we are looking for volunteers for a highly classified and dangerous project. If you are interested, come back and be seated in one hour. If you are not interested, thank you for your time. Oh, and there won't be any per diem."
The guys who came back started training and became the Son Tay Raiders.
The following is an excellent book on SonTay. Fascinating read. Covers everything butt-to-muzzle: mission, weapons, training, personnel, politics. True life story that is beyond fiction.
The Raid: The Son Tay Prison Rescue Mission by Benjamin F. Schemmer
I asked about the rumor about Russian advisors being there. One guy told me that he did see some rather tall guys with round eyes, but that they didn't stop to check their passports after they killed em.
I think they also took home a baby water buffalo, but I was a bit too drunk to remember the details. Those SF guys could out drink us young Rangers... lesson learned!
In the book "The Raid" by Benjamin Schemmer, there is a picture of a Chinese officer's belt and buckle retrieved from a dead Chinese by Capt. Udo Walther at the secondary school that they landed and assaulted by mistake. Many of the questions here are answered in the book.
Iraq Ninja
01-11-09, 09:22
Ok, I am going on old conversations, so maybe someone will be able to fill in the blanks here. In the Ranger Bn, we used to get what we called "hooah" speeches in which they would bring in a guest speaker.
One of them was a SF Sgt Major whose name was Jakobenko, or something like that. He was on the raid and I think mentioned a HALO op just before the raid, to put eyes on the target. Not sure if that is in the book or not.
He said he carried a M60 with a full belt of tracers, and that some young officer commented to him that tracers would give away his position to the enemy. He laughed at him and said he didn't intend to do any long range shooting with it.
I think he also mentioned killing some "Eastern Europeans" near the cells. I know the book mentions the Chinese, but I am pretty sure there were other nationalities there too, unless there were Chinese with blue eyes and blond hair :).
Jako went on to be one of the founding members of Blue Light, and I recall him talking about carrying sawed off shotguns under raincoats during some mission.
Son Tay would make a great movie...
I found the below excerpt on the subject while searching.
"In 1970 when COL Arthur Simmons was training the task force that flew into North Vietnam and took down the Son Tay Prison camp, he was searching for a way to increase the hit probability in the dark. His mission had top priority for everything and anything they wanted. Yet the military supply system was unable to come up with a suitable solution. The story is that one night Simmons and his armorer were trying to solve the problem when they came across an ad for the Armson OEG in either American Rifleman or Guns and Ammo (I've seen both version of the story in print). They ordered a couple to try and the team's hits went up dramatically. They local purchased enough for the men who raided the prison camp and they worked well. "
I agree on the assessment that the weapon was a GAU-5/A no FA and a 10 inch barrel. Still unclear about the optic I could not find one picture of a Armson OEG that resembled the optic in question, nor could I find a picture of a normark singlepoint. Brands aside it was a non-standard red dot type optic most likely commercially purchased for the op. It was I am sure not in the military inventory. Special Forces units then and now have the priority and funds to get what they need at any given time despite weather or not it is official issued equipment. To this day "team funds" or other means are regularly used to purchase non-standard equipment for specific needs.
I found the below excerpt on the subject while searching.
"In 1970 when COL Arthur Simmons was training the task force that flew into North Vietnam and took down the Son Tay Prison camp, he was searching for a way to increase the hit probability in the dark. His mission had top priority for everything and anything they wanted. Yet the military supply system was unable to come up with a suitable solution. The story is that one night Simmons and his armorer were trying to solve the problem when they came across an ad for the Armson OEG in either American Rifleman or Guns and Ammo (I've seen both version of the story in print). They ordered a couple to try and the team's hits went up dramatically. They local purchased enough for the men who raided the prison camp and they worked well. "
I agree on the assessment that the weapon was a GAU-5/A no FA and a 10 inch barrel. Still unclear about the optic I could not find one picture of a Armson OEG that resembled the optic in question, nor could I find a picture of a normark singlepoint. Brands aside it was a non-standard red dot type optic most likely commercially purchased for the op. It was I am sure not in the military inventory. Special Forces units then and now have the priority and funds to get what they need at any given time despite weather or not it is official issued equipment. To this day "team funds" or other means are regularly used to purchase non-standard equipment for specific needs.
This is wrong. The Armson (with the hex shaped tubes) were not used.
The guns used in the raid were GAU-5A/As, not GAU-5As They are clearly not 10" barrels. You can see this in the pictures.
Someone not versed in all this can mistake each one of these things for the other.
Here is a picture of some Singlepoints.
The top one was used in the raid.
http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x115/coctailer/DSC00432.jpg
Could be GAU-5's, but why would Army SF be using USAF weapons?
The rescue force was put together from volunteers, rather than using an existing unit, and they were supplied with pretty much everything once they got to Eglin AFB.
The following is an excellent book on SonTay. Fascinating read. Covers everything butt-to-muzzle: mission, weapons, training, personnel, politics. True life story that is beyond fiction.
The Raid: The Son Tay Prison Rescue Mission by Benjamin F. Schemmer
Agreed, excellent book.
The guns used in the rail were GAU-5A/As (Colt model 630s).
They are not XM177E2s (Colt model 629s)
These are the same weapon (both 11.5" barrels) except the 630 doesn't have a forward assist and the 629 does.
A GAU-5A is not the same weapon as a GAU-5A/A.
A GAU-5A is a Colt 610 and has a 10" barrel, a partial fence lower, no chrome chamber, and no grenade launcher mounting ring.
Thanks Scott, that's some great info.
BillyBones
01-12-09, 07:57
Nice, I still have my SinglePoint, it has lost it's radium lumenance, but is great in the daylight... Still have the box and it's in great shape.
Last time I had it mounted it was on a Leader T2... If anyone can remember this rifle, it was a good one.
Billy
Here is a picture of some Singlepoints.
The top one was used in the raid.
http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x115/coctailer/DSC00432.jpg
If I remember right there are a couple of the carbines on display in the JFK Spec Warfare museum on Ft. Bragg.
.
http://www.dod.mil/pubs/foi/reading_room/974.pdf
The above is an older declassified report on the raid and is interesting reading. It includes a complete list of all personnel involved as well as a "lessons learned" section. Regarding the sights:
(k) Acquisition of the Armalite Single Point Sight posed problems of yet another sort. After recognizing the usefulness of this particular item, a call was placed to Costa Mesa, California on 15 September inquiring as to the availability of the sight. On 18 September, one sight was airmailed to the project with a mount that was the only model available to the JCTG during the requisite time frame of the problem. After testing the sight under field conditions, it was decided to purchase an additional 49 sights for use by the operational detachments. A local purchase agreement was subsequently entered into and 27 sights, with mounts, were immediately forwarded at a cost of $49.50 each. Upon arrival, these sights were zeroed under daylight conditions and used in an assault situation during the next night insert. Problems arose due to the looseness of this particular mount, but a generous use of black electrician's tape prevented breakage or loss of these items. Target hits increased greatly and groupings of hits were smaller, resulting in more confidence in the individual weapon. On 21 October the remainder of the sights arrived, were used, and a proper zero established.
On mags:
(o) Two hundred fifty 30 round magazines for the M-16 were acquired directly from the Colt Arms Company through coordination at DA as magazines were not available through normal supply channels. A problem with the magazines was that there was no ammunition pocket for carrying these in the Load Bearing Equipment, however another carrying means, a modified Claymore mine bag, was developed.
Unrelated, but interesting:
1(c) The 12 gauge, duck-billed shotgun was used with great success in the objective area.
My guess on the Shorties is they were commercial-purchased XM-177s (slab-sided, no forward assists). My old brain cells are failing me but the XM-177E1 didn't have the forward assist and the flash suppressor butted up against the front sight base (10.5 inches?). The XM-177E2 had the slightly longer barrel (11.5 or 12.5) and a forward assist. The older Small Arms of the World by Smith and Ezell should have the exact references.
According to other older references the CIA commercially purchased the XM-177s for MACV-SOG. I don't believe there were enough Air Force GAU-5s to have outfitted the task force (and Air Force wouldn't have had any reason to equip the ground force).
My dad served with Bull Simons in Laos as well as Dick Meadows and said they were great guys. Sergeant Major (retired) Jake Jakovenko is one of the greatest Americans I know.
In the Hurricane's Eye by Gregg Walker is also an interesting addition to Benjamin Shemmer's book and is worth reading.
Like The Great Raid (adapted from Ghost Soldiers) I think The Raid would make an AWESOME movie, especially enhanced with computer graphic imagery.
Toten Kopf
01-12-09, 16:13
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My guess on the Shorties is they were commercial-purchased XM-177s (slab-sided, no forward assists). My old brain cells are failing me but the XM-177E1 didn't have the forward assist and the flash suppressor butted up against the front sight base (10.5 inches?). The XM-177E2 had the slightly longer barrel (11.5 or 12.5) and a forward assist. The older Small Arms of the World by Smith and Ezell should have the exact references.
According to other older references the CIA commercially purchased the XM-177s for MACV-SOG. I don't believe there were enough Air Force GAU-5s to have outfitted the task force (and Air Force wouldn't have had any reason to equip the ground force).
My dad served with Bull Simons in Laos as well as Dick Meadows and said they were great guys. Sergeant Major (retired) Jake Jakovenko is one of the greatest Americans I know.
In the Hurricane's Eye by Gregg Walker is also an interesting addition to Benjamin Shemmer's book and is worth reading.
Like The Great Raid (adapted from Ghost Soldiers) I think The Raid would make an AWESOME movie, especially enhanced with computer graphic imagery.
The guns used were GAU-5A/As
XM177E1s have a forward assist.
Ezell is wrong on this subject. The page in Small Arms of the World is completely messed up on this matter with descriptions and pictures that do not match.
Please read the entire thread before posting.
Scott
Toten Kopf
01-12-09, 18:56
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By the way ... I got an Armson coming in this Friday. I'll get some range time within the next 10 days and will let Y'all know how it works out. :cool:
Congrats! You have also been entered into the Necropost of 2016 Hall of Fame. Winners will be announced at the end of the year.
By the way ... I got an Armson coming in this Friday. I'll get some range time within the next 10 days and will let Y'all know how it works out. :cool:
brushy bill
06-16-16, 00:52
....but don't feel bad....if you'd posted about this in another thread, you'd have been directed to other threads same topic. But, post in one, and it is necropsy. Interesting dynamic.
Congrats! You have also been entered into the Necropost of 2016 Hall of Fame. Winners will be announced at the end of the year.
OUTSTANDING .... I sincerely consider this a Badge of Honor ;)
Eurodriver
06-16-16, 06:57
....but don't feel bad....if you'd posted about this in another thread, you'd have been directed to other threads same topic. But, post in one, and it is necropsy. Interesting dynamic.
If GRA556 made a thread asking for advice about the optic then yes, maybe. But that's not what happened.
I can promise you that no one who posted prior to GRA556 has spent the last seven years anxiously awaiting a new member to give a range report.
:laugh::laugh: ... and here I was thinking I was being complimented because I'm checking out antiquated-concept equipment ... (???)
If Y'all would rather move this to another thread, or have me start a new thread I will. I simply clicked on a link from another site and it took me here to this thread and thereafter I just posted.
I'd like to suggest if this practice is bothersome then we might want to restrict access by other sites to these threads that are older.
I will still give a range report in the next several days. Right now I cant decide whether I try this on an ArmaLite AR10 carbine or an AR15 carbine. I'm open to suggestions, folks. :cool:
Please also be advised that some sites prefer you keep the order threads going and not create new threads on a same subject. Others sites of course, are opposite. My apologies for the confusion.
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