View Full Version : 1911's
Mr.Goodtimes
01-13-09, 22:28
Hey guys ive been kickin around the idea of buying my first handgun for the past few months. Im a broke college student so this is going to be my only handgun for a while. I was originally looking into getting a glock 20 but, every time i think of getting something else i always circle back to a 1911, i cant get away from it. 1911's are about as american as killin terrorists and apple pie. So, heres my question, what are some nice 1911's i can get for about 700 bucks? price cant exceed 800 bucks. Im looking for a reliable, accurate shtf 1911.
If you are only going to have one handgun and don't have a lot of money to spend, a 1911 is probably not a good choice. A gun purchased at that price will likely need some work to run well enough to be depended on. What about getting an M&P 45 (similar grip angle, can be had with strong side safety) and then a 1911 later on when you have the bank account to support it?
Suggest you do an exhaustive search of this forum. The issue of bargain 1911's comes up often and has been rehashed almost monthly.
Have a good idea in your mind of what you want the gun for: home defense, concealed carry, competition, plinking?
Mr.Goodtimes
01-13-09, 22:37
if i were to have to spend money on a $700 gun to make it run right then forget it, ill resort back to my old plan, but a heartless plastic pistol (glock or SW) I like the SW, i havent held one but they look nice, and their very affordable.
Mr.Goodtimes
01-13-09, 22:43
Todd, this said handgun would pretty much be an all of the above gun. Home defense, ccw, carbine/pistol course gun, some competition, weekly range plinker. Its going to be used heavily. Now for whatever its worth, im a 6'1" 176lb athlete, broad shoulders, large chest, so for ccw size doesent really matter.
I'd agree with Daveo then. For that kind of money the 1911 isn't the best choice, especially if it's your first gun.
Mr.Goodtimes
01-13-09, 22:57
i guess technically it would be my second, my dad and i shared his old sig 226 9mm. Ive put more rounds through that sig226 than i can even begin to guess, it taught me how to shoot a handgun. I was going to look into buying a new sig but i herd their QC has gone to hell. I think glock or SW is a good option for a out of the box reliable accurate shtf go to gun... would yall agree? i could buy a glock, do a trigger job on it and be gtg. if the bad stuff about sig is just internet mall ninja haters, then, ill certainly look seriously into a new/used sig.
MarshallDodge
01-13-09, 23:21
For that kind of money I really like the older Kimbers. I have a bone stock pre-series II Kimber that keeps running and running.
There are a few on gunbroker:
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=120563718
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=120425035
While you are there check out the Norinco 1911's.
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=120419255
They are usually selling in the $450 dollar range although I did see one sell locally for $350 recently. Very good steel and decent overall quality. You can start out with that and later on upgrade the sights and other items as you progress.
Whatever you purchase, get some good magazines for it. Personally I like Chip McCormick or Wilson.
Mr.Goodtimes
01-13-09, 23:36
thx dude! ill def look on the used market, as those kimbers looked nice! ill try and see what my local shop has to offer. and i dont think i could bring my self to buy a norinco anything.
i cant buy anything made by a commie, especially something as American as a 1911. every time we buy commie goods, a puppy gets killed... i dont want to be responsible for innocent puppy deaths.
MarshallDodge
01-14-09, 00:12
thx dude! ill def look on the used market, as those kimbers looked nice! ill try and see what my local shop has to offer. and i dont think i could bring my self to buy a norinco anything.
Sounds good, just stay away from the newer series II Kimbers, they seem to be hit and miss, and a firing pin safety system is un-1911. ;)
You mentioned the secondary market. Don't overlook older SIG/Sauer classics. The P228 is a great gun.
FromMyColdDeadHand
01-14-09, 01:37
How about a bastard child of a P226 and a 1911? There are Sig P220 models in Single action only. A buddy has one, and while it is no 1911, it has a sweet trigger and is more modern and user friendly than a 1911. (Like he was telling me that you can drop the mag, rack the slide to clear the chamber all with the safety on.) A $700 P220SAO will run more reliably than a $700 1911.
By all means, get a 1911. You'll learn more about how it works as it has all the different kinds of failures.
theJanitor
01-14-09, 01:54
For that kind of money the 1911 isn't the best choice, especially if it's your first gun.
for triple the money, you can have the 1911 you're looking for
wtf??
I can't believe the gun snobs here... if it's not a $800+ 1911
it's not going to shoot or be reliable???
I have bought 4 1911s for under $700
3 Rock Islands, and one Taurus PT1911
I have NEVER had a problem with ANY of them!!
They have ALWAYS gone bang when I pulled the triigger,
and have ALWAYS been ready to fire again..
Not one FTF or FTE with any of them...
I have another friend with 2 RIAs and he also has never had any problems
I'm not sure how a gun that costs twice as much could be any more reliable..
I have been looking at 1911s for a long time, and I can tell you I've felt
some pretty sloppy, slide to frame fits, with some poor barrel / bushing / slide
fits on some high dollar guns, where my RIAs are all tight!
Yes I have had some of the "expensive" ones..
I Just sold a Springfield Loaded, and I would have put any of my
lower priced guns up against it any day, in both accuracy and reliability
Last time we had 1911 day
There was a Sig 1911 Revolution, a Wilson Polymer frame wide body 1911, and a Springfield GI
that all had multiple problems, NONE of my lower priced ones did
and yes, they shoot just as well...
PLEASE do yourself a favor, and check out the forums over here
http://forum.m1911.org/forumdisplay.php?f=17
Check out both the RIA section, and the Taurus section for some real reviews from
some real owners, and yes a lot of them have higher priced models as well
so you can get some GOOD honest feedback!
Also, check out how 2 lower priced guns fared against the higher priced Wilson CQB, and Kimber Warrior
http://www.advancedtactical.com/sweeneyarticle.pdf
In other words, PLEASE do more research before swearing off 1911s!!
They are a GREAT design!!
John_Wayne777
01-14-09, 06:46
Hey guys ive been kickin around the idea of buying my first handgun for the past few months. Im a broke college student so this is going to be my only handgun for a while. I was originally looking into getting a glock 20 but, every time i think of getting something else i always circle back to a 1911, i cant get away from it. 1911's are about as american as killin terrorists and apple pie. So, heres my question, what are some nice 1911's i can get for about 700 bucks? price cant exceed 800 bucks. Im looking for a reliable, accurate shtf 1911.
1. While it's possible to find a 1911 that will run on the cheap, it is by no means easy, and even then maintaining it and keeping it running right isn't an easy feat.
2. .45 ACP is expensive.
3. 10mm is expensive and the G20 is a huge beast.
4. Stick to Glocks in 9mm as they have the best track record AND they are less expensive to feed than some firebreathing monster. Spend the saved money on more training, which is more important than anything else.
John_Wayne777
01-14-09, 06:50
wtf??
I can't believe the gun snobs here... if it's not a $800+ 1911
it's not going to shoot or be reliable???
It's entirely possible to find an 800 dollar 1911 that works. It's also very likely that you'll end up with a gun that doesn't work.
In other words, PLEASE do more research before swearing off 1911s!!
They are a GREAT design!!
1911's have some good points...
...but I will invoke the advice of a participant of this forum who has more operational experience with a 1911 both as a user of the weapon in nasty circumstances than anyone else I know and as a gunsmith and master 1911 builder:
1911's are enthusiasts handguns. They require specialized knowledge and usually a fair bit of money to obtain and keep in top working condition.
John_Wayne777
01-14-09, 06:53
thx dude! ill def look on the used market, as those kimbers looked nice!
Lots of Kimbers look nice...but they don't run very well. If you ask guys who see the most rounds go downrange every year what 1911 brand they see with the most problems, odds are the answer would be Kimber. There are some Kimbers that run great...but a good many of them have issues.
You'd be much better off with a 9mm Glock or M&P than a Kimber as your only handgun.
It's entirely possible to find an 800 dollar 1911 that works. It's also very likely that you'll end up with a gun that doesn't work.
1911's have some good points...
...but I will invoke the advice of a participant of this forum who has more operational experience with a 1911 both as a user of the weapon in nasty circumstances than anyone else I know and as a gunsmith and master 1911 builder:
1911's are enthusiasts handguns. They require specialized knowledge and usually a fair bit of money to obtain and keep in top working condition.
My friend and I and all the others must just be lucky to get all these guns that work right out of the box..
If I got one that needed work it would go straight back to the manufacturer
I love to customize, but it better work before I even start messing around with it.
My very first 1911 I built myself from an 80% frame..
At that point I had never even seen the inside of a 1911, and had only held one once..
I found prints, schematics, and went to town buying parts and doing all the reading I could find on 1911s.
There were a few local match guys at the range here when I went to shoot it for the first time, and they were impressed at how good it felt/was built and were shocked to find out that I had done it, and even more shocked that I had no experience with 1911's or smithing at that point..
I am not a big name, or make money doing it,
but I have a good understanding on what makes a 1911 run.
The only thing any of mine get is a cleaning after every time I
come back from a day of shooting..
It is as you said though, there are high dollar guns from big names that I have seen that are crap.
There are nice guns I have seen that were lower priced..
My advice is to look at each gun, and evaluate it on how well it's built, fit, finish, etc, not on name alone
PS... One of the guns I shoot best with is a G19, so as much as I love the 1911s, I can't fault the GLOCK idea
John_Wayne777
01-14-09, 07:41
My friend and I and all the others must just be lucky to get all these guns that work right out of the box..
With all due respect, your experience and your friend's experience doesn't really match up to the level of experience that's behind the advice I related earlier.
I heard Ken Hackathorn (a legendary 1911 guy) say with my own two ears: "1911's are like Ferarris. If you want one, you'd better know a good mechanic and you'd better bring money." That advice is based on DECADES of experience with the 1911 as a user and an instructor all the way back to the early Gunsite days.
With all due respect, your experience and your friend's experience doesn't really match up to the level of experience that's behind the advice I related earlier.
I heard Ken Hackathorn (a legendary 1911 guy) say with my own two ears: "1911's are like Ferarris. If you want one, you'd better know a good mechanic and you'd better bring money." That advice is based on DECADES of experience with the 1911 as a user and an instructor all the way back to the early Gunsite days.
Not a problem, and no offense taken.
I can only relate my own experiences, not the experience of others.
My experience with the 1911s that I have paid under $800 for have all been positive.
They all have never failed me in any fashion, That's all I can ask for in a gun, and
that's all I can vouch for, my own personal experience..
The 1911's that I have spent more than $800 have also all been positive,
Like I said, it don't matter to me what price range I happen to be shopping in at the time, I look them over before I buy them, and have turned a few away for seeing something I didn't like, both high and low dollar stuff, so maybe this is upping my percentage of working models..
And no offense to anyone, but CNC machining has upped percentage of good working 1911s across the board.. In the old days there were a LOT of machine changes, and a lot of people that worked on a gun.. If ANY one of those guys made a mistake, didn't have sharp tooling, had a shaving between the frame and clamp, etc, etc, it would carry on to the next step and the whole thing was off..
Now with the CNC machines doing the majority of the work with a single clamp, on a single machine......
things are a lot better all around these days, I think even the "experienced" guys would agree with that
while i can honestly say that i don't have that much experience with the 1911, the (2) cheap RIA 1911's i have have gone bang every time the trigger has been pulled,have i put 5k-10k rounds thru them,no but the many boxes of ammo that i have ,has never given me a problem,one of these days I'll have a Ed Brown or a Wilson gun,but until then,I'll sing the praise of the cheap 1911
Business_Casual
01-14-09, 08:41
This is the wrong forum for cheap 1911s.
This is the wrong forum for anecdotal evidence.
Is this the wrong forum for you?
M_P
It would be helpful if you quantify "never had a problem".
How many rounds? Documented, or at least a real estimate.
Firing schedule.
Maintenance schedule
Lubrication
Ammo
Mags
Etc
Many of the lower priced 1911's, or any gun for that matter, many run fine in the short run, and the manufacturer only plans on that.
Many will not be reliable or durable in the long run.
That is where the comments of Vickers, Hackathorn, Yam etc. come into play.
When multiple former members of the unit that has probably carried and shot more 1911's then anyone on earth, says.....Maybe not to the 1911, it might be worth listening to them.
As for the cheaper guns, what type of materials are they made out of, including the small parts, what kind of QC do they have, etc.
Fit and finish are not that important. "tight" really means nothing, Properly fit is what I'm looking for.
For a first and only pistol, get a G19 or an M&P and ammo, and training.
Bob
entrefal -- By mere dint of the fact that you built your own 1911 from parts, you are far more knowledgeable about how to keep them running than 99% of the 1911 owners out there. I think you need to factor that in.
Did you do any tuning or touching up to your RIA's or Taurus when you got them, or are they 100% bone stock?
Much of the problem is perspective.
5000 rounds may be alot to you and me, it may be a weeks training for others.
I've seen many "professionals", perhaps we should skip that definition, but many of them don't shoot as much as they think they do.
Again alot of people are happy to report there new found blaster has 200 flawless rounds thru it. Many people have what LAV termed "malfunction ammnesia", PR has noted this also, they will watch a student clear malfunction after malfunction, and have problems all thru class, then claim they"never had a problem".
Under the lighter firing schedules, with ball ammo, and reletively low round counts, sure the lower guns may be great, but turn up the heat on them, and see what happends, same as with the AR's, as Todd pointed out.
I for one would prefer not to take my chances on the lower quality guns.
As for the real experts, do you mean to say that Vickers, HAckathorn and Yam, aren't real experts? Howe, and Smith are real experts?
Bob
Many people have what LAV termed "malfunction ammnesia",
Very true. Same goes for round counts. The number of people who guesstimate their round counts with the following math:
(most rounds I ever fired in a week) * 52 weeks in a year * # years owned the gun = current round count
... never ceases to amaze me. Either show me some kind of shooting log, some method of tracking used ammo (box tops, primer trays, whatever), or I assume your round count is somewhere in the neighborhood of 25% what's actually claimed.
entrefal -- By mere dint of the fact that you built your own 1911 from parts, you are far more knowledgeable about how to keep them running than 99% of the 1911 owners out there. I think you need to factor that in.
Did you do any tuning or touching up to your RIA's or Taurus when you got them, or are they 100% bone stock?
Thanks.
It was a fun learning experience, and required a bunch of hand fitting the parts,
but what better way to learn your weapon.
I do know there are plenty of people that can not break down their weapon for cleaning, much less completely tear one down, so I may be ahead of the curve.
One of the RIAs
(My current workhorse I take every time out, while some of the others sit at home)
has a new hammer, trigger, and sear,and coated frame...oh, and a grip, lol
The "Mid" length RIA (4" barrel instead of the usual 4.25")
is all stock right down to the grips
The Taurus is all stock other than the grips, but the round count is still low on that one.
Very true. Same goes for round counts. The number of people who guesstimate their round counts with the following math:
(most rounds I ever fired in a week) * 52 weeks in a year * # years owned the gun = current round count
... never ceases to amaze me. Either show me some kind of shooting log, some method of tracking used ammo (box tops, primer trays, whatever), or I assume your round count is somewhere in the neighborhood of 25% what's actually claimed.
Lol, than multiply all my previous round counts by about 12 ;)
Much of the problem is perspective.
5000 rounds may be alot to you and me, it may be a weeks training for others.
Under the lighter firing schedules, with ball ammo, and reletively low round counts, sure the lower guns may be great, but turn up the heat on them, and see what happends, same as with the AR's, as Todd pointed out.
I for one would prefer not to take my chances on the lower quality guns.
Bob
Now you do have a valid point there,
it's like the Doctors when they ask you to rate your pain from 1-10
well if the worst pain a person has ever had was a small splinter
and they get a paper cut between their toes, that's going to be a 10
while that same pain might be a 3 to someone that broke their back
(that's my reference for a #10 at this point in life)
It's all relative.
And by your standards mine are probably babied,
I wish I could shoot more, I just don't have the means to do so
If I could I would :(
You are correct that I do shoot primarily ball ammo so that
also is probably a factor in how well mine seem to run, but if that's all
I really plan to shoot from it, it's not a problem for me..
I just shoot for fun.. sorry :(
One of the RIAs
(My current workhorse I take every time out, while some of the others sit at home)
has a new hammer, trigger, and sear,and coated frame...oh, and a grip, lol
The "Mid" length RIA (4" barrel instead of the usual 4.25")
is all stock right down to the grips
The Taurus is all stock other than the grips, but the round count is still low on that one.
I think that's important info. I'd make the point that the first gun has been extensively modified so it's not really a valid test of the RIA as a true "$800" gun. But if the second one has a similar round count and is completely stock, it's definitely a useful datapoint.
theJanitor
01-14-09, 10:27
sometimes we need to agree on how to agree (or how to disagree). everyone has a different perspective when evaluating the "performance" of a gun, whether it be about reliability, accuracy, etc.
so let's look to an evaluation schedule that we can deem appropriate for the intended use of a fighting 1911. I believe the Springer PRO that the FBI HRT spec'd needed to go 2500 rounds without a malfunction, among other things. How many of OUR 1911's can say that? that's why the consensus about top notch 1911's is what it is.
for reference: i currently own 1911's from the Kimber Custom Shop, Les Baer, Frank Glenn, Bob Miller, etc. And after owning a dozen before that, from Gold Cups to springer loadeds, with a REALISTIC summary of all the malfunctions i have encountered, i would not trust my life to a bone stock, $800 gun from the standard parts bin.
MarshallDodge
01-14-09, 10:34
I guess we have really hijacked Mr. Goodtimes thread. :eek:
Mr. Goodtimes, if you want to go down the building your own route, check out Fusion. You won't save a lot but you will have a greater knowledge of how the gun works.
Here is one I am building on a Fusion frame. This photo was just before test firing. Not a real test but it shot two mags of 200 grain LRN right off the bat. It hicupped on a mag of semi wadcutters so I need to clean up the feed ramp.
http://home.comcast.net/~fun2shoot/1911/fuscolt4.jpg
Here it is partially taken down to do a little more fitting and try on a set of grips that a friend and I made for it. The wood is Russian Olive, considered a weed around here.
http://home.comcast.net/~fun2shoot/1911/fuscoltgrips2.jpg
Frame is still in the white. I have not decided whether to keep it tu-tone or go combat style with a matte black finish.
I think that's important info. I'd make the point that the first gun has been extensively modified so it's not really a valid test of the RIA as a true "$800" gun. But if the second one has a similar round count and is completely stock, it's definitely a useful datapoint.
Another valid point.
I'm not sure off the top of my head, but I would guess that the worked one has about 2000-2500 more rounds through it than the unworked one as it's older and the one I never fail to grab..
although I have been finding myself grabbing the midlength every time out lately.. I find myself really liking the 4" barrel..
I guess my RIAs (and possibly Taurus) are like my Road Runner...
Fun to drive on weekends, and has not left me stranded
(OK, the Road Runner did need a tow once when I sheared the yolk off the rearend horsing around)
But as a daily driver/shooter I might pick something different if I could afford it.
He says he's a poor college student, so I'm sure he's not going to be shooting 2000 rounds over 3 day classes or anything of the sort..
I guess I can say that if you're looking for something that will hit what your aiming at, go bang every time,
***BUT*** you are not going to be shooting over 800 rounds at a time and those rounds consist of primarily ball ammo
You MAY be able to find something in the 1911 variety for under $800
I've already said it and I still do agree with you that a G19 would be the perfect choice as an only handgun, easy to maintain, very good shooter, and would top my list
(yes over a 1911)
sometimes we need to agree on how to agree (or how to disagree). everyone has a different perspective when evaluating the "performance" of a gun, whether it be about reliability, accuracy, etc.
Yup, I would have to agree with that after this thread :D
One thing that I can say about this site,
It is nice to see a level of maturity around here where we can disagree,
go back and forth a few times, and come to an understanding
(Or at least see another point of view)
without the silly name calling, backhanded remarks,
and general level of immaturity that is on some other sites
This place kept a level of respect that was nice
Thanks
:cool:
Hi, my name is Gary and I just learned today in this thread that I am a "gun snob".
In this thread I learned that sub $1000 dollar 1911's with poor quality parts and sub-standard build efforts are just as reliable, durable, and can be equally counted on to save my life as more expensive, properly fitted 1911's that cost over $2500. I will probably need to seek psychiatric help for this issue, because I am clearly out of touch with reality, since the new information in this thread about 1911's is completely contrary to my 20+ years of military and LE experience using and observing numerous pistols firing many hundreds of thousands of rounds.
I've carried a 1911 for 25 years and have stated numerous times that a properly customized 5" steel-frame single-stack 1911 in .45 ACP is a superb, unparalleled choice for the dedicated user willing to spend a significant amount of money to get it properly initially set-up and considerable time to maintain it. In fact, I just re-qualified with the 1911 and G19 this week. Yet if I didn't have 25 years already invested with the 1911, I'd probably go with a .40 M&P w/ambi safety (or .45 M&P if effected by asinine laws restricting magazine capacity)... When looking at all the factors of picking a hard-use pistol, I truly believe that if someone wants a 1911 for serious use, the minimum level of quality for a duty/carry weapon is the SA Pro model (either PC9111 or PC9111LR if you want a light rail) or equivalent; for folks not willing to invest that much into the weapon system, don't get a 1911. End of Story. FWIW, current Kimbers generally have not performed well, especially those utilizing the Swartz type firing pin safety. For folks who want a .45 ACP pistol, but don't want to invest the funds and effort into getting a good 1911, they would be better served with a S&W .45 ACP M&P or HK45. Recent Sig's, especially the P220's have had numerous issues. Likewise, G21's also have a somewhat checkered history--particularly with several west coast LE agencies that have reported significant problems. For that matter a 9 mm Glock or M&P would probably work for 90% of shooters service pistol needs...
Yup, I would have to agree with that after this thread :D
One thing that I can say about this site,
It is nice to see a level of maturity around here where we can disagree,
go back and forth a few times, and come to an understanding
(Or at least see another point of view)
without the silly name calling, backhanded remarks,
and general level of immaturity that is on some other sites
This place kept a level of respect that was nice
Thanks
:cool:
Good thing I didn't list Sarcasm :p
I will probably need to seek psychiatric help for this issue
(...)
I've carried a 1911 for 25 years
Chicken. Egg.
:p
I've carried a 1911 for 25 years
You need to "get over the romance", Sir! :eek:
You need to "get over the romance", Sir! :eek:
Thats my line!
Bob
I agree in principle that the lower priced 1911's, especially those filled with MIM parts and produced largely by mass production with minimal hand-fitting, are probably not pistols to entrust one's life to.
As with all things, it seems like there may be a few exceptions to the "rule". There are a few instances where--if a person does your homework--you may be able to find a 1911 that will not be as costly as, say, a Wilson or an Ed Brown, and yet can be reliable and durable enough for duty usage.
A couple of examples:
* Dan Wesson 1911's. The Pointman, the bobtailed Commander, and the Valor, are all available in the $900 to $1200 range, and yet these use all quality parts and hand-fitting, with no MIM. Would they be as mechanically reliable and durable as say a Wilson or an Ed Brown? I honestly don't know, but they are using hand-fitted parts from companies like Ed Brown, and they are getting rave reviews for both performance and reliability. I think these pistols are excellent quality and certainly would be worth testing for possible duty usage. Though I don't know much about them, I have also heard that the improved Sig 1911's may now be in this category of outstanding quality, lower-priced 1911's. They use high quality parts, and also receive a lot of hand-fitting.
* The 3 Springfield "Operator" models (TRP, MC Operator, LW Operator): Hilton Yam mentions these Operator pistols on his 10-8 site (http://10-8performance.com/id8.html) and forums as having potential for duty usage. They are all available in the $1000 to $1350 range on the street, and though they do use MIM parts, they use quality MIM, and especially in the case of the TRP, they receive some extra hand-fitting to improve reliability. For some applications, such as a beavertail grip safety for instance, there is no problem with using quality MIM parts, and you can still have a very high quality and reliable pistol that uses them.
An approach that I have tried recently was to buy an Operator, and then have it customized by the Springfield Custom shop. They did a "reliability" package on it, doing things such as tuning the safeties and trigger, reaming barrel, polishing ramp, and so on. They also swapped out the critical internal MIM parts, replacing with premium steel parts (for example: the plunger, staked; the ejector, pinned; the extractor; the slide stop; the FPS; etc.). Finally, I had them checker the front strap. I managed to get some of the work covered under warranty, the rest I paid for. Bottom line: for about $1350, I have a Springfield Operator that Dave Williams (of Springfield Custom) tells me should be reliable enough for duty usage. In fact, it should be as mechanically reliable as a Custom Shop 1911, it's just that it won't have as nice a finish, or be as cosmetically well fitted in every detail.
Can these pistols be as reliable/durable as more high end ones? I honestly don't know, it remains to be seen. But some folks in the industry are saying that, at least in the case of the Springfield Operator models, they think they can do the job. Whether they can directly out of the box, I don't know, but with a modest amount of tuning and reliability work, I feel pretty confident with my LW Operator.
I still agree with the general points that 1911's are simply more expensive to buy, and to keep running reliably, versus modern plastic pistols. But there may just be a FEW options where a person can still get a reliable 1911 (sufficient for duty usage) set up for somewhere in the $1000 to $1400 range. From what I can see, it would be pretty hard to pull it off for much less though, unless you know someone competent who can do all the fitting/tuning work for free.
I do know that last time out my friends new Stainless Sig Revolution
had a few FTFs, I'll have to ask him if he's looked into what the problem was yet..
Also, maybe it's just me, but this kid says he is a poor college student,
does he or 99% of us need a "service duty" pistol?
Y
es it would be nice to have $2500 to drop on a "service duty"
pistol, but 99% of us can't afford and don't need one..
We just want something that hits what we are firing at
and don't fail on us with "normal" working class usage..
Sounds like the OP and I are in a different class.. we won't be out in battle,
or shooting 3000 rounds a weekend
(as much as I would like to I can't afford that, and I doubt a "poor college student" could either)
So OP.. Like they said, for us po' folk, better stick to a G19, it won't let you down
Entrefal, that's a valid point. If it's just a plinker, or a range or target pistol, then it doesn't have to rise to the level of "duty reliability."
However, just looking back at the thread, I noticed the OP said this: "Todd, this said handgun would pretty much be an all of the above gun. Home defense, ccw, carbine/pistol course gun, some competition, weekly range plinker. Its going to be used heavily."
If he's relying on it for CCW and self-defense, I assume he would want high enough reliability to entrust his life to. For most people, a pistol capable of "duty usage" meets that level of reliability. When it's your life at stake, I'm not sure you'd want something LESS reliable. But I agree, if it's just a range pistol or plinker, there's no need to spend to any targeted amount. He can get something in the $500 to $600 range that would be a good starter (like a SA Milspec) and that he could always build on later, if he wants to bring up the reliability level for CCW.
Thats my line!
Bob
It is? :confused:
Even so... It can't be repeated enough!
Entrefal, that's a valid point. If it's just a plinker, or a range or target pistol, then it doesn't have to rise to the level of "duty reliability."
However, just looking back at the thread, I noticed the OP said this: "Todd, this said handgun would pretty much be an all of the above gun. Home defense, ccw, carbine/pistol course gun, some competition, weekly range plinker. Its going to be used heavily."
If he's relying on it for CCW and self-defense, I assume he would want high enough reliability to entrust his life to. For most people, a pistol capable of "duty usage" meets that level of reliability. When it's your life at stake, I'm not sure you'd want something LESS reliable. But I agree, if it's just a range pistol or plinker, there's no need to spend to any targeted amount. He can get something in the $500 to $600 range that would be a good starter (like a SA Milspec) and that he could always build on later, if he wants to bring up the reliability level for CCW.
I missed or forgot about his list, as it was not in the original post,
That's a long list for someone who's poor, I can't afford to do all that, lol
The original post asked about dependable SHTF pistol,
if the SHTF than if he has any gun, he has the means to acquire another
......Battlefield pickups anyone? lol
If all the above is required, I still go back to agreeing with a G19 as a good all around pistol
Jack_Stroker
01-14-09, 13:46
I've got two Springfield TRP 1911's. I've got a Springfield Armory TRP SS and a Springfield TRP Operator. I've never had any problems with them from day one. I didn't have to do any "reliability" upgrades to make them work out of the box. They always have. Why do people assume that 1911's need "reliability upgrades" done to them to make them reliable? I carry the Springfield Armory TRP SS every day as my primary concealed carry weapon. It goes bang everytime I pull the trigger. I'd agree that some 1911's seem to need a break in period, and I'd agree that each of them needs to be tested to ensure reliability but I think that its BS to assume that all 1911's need gunsmithing to be made reliable unless the 1911 in question happens to be a $2,000 weapon such as something from Wilson Combat or another premium 1911 builder.
One issue with the platform is that many of the guns out there are built to be match accurate and while they have some features that lend themselves to being considered for combat, law enforcement, concealed carry use or whatever, they are probably too tight for their own good. Their tight tolerances make them excellent match guns but those tight tolerances can screw with reliability. Tight tolerances can make feeding certain ammunition difficult, magazine catches are often too stiff for their own good at first, the weapons are not very tolerant of being dirty, etc. Once they losen up after having had a couple thousand rounds through them, some of the experiences people have at first dissappear. This goes with my statement concerning some 1911's needing a break in period to be reliable. Not every gun is this way, but it seems to me that quite a few of them are. I've experienced 1911's that were good to go out of the box and still functioned with thousands of rounds through them, and I've seen some that needed 500 rounds or more before minor issues stopped occuring.
I've had about 5 1911's now. I only have three of them currently.
Springfield Armory Tactical Response Pistol (Stainless Steel) -Perfectly reliable from day one. Approxamate round count is over 3,000 rounds.
Springfield Armory Tactical Response Pistol Operator -Perfectly reliable from day one. Approxamate round count is over 1,500 rounds.
Springfield Armory Loaded Champion 4" -Note quite reliable out of the box. This gun required some break in. I had some issues with the slide stop on some magazines initially, but after awhile I resolved those issues. After about 300 rounds the problems stopped. It now has about 4,000 rounds through it without any issues.
Springfield Armory G.I. Champion 4" -This one tried my patience severely at first. The slide stop wouldn't work with anything but the Springfield and Kimber basic factory magazines. I also had a few failures to feed and one or two failures to eject out of the first 100 or 200 rounds. After about 500 rounds or so, the pistol started behaving correctly, and from that point on it worked flawlessly with my Wilson Combat 47D magazines.
Kimber Custom II Stainless -Flawless from day one. The only issues I had with this gun were with Blazer Aluminum ammunition. I had about 10 rounds or so give me issues out of 50. Otherwise it ate anything I fed it and gave me no further issues. I had probably 3,000 rounds through it when I sold it.
I'm not saying that all 1911's are perfect, but I don't think it is fair to assume that they aren't fit for duty until they go through a gun smith first. That sounds like bullshit to me.
Mr.Goodtimes
01-14-09, 14:25
Guys thanks a million for all your input and knowledge yall threw into my thread! based on the responses ive got, ive decided im going with a g19.
Yes im a broke college student... no i dont have alot of money to blow. i do however save money real well. Ill take this pistol to a course or two down the road, mabey over the summers when school is out and im working more hours. Also, when me and my dad go shoot, he buys the ammo. Aside from the fact that i dont have 2k to spend up front on a 1911, after sitting down and thinking rationally, i dont know why i would want to spend 2k on a handgun when i can get something thats more reliable, more accurate then ill ever need, doesent nead alot of maintaining and constant upkeep, and holds almost three times as much ammo; all at less than 1/4 the price.
As for if the shtf and picking up weapons, yes, thats certainly an option and a good idea, however, i seem to sort of bond with my weapons, they become part of me... kind of like an old truck ya know?
What mostly appeals to me about 1911's is their personality, there is alot of history behind them, but, they are what they are, a hobby gun. What i want is a combat pistol. The g19 def seems like quite possibly, the ultimate combat handgun.
What mostly appeals to me about 1911's is their personality, there is alot of history behind them, but, they are what they are, a hobby gun. What i want is a combat pistol. The g19 def seems like quite possibly, the ultimate combat handgun.
Good choice. Also, consider the reverse appeal of a Glock that has no soul or personality and is just a mindless machine. You have a functional cookie cutter gun that can be easily replaced if lost, stolen, damaged, or eaten by a sea monster named Bernard.
Jack_Stroker
01-14-09, 15:51
Good choice. Also, consider the reverse appeal of a Glock that has no soul or personality and is just a mindless machine. You have a functional cookie cutter gun that can be easily replaced if lost, stolen, damaged, or eaten by a sea monster named Bernard.
A good point.
It is? :confused:
Even so... It can't be repeated enough!
That's basically what I said on another forum, that got me banned, or led to it.
I can't tell if your being sarcastic or not, but I sure wasn't. A Lot of people want them for no other reason then the coolness of having a 1911. They romanticize the gun, because of its long service, Jeff Cooper, hi speed units, etc etc.
most of those shooters, can't really take advantage of a 1911.
Bob
I've got two Springfield TRP 1911's. I've got a Springfield Armory TRP SS and a Springfield TRP Operator. I've never had any problems with them from day one. I didn't have to do any "reliability" upgrades to make them work out of the box. They always have. Why do people assume that 1911's need "reliability upgrades" done to them to make them reliable? I carry the Springfield Armory TRP SS every day as my primary concealed carry weapon. It goes bang everytime I pull the trigger. I'd agree that some 1911's seem to need a break in period, and I'd agree that each of them needs to be tested to ensure reliability but I think that its BS to assume that all 1911's need gunsmithing to be made reliable unless the 1911 in question happens to be a $2,000 weapon such as something from Wilson Combat or another premium 1911 builder.
One issue with the platform is that many of the guns out there are built to be match accurate and while they have some features that lend themselves to being considered for combat, law enforcement, concealed carry use or whatever, they are probably too tight for their own good. Their tight tolerances make them excellent match guns but those tight tolerances can screw with reliability. Tight tolerances can make feeding certain ammunition difficult, magazine catches are often too stiff for their own good at first, the weapons are not very tolerant of being dirty, etc. Once they losen up after having had a couple thousand rounds through them, some of the experiences people have at first dissappear. This goes with my statement concerning some 1911's needing a break in period to be reliable. Not every gun is this way, but it seems to me that quite a few of them are. I've experienced 1911's that were good to go out of the box and still functioned with thousands of rounds through them, and I've seen some that needed 500 rounds or more before minor issues stopped occuring.
I've had about 5 1911's now. I only have three of them currently.
Springfield Armory Tactical Response Pistol (Stainless Steel) -Perfectly reliable from day one. Approxamate round count is over 3,000 rounds.
Springfield Armory Tactical Response Pistol Operator -Perfectly reliable from day one. Approxamate round count is over 1,500 rounds.
Springfield Armory Loaded Champion 4" -Note quite reliable out of the box. This gun required some break in. I had some issues with the slide stop on some magazines initially, but after awhile I resolved those issues. After about 300 rounds the problems stopped. It now has about 4,000 rounds through it without any issues.
Springfield Armory G.I. Champion 4" -This one tried my patience severely at first. The slide stop wouldn't work with anything but the Springfield and Kimber basic factory magazines. I also had a few failures to feed and one or two failures to eject out of the first 100 or 200 rounds. After about 500 rounds or so, the pistol started behaving correctly, and from that point on it worked flawlessly with my Wilson Combat 47D magazines.
Kimber Custom II Stainless -Flawless from day one. The only issues I had with this gun were with Blazer Aluminum ammunition. I had about 10 rounds or so give me issues out of 50. Otherwise it ate anything I fed it and gave me no further issues. I had probably 3,000 rounds through it when I sold it.
I'm not saying that all 1911's are perfect, but I don't think it is fair to assume that they aren't fit for duty until they go through a gun smith first. That sounds like bullshit to me.
I don't think you need to spend 2 grand, or send it to a smith. But you have to start with a quality gun, and usually 500 don't get it. Not in the long run.
5 guns is not a very large sample, and a fairly limited round count over those 5.
From what I understand the TRP is a good gun, in 1-1200 range anyway. And, this where most of the good 1911's start.
Even LAV stated you can get a Loaded(and I assume a TRP) and spend a few hundred bucks massaging it, and be good to go.
Again, remember a lot of what he teaches, believes, and does to a 1911 is based on his long term experience with the gun, in combat conditions, and high round counts. So you may never see or appreciate the benefits of what he does/recommends.
And just so we are tracking, as much as I'd like to claim it, I'm not in the high round count category. But, to quote PR, "I don't aspire to mediocrity". So I try and get the best I can.
Bob
Mr.Goodtimes
01-14-09, 16:01
Good choice. Also, consider the reverse appeal of a Glock that has no soul or personality and is just a mindless machine. You have a functional cookie cutter gun that can be easily replaced if lost, stolen, damaged, or eaten by a sea monster named Bernard.
that reverse appeal also appealed to me as well (if that makes sense) i know if i have to use this thing in a self defense scenario, no matter how right i am, the cops are going to confiscate it as evidence, id much rather lose a 450 dollar souless glock then the 2k dollar 1911 that took me 6months to build and hand fit from scratch. I can give a glock enough personality to make it feel like mine (do some grip work, trigger job, sights, shoot it, sleep with it) but at the end of the day, i can still throw it away if i have to and not lose any sleep over it. I guess it would be sort of equivalent to dating a girl you know messes around and then finding out she cheated on you.
That being said, im not for free handouts, i dont agree in taking checks from the government, but, i (no jinx) should be getting a pretty fat tax refund this year from the gov. so instead of me shredding that check and having the money go to redecorating nancy pelosi's office, i think ill use it to buy a glock and then throw the rest into the great American economy in the form of parts for my AR-15... probably a PWS fcs556 compensator, sbr upper and get a m41000 to go along (all things that will make a liberal sick). the 400 dollars in taxes makes me sick too though... guess the gov gets some of their tax money back right away.
that reverse appeal also appealed to me as well (if that makes sense) i know if i have to use this thing in a self defense scenario, no matter how right i am, the cops are going to confiscate it as evidence, id much rather lose a 450 dollar souless glock then the 2k dollar 1911 that took me 6months to build and hand fit from scratch. I can give a glock enough personality to make it feel like mine (do some grip work, trigger job, sights, shoot it, sleep with it) but at the end of the day, i can still throw it away if i have to and not lose any sleep over it. I guess it would be sort of equivalent to dating a girl you know messes around and then finding out she cheated on you.
Lol,
A few years ago I had a 3rd gen G19 that was my truck gun, and I had that same thinking,
and decided if I ever needed to use it and they were going to "hold" one
I would rather something a bit cheaper I then picked up another G19...
this time a used 2nd gen that then became my truck gun :)
I'm not saying that all 1911's are perfect, but I don't think it is fair to assume that they aren't fit for duty until they go through a gun smith first. That sounds like bullshit to me.
If you are referring to my post, I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion that I think these 1911's are unreliable unless they go through a gunsmith first. I am not saying that at all. In case you forget, I was the one who listed these very models as EXAMPLES of 1911's that are less expensive than high-end guns, and yet have been cited by Hilton as being adequate for duty usage. And I think it is also possible that the new Dan Wesson models fit into this category.
What I did say was I "don't know" if they're reliable enough for duty out of the box. I think they likely are fine (because of the guys who have recommended them), and that's why I listed them as examples of 1911's to consider. But for myself, I didn't want to leave it to chance. So I took the extra step to have some additional tuning and reliability work done on my LW Operator. This was on the recommendation of Dave Williams, who runs the Custom Shop at Springfield, when I asked what I could do to ensure the maximum reliability of the pistol, in addition to the tuning work I had already had done. I wanted to replace the critical internal parts, such as FPS, plunger, extractor, ejector, and slide stop, with premium steel parts.
The point of listing that extra work was, I was illustrating that you could get one of these somewhat lower-priced 1911's, and EVEN IF you wanted or needed some extra work done, you could get it done and still have a pretty reasonably priced, very reliable 1911. For me, it's worth the few extra bucks to get the additional work. It gives you peace of mind, and you get a somewhat nicer running 1911. Is it strictly necessary? No. Is it worthwhile? Absolutely.
Jack_Stroker
01-14-09, 19:50
If you are referring to my post, I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion that I think these 1911's are unreliable unless they go through a gunsmith first. I am not saying that at all. In case you forget, I was the one who listed these very models as EXAMPLES of 1911's that are less expensive than high-end guns, and yet have been cited by Hilton as being adequate for duty usage. And I think it is also possible that the new Dan Wesson models fit into this category.
What I did say was I "don't know" if they're reliable enough for duty out of the box. I think they likely are fine (because of the guys who have recommended them), and that's why I listed them as examples of 1911's to consider. But for myself, I didn't want to leave it to chance. So I took the extra step to have some additional tuning and reliability work done on my LW Operator. This was on the recommendation of Dave Williams, who runs the Custom Shop at Springfield, when I asked what I could do to ensure the maximum reliability of the pistol, in addition to the tuning work I had already had done. I wanted to replace the critical internal parts, such as FPS, plunger, extractor, ejector, and slide stop, with premium steel parts.
The point of listing that extra work was, I was illustrating that you could get one of these somewhat lower-priced 1911's, and EVEN IF you wanted or needed some extra work done, you could get it done and still have a pretty reasonably priced, very reliable 1911. For me, it's worth the few extra bucks to get the additional work. It gives you peace of mind, and you get a somewhat nicer running 1911. Is it strictly necessary? No. Is it worthwhile? Absolutely.
Fair enough. I suppose I may have taken your post out of context.
Recent Sig's, especially the P220's have had numerous issues.
FWIW, I've personally seen a P239, and a P229 have their take-down lever's break...both guns were manufactured about 1 year ago. They were either 9mm or .40...I don't remember.
Funny when you go to clean a gun...then when you rotate the take-down lever, it rotates past 90, and the slide won't come off. Both guns were WELL used rentals, FWIW.
Back to 1911's.
There was a well reported and widespread issue with SIG takedown levers about a year ago. My understanding is that it's resolved now. Basically, they switched parts suppliers and the new (cheaper) guy cut some corners.
What mostly appeals to me about 1911's is their personality, there is alot of history behind them, but, they are what they are, a hobby gun.
Not quite. Depicting 1911's as just expensive toys, or hobby guns, would be a tragic mistake I think. Actually DocGKR put it better than I can in his earlier post:
"I've carried a 1911 for 25 years and have stated numerous times that a properly customized 5" steel-frame single-stack 1911 in .45 ACP is a superb, unparalleled choice for the dedicated user willing to spend a significant amount of money to get it properly initially set-up and considerable time to maintain it."
As he says, I think a well tuned 1911 is pretty hard to beat for a combat handgun, comparing it to the other popular semiauto platforms today. The trigger on a nice 1911 is absolutely unmatched by any other pistol today, for instance. But for a lot of folks, if the expense or maintenance are prohibitive, it's more convenient to go with a modern design. There's nothing wrong with that either. For myself, I just split the difference and get both!
I agree with most of what's been said about the 1911, I own 2, and would never consider carrying either one unless they have been to a decent 'smith for a reliabilty upgrade..That said, there are too many pistols that run right out of the box and really need nothing other than cleaning and ammo, and I myself, prefer something that runs out of the box, and dosen't need a trip to a 'smith to bring it up to "useful" status... This narrows the field considerably...So far the list of pistolsI've tried and gotten rid because they did'nt fit this critera of is getting longer..
CZ85b; lousy trigger in either mode, (SA/DA) never improved, slide stop spring wore out at about the 1200rnd mark, replaced it myself and it was a PITA, only one source of parts (CZ-USA) no aftermarket support sold..
Springfield XD;...Mag springs wore out quickly (under1000rnds) replaced with AGP 20%stronger springs, refused to feed LSWC's parts hard to get ,little aftermarket support. Sold
S&W M&P 45;..I'm on the fence with one...Dispite all the gushing and rave reviews, my experience with it has been dismal, The stock trigger is horrid only to get broken in to a little less horrid, after shooting 450-500 rnds through it I still shoot low/left with it, and only if take slow deliberate aim, watching my trigger control, can I get any accuracy out of it. This is unacceaptable for a CCW, which was what it was intended for. Out of 14 handguns I own,the M&P has proven to be the most diffcult to shoot well with, despite it's reliabilty, (it'll feed any type of ammo) not being able to hit what I aim at is frustrating, and if there is no improvement it'll go down the road just like the others...
Pistols to consider under $700;
Glock, cheap, available, parts easily available, reasonably accurate, lots of aftermarket support.
Beretta 92 series; police trade in's are cheap, these are accurate, very reliable. parts are easily available, I would suggest a 92 compact for a CCW they're smaller that a standard 92 the compact will still give you 13rnds of 9mm. Compact mags are kinda pricy,and in a pinch fullsize M92 mags will fit in a M92 compact. There are few sight options for the 92 series as the front sight is part of the slide..
HK USP compact; (9mm or.45)
Built like a tank, parts are harder to get, but not impossible, the up side is they don't break very often, can be found used for around $5-600 these are usually very accurate handguns, and were basically designed for hard use.There are several aftermarket sight options for the USP series.I'd keep my eyes open for a used one with a LEM trigger already installed. Downsides..mags are expensive, and as mentioned above, parts can be diffcult to get in a timely fashion, hopefully HK's new facilty in Georiga, will correct some of the parts availabilty problems of the past, My understanding is that Customer service has already been greatly improved.
Any S&W revolver in good shape..
These can be had in a wide price, caliber,barrel legnth, sight option, range, they are usually accurate, and have decent triggers I'd guess that about 70% of these for sale have very little actual use on them, having spent most of their time in a drawer somewhere...
Jack_Stroker
01-15-09, 10:54
I agree with most of what's been said about the 1911, I own 2, and would never consider carrying either one unless they have been to a decent 'smith for a reliabilty upgrade..That said, there are too many pistols that run right out of the box and really need nothing other than cleaning and ammo, and I myself, prefer something that runs out of the box, and dosen't need a trip to a 'smith to bring it up to "useful" status... This narrows the field considerably...So far the list of pistolsI've tried and gotten rid because they did'nt fit this critera of is getting longer..
CZ85b; lousy trigger in either mode, (SA/DA) never improved, slide stop spring wore out at about the 1200rnd mark, replaced it myself and it was a PITA, only one source of parts (CZ-USA) no aftermarket support sold..
Springfield XD;...Mag springs wore out quickly (under1000rnds) replaced with AGP 20%stronger springs, refused to feed LSWC's parts hard to get ,little aftermarket support. Sold
S&W M&P 45;..I'm on the fence with one...Dispite all the gushing and rave reviews, my experience with it has been dismal, The stock trigger is horrid only to get broken in to a little less horrid, after shooting 450-500 rnds through it I still shoot low/left with it, and only if take slow deliberate aim, watching my trigger control, can I get any accuracy out of it. This is unacceaptable for a CCW, which was what it was intended for. Out of 14 handguns I own,the M&P has proven to be the most diffcult to shoot well with, despite it's reliabilty, (it'll feed any type of ammo) not being able to hit what I aim at is frustrating, and if there is no improvement it'll go down the road just like the others...
Pistols to consider under $700;
Glock, cheap, available, parts easily available, reasonably accurate, lots of aftermarket support.
Beretta 92 series; police trade in's are cheap, these are accurate, very reliable. parts are easily available, I would suggest a 92 compact for a CCW they're smaller that a standard 92 the compact will still give you 13rnds of 9mm. Compact mags are kinda pricy,and in a pinch fullsize M92 mags will fit in a M92 compact. There are few sight options for the 92 series as the front sight is part of the slide..
HK USP compact; (9mm or.45)
Built like a tank, parts are harder to get, but not impossible, the up side is they don't break very often, can be found used for around $5-600 these are usually very accurate handguns, and were basically designed for hard use.There are several aftermarket sight options for the USP series.I'd keep my eyes open for a used one with a LEM trigger already installed. Downsides..mags are expensive, and as mentioned above, parts can be diffcult to get in a timely fashion, hopefully HK's new facilty in Georiga, will correct some of the parts availabilty problems of the past, My understanding is that Customer service has already been greatly improved.
Any S&W revolver in good shape..
These can be had in a wide price, caliber,barrel legnth, sight option, range, they are usually accurate, and have decent triggers I'd guess that about 70% of these for sale have very little actual use on them, having spent most of their time in a drawer somewhere...
I agree with these points for the most part. I've never had the Springfield XD magazine issue you speak of concerning the springs. Though I'm not sure when it was you had your Springfield XD. I may have purchased my XD's since you have. I think I've had mine close to a year. They may have corrected the magazine problem since you had yours. It may also be an issue endemic to other versions of the XD such as the XD-9 and XD-40 pistols. I'm not sure what you had. I have had an XD-40 but I didn't have it too long. All the XDs I currently have are XD-45s. I have also never had any feeding issues with any ammunition I've tried. I've used a variety of ammunition in my XD's all with successful results. The worst ammunition for me was Remington UMC yellow box. That stuff is dirty as hell and for some reason it always shoots low and to the left. It does this out of all my XD's and to a lesser extent my 1911's. So the problem isn't specific to the XDs themselves.
In any case I've got at least 2,000 rounds or so through my XD-45 Tactical and I've had no problems with it. I've never had a failure to feed or a failure to eject. I've had my XD-45 Service fail to lock back the slide once with the Remington UMC ammunition and that's all as far as issues go. That one I've fired about 1,000 rounds through. These weapons have been quite reliable for me and feel better in the hand than Glocks do. Not saying Glocks are bad, because they aren't. I've had good experiences with Springfield and Kimber 1911's. My Springfield TRP's were good to go out of the box. The Springfield Loaded Champion took some breaking in but its good to go now. The Beretta 92FS I've had for almost 9 years has been nothing but excellent. Reasonable accuracy, feeds almost any ammunition without problems. I can count on one hand all the times it has jammed in the last 7,000 rounds I've put through it.
Jack;
The problem I had with my XD mags, (XD45 4" service, was bought new, last spring, sold right before xmas) started because I started getting light strikes with my reloads figuring it was because I had some high primers I carefully loaded a couple boxes and again had light strike problems, I finally figured this out, with the help of a couple guys on the XD forum.We put our heads together and figured the problem stemed from the mag springs, as it was allowing the round being fed to partly nosedive, this results in loss of forward monentum of the slide, usually just enough to allow the slide to feed the round,and almost lock up with the barrel, pull the trigger and "click" nothing... with the 20% stronger springs the problem stopped, I figure because of the stronger spring, the round being fed, could'nt nosedive, and fed and fired correctly, Now, this problem showed itself with reloads..I was using a 230gr LRN, these rounds feed in my Sig P-220, and both my 1911's. I use a case gauge and they drop in and out fine, so, I don't think it's the loads. After changing springs, I tried to get light strikes again, by loading a couple mags up with my loads and then pulling the trigger as fast as I could...I did this several times, nothing...every one of my loads fed, fired, ejected, no light strikes..I never had this problem with factory ammo or with loads loaded with FMJ's or JHP's However, I am convinced that the mag springs in the XD are weak, and will fail sooner that one thinks..many people over at the XDforum are in denial about this, and will very pointedly tell you that light strikes and mag springs don't have anything to do with each other. I beg to differ, I'm now sure that they do..Anyway this is a little food for thought, and if your XD feeds LSWC's, you sir, hit the lottery..about 99.9% of the XD45's won't feed LSWC's
Jack_Stroker
01-15-09, 15:56
Jack;
The problem I had with my XD mags, (XD45 4" service, was bought new, last spring, sold right before xmas) started because I started getting light strikes with my reloads figuring it was because I had some high primers I carefully loaded a couple boxes and again had light strike problems, I finally figured this out, with the help of a couple guys on the XD forum.We put our heads together and figured the problem stemed from the mag springs, as it was allowing the round being fed to partly nosedive, this results in loss of forward monentum of the slide, usually just enough to allow the slide to feed the round,and almost lock up with the barrel, pull the trigger and "click" nothing... with the 20% stronger springs the problem stopped, I figure because of the stronger spring, the round being fed, could'nt nosedive, and fed and fired correctly, Now, this problem showed itself with reloads..I was using a 230gr LRN, these rounds feed in my Sig P-220, and both my 1911's. I use a case gauge and they drop in and out fine, so, I don't think it's the loads. After changing springs, I tried to get light strikes again, by loading a couple mags up with my loads and then pulling the trigger as fast as I could...I did this several times, nothing...every one of my loads fed, fired, ejected, no light strikes..I never had this problem with factory ammo or with loads loaded with FMJ's or JHP's However, I am convinced that the mag springs in the XD are weak, and will fail sooner that one thinks..many people over at the XDforum are in denial about this, and will very pointedly tell you that light strikes and mag springs don't have anything to do with each other. I beg to differ, I'm now sure that they do..Anyway this is a little food for thought, and if your XD feeds LSWC's, you sir, hit the lottery..about 99.9% of the XD45's won't feed LSWC's
Thanks for the clarification. I've never tried to feed LSWC's through my XD-45's. I've only fed factory ammunition and even though I've tried a few different brands, most of the ammunition I've used has been good quality ammunition. I don't reload currently. For awhile i was shooting at least once a week and I considered it. Now I am not shooting as much so I've not made the investment in it as of yet. Even then I wouldn't bother reloading 9mm or anything like that. .45ACP, .50AE, .223/5.56x45mm? Probably. The rest of the rounds I shoot are cheap enough or shot infrequently enough that I wouldn't really bother with it.
Hey guys ive been kickin around the idea of buying my first handgun for the past few months. Im a broke college student so this is going to be my only handgun for a while. I was originally looking into getting a glock 20 but, every time i think of getting something else i always circle back to a 1911, i cant get away from it. 1911's are about as american as killin terrorists and apple pie. So, heres my question, what are some nice 1911's i can get for about 700 bucks? price cant exceed 800 bucks. Im looking for a reliable, accurate shtf 1911.
If that's what YOU really want, in YOUR right mind, then get a Kimber Custom II. Right smack in your price range! Aloha!
Business_Casual
01-16-09, 16:04
If that's what YOU really want, in YOUR right mind, then get a Kimber Custom II. Right smack in your price range! Aloha!
So it is safe to assume wargasm didn't read anything past the first post then.
M_P
Jack_Stroker
01-16-09, 17:13
So it is safe to assume wargasm didn't read anything past the first post then.
M_P
$700 only gets you the most basic Kimber if it gets you one at all.
I have another friend with 2 RIAs and he also has never had any problems
Just to add another datapoint I owned an RIA 5"purchased around 2005. I was a new reloader at the time and wanted to use it as a test gun rather than my S&W 1911 carry gun. I bobbed the spur hammer and dehorned the grip safety for comfort and left it otherwise stock. Although anecdotal I found the steel on my example to be pretty soft when grinding and reshaping it. The biggest flaw with it was that the hole for the hammer drilled into the frame was skewed. As a result the hammer was not parallel to the bore axis and hit the firing pin at an angle. as the gun broke in the hammer had a very obvious wear pattern as a result. I sold it later on. However I got what I paid for..$300 for a range reliable 1911 that allowed me to keep wear off of my carry gun and to test new loads in. I really wanted to like it but the QC was not there and it was much more mag sensitive than my S&W 1911 and didn't feed ammo as smoothly.
Mr. Goodtimes, try the Taurus 1911. It's affordable and comes standard with features that are typically considered custom.
Jack_Stroker
01-16-09, 23:42
Mr. Goodtimes, try the Taurus 1911. It's affordable and comes standard with features that are typically considered custom.
I haven't messed with them a whole lot, but a friend of mine broke the safety on one just by checking the feel of it in the store. I have also heard that they are basically hit or miss. Some work fine and others aren't worth a crap from day one. I'd spend a couple hundred more and get a Springfield Armory 1911 instead. (Or other similarly higher quality brand.)
Outlander Systems
01-17-09, 10:50
On the subject of 1911's...Something that's had me scratching my head for a while. I've yet to handle a 1911 that has anything but an extremely stiff slide.
If you watch Todd Jarrett's action on his slide, it looks like there is absolutely zero resistance whatsoever; it looks silken smooth. Is this a modification to the recoil spring, or is this simply a by-product of lots and lots of shooting?
I haven't messed with them a whole lot, but a friend of mine broke the safety on one just by checking the feel of it in the store. I have also heard that they are basically hit or miss. Some work fine and others aren't worth a crap from day one. I'd spend a couple hundred more and get a Springfield Armory 1911 instead. (Or other similarly higher quality brand.)
An acquaintance of mine had a similar experience with a Taurus 1911 in 2007. His safety failed at 100 rounds.
http://www.assaultweb.net/forums/showthread.php?t=25821&highlight=taurus+1911
Mr.Goodtimes
01-17-09, 11:57
i thought about the taurus pretty seriously for a min until i realized their made in brazil right? doesent brazil have that super anti american guy runnin the show over there? I think ive decided to go over to the dark side and sell my soul to glock ;) after handling one in the store and the fact that their affordable and reliable as is, i decided glock was the choice. Now the question is 21sf or 17. The 19 felt too small for my hands. Ill probably go 19 for the sake of actually being able to shoot it. I loved the 21 though, the thing felt like a hand cannon with 13rds of 45.
MarshallDodge
01-17-09, 12:04
Ill probably go 19 for the sake of actually being able to shoot it. I loved the 21 though, the thing felt like a hand cannon with 13rds of 45.For 45 the 1911 or M&P is the platform I would go with.
i thought about the taurus pretty seriously for a min until i realized their made in brazil right? doesent brazil have that super anti american guy runnin the show over there? I think ive decided to go over to the dark side and sell my soul to glock ;) after handling one in the store and the fact that their affordable and reliable as is, i decided glock was the choice. Now the question is 21sf or 17. The 19 felt too small for my hands. Ill probably go 19 for the sake of actually being able to shoot it. I loved the 21 though, the thing felt like a hand cannon with 13rds of 45.
You are thinking of Hugo Chavez from Venezuela. Yes Taurus is made in Brazil, but I wouldn't buy one. I do have a Springfield which comes from Brazil and they are top notch.
BTW, just saw today that the Springfield LW Operator, which is mentioned in my earlier post, is evaluated this month in the American Rifleman (Feb 09, p. 60). They give the stock version a nice plug: the reviewers had zero malfs, and got 5-shot, 5-group averages of 1.78" and 1.91" at 25 yds using Hornady and Winchester factory loads. Despite its lighter weight (roughly 0.5 lb lighter than a standard govt model 1911), I too have found that I can get excellent accuracy out of it. Double-taps are just as controlled and tight as with my standard 1911, though recoil is a tad more noticeable. Overall, I find the LW 1911 from SA is so comfortable to carry, and shoots and balances so well, it is becoming my favorite pistol.
On the subject of 1911's...Something that's had me scratching my head for a while. I've yet to handle a 1911 that has anything but an extremely stiff slide.
If you watch Todd Jarrett's action on his slide, it looks like there is absolutely zero resistance whatsoever; it looks silken smooth. Is this a modification to the recoil spring, or is this simply a by-product of lots and lots of shooting?
Does he even shoot .45? I suspect that he's using light loads and has a light recoil spring in his pistol.
Or, he's just got really strong forearms.
John_Wayne777
01-18-09, 11:50
Does he even shoot .45? I suspect that he's using light loads and has a light recoil spring in his pistol.
Or, he's just got really strong forearms.
All of the above, most likely....
Putting 5K rounds through a 1911 will cost you around $2K unless you reload.
If you reload it is still expensive with the increasing cost of supplies its still around $1K. Why own three or four low dollar 1911's. Then put 2-4k rounds through them and claim you cannot buy a Colt/ Springer and send it to Chuck R or Ned C
or buy a Baer or Wilson?.........:confused:
I have carried a 1911 for a number of years. I was trained on and carried a Single action pistol in the Service many moons ago. Any store bought gun can function moderately well for a few hundred rounds. Try running 1200 round two day courses of fire with a pistol (or Carbine) and the 'weeds' will soon show up in your platform.
I have seen lots of 1911's splutter, break and cease to function. I have seen an much larger number chug away and have no issues in these high round count courses. Without exception they were Custom and Semi Custom 1911's Operated by dedicated users. In fairness I have seen a number of Glocks turn into paperweights during high round count classes, nothing is infallible.
I few years ago a number of guys at my Department decided to buy 1911's. They bought in the 800+ buck range and looked for 'bells and whistles' and 'fit and finish':o . The dedicated 1911 guys advised them against the cheap 1911, buy once cry once.
A few of the new 1911 guys's are SWAT guys (Our team pistol Glock-17) they shoot quite a bit, the pistol is a tool. Fast forward about a year. 1911's are all gone. They are all back to Glocks. Dedicated 1911 guys on the team are not surprized.
What you need depends on if its a tool or a toy. Hard use has a great many definitions on the internet misinformatin superhighway.
I just got permission to carry a 1911 on SWAT callout. I will stick with the Glock 17.
I'd like to hear DocGKR's opinion on the Dan Wesson Valor that someone else mentioned.I've never seen the 1911 pro's commments on these. Just which category does this pistol fall into? Is it duty worthy? I'd like to see a true hard test on one of these,from a reliable souce,not some gunzine writer.
Not Doc Roberts Dan Wesson fall into the $800 need work column. I had one I got rid of years ago. QC was spotty to say the least on these.
Limey,I appreciate your opinion.All mine have been Colt's with the exception of one SA. I am currently interested specifically in the Valor as produced today.I'm not fond of the idea that it's stainless under the ceramic coating,but I'd like to know more about shortcomings of this particular pistol before I invest in one. I've primarily carried the same G19 as a mainstay for the last 16 years with exactly one malf in that time. Other pistols to choose from in house but I seem to always go back to that one. I'm basically finished with 1911's,but the Valor interests me.
If you wait and watch, you could probably snatch up a Springfield Mil-Spec for around that price and those are very reliable 1911s and run right out of the box. You might, I say might, even be able to find a pre-owned Loaded model and then you would have a chance of getting yourself night sights with the deal.
My first pistol was a Glock 19 and I loved it. I can't say anything bad about Glocks. I moved on to Sigs (which are also good guns) and currently have a Sig 228 and a Springfield LW Champion Operator which is a very good gun. I saw an H&K P30 sell for $700 just the other day on Sigforum! Be patient and keep your cash in hand and be ready to jump on the right deal when you see it. Don't settle! Hold out for what you want even if it takes a couple of months. It will be worth it.
Hi, my name is Gary and I just learned today in this thread that I am a "gun snob".
In this thread I learned that sub $1000 dollar 1911's with poor quality parts and sub-standard build efforts are just as reliable, durable, and can be equally counted on to save my life as more expensive, properly fitted 1911's that cost over $2500. I will probably need to seek psychiatric help for this issue, because I am clearly out of touch with reality, since the new information in this thread about 1911's is completely contrary to my 20+ years of military and LE experience using and observing numerous pistols firing many hundreds of thousands of rounds.
I've carried a 1911 for 25 years and have stated numerous times that a properly customized 5" steel-frame single-stack 1911 in .45 ACP is a superb, unparalleled choice for the dedicated user willing to spend a significant amount of money to get it properly initially set-up and considerable time to maintain it. In fact, I just re-qualified with the 1911 and G19 this week. Yet if I didn't have 25 years already invested with the 1911, I'd probably go with a .40 M&P w/ambi safety (or .45 M&P if effected by asinine laws restricting magazine capacity)... When looking at all the factors of picking a hard-use pistol, I truly believe that if someone wants a 1911 for serious use, the minimum level of quality for a duty/carry weapon is the SA Pro model (either PC9111 or PC9111LR if you want a light rail) or equivalent; for folks not willing to invest that much into the weapon system, don't get a 1911. End of Story. FWIW, current Kimbers generally have not performed well, especially those utilizing the Swartz type firing pin safety. For folks who want a .45 ACP pistol, but don't want to invest the funds and effort into getting a good 1911, they would be better served with a S&W .45 ACP M&P or HK45. Recent Sig's, especially the P220's have had numerous issues. Likewise, G21's also have a somewhat checkered history--particularly with several west coast LE agencies that have reported significant problems. For that matter a 9 mm Glock or M&P would probably work for 90% of shooters service pistol needs...
In case people don't read the whole thread, this bears repeating because its still the one post I pretty much totally agree with. Limey makes some good points, I cringe too when I hear "fit and finish" as the number one selling point. Kimber comes to mind. Looks good in the case though. ;)
If you just want a 1911 to play with at the range, then that's different than wanting to depend upon one for your life. Decide your needs first. If reliability is way up there, then you are taking a gamble relying on a mass-produced 1911. And those are the ones in the sub-1200 range.
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