View Full Version : 95gr 9mm
Failure2Stop
01-14-09, 08:18
Any terminal ballisitc info on a 95gr 9mm manufacturered by Radway Green?
Just spent some time with a very interesting organization that is using this ammo, but was unable to get much info about it. No idea if it is +P, velocity, used in handguns or subguns or anything. I just saw empty boxes- no indication on them of anything other than weight and caliber.
Anything?
The Ball or Hollow Point?
There was concern with SIG P226 cracking with military standard and heavy 9mm. Maybe a way of getting a faster bullet with slightly less frame battering?
Failure2Stop
01-14-09, 13:15
Don't know if it was JHP or ball. I assume that it is a HP, but was looking to see if anyone had hard data. The unit primarily uses G17s (but also employs several others) and a few different 9mm loads.
If it's loaded to max pressure, it will actually probably wear out guns faster than heavier stuff. Slide velocities will be significant.
My recollection is that most of the 95gr stuff was JSP, an early approach to reducing ricochet threats.
I wouldn't volunteer to get shot with it, but I don't think any of it falls within the "happy zone" of current terminal ballistics thinking in terms of pen/exp. Doctor Roberts would obviously be the guy with the answers ...
Wasn't LAPD or NYPD issuing 95-gr loads in the past?
Wasn't LAPD or NYPD issuing 95-gr loads in the past?
I know that for a while NYPD was issuing 124gr JHP. But I don't know on what scope
NYPD never issued any soft points. we did have test rounds in .38 spl. it was speer 158 gr. +p soft point. i have a few boxes of it, for history purposes only. i don't believe we ever did anything w/ soft points in 9mm. i have aleast a box of evertthing we carried or tested for carry.
I believe the Illinois State Police used a 95gr JSP for a while when Smith & Wesson 9mm autos were issued.
Wayne Dobbs
01-16-09, 15:09
LAPD's first 9mm issue round was the Federal 95 grain soft point. John Pride told me that the round expanded a little and then the core and jacket usually separated, with the jacket remaining behind and the the core making a complete penetration of the shootee. All in all, not very good performance, but the powers that be still wouldn't authorize hollow point ammo, so the JSP load was the compromise.
Actual chronographed velocity from their Beretta 92FS was 1300-1325 fps for the load.
IIRC, the LAPD went from the 95 gr JSP, to 115 gr JHP, to 147 gr JHP.
IIRC, the LAPD went from the 95 gr JSP, to 115 gr JHP, to 147 gr JHP.
What was their reasoning for each of the transitions?
To improve terminal effectiveness and more rapidly incapacitate dangerous threats to officers and the public.
LAPD's first 9mm issue round was the Federal 95 grain soft point.
IIRC, the LAPD went from the 95 gr JSP, to 115 gr JHP, to 147 gr JHP.
Nice to know my memory's not completely gone. Thanks gents.
Wayne Dobbs
01-18-09, 11:08
IIRC, the LAPD went from the 95 gr JSP, to 115 gr JHP, to 147 gr JHP.
And if my memory serves correctly, the progression was Federal 95 JSP, Remington 115 JHP (was it the +P version, Doc?) and then Winchester Ranger Talon (RA9T) 147 JHP...
About the Radway Green 95gr JSP 9mm ammo---a few months ago I bought from Ammunition to Go a batch of 9mm 95gr JSP(XM9R01) made by Federal from RG components. Brass is marked RG with an 03 date. Primers are crimped. The bullet appears to be the same one that Federal used in its 95 grain l.e. ammo. The seller described this stuff as British sub gun ammo that could be safely fired in handguns and mentioned the intention to produce a round with less glancing upon impact with hard surfaces.
Various cops turned writers gave the original Federal round poor reviews years ago. The RG version mentioned here is hot ammo that shoots well in my Glock 19. I suspect that its performance is the same as the old l.e ammo. I bought it cheap and like it for plinking but consider it obsolete.
It seems to me that the progression to the 147's has begun to swing back toward middleweights in the upper midwest... 124-127 gr offerings.
I've shot this load into water. Zero expansion, high penetration, you could have reloaded the bullet and shot it again.
Not my first choice unless I was rabbit hunting with my Glock.
Doc, you may recall that we use the 124gr +P Gold Dot here. We are one of the few 9mm agencies in the area, but all of the rest around here use the +P Gold Dot or 127gr +P+ Ranger-T.
We did some gello testing here of the various 147gr loads when I was running the range program. I'd carry the Gold Dot, Ranger-T or HST without any heartburn. I did most of our shooting with my G26s so I could get an idea how the little guns performed.
Portland reports the 147gr HST working well for them, LAPD still issues the 147gr Ranger-T, it's a very proven load.
What is the difference in performance between the +P+ and +P loads of the 127gr Ranger-T? I see both listed in the win site:
http://www.winchester.com/lawenforcement/testing/testing.aspx#
If you go to "Launch Testing Comparison Tool" the difference in performance doesn´t seem to justify the +P+ extra recoil, blast and wear on the gun, am I missing something?
What about these loads compared to the Speer 124gr +P Gold Dot, is there any meaningful difference?
I believe you will find only the 127 gr RA9TA is +P+, while both the 124 gr RA9124TP and RA9BAB are +P.
What Doc said.
And as far as how they compare to the Gold Dot, not much difference at all.
Thanks! I see the comparison table is very similar for all loadings:
RA9124TP ; RA9TA ; RA9BAB and RA9T
It is obvious that the windshield test is the hardest, at least for these bullets, and the 124 gr bonded RA9BAB and 147 gr RA9T have a small advantage here. The 127 gr +P+ RA9TA is actually the worst performer on auto glass... what is its claim to fame to justify the +P+ rating?
The 127gr round runs right at 1325fps from my Glock 17, that would be it's claim to fame.
In gelatin tests that I have either watched or conducted, I have seen a toss-up between all of the above rounds as far as which penetrates more.
I have seen the 127gr penetrate more than the 147gr Ranger-T in bare gello,,,, I have seen the non bonded bullets out penetrate the Gold Dot on occasion, through windshield glass that is.
Hence the term "average" when dealing with bullet performance.
All the above work well. I'd say pick one and quit worrying about bullets, worry about training instead.
Wow!! that's a 168 PF out of a stock G17, with factory ammo... it's like a 357 Sig on a 9x19 envelope, but that's also a 20% increase in recoil impulse and it must take a toll on the gun's durability, or at least some parts/springs. The G17 is very tolerant of hot loads, but I would not use it in other models without modifications.
The thing is, this HOT load does not seem to have a significant (if any) advantage in terminal effects, at least regarding FBI testing, so why pick it over milder loads that achieve the same results? Particularly the windshield test is very hard on bullets, and seems to be even harder on faster bullets that do not have a lot of sectional density like this one.
The Austrians have used some Hirtengerger 95gr. JSP and IIRC it was loaded to +P+.
My exposure to the ammo was about 15-18 years ago though.
Failure2Stop
01-27-09, 14:01
Forgot to update this- confirmed that the bullets in question are indeed JSP.
Not that it shines any more light on anything though.
I don't mind the recoil on the 127gr round, it's certainly less, to me at least, than using a .40.
I like the performance characteristics, that it shoots flat way out there (I can hit steel at the 150 with no issues), and I like how it penetrates certain barriers very well.
It's like having a .357Sig without the loss of ammo in your mag or the extra cost of practice ammo.
Thanks tpd223 :)
I´m sure the recoil is not excessive on the shooter, but I was thinking of the vastly increased recoil impulse (20% more momentum) that cycles the gun, the slide velocity is higher, impact on the frame is higher, you must have a strong gun, good recoil and mag springs, etc.
Any quality modern handgun rated for SAAMI 9x19mm +p specs should be able to handle the occasional diet of RA9TA (and similar major-brand +p+ ammo) without much trouble. Certainly it will accelerate wear but it won't kill the gun in a day.
I've shot plenty of it through Glocks, Berettas, SIGs, and M&Ps without any trouble.
When I was at Beretta, we actually had a letter we sent to LE agencies telling them that internal testing showed +p+ ammo from the four major manufacturers produced less wear on the gun than standard NATO-spec 9mm (M882).
The S&W M&P9 was specifically designed to handle RA9TA. The little teardrop cut you see underneath the striker channel in the breechface is there due to early testing with that load.
When I was at Beretta, we actually had a letter we sent to LE agencies telling them that internal testing showed +p+ ammo from the four major manufacturers produced less wear on the gun than standard NATO-spec 9mm (M882).
.
Todd, was it the old M882 loading with the 112 gr bullet or the new with a 124 gr one?
I see the (relatively new) NATO standard for 9x19 is 36,550 psi, piezo electric transducer, pressure recorded in C.I.P. design barrel at mid case position, fairly close to CIP standards.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_EPVAT_testing
Do you know how this NATO pressure relates to SAAMI normal 9x19 pressure and +P, since a different method is used?
What about 9x19 in +P+? SAAMI does not have a pressure rating, what is the major US manufacturers adopted pressure?
124gr.
I don't believe there is a really reliable way to translate between CUP and psi.
Some US-made "+p+" ammo is actually (allegedly) within +p spec. Others are probably touching the 40-42kpsi level. I've got some 115gr +p+ Gold Dot in my locker downstairs and I want to say it's supposed to be around 42k.
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