It's official: HK416 and 417 on civilian market in late 2009 [Archive]

variablebinary

01-14-09, 09:35

Well sorta...not liking some of the details...

http://hk-usa.com/rifles.html

http://hk-usa.com/images/products/mr556/general/mr556_lg.jpg

MR556 RIFLE

A direct descendent of the HK416, the MR556 is a semi-automatic rifle developed by Heckler & Koch as a premium level commercial/civilian firearm. Like the HK416, the MR556 is a major product improvement of conventional AR-type carbines and rifles.

Using the HK-proprietary gas piston system found on the HK416 and G36, the MR556 does not introduce propellant gases and carbon fouling back into the rifle's interior, making it the most reliable of any AR-type firearm.

The MR556 will be produced at Heckler & Koch's new manufacturing facility at Newington, New Hampshire from American and German made components. To conform to German export regulations, certain design changes made in the MR556 prevents the rifle's upper receiver from being used on other AR-style firearms.

The MR556 uses many of the assemblies and accessories originally developed for the HK416 series arms including the HK free-floating fourquadrant rail system/handguard. This system allows all current accessories, sights, lights, and aimers used on M4/M16-type weapons to be fitted to the MR556. The HK rail system can be installed and removed without tools and returns to zero when reinstalled.

Like the famous HK416, the MR556 uses a barrel produced by Heckler & Koch's famous cold hammer forging process. The highest quality steel is used in this unique manufacturing process producing a barrel that provides superior accuracy for more than 20,000 rounds with minimal degradation of accuracy and muzzle velocity.

Projected availability of the MR556 in the USA is late 2009.

http://hk-usa.com/images/products/mr762/general/mr762_lg.jpg

http://hk-usa.com/images/products/mr762/general/mr762_lg_5.jpg

MR762 RIFLE

Like its 5.56 mm counterpart, the MR762 is a direct descendent of the HK416/417 series, only in a semi-automatic rifle configuration developed for civilian users.

Using the HK-proprietary operating system, the MR762 is gas operated and uses a piston and a solid operating “pusher” rod in place of the common gas tube normally employed in AR15/M16/M4-style weapons. Pioneered by Heckler & Koch in the G36, HK416, and HK417; this method virtually eliminates malfunctions common to direct impingement gas systems since hot carbon fouling and waste gases do not enter the receiver area. The MR762 stays cleaner and heat transfer to the bolt and bolt carrier, and wear and tear on critical components is drastically reduced. The service life of all parts is increased substantially.

The MR762 uses a barrel produced by Heckler & Koch's famous cold hammer forging process. This manufacturing process uses the highest quality steel, producing a barrel that ensures superior accuracy, even after firing 20,000 rounds.

The MR762 will be produced at Heckler & Koch's new manufacturing facility at Newington, New Hampshire from both American and German made components.

The MR762 uses many of the assemblies and accessories originally developed for the HK416/417 series including adjustable buttstocks, ergonomic pistol grips, mechanical sights, and the HK free-floating four quadrant rail system/handguard. This MIL-STD-1913 “Picatinny” type rail system allows all current accessories, sights, lights, and aimers used on M4/M16-type weapons to be fitted to the MR series. The HK rail system can be removed without special tools by the user and ensures 100% return to zero when reinstalled.

Ambidextrous operating controls are standard on the MR762, including the charging handle and an ambidextrous selector lever. The MR762 also uses the same 10- and 20-round translucent polymer box magazines made for the for the HK417.

Projected availability of the MR762 in the USA is late 2009.

decodeddiesel

01-14-09, 09:48

RAM Engineer

01-14-09, 09:56

To conform to German export regulations, certain design changes made in the MR556 prevents the rifle's upper receiver from being used on other AR-style firearms.

:rolleyes: I guess this will be a good thing for TangoDown, what with their 416-specific ARC mags and all...but still...

The MR762 also uses the same 10- and 20-round translucent polymer box magazines made for the for the HK417.

Are these available? What do you think they'll run, $75 per?

SHIVAN

01-14-09, 09:57

To conform to German export regulations, certain design changes made in the MR556 prevents the rifle's upper receiver from being used on other AR-style firearms.

Stupid.

variablebinary

01-14-09, 10:02

I really wish it was just a 16" barreled, semi-only 416. To be honest it somewhat reminds me of the changes Sig made to the 552 to bring it to the US market as the 556.

I guess what it boils down to is how the pricing compares to the SCAR. I'm willing to bet this weapon will see an MSRP of at least $2200. I'm also not at all crazy about having a proprietary upper/lower interface, but I guess they've got to do what they've got to do to stay compliant with the import laws.

The 417 looks OK.

What would possibly make you equate the MR556 with the completely disgusting mis-managment SIG has showed with the 556? HK doesnt half ass anything, ever.

The only point of concern here is MR556 uppers wont fit AR15 lowers. This means the cost of entry will always be high, and cant be halved. In return you are getting a complete HK gun every time, and this isnt exactly a terrible thing by any means, but it's also a bummer at the same time

It does show 30 round 416 mags in the accessories section as well. We shall see...On the upside LWRC and POF can rest easy in knowing they now have a niche market for piston uppers that the 800lbs HK gorilla wont be playing in. If anything, this move will probably result in them getting more business.

No.6

01-14-09, 10:12

Ain't it nice to have choices? Never thought we'd see HK bring either one to the civilian market, much less both. Ah, 2009 is going to be a good year. SCAR, 416, Obama. OK, two out of three.... Just hope the last one does nothing regarding the first two. Not really to happy with the "proprietary"-ness of the HK, but having owned several HK weapons, I'm sure it will be an excellent carbine.

joffe

01-14-09, 10:13

The MR556 will be produced at Heckler & Koch's new manufacturing facility at Newington, New Hampshire from American and German made components. To conform to German export regulations, certain design changes made in the MR556 prevents the rifle's upper receiver from being used on other AR-style firearms.
..
Have to ask myself why, too. If it's made in the USA why not just machine the receivers there too to avoid the laws? It's just a receiver, machine it to specs, doesn't matter where you make it.. Seems like a weak excuse to me.

Projected availability of the MR556 in the USA is late 2009.

Too late! ;) They might be 'obaminated' before that time..

Iraqgunz

01-14-09, 10:23

Dear Heckler and Koch,

Thank you for the half-assed attempt at bringing such an interesting design to the U.S consumer market. Apparently you guys are asleep at the wheel and aren't paying attention to the desires of those who will purchase your stuff. You could have easily produced the weapon in the U.S thereby by-passing the stupid gun laws of the Vaterland but choose not to. Please keep those pieces of crap over there and send us a real H/K 416 that will allow us to put them on any other compatible AR lower. Thank you.

1SFG

01-14-09, 10:31

Good for them. Saves me from running into a bunch of 416 uppers on half-ass lowers. My problem with this whole thing isn't the upper/lower crap, but the late 2009 availability. This gun should have been on the commercial market here at least a year ago.

variablebinary

01-14-09, 10:45

For me the biggest downer is the weight: 8.60 lbs is freaking heavy for a modern firearm. The only thing heavier that doesnt have a 20" barrel is the SIG 556 SWAT

Personally I'm not in the market for a MR556. I'd rather get a SCAR or stick with my XCR

NetJunkie

01-14-09, 10:51

Personally I'm not in the market for a MR556. I'd rather get a SCAR or stick with my XCR

*nod*

I'm very mixed. I'm an HK guy...but I'm just not sold. Outside of the "It's an HK" factory I don't see what this offers me over my LMT Piston and I'm sure the HK will be a 50% premium over it. If I want a piston based gun on a proprietary lower I'll get a XCR. I get multi-caliber and quick barrel changes plus, I'm sure, better customer service. I've had no problem getting fast answers from Robinson this week when looking at an XCR.

Having said that...I'm sure if they are available in quantity enough to keep pricing "reasonable" I'll have one in the safe next to my 91 and 93. I really wish they'd do a US made USC. I sold my USC due to the compromises they made to import that gun. Give me a hicap version with a more comfortable grip and stock and I'm all over it. 9mm too, please.

1SFG

01-14-09, 10:51

I lugged around a 10.5" 416 for most of my tour in Iraq and was amazed at how heavy that carbine was. Easily the same weight as a 16" LMT rifle I've got at home in the safe. I was hoping they would knock the weight down myself, but never did weigh the 416 so I'm not sure what the difference is. I'll have to pick one up at SHOT to see if I guestimate the difference.

As for the lower receiver issue, I notice the German export law issue isn't mentioned in the 417 variant.

decodeddiesel

01-14-09, 11:05

What would possibly make you equate the MR556 with the completely disgusting mis-managment SIG has showed with the 556?

This...

Dear Heckler and Koch,

Thank you for the half-assed attempt at bringing such an interesting design to the U.S consumer market. Apparently you guys are asleep at the wheel and aren't paying attention to the desires of those who will purchase your stuff. You could have easily produced the weapon in the U.S thereby by-passing the stupid gun laws of the Vaterland but choose not to. Please keep those pieces of crap over there and send us a real H/K 416 that will allow us to put them on any other compatible AR lower. Thank you.

Have a nice day.

Iraqgunz

01-14-09, 11:06

Though I understand what you are saying my feelings are that someone who purchases a high quailty upper will not put one on a DPMS or Oly Arms lower. If they do then that is their dumb luck. But, if these lowers are truly being made in Germany and then down the road some type of ban were put in place those who bought the MR556 will be screwed if their lower ever gets damaged. To me it's just not worth it, but I am only one person.

Good for them. Saves me from running into a bunch of 416 uppers on half-ass lowers. My problem with this whole thing isn't the upper/lower crap, but the late 2009 availability. This gun should have been on the commercial market here at least a year ago.

Cohibra45

01-14-09, 11:06

*nod*

Outside of the "It's an HK" factory I don't see what this offers me over my LMT Piston and I'm sure the HK will be a 50% premium over it. If I want a piston based gun on a proprietary lower I'll get a XCR.

I'm right there with you...I really like my LMT Piston!!! If I want to go back to DI, it is just a barrel/BCG swap and there you have it!!! I'm sure there will be a 6.8 Piston in the future.

Gotta love LMT and all the other Piston manufactures here in the good ol' USA...they all will fit any AR lower!!!

WS6

01-14-09, 11:24

..
Have to ask myself why, too. If it's made in the USA why not just machine the receivers there too to avoid the laws? It's just a receiver, machine it to specs, doesn't matter where you make it.. Seems like a weak excuse to me.

Too late! ;) They might be 'obaminated' before that time..

I think the crap SIG is currently rolling out of their factory is a good reason. Their pistols used to have world-class reliability when they were all made in Germany. Now that production split, they are trash.
Yeah, I owned a $1200 SIG Elite ST and speak from experience. All I can say is that SIG always shipped it back and forth promptly and on their dime. The fact that it wouldn't extract Ranger T and Speer GD kinda ruined it for me though. I sold it after it's second trip back to SIG. I just couldn't trust it. (The first trip was due to a broken take-down lever at 500 rounds). Lest you think my experience was isolated, go look at www.sigforum.com. All they do over there it seems is complain about their broken/mis-machined stuff.

mmike87

01-14-09, 11:39

It's nice to have options, but I'll pass. A quality DI AR rifle works just fine for me and meets my needs. An HK made AR is not likely to be any "better" in quality than a quality AR from a US company. It will probably just cost more. Knowing HK, a lot more.

caporider

01-14-09, 11:41

As for the lower receiver issue, I notice the German export law issue isn't mentioned in the 417 variant.

I'll bet this is because the 417 upper was never compatible with anything else, whereas the 416 uppers are drop-in replacements on a number of different AR lowers. I am definitely much more interested in the 417.

The Dumb Gun Collector

01-14-09, 11:44

NetJunkie

01-14-09, 11:50

This is great news! I guess some folks won't be happy because they can't put their "pigtail" gas tubes in the gun. I really wanted to use my old Olympic Arms cast lower on my 416 upper.

Anyway, I am all about that 417. I can't believe they are making that too.

Or maybe it's because we already have well built lowers. What if I want just an upper to put on my lower that has a 2-stage trigger and UBR stock? Sure..I can add that to the MR556 (let's assume) but that's what, another $400? I'd rather buy an upper and not have to get the matching lower...and save on excise tax.

variablebinary

01-14-09, 11:52

This is great news! I guess some folks won't be happy because they can't put their "pigtail" gas tubes in the gun. I really wanted to use my old Olympic Arms cast lower on my 416 upper.

That's a straw man argument. Retrofitting was a highly marketed feature of the 416. Removing it was a mistake by any measure.

This however has no bearing on the overall quality of the firearm. The cost of entry will also be far more prohibitive do to consumers being forced to purchase complete firearms instead of uppers. The SBR option is also dead now without a hacksaw.

N4LtRecce

01-14-09, 11:55

Thanks HundK, but I'll keep my Recce....

The Dumb Gun Collector

01-14-09, 12:05

Well, given what these are likely to cost, you can probably buy a German 416 upper!

I think the real danger with these rifles is not the pin, which I think is more likely to just be a matter of internet trivia for people who weren't going to buy the rifles anyway, but the cost. If the .223 rifle is more than 3k than they can forget it. I am a little more flexible on the 7.62 gun. HK needs to price the gun slightly less than the SCAR to be in the sweet-spot, IMHO.

ARin

01-14-09, 12:10

hk continues to underwhelm.

decodeddiesel

01-14-09, 12:13

To add to my 556 compairison...

Here's one observation, why are they going with the hair brained fixed rear, flip down front? Is there something I'm missing here? Did HK do this for a reason? Are they even going to offer these with the HK diopter fixed sights normally seen on the 416?

Also another WTF with the Tango down pistol grip. Why did the HK 416 pistol grip get trashed? Every account I've read on the 416 pistol grip stated it was one of the most ergonomic grips made, the same cannot be said of the tango down unit. I am glad they kept the 416 stock, but they should have retained all of the 416 furniture.

For that matter do we even know if one can swap out with the MR556 furniture with ones of their choice? Say a MIAD and UBR? It will be disappointing to say the least if you're stuck with the HK/Tango Down stuff. Likewise, I will be very curious to see how well P-mags work with this weapon. I really hope there's no insertion issues (ala S&W) or drop free issues. I hate to beat the mil-spec drum, but these are all worries once you start down the proprietary weapon pattern path.

I guess when it comes down to it, I'll keep my good old 14.5" LMT DI M4 carbine.

The Dumb Gun Collector

01-14-09, 12:28

I suspect the 416 will be a huge sales success. I doubt the pin thing will be a deal-breaker for anyone who was seriously considering buying one.

Palmguy

01-14-09, 12:31

hk continues to underwhelm.

No kidding.

Army Chief

01-14-09, 12:38

I am persuaded that the "German law" argument is little more than an incredibly disappointing attempt to justify a corporate production decision. HK could have delivered a semiautomatic 416 as advertised had they wanted to; instead, they offered us the world market MR223 with a flash suppressor. No thank you at half the price.

AC

30 cal slut

01-14-09, 12:43

i have a headache.

BushmasterFanBoy

01-14-09, 13:22

RAM Engineer

01-14-09, 13:31

This is great news! I guess some folks won't be happy because they can't put their "pigtail" gas tubes in the gun. I really wanted to use my old Olympic Arms cast lower on my 416 upper.

Anyway, I am all about that 417. I can't believe they are making that too.

Just to edjumacate you, my opposition to the differently-spec'd lower has to do with the fact that HK 416 mag wells do not play nice with PMAGS. There is nothing to indicate that HK has fixed this shortcoming with the new guns.

IF, however, I could ditch the HK lower for an LMT, Colt or other quality lower, I could then have the ability to run a wider selection of magazines (PMAGS, ARC mags, etc...) AND a quality piston upper.

variablebinary

01-14-09, 13:36

In the meantime, my LWRC works on all lowers - except the upcoming HK ;) - has 80% parts commonality with a DI AR15, weighs what an AR15 weighs, is available as a factory SBR, can be had with an adjustable gas system, doesn't use a proprietary raised rail height, and already has a hammer-forged barrel, Nitrocarburized. If HK wants to access the high-end piston rifle market, they needed to step their game UP, to be the best yet, not water it down. I suppose there will continue to be a market for the gray market Law Enforcement HK 416 uppers, and I may still get one if I ever see one closer to $2k than $4k...

Note - since I saw the accusation a lot when I lurked here, I am not in any way affiliated with LWRC, I just own one and like it, a lot.

I dont think it's a full too little, too late, but for sure a 416/MR556 for sale in 2009 is nowhere near as exciting as a 416/MR556 being sold in 2007.

Especially with Next Gen rifles like the SCAR and XCR out now. The feature set of the MR556 is lacking in comparison. It's like releasing a compact disk walkman in the age of Ipods.

In addition, LWRC has stepped up in a big way technically and certainly offers the consumer more options at a fraction of the cost. I have no doubt many will be drawn to LWRC due to the MR556's inability to mate with AR15 lowers and price.

Palmguy

01-14-09, 13:38

So, let me try to get this straight:

We don't like the rifle because the lower receiver isn't an AR15 TDP standardized part?

Personally to me, I view this as a whole other rifle entirely. Much like how the SCAR is wholly different from an AR15. This is a different breed of rifle, and with it comes different parts. With that in mind, the lower not being compatible with my Bushmaster doesn't really phase me.

My only complaint is the price (which we know will be high), and the lackluster selection of barrel lengths.

They already have the 416 out there that is compatible with standard AR lowers. This isn't some completely different weapon like an XCR or SCAR; it could easily have the option available to be put on any AR lower but HK decided they didn't want that. It just seems strange for HK to go out of their way to avoid commonality (or maybe not, depending on your views of HK :rolleyes:).

30 cal slut

01-14-09, 14:06

don't know why they just can't make and sell the damn 416 uppers separately.

uspopo

01-14-09, 14:11

Stupid.
A big +1 on that! More stupid decisions by HK management. Why not manufacture the entire gun in the US so it can be compatible with AR upper/lowers? I guess another LWRC or LMT gas piston MRP will definitely be on my 2009 list. In a World of Compromise HK has done it again... No thanks Shitheads..

variablebinary

01-14-09, 14:30

don't know why they just can't make and sell the damn 416 uppers separately.

I am going to guess they know, like we know, that demand for uppers would be far greater than demand for complete rifles. The only way to force the market toward their product wholly was to make it a new gun on to itself

I dont think this as dreadful as some. Hell, I am always in the market for new carbines that arent AR15's, but it does make things more difficult who do not want, need or cant afford a complete gun.

Having the option for the upper only was already an ideal solution, and the change doesnt make a lot of sense. The real downside is factory SBR uppers and guns will probably never be an option without a hacksaw

QuickStrike

01-14-09, 14:49

Damnit, what a downer! I don't want a rifle that's imcompatiable with 95% of my mags!

That SCAR is looking better and better...

30 cal slut

01-14-09, 15:48

Damnit, what a downer! I don't want a rifle that's imcompatiable with 95% of my mags!

That SCAR is looking better and better...

IIRC, the SCAR has issues with Pmags right now. I understand Magpul is working on a fix.

I'd like a SCAR too, but at $6,000 for the first batch it might as well be a mythical unicorn.

The Dumb Gun Collector

01-14-09, 15:56

OKAY, in any case, I am sure there is enough room out there for people who want LWRC and POF rifles instead of HK's and FNs. I have a German 416 so this is all academic for me. I will be picking up one of these rifles as soon as the initial frenzy is over. I will just suffer through not being able to put my Del-ton upper on my 416 lower. And in any case, I think Magpul will find it easier to fix their mags to run in the FN SCAR and HK 416 than HK and FN reengineering their guns around aftermarket mags.

What I really want is a 417. That will be a nice addition to the armory.

BushmasterFanBoy

01-14-09, 15:59

They already have the 416 out there that is compatible with standard AR lowers. This isn't some completely different weapon like an XCR or SCAR; it could easily have the option available to be put on any AR lower but HK decided they didn't want that. It just seems strange for HK to go out of their way to avoid commonality (or maybe not, depending on your views of HK :rolleyes:).
I don't think they went out of their way to avoid parts commonality. Seems like if they had gone out of their way, the parts would be the same. I don't understand all of the import laws and the legal speak, so maybe it is possible they could have made this friendly with existing AR15 lowers. But from reading the HK press release it seems like that wasn't an easy option for them, so they took the easy way out and made a proprietary lower.

I just want to clarify again;

The problem with the HK lower is that it doesn't use the piles of magazines we have stashed away?

I can't use my existing AR15 lower to build a gun to my specs?

Personally I don't get mad that my shotgun doesn't use STANAG spec magazines. It also doesn't really bother me that my AK needs to be fed with different magazines. Would it be a nice perk to have? Yea, perhaps. But if this weapon is as good as some of the hype I have read then I would be willing to overlook this.

As for my "views" on HK? I buy something that is within my limited budget and if it works for me I like it. Every company has its hits and misses.

Palmguy

01-14-09, 16:20

I don't think they went out of their way to avoid parts commonality. Seems like if they had gone out of their way, the parts would be the same. I don't understand all of the import laws and the legal speak, so maybe it is possible they could have made this friendly with existing AR15 lowers. But from reading the HK press release it seems like that wasn't an easy option for them, so they took the easy way out and made a proprietary lower.

I just want to clarify again;

The problem with the HK lower is that it doesn't use the piles of magazines we have stashed away?

I can't use my existing AR15 lower to build a gun to my specs?

Personally I don't get mad that my shotgun doesn't use STANAG spec magazines. It also doesn't really bother me that my AK needs to be fed with different magazines. Would it be a nice perk to have? Yea, perhaps. But if this weapon is as good as some of the hype I have read then I would be willing to overlook this.

As for my "views" on HK? I buy something that is within my limited budget and if it works for me I like it. Every company has its hits and misses.

The reason I say that they went out of their way is the actual HK416, which to my knowledge predates the MR223 or whatever the hell they are calling the civvy version; i.e. the one where the lowers work with AR uppers and vice versa. They had to go in there and move the pin or whatever they did to make it different from, well, the rest of the AR world. And that is what this weapon purported, at least to me, to be a part of. Of course, no one expects a 12 gauge shotgun or a 7.62x39 rifle to use the same magazine as an M4. But this weapon is supposedly a product-improved piston AR15. If they wanted to come out with their own spiffy 5.56 carbine, that's one thing. To me it seems like they are just trying to proprietarize (probably not a word, I know) the system for whatever reason when it was unnecessary.

DocGKR

01-14-09, 16:24

"don't know why they just can't make and sell the damn 416 uppers separately."

Bingo! Uppers are not a weapon, they are a replacement part. That is the whole beauty of the concept of a piston upper replacement system for the AR15--you can still use all your existing lowers... HK could have had a very successful and financially rewarding product line over the past 3 or 4 years if they had chosen to go this route. As much as I like the HK416, I am less than impressed by the current HK MR556.

subzero

01-14-09, 16:29

Another swing and miss from the company that couldn't market free sex.

MikeCLeonard

01-14-09, 17:20

Another swing and miss from the company that couldn't market free sex.

By a "swing and a miss" do you mean they will still sell every single last one of these things that ever hits shelves?

Palmguy

01-14-09, 17:33

By a "swing and a miss" do you mean they will still sell every single last one of these things that ever hits shelves?

If you don't think they will then you're stupid.

Yeah, they'll sell them all. Doesn't mean they couldn't have been better.

MikeCLeonard

01-14-09, 17:46

I agree, but things aren't always perfect and I think it's a great opportunity to purchase a rifle that many thought they could never own if they wanted to.

Hk's design has proven itself in combat and in government testing to be first-class...regardless of the stupid pin location.

subzero

01-14-09, 17:49

They'll sell as well as the Sig 556 and the XCR. Same ballpark price, same operating system, same ergonomics, same not-an-AR appeal.

Do sales = success? I guess Hi Points are successful too.

I thought success meant putting out a gun that people want, at a price they want, and in a timely manner.

The Dumb Gun Collector

01-14-09, 17:50

mrwickwire

01-14-09, 18:19

I am disappointed to hear about the 416, but I think I will definitely be getting a 417!

MikeCLeonard

01-14-09, 18:22

If they sell all of the guns they make then they are obviously putting out something that people want and at a price they will pay...which yes, equals success.

If they cost less, then yeah they would sell more...but that doesn't mean success. You would have to know their profit margins and I'm betting they have a better idea of what to sell their rifle for than any of us.

variablebinary

01-14-09, 18:23

They'll sell as well as the Sig 556 and the XCR. Same ballpark price, same operating system, same ergonomics, same not-an-AR appeal.

Oh I bet the MR556 will be at the very least be $1000 more than an XCR...People think the SCAR is overpriced. FN aint got nothin on HK when it comes to over pricing products.

The $9k someone paid for the SCAR on GB will seem like a discount compared to what the first MR556's go for.

Also..The XCR ergos are better :p

KingsideRook

01-14-09, 18:38

Come on! The MR223 is a semi-auto 416 with a slightly different pin location. The 416 has been adopted by top-tier special forces units that could have anything they want. Hi-point? Get real. If you want something to pin on a Baconforce lower I agree this is not the gun, but to pretend that this is going to be anything but a top-class semi-auto AR is silly.

I'd say it's an "AR-type" rifle. It's no longer really an AR15 if you futz with something as central to the current design philosophy as "fully interchangeable upper and lower receivers" just to be different and prevent people from putting your advanced piston system on any other rifle lower. Combine that with a proprietary raised upper receiver and rail system, and they've created another Sig 556, it's not a POF, LWRC or LMT. Before anyone says "Hey, but.." this is different from the Colt takedown pins, one conversion is a minor annoyance, the other is an impossibility.

And yes, they will sell all they make, that doesn't mean they did it right.

QuickStrike

01-14-09, 18:51

Maybe if enough people bitched, HK will release "special" run of uppers with the pin location in the right place.

Nah... highly doubt it. :mad:

VA_Dinger

01-14-09, 18:58

You have got to be kidding me.

I'm absolutely amazed at some of the posts I'm reading. After years and years of non-stop bitching, moaning, and complaining for a civilian 416 and we FINALLY get them. But somehow a small group has decided to rain on the parade.

HINT: Stop the Internet forum famous complaining were nobody is ever, ever happy.

This is exactly what you have been bitching for. The fact the lower pins are different means nothing to me. Yes, it's dumb for the U.S. market but for function it means less than nothing. This rifle is automatically going to be the king of the hill for high-end AR rifles. Actually it has been for several years but U.S. civilians could not own one. How many guys remove the lower from there high-quality and expensive Colt 6920? I see a lot of shooters every year in classes and I've only seen one and while I respect him I've never really figured out why.

I will be buying one of each (416 & 417) and be damn happy doing it.

Redfisher

01-14-09, 19:17

You have got to be kidding me.

(clipped for brevity)

I will be buying one of each (416 & 417) and be damn happy doing it.

AMEN, Brother.

I'd prefer it otherwise, but I don't need to mix and match

variablebinary

01-14-09, 19:29

How many guys remove the lower from there high-quality and expensive Colt 6920?

A better question is how many guys purchase high quality expensive uppers to mate to a lower. This is a considerable segment of the AR15 community. Some already have registered SBR's or machine guns. Having access to an upper alone is all that is needed in many cases.

Hell I have an empty registered 6920 lower waiting for an upper. An American made 416 upper is exactly what the doctor ordered for me. Now that isn't an option

Since you own a real 416 upper and mated it to an AR15 lower, and are benefiting for the interchangeability, you know exactly why losing this option might be disappointing to some.

IrishDevil

01-14-09, 19:30

I will be buying one of each (416 & 417) and be damn happy doing it.

Big +1, I'll be more than happy

VA_Dinger

01-14-09, 19:49

A better question is how many guys purchase high quality expensive uppers to mate to a lower. This is a considerable segment of the AR15 community. Some already have registered SBR's or machine guns. Having access to an upper alone is all that is need in many cases.

Hell I have an empty registered 6920 lower waiting for an upper. An American made 416 lower is exactly what the doctor ordered for me. Now that isn't an option

Since you own a real 416 upper and mated it to an AR15 lower, and are benefiting for the interchangeability, you know exactly why losing this option might be disappointing to some.

Dude, this is a case were somebody is always going to bitch either way (especially on Internet forums). No matter what a manufacturer does. HK states this was done to comply with German export laws and if so I'm fine with that. I would rather have as many German made parts as possible. I know the quality of there engineers and just how anal about quality they can be in pursuit of perfection.

Are you honestly saying you would buy a "U.S. HK Lower" specifically to use on some other after-market upper? Why in God's earth would you? If this is the basis of your complaint I'm not following you.

Are you mad because you can't install an after-market rail? Why not? It's the same context.

IMO: Treat it like a 6920 and leave it alone. You just bought the best AR available, so just go out and shoot the hell out of it.

Yes, NFA lower owners are out of luck but let's be honest they only make up a minute portion of the buying public.

Let's try to just be happy for once. This is a golden age for gun owners in the U.S. 2009 is going to be one hell of a year for buyers. Not only are we getting civilian 416/417's, but you've got the SCAR's and the ACR as well to look forward to.

variablebinary

01-14-09, 19:58

Dude, this is a case were somebody is always going to bitch either way (especially on Internet forums).

Are you honestly saying you would buy a "U.S. HK Lower" specifically to use on some other after-market upper? .[/B]

Well, the bitching part is true. Some people just like to complain. However I think there is validity here and concern is merited.

Also, I mistyped. I meant upper, not lower. I made the change while you were responding.

Still, I don't think you should begrudge anyone over their concerns about the lack of compatibility between MR556 uppers and AR15 lowers. If you didn't see the merit of such a feature you wouldn't have purchased a 416 upper yourself.

Seriously, this is your gun. It's HK over LMT and you seriously cant see why other people would want to do the exact same thing without having to pay $4000-$6000 to make it happen

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v74/va_dinger/NewKrinkAND416006.jpg

DocGKR

01-14-09, 20:10

The Dumb Gun Collector

01-14-09, 20:22

Originally Posted by VA_Dinger
I will be buying one of each (416 & 417) and be damn happy doing it.

A big-ass ditto to that.

KingsideRook

01-14-09, 20:27

Edited by Va_Dinger

Warning: do not troll in this thread.

The Dumb Gun Collector

01-14-09, 20:40

Also, so the German govt. doesn't want US civilians to have their upper receivers if they'll fit on any AR15 lower receiver? Then why on earth should we play that game? Let HK lobby to get the export law changed if they want to sell them here.

And there we have it. The reality distortion field that creeps into all internet gun discussions.;)

olds442tyguy

01-14-09, 20:45

Proprietary mags as rumored?

If it's not outrageously priced, I'd consider one if it takes a STANAG 30 round magazine. If not, I can't help but laugh at it.

KingsideRook

01-14-09, 20:46

And there we have it. The reality distortion field that creeps into all internet gun discussions.;)

If I misunderstand the German government's export restrictions, I'm willing to be corrected. As far as what should or should not be done about them, that's up to the buyer to decide if the restrictions are worth it. Most will choose that they are, because it's HK, and it will sell, regardless.

An example, putting AK rifles together from foreign parts kits is a pain in the ass, but that's because of our import restrictions, which I've done everything about I can, including writing letters and joining the NRA. Thankfully the Romanians and Hungarians aren't trying to make things any harder leqally on their end, but they also don't have the HK cachet to sell anything they choose to import working for them. They have to work for it.

The Dumb Gun Collector

01-14-09, 20:50

Olds,

Standard AR mags. But the price, well Hell you know it is gonna be high.:D

MikeCLeonard

01-14-09, 20:56

I'm Old Greg!!! I like all things that are fine.

scottryan

01-14-09, 20:58

Dude, this is a case were somebody is always going to bitch either way (especially on Internet forums). No matter what a manufacturer does. HK states this was done to comply with German export laws and if so I'm fine with that. I would rather have as many German made parts as possible. I know the quality of there engineers and just how anal about quality they can be in pursuit of perfection.

Are you honestly saying you would buy a "U.S. HK Lower" specifically to use on some other after-market upper? Why in God's earth would you? If this is the basis of your complaint I'm not following you.

Are you mad because you can't install an after-market rail? Why not? It's the same context.

IMO: Treat it like a 6920 and leave it alone. You just bought the best AR available, so just go out and shoot the hell out of it.

Yes, NFA lower owners are out of luck but let's be honest they only make up a minute portion of the buying public.

Let's try to just be happy for once. This is a golden age for gun owners in the U.S. 2009 is going to be one hell of a year for buyers. Not only are we getting civilian 416/417's, but you've got the SCAR's and the ACR as well to look forward to.

I have to agree with alot of this. People have learned to live with different Colt size pins.

I would prefer compatibility, but I would have non compatibility over nothing at all.

Also, pmags are not NATO compliant. The HK416 is NATO compliant. It is not HK fault that pmags do not work in a HK416.

SHIVAN

01-14-09, 21:13

The 417 is nice. I will probably consider one.

I stand by my sentiment on the "new 416" -- it's beyond stupidity, really. In all honesty, they could STILL keep their complete rifle production intact AND produce AR capable 416 uppers for US AR parts sales -- in the US to skirt German export law.

They won't, and I still probably won't own one of the 556 versions. Oh well.

olds442tyguy

01-14-09, 21:44

Olds,

Standard AR mags. But the price, well Hell you know it is gonna be high.:D
Yeah, but what's high after seeing the SCAR prices. :D I'll wait for the price but I'm glad to hear it uses standard AR mags.

What's worse is Bushmaster could be raping the market with a $1500 MSRP ACR right now. :(

armakraut

01-14-09, 22:03

Not very surprising, considering the krauts screwed up the grip design on the full size HK45 so bad that most normal people wouldn't consider owning that firearm either.

Saginaw79

01-14-09, 22:05

What's worse is Bushmaster could be raping the market with a $1500 MSRP ACR right now. :(

+1

Not very surprising, considering the krauts screwed up the grip design on the full size HK45 so bad that most normal people wouldn't consider owning that firearm either.

I love my HK45, just add the medium insert and its perfect!

Ill wait and see on the HK, its been 'official' for several years IIRC, so Il wait...

NetJunkie

01-14-09, 22:06

Not very surprising, considering the krauts screwed up the grip design on the full size HK45 so bad that most normal people wouldn't consider owning that firearm either.

Well, that's where you're wrong. :) Absolutely love the grip on my HK45. If they had used the same type grip on the HK45c I'd go buy one this second..but they used the P2000 grip instead. Blech.

The Dumb Gun Collector

01-14-09, 22:27

Mikeleonard,

I'm Old Greg!!! I like all things that are fine

Maybe I will deal with you the way I dealt with curly Jefferson!:D

Armati

01-14-09, 22:59

In addition to registered SBR and FA lowers, there are also folks in states like California who are legally allowed to purchase new uppers for their registered semi-auto lowers, but can never purchase another lower...

Again, for numerous reasons, I think HK made a colossal mistake in not simply selling standard 416's uppers in the U.S.

Yep!

Anything that can be made modular should be modular. Anything that can be made compatible should be compatible with other systems. This is a fundamental design concept.

The new Hk guns will be several thousand dollars. Only professionals and hardcore enthusiasts will lay down this kind of cash. These sorts of people are already heavily invested in existing systems.

Hk should be moving heaven and earth to sell normal AR compatible parts in the US - uppers, bbls, carrier groups, gas systems ext. We should be able to build to spec a new upper for our existing guns - especially people who are vested in Title II guns or living in states with only grandfathered guns.

KingsideRook

01-14-09, 23:22

Edited by Va_Dinger

When someone with basically zero posts name drops a "Competitors" (Using term loosely) name and then proceeds to take over a discussion with negativity it becomes very apparent that you have come to M4c specifically to cause trouble or troll.

The Dumb Gun Collector

01-14-09, 23:33

Yeah VAdinger, you tried, but admit it, the gig is up. This is a horrible, horrible day--not just for the gun community, but for the human race. HK really screwed the pooch on this one. Man, this is awful. I mean, the Holocaust was one thing, but HOW DARE the Germans move that pin? OH MY GOD WHY, WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN US. IT IS SO SO BAD.

...the horror...the horror.

KingsideRook

01-14-09, 23:37

Edit.

The Dumb Gun Collector

01-14-09, 23:40

I loves me some hyperbole!:D

Alaskapopo

01-15-09, 00:42

Not very surprising, considering the krauts screwed up the grip design on the full size HK45 so bad that most normal people wouldn't consider owning that firearm either.

HK attitude is its not that the gun does not fit you its you who does not fit the gun.
Pat

Saginaw79

01-15-09, 00:50

Well, that's where you're wrong. :) Absolutely love the grip on my HK45. If they had used the same type grip on the HK45c I'd go buy one this second..but they used the P2000 grip instead. Blech.

+1 I hated the 45c

So i take it this upper has been modified so it wont drop in on a regular AR lower or something(w/o me reading the whole thread)? Stoopid! :mad:

variablebinary

01-15-09, 01:06

Press release...

HK to make new rifles in U.S. facility

Columbus, Georgia, January 15, 2009 - Firearms maker Heckler & Koch announced today that it will manufacture two new rifle designs in a newly opened US factory in 2009. The new rifles, the MR556 and MR762, are inspired and influenced by the HK416 and HK417, two highly acclaimed models designed and produced by Heckler & Koch’s Oberndorf, Germany plant.

The rifles will be produced at a new HK manufacturing facility in Newington, New Hampshire. The facility is co-located within an existing 70,000 square foot facility. HK began manufacturing pistols in the U.S. facility in late 2008.

"We’ve reached a major milestone in our objective to establish a production presence in the US," said Wayne Weber, executive vice president of the US business unit of Heckler & Koch. “The new HK45 pistol is the first HK product officially ‘Made in the USA’. It is our goal to strategically transfer production of select HK products to the U.S., with the HK45 Compact being the next product to come off the U.S. production line and shortly thereafter, the MR series rifles.

“It is our intention for all US-made HK products to equal the quality and reliability of the products made in Germany,” Weber added. “By establishing American-based manufacturing, we can compliment our German production and ensure that HK can be more competitive in the U.S., and comply with U.S. government contracts requiring US manufacturing. HK products made in the USA will be fully compliant with federal solicitations giving preference to domestically produced products. Additionally, it will provide a boost to the U.S. economy by creating more opportunities and business for many of our U.S. subcontractors and suppliers.”

The MR556 and MR762 models, caliber 5.56x45mm and 7.62x51mm rifles respectively, will be produced at the Newington facility from American and German made components. To comply with German government regulations, certain design changes were made in the rifles to make them adaptable to the American commercial sporting market.

The semi-automatic MR series rifles use an HK-proprietary gas piston operating system recognized for ultra reliability and will have German-made cold hammer forged barrels. These are some of the same key features critical to the success of the HK416 carbines used by leading US and foreign law enforcement and military customers. The HK416 is widely viewed as a leading candidate in a possible competition to replace the U.S. military’s current M4 carbine.

About Heckler & Koch

Heckler & Koch is the world’s premier small arms systems company and a major supplier to global military, law enforcement agencies, and legitimate civilian sport shooters. An innovative leader in design and manufacturing, Heckler & Koch provides technologically advanced firearms, logistical support, training, and specialized services with the highest standards of innovation and reliability. Heckler& Koch’s well-known range of weaponry includes the MP5 submachine gun, the USP series handguns, the MP7 Personal Defense Weapon, the G36 weapon system, the HK416/HK417 series carbines and rifles, and most recently the HK45 and P30 series handguns.

For further information, please contact:
Heckler & Koch
Tel: 703-450-1900 X 226 in the U.S.
pr@heckler-koch-us.com

NickB

01-15-09, 03:53

Just to edjumacate you, my opposition to the differently-spec'd lower has to do with the fact that HK 416 mag wells do not play nice with PMAGS. There is nothing to indicate that HK has fixed this shortcoming with the new guns.

IF, however, I could ditch the HK lower for an LMT, Colt or other quality lower, I could then have the ability to run a wider selection of magazines (PMAGS, ARC mags, etc...) AND a quality piston upper.

This is true - the PMAG does not work with the HK 416. However, if you must have polymer for your 416...

http://www.magpul.com/images/teaser1.jpg

;)

Iraqgunz

01-15-09, 03:59

Looks like it reads EMAG which I assume is Enhanced-MAG.

Army Chief

01-15-09, 04:49

Got to hand it to you, Nick. It's easier for us to get information on what Iran is doing with their nuclear program than it is for us to to get wind on what the boys in Boulder will be coming up with next. ;)

AC

MikeCLeonard

01-15-09, 08:52

OH SNAP...LOL

Spooky130

01-15-09, 09:26

Looks good to me! As long as the only issues are keeping the upper and lower together I'm ok with it... If I'm going to spend the money on an HK gun it will be as much HK as possible. I see this as a drawback to only the SBR and FA folks - it is expensive to play that game and this would have been a great option. The only deal breaker for me would be the mags - but I didn't see that in any of the releases - just the part about the upper. I really hate paying HK prices for mags (what's the cheapest one out there $35 or 40 with the majority of them at $65+?).

I'm REALLY excited about the 417 - that fills a major hole in the market. Now if they keep it under the cost of the upper end KAC rifles I'll be happy.

2009 could be bad for the budget - maybe Obama will throw some stimulus to me to buy guns with!

We should start a pool to see how much the first MR556 and MR762s will go for on Gunbroker. My bet - MR556 will be $8500 and the MR762 about $10000...

Spooky

taliv

01-15-09, 10:48

Oh look! drama in a thread about HK! How totally unexpected!

I would buy a 416 upper. I'm not buying one that's not compatible.

I owned and shot (a lot) both the HK USC and SL8-1. I learned my lesson about HK's civilian versions of their military guns. They suck. They're as bad as microsoft for not working the bugs out.

As far as I'm concerned, this sounds like they're releasing the MR556 v1.0 Beta

olds442tyguy

01-15-09, 11:55

Anyone notice the "German made cold hammer forged barrels"?

I doubt I had any influence on it, but I conversed with HK long ago about the barrel ban and how they could get around it by just importing cold hammer forged blanks and finishing them here to fit the 416 state side.

Looks like that must be the path they took.

The Dumb Gun Collector

01-15-09, 12:06

Yeah, it looks like they shipped a hammer-forging machine here. I wonder if they used the one from the XM-8 project?

Outlander Systems

01-17-09, 12:06

To me the make-or-break on this one will be STANAG compatibility. If they can pull that off, and no AWB kicks us in the collective jimmy, I will be stashing cash in the hopes that I could acquire such a fine weapon system.

Spooky130

01-17-09, 12:26

I owned and shot (a lot) both the HK USC and SL8-1. I learned my lesson about HK's civilian versions of their military guns. They suck. They're as bad as microsoft for not working the bugs out.

How did the USC suck - are you specifically talking about the neutered version? I built up a UMP conversion and it is great fun. I've even shot it next to a real UMP and besides a little extra length and no full-auto it worked just as well. The bad thing is the complete "real" UMP ran about $1500 while it took double that to build my conversion...

It would be nice if HK would release a compatible version but as long as the whole rifle is compatible with standard stocks, pistol grips, and mags I'll be good to go. Between $1800 and $2200 I'll probably buy one...

Spooky

Savior 6

01-17-09, 14:43

The Dumb Gun Collector

01-17-09, 16:38

I agree savior. These companies need to STOP COMPROMISING. I think we should boycott Colt, Bushmaster, LMT, etc until they deliver their rifles to civilians with select-fire parts. Did you know they modify the lower so my M16 parts won't fit? Those bastards! They also added an extra inch and a half to the barrel of my M4. They claim it has to do with some law, but I ain't buying it.

Patrick Henry

01-18-09, 02:49

I'm not that troubled by the proprietary upper/lower combo. The only thing I worry about, personally, is the retail price. I'm speculating here, but I am expecting to be priced out of the market on this one. It's not HK's fault that business sucks right now for most of us small business owners. :p There are plenty of guys that will pay whatever price HK slaps on the tag. If you need proof, simply go to Gunbroker and see what some guys pay for the hard-to-find rifles. As for me, I have to weigh whether the MR556/416 will be worth three higher-end ARs.

Army Chief

01-18-09, 06:55

I'm surprised -- though I suppose I shouldn't be -- at the manner in which this has polarized our community. Like most, I was looking forward to a semi-416, and HK almost delivered that. In that sense, for those who may have wanted to mount the upper over an SBR or Class III lower, or those that live in a restricted state, HK missed an opportunity.

Will most MR556 owners even want to be swapping uppers and lowers? No, but there will surely be others that would have made the stretch to buy this rifle had a modular approach been maintained. So, is the MR556 now somehow less worthy of our consideration? Again, no ... but neither is it exactly the product of promise. We were expecting an HK 416 without provision for an auto sear; instead, we got a sporterized cousin. Close -- very close -- but no cigar.

As I've stated before, I'm somewhat disappointed with the non-compatibility issue, but my real grievance lies with the manner in which HK chose to cite German law as the rationale for these changes. Without repeating the entire diatribe, I am familiar with recent changes in German law, and I fully understand that the German (domestic market) version of this rifle could not legally be cross-compatible with a military pattern AR. The MR223 was made to be compliant with these laws, and not surprisingly, is the same rifle marketed throughout the EU and Canada, etc.

That's where I get off of the bus. If the civil 416 was to be built for the American market by an American manufacturer operating under the auspices of an American HK subsidiary in order to comply with American laws, then the decision to maintain the MR223/MR556 type standardization really has little-to-no connection with the requirements of German law: it is a production efficiency issue that conveniently brings the side benefit of preventing the product from being parted out or used over a non-HK lower. HK USA could easily have given us a semi-416 through a network of law enforcement dealers, just as Colt has done.

OK, so we got the MR556. Wait for the price to be announced, mull it over, sell off a couple of your children, and take one home if you can. I'm absolutely sure that it will be an exceptional rifle that exceeds all expectations, but please ... spare us the song and dance about how it simply wasn't possible to give us a true non-select-fire 416 because of German export laws that have zero applicability to a weapon produced in the land of the free and the home of the brave.

AC

Ghostrider_911

01-18-09, 08:28

Agree 100%!

A semi-auto only 416 is all we were asking for, granted I wouldn't be swapping out the lower on an MR556 but would still rather get a legitimate 416 upper (if one is an LEO) and if the opportunity exists.

Nevertheless, 4-years overdue but glad to see HK finally offering a AR rifle domestically for the civvie market. There should be a long que waiting for these.

GLOCKMASTER

01-18-09, 08:44

This is good to hear that another option is hitting the market.

However, with the new option I have to wonder if there will be better customer service for their new product. Because if my memory serves me correctly their customer service for the LE and civilian market has not been the best in the business.

Palmguy

01-18-09, 08:48

nevermind

VLODPG

01-18-09, 11:56

So the new questions are:

How long before someone tools up for a replacement billet upper reciever, FA compatible bolt carrier & does a pin relocation on the lowers?

Frens

01-18-09, 12:55

So the new questions are:

How long before someone tools up for a replacement billet upper reciever, FA compatible bolt carrier & does a pin relocation on the lowers?

I 'm not sure the rear push pin can be relocated....AFAIK it has been moved 6mm foward... I dont think there is enough for a new pin

Ricardus

01-18-09, 13:39

This whole thread seems pointless because we don't know what Obama is going to do. There is such a thing as an executive order.
Furthermore, even without the executive order route, by the time these become available, they will be banned outright.
Then the only people able to have them will be LEOs!

decodeddiesel

01-18-09, 13:45

Frens

02-14-09, 11:51

a gunsmith friend of mine just received one of those...I'll take better pics next week

http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/1535/pic0131bk1.th.jpg (http://img11.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pic0131bk1.jpg)

Iraqgunz

02-14-09, 13:28

Just say no to neutered Teutonic weapons.

VA_Dinger

02-14-09, 13:50

How does moving a pin 6mm becuase of German government export laws make it "neutered"?

I have never understood this.

Medicine Calf

02-14-09, 14:01

Just say no to deceased parts interchangeability--whether you need it or not.

VA_Dinger

02-14-09, 14:11

FYI: Every single gas piston AR on the market has proprietary parts. Thus you cannot just stop by your local 7-11 any time you want to buy a new bolt/carrier/etc.

Having to use the same upper & lower receiver means less than nothing to me.

Iraqgunz

02-14-09, 14:18

VA_Dinger

02-14-09, 14:29

Because I really wanted it to remain like the original 416. That also means that ability to drop it on any AR type lower. Also, the excuse that they used German export laws doesn't ring true with me.

10-4, that's fine.

I just do not consider a one tiny pin moved 6mm to be all that different. It's still 100% the same weapon. All I have to do is keep the same upper on the same lower, and that does not seem like a big deal to me. I am also not in a position to question national German laws on firearms exports. I just do not know enough about it. I seem to remember something about "Weapons of War" restrictions placed on HK because they are based in Germany. But, like I've said I will buy one and be perfectly happy. I would not split up a perfect Colt 6920 if I bought it as a complete weapon, and would consider a complete U.S. built 416 to be of the highest quality AR type firearm available any were. I would not even think about using another lower on either of them.

If this were truly a problem for those of us with NFA registered lowers (probably less than 1% of the firearms market) I am sure standard pin location uppers will always be available thought the same grey market (but perfectly legal) that supplies them now.

QuickStrike

02-14-09, 14:53

I am sure standard pin location uppers will always be available thought the same grey market (but perfectly legal) that supplies them now.

hopefully those will go down in price somewhat, when the modified guns are released.

LOKNLOD

02-14-09, 15:06

How does moving a pin 6mm becuase of German government export laws make it "neutered"?

I have never understood this.

It's far from neutered in the same way that the SL8.

It's just disappointing for them to make something that is based closely on the AR platform, and then add nonfunctional changes that serve only to hamper versatility for the end-user. An end user that has been begging for them to bring the version they were already making to market. Modifying it as such to bring it out shows either a lack of understanding or an attitude problem; maybe both. It's going to be perceived that way even if that's not the reason behind the goofiness.

30 cal slut

02-15-09, 16:17

hopefully those will go down in price somewhat, when the modified guns are released.

ayup.

ToddG

02-16-09, 15:35

FWIW, I had lunch with the new President of HK today. They're expecting to have the first 100 US-manufactured MR556 rifles mid-year, with full rate production beginning 4Q09.

Dave L.

02-16-09, 15:49

Dave L.

02-16-09, 15:51

FWIW, I had lunch with the new President of HK today. They're expecting to have the first 100 US-manufactured MR556 rifles mid-year, with full rate production beginning 4Q09.

Great! I love watching new shit get sold on Gun Broker for three times MSRP!! :rolleyes:

Mark71

02-16-09, 22:22

FWIW, I had lunch with the new President of HK today. They're expecting to have the first 100 US-manufactured MR556 rifles mid-year, with full rate production beginning 4Q09.

Thanks for the update Todd! Like Dave said, I can only imagine how much these are going to be selling for on Gunbroker.

The Dumb Gun Collector

02-16-09, 22:54

That is fantastic news. I can't wait.

I have to agree with VaDinger here. The pin thing is extremely overblown.

armakraut

02-17-09, 04:14

I wonder what the price will settle at.

Usually CDNN gives out the baseline pretty quick.

variablebinary

02-17-09, 05:02

FWIW, I had lunch with the new President of HK today. They're expecting to have the first 100 US-manufactured MR556 rifles mid-year, with full rate production beginning 4Q09.

In other words get ready for more comedy on gun broker for at least a year until the market is flooding with product, in which case there will be only the HK tax to deal with

And anyone that says the relocated pin isnt a big deal better not have a 416 upper on a brand X lower in a safe somewhere.

ToddG

02-17-09, 08:28

In other words get ready for more comedy on gun broker for at least a year until the market is flooding with product, in which case there will be only the HK tax to deal with

FWIW, when I told him what the expected price tag was going to be for civvie SCARs and AUGs and such, he was surprised. I wouldn't expect the MR556 to be outside that price range.

And anyone that says the relocated pin isnt a big deal better not have a 416 upper on a brand X lower in a safe somewhere.

The pin issue is a big deal for folks who think they're entitled to an upper-only solution. No one is bitching that the SCAR needs its own lower, or the Masada/ACR, etc. Would it have been even better if HK (1) could make the upper compatible with standard AR lowers and (2) would sell the uppers as separate items? Better for us, sure. Better for HK, though? Probably not.

Now if you'll excuse me, I need to call Glock. I'm suddenly very pissed that I can't drop one of their slides onto my M&P9 ... :rolleyes:

lw8

02-17-09, 10:15

IMO, the reason American gun owners in general will shy away from this product is that they will generally feel insulted by a neutered product that is not neutered by law but by choice.

That will be the real issue...the Pin location is not a deal breaker in theory but it will be in practice IMO because American gun owners hate to be treated like second class citizens. They want the real deal...not a watered down version. That is why the SL-8 wasn't so hot and didn't sell in great numbers...people wanted a semi auto G-36, not an SL-8.

The same thing will happen with the MR whatever...people want a real deal 416 upper, not a MR.

YMMV.

armakraut

02-17-09, 10:49

It's to be expected. Since the original ban, HK is pretty notorious for inventing their own regulations that go above and beyond any regulations that exist in real life. This being one of those cases.

At least the US lawyer said to just move the pin location this time and not paint the whole rifle light grey.

Dave L.

02-17-09, 11:01

I wouldn't mind the lower if the safety only took around 45 degrees to disengage.

Todd, do you know if the safety will be a standard AR type?

ToddG

02-17-09, 15:15

Todd, do you know if the safety will be a standard AR type?

Getting out of my lane when we talk about guns that are supposed to fit into your shoulder when you shoot them. :cool: As best I recall from SHOT, though, the lower seemed pretty conventional and I'm fairly certain it uses a standard 90-degree selector movement.

FWIW, one of the most common complaints we got at SIG about the 551/552 was that the selector would be in burst mode when someone pushed it to what they assumed (based on AR/M4 experience) was semi. Different strokes for different folks, I suppose.

ToddG

02-17-09, 15:20

They want the real deal...not a watered down version.

Can you explain to me how the MR556 is "watered down" compared to a complete 416? In what way won't the gun function the same?

The only difference I'm aware of is that you can't swap uppers. So the gun works fine, it just won't let you play LEGOs with your other ARs. If you think that is going to have a serious impact on demand, you're wrong. HK will pre-sell every single MR556 they can promise to deliver for years as long as they don't get outlawed.

Failure2Stop

02-17-09, 15:55

My personal grief over the MR556 in relation to the other "better than the AR" options is that though the lower has a shifted pin position causing it to only be compatible with an MR556 upper is that the "new" whole rifles bring something better to the table when compared to a standard AR- be it ambidexterity, control location, and/or control design.

All I see is an AR lower that isn't an AR lower- not that the lower is what anyone cares about- but it is the primary determinimg factor of ergonomics, which to me means more than operating system.

By releasing the rifle as a non-compatible system they have effectively removed themselves from the piston AR market (LMT/LWRC/Ares/POF/PWS/etc), which can be plug and play with existing sytems with a broad support base, and entered into the SCAR/ACR/XCR market, at least as far as I am concerned.

I would have preferred that HK actually made improvements to the ergonomics of it's proprietary lower over the M4, or just released the 416 upper alone. I am sure that they will sell loads of them though, just not to me- and I know that they couldn't care less.

Then again, if someone could show me that the HK lower is superior than a comparitive AR I might change my opinion.

I am a bit more interested in the MR762, as it would make a nice compliment to my existing AR inventory. I know that this sounds contradictory given my above whining about the lack of innovation with the MR556 beyond the op sys- but it will not require any distinctly different manipulations from what I have and intend to keep until I get issued a new system.

ToddG

02-17-09, 16:08

I agree that they're intending to compete in the SCAR/ACR/XCR/SIG556 realm and not against LMT/LWRC/POF which are much more focused on hobbyists (often high-end hobbyists, at least as far as LMT is concerned) than large LE/mil contracts and the follow-on commercial sales.

I can't speak to the reported legal/export issues between HK Germany and HK US. Strictly from a business standpoint, though, it certainly makes more sense to sell complete guns (which cost more and thus bring in more profit dollars) than to sell kits and parts. If HK had more production capacity than market demand, sure, they'd need to figure out how to increase sales. But since market demand is far greater than production capacity, it makes more sense for them to sell their limited supply in the most profitable configuration.

So it really comes down to who is complaining about the pin? It seems to be guys who already have plenty of ARs and want to improve them with a new upper rather than spending the money to get a whole new gun. For them, the MR556 won't be an answer. For someone who is planning to go out and buy a brand new complete rifle, though, it's a definitely an option.

Now, if there is something about the MR556 lower other than its pin hole location that makes it worse than other AR15/M4 lowers, I'm ignorant of it and will gladly shift my opinion once better educated.

LOKNLOD

02-17-09, 16:36

I would have preferred that HK actually made improvements to the ergonomics of it's proprietary lower over the M4, or just released the 416 upper alone. .

Exactly - well said. Making the lower different for the sake of being different only hurts HK in the long run. People accept the SCAR/ACR/XCR/Whatever being non-AR compatible because they all attemp to make a marked improvement on the entire rifle, not just the operating system. Regardless of HK's reasoning, I think the market's view will be that HK is trying to move a pin to justify calling an upgrade a "new rifle platform" or something.

I think the pricing, marketing, and HK label make the MR556 a competitor with the non-M4 wundercarbine market regardless of the lower receiver, but moving the pin prevents it from also competing in the high-end AR market as well.

Now, if there is something about the MR556 lower other than its pin hole location that makes it worse than other AR15/M4 lowers, I'm ignorant of it and will gladly shift my opinion once better educated.

I bite my tongue as I type this, as I want to neither contribute to, nor admit to having fallen for, interweb misinfo -- but is/was there an issue with the lowers not accepting Pmags due to a slightly different taper on their magwell? If I'm completely off base I'll delete this to not contribute to the rumor mill....

Failure2Stop

02-17-09, 16:40

Now, if there is something about the MR556 lower other than its pin hole location that makes it worse than other AR15/M4 lowers, I'm ignorant of it and will gladly shift my opinion once better educated.

Is the MR556 compatible with standard "mil-spec-ish" LPKs?
This is not rhetorical, I really have no idea. Should the LPK not be compatible then I would say that to me this would be the only thing that would make it "worse" than a standard AR lower provided that aftermarket stocks, grips and mags are also compatible.

I think the pricing, marketing, and HK label make the MR556 a competitor with the non-M4 wundercarbine market regardless of the lower receiver, but moving the pin prevents it from also competing in the high-end AR market as well.

This gave me a little sparkle of glee and disappointment all at once.
Just imagine if HK had redesigned the lower to truly be a step forward, but had ALSO retained the pin location. I would have the exact opposite feeling about them than I do right now. A step forward for the platform as a whole, as well as the ability to use it on existing lowers. Damn it.

Such a wonderful opportinity lost. Then again we can't really be surprised, HK has yet to demonstrate an understanding of ergonomics ;).

variablebinary

02-17-09, 19:42

I dont regard the relocated pin as a deal breaker, but it is annoying.

It's hard to argue that forcing the consumer to buy a whole rifle is not better for HK.

Forcing the consumer to marry your brand and limit consumer mobility translates to a steady stream of cash after the initial purchase. It wouldnt be good for the SCAR/XCR/556 parent companies if they were disposable in the way Bushmaster is (You can buy a Bushmaster carbine, and never have a need to give them addtional business because you can easily be serviced by hundreds of vendors selling the same/similar product).

More important to me is how compatible the MR556 is with the 416. Can I gut a 416 upper for the barrel, spare parts etc etc, and drop them into MR556. If I can build a 416 "clone" with all HK parts, I can live with the upper/AR15 lower issue

scottryan

02-17-09, 20:49

More important to me is how compatible the MR556 is with the 416. Can I gut a 416 upper for the barrel, spare parts etc etc, and drop them into MR556. If I can build a 416 "clone" with all HK parts, I can live with the upper/AR15 lower issue

This is the next important question that needs an answer.

scottryan

02-17-09, 20:57

The pin issue is a big deal for folks who think they're entitled to an upper-only solution. No one is bitching that the SCAR needs its own lower, or the Masada/ACR, etc. Would it have been even better if HK (1) could make the upper compatible with standard AR lowers and (2) would sell the uppers as separate items? Better for us, sure. Better for HK, though? Probably not.

The pin issue is a big deal for many other people then those who just want an upper on brand X lower.

It is big deal if you are building a SBR clone of a HK416 using all HK parts. This is the real issue at hand here and most "high end" people will be involved with this.

The ACR/SCAR/XCR are completely different firearms. Not a modification of an AR15.

Iraqgunz

02-18-09, 03:09

I just want to make sure that I have some facts straight here. Am I correct in that no military styled weapons may be imported into the U.S except for use by police and military? If that is true then in order for H/K to be able to sell the MR556 the weapon has to be produced in the U.S, right?

So exactly how would selling the original 416 configuration in semi-auto only be in violation of any German laws if the weapon is produced here? I still fail to see how off-setting the pins would make any difference other than being an annoyance to American gun owners. It still takes the same mags, and one can assume that most every other part would be compatible as well. Maybe I am just an anal retentive idiot, but personally I like having a weapon that is compatible with other system and parts can be easily located. What would stop the German gov't from re-interpreting a current law down the road to mean something else (as happens here) and then other parts suddenly become Persona Non Grata?

Maybe I am missing the bigger picture or maybe someone needs to spell out their plan more clearly to assuage the fears or concerns of the U.S consumer?

Alaskapopo

02-18-09, 03:23

Littlelebowski

02-18-09, 03:49

And who enacted that law? Because I sure as **** don't see "for sporting purposes" in the Second Amendment.

Alaskapopo

02-18-09, 03:50

And who enacted that law? Because I sure as **** don't see "for sporting purposes" in the Second Amendment.

Its section 922 and a very annoying law.
pat

lw8

02-18-09, 04:02

Is this rifle being 100% imported from Germany? I recall that HK was working with Wilcox to make firearms here in the US.

Iraqgunz

02-18-09, 04:04

Alaskapopo,

Yes, I understand that. But, that isn't the real issue. The MR556 was neutered according to the statements made thus far, to be in compliance with German export laws. It would be safe to say that an MR556 wouldn't pass the sporting purposes test, regardless of where the pin is located. Since the MR556 still accepts 30+ round mags, has a pistol grip and a telescoping stock how does that meet the criteria?

armakraut

02-18-09, 04:23

Getting a complete rifle in would be really problematic.

The lower receiver would either have to be US made, or unable to accept regular ar15 magazines if imported. As I understand it, getting a threaded barrel imported now is virtually impossible, so the barrels are either imported initially without threads, or the barrels are made here.

Russian Saiga and Romanian rifles are initially imported as low cap "sporters", then converted.

Exporters hate making any changes to rifles in order to export them. The russians could import a lot more of their product line if they'd stamp "saiga" on rifles like the SVD.

You'd really have to get someone to examine an MR556 to know the exact origin of the parts. Considering the technological base we have here with AR15's in the USA, it would be pretty easy to make the barrels and lower receivers here and it would cut down on a lot of paperwork.

John_Wayne777

02-18-09, 06:00

Getting out of my lane when we talk about guns that are supposed to fit into your shoulder when you shoot them. :cool: As best I recall from SHOT, though, the lower seemed pretty conventional and I'm fairly certain it uses a standard 90-degree selector movement.

While on the topic of 416 safeties....My experience with the 416 is limited to ogling LAV's 416 and playing with KevinB's 416 upper, but IIRC they have a firing pin safety as well....I would assume that's going to be on the civvy model 416, right?

Army Chief

02-18-09, 06:30

The pin issue is a big deal for folks who think they're entitled to an upper-only solution.

I'm with you in principle Todd, but this comment does invite some scrutiny. I don't get the sense that anyone feels that they are "owed" anything, but a thinking man has to consider the implications of our ever-changing laws. Their marketing assertions to the contrary, HK could have given us a semi-416, rather than the MR556: the relevant legal restrictions are ours -- not theirs -- and are easily circumnavigated. As an economy-of-scale or production efficiency measure, their decision makes perfect sense -- I just don't care for the rationale that they chose to provide.

You rightly deduce that HK will sell plenty of these as complete rifles. In truth, I'm sure that legions of buyers would buy a complete rifle, even if all they really wanted was the upper; so I don't take issue with the fact that HK didn't offer an "upper only" option. That's just good business sense on their part. What I do have a problem with is that fact that HK needlessly made it harder for us to deal with our laws if some of our intentions were tactical or defensive in nature, as well as sporting.

For example, the guy that might have wanted to match a 416 upper to a registered full-auto lower doesn't have that option with the MR556. Closer to home, the guy that might have preferred to mate a rebarreled 416 upper to an existing SBR lower (vice registering and engraving his valuable HK lower) is pretty much out of Schlitz. Yes, we gained a great rifle, but we lost some flexibility in the process, and that probably would have stung a lot less had we not been introduced to the MR's fully-AR-pattern-compliant predecessor from the very beginning. If anything, they went out of their way to not give us a choice.

The topic has been run into the ground for weeks now, and it isn't my purpose to bemoan that which can no longer be influenced. Frankly, I'm glad that we're getting the MR556; still, no matter how much we may try to cut them some slack, there is no getting around the fact that HK compromised.

AC

ToddG

02-18-09, 07:37

Army Chief -- Thanks for taking the time to explain all of that in detail. It makes sense and I can see how it would definitely affect those people (ones with FA lowers or SBR-legal lowers). From HK's standpoint, the question must come down to what percentage of the population falls into those categories. I think the numbers are fairly skewed here on M4C.

As for the justification, my understanding echos IG's: it's got nothing to do with US law but rather some limitation imposed upon manufacturers in Germany. So obviously some major component (the upper or lower?) is being made in Germany and by German law cannot be compatible with a standard AR lower.

Folks have been clamoring for a commercial 416 for years, and HK finally accelerated the project to meet the growing demand. Based on my experience in the industry and my knowledge of mass manufacturing of firearms, I'd guess that the decision to make it happen ASAP meant using as many German parts as they legally could which in turn put them in this bind. If at some point in the future the MR556 is popular enough to justify expanding the US production to include whichever of those German parts induced this pin change, then HK (USA) would be free to produce M4-compatible uppers. Of course, that then leads to a problem with legacy compatibility for existing MR556 owners ...

Dave L.

02-18-09, 07:59

People could email HK and tell them how they feel... cs@hk-usa.com

Army Chief

02-18-09, 09:21

... From HK's standpoint, the question must come down to what percentage of the population falls into those categories. I think the numbers are fairly skewed here on M4C.

As for the justification, my understanding echos IG's: it's got nothing to do with US law but rather some limitation imposed upon manufacturers in Germany. So obviously some major component (the upper or lower?) is being made in Germany and by German law cannot be compatible with a standard AR lower.

Fully agree with you on the first point, and as to the latter, well, I probably should have issued an advance disclaimer: I live in Germany, have been here -- excluding "field trips" -- for nine years, am a registered German hunter and am in possession of a German weapons card (Waffensbesitzkarte). As such, I am reasonably familiar with the laws that HK is citing as justification for their actions.

It's entirely true that the 416 would be unsuitable for marketing in the EU, even in semi-auto trim, because the laws here do not allow such a weapon to possess major components which are readily interchangeable with military specification weapons. German companies like Oberland Arms have marketed modified AR pattern rifles for many years, but in order to get around this restriction, none of these are cross-compatible with our MILSPEC ARs.

Naturally, when HK GmbH decided to release a 416-type weapon in Germany (http://www.frankonia.de/shop//_/search/hk/start/3/view/product/window/1/sort/norm/isortiment/B%FCchsen/so/all/search.html) they were forced to make a number of changes from the original 416 design: they gave it a different name (MR223, to tie-it to a sporting, non-military caliber), a non-standard AR pin configuration, 10-round magazines, and the omission of certain other military features, such as a standard pistol grip or flash supressor. Again, this was done to make the rifle permissible for sporting sales as a "self-loading" (semi-auto) sporting rifle under German type certification requirements. This is, of course, the same rifle that they have released to every other market here in the European Union of which I am aware.

As a practical matter, HK has adapted the MR223 to our tastes a bit, and has re-released it as the MR556. The flash suppressor and military cartridge designations are back, and some of the hardware is different, but we're effectively talking about the same MR223 pattern rifle. That is why I cited production efficiencies in my earlier post, rather than legal limitations. German export laws aren't really a relevant point of distinction here, as the rifle could have easily been produced according to a US-market standard -- even if it required a more active role by Wilcox or another subcontractor. It wasn't.

Again, it isn't my purpose to cry over spilled milk, nor even to grouse about the missed opportunities so much; I just would have respected HK's stance a lot more if they had said "look, it made a lot more business sense to bring a modified MR223 to the USA," rather than to hide behind German export laws that have only indirect applicability at best. We didn't exactly get screwed, but had they really wanted to, HK could have given us true semi-auto 416 "Law Enforcement" carbines in much the same way that Colt has allowed distributors to deal with the broader marketing issues associated with their "restricted" LE6920s. At the end of the day, I can take the realities of what we're being offered; I just don't care for the smoke-and-mirrors explanations.

AC

ToddG

02-18-09, 09:55

AC -- Thanks for the further details!

So I think the question comes down to, why the MR223 upper instead of a 416 upper?

This leads to lots of other questions, of course.
Is the MR556 lower being made in NH or Germany?
Is the MR556 upper being made in NH or Germany?
Are there German laws that would affect the export of either a mil-spec upper or mil-spec lower to the United States for non-LE/mil use?

Since HK clearly has the ability (both in terms of drawings and production) to manufacture "mil-spec" uppers and lowers, and since they already make them for mil/LE purposes, what would be the point of using the non-mil versions for the US market unless there was some restriction coming from Germany? In other words, if people are correct and HK isn't really forced to do it this way, what is the benefit to HK?