View Full Version : Red Loctite?
Hi,
I have a set of midwest industries free float rails that I want to remove.
The problem is that they have been red loc-tited on ....is there a way to get the rails off without ruining them?
Thanks,
B
The 2 piece with the hex screws right?
Have you tried just unscrewing them? I had mine red loctited on. Then I had to take it off for some reason. There was no problem.
Yes mine are the 2 piece.
Really, wow? I asked my gunsmith and he said he didnt want to try that. I just took his word for it.
So yours came off safely with harm? I guess I just dont want to mess them up.
Thanks
Yeah. I just backed the screws out. Maybe my loctite was out of spec or some such nonsense? :confused:
Outlander Systems
01-23-09, 11:38
See my sig...
They can be removed. Anything that's relatively big, in terms of screws/bolts, can still be removed with sufficient force, and not be ruined.
If you're worried, hit the screws with a torch for about 20 seconds before removing.
I just tried. The bigger hex screws come out just fine. But the smaller hex screw are stuck. One came out but all the others feel like anymore pressure with strip them.
Will heating them ruin the handguards. Is the temp requirement higher on the screws or the handguards?
I planned to sell these but since I cannot remove them, I am screwed.
My gunsmith (who I dont always trust anyway) said it would ruin the handguards to heat the screws.
Thanks for the help.
-B
Wow. Midwest Industries is very cool. They told me how to drill the screw heads and are sending me all new screws. I should be good to go in a few days.
Thanks guys.
-B
Too late now but you can always try touching the tip of a soldering iron to the screw to heat it up and loosen the loctite. Less heat transfer to the whole assembly that way.
Dennis.
Too late now but you can always try touching the tip of a soldering iron to the screw to heat it up and loosen the loctite. Less heat transfer to the whole assembly that way.
Dennis.
Was going to say the same thing.
FWIW, I actually snapped the screws in my Tango Down PR-4 that I had used red loctite on. The heads didn't strip, the shafts snapped at the point where the two halves of the mount meet. This was WITHOUT using heat.
I have a chandelier that has a long shaft from the celing to the fixture that is comprised of several pieces, it was red loctited on the threads connecting the pieces to prevent the section pieces from coming apart. It came apart with a little muscle.
Thanks for the responses.
I havent had time to mess with it yet. I am debating between heating it up or drilling the screw heads.
Thanks
-B
Johnnyvegas
01-23-09, 14:50
A soldering iron will release the loctite, and not get the screws, or hanguard hot enough to ruin anything................Step away from the drill, and go get your soldering iron.
John
tango-papa
01-23-09, 16:26
Yeah. I just backed the screws out. Maybe my loctite was out of spec or some such nonsense? :confused:
Clearly your loctite had not been properly staked...:p
I've seen "off brand", " loc-tite" that had red as temporary. Maybe you got lucky.
Clearly another jacknut chemical "book" engineer who failed his class on commonization. That or some commie pinko brand trying to destroy us from within. ;p
It takes 400 deg F to break the bond...thats a lot less than aluminum can handle...your gunsmith isn't much of a smith :rolleyes:
Proper application of heat will ensure easy removal without problem.
I was about to chime in on the judicious use of heat, but its been covered.
You might want to invest in some blue loctite when you are ready to reassemble. With properly cleaned and degreased hardware it will hold just fine. (suggest brake cleaner to degrease)
Don
p.s. some day I'm going to make millions by buying brake cleaner and repackaging it as "USGIMOlleSocomPicatinnyA1 Assembly Cleaner" for $19/can
Ok. Once again I am at a crossroad.
My gunsmith does not want to heat the screws because he says he needs a hotter soldering iron. (I know nothing about soldering irons). He seems to be very afraid to touch this gun.
Midwest Industries told me to drill the screw heads until they break off and then use clampers to turn the remaining screw. If I drill the heads, how much screw will remain? Wont it just be stuck then with nothing left to grab?
I am also thinking of trying another gunsmith because I do not have ANY heating tools here. I have almost no tools to accomplish this job.
Thanks for all the help.
-Brandon
EvilSpeculator556
01-26-09, 17:20
My gunsmith does not want to heat the screws because he says he needs a hotter soldering iron. (I know nothing about soldering irons). He seems to be very afraid to touch this gun.
He must be a FUDD. Just do your own work. You will learn more about your gun that way.
Bpurcg,
Here's how I would do it.
If I had an electric soldering iron, I'd give that a try. If I didnt have one, i would not buy one just for this project.
Next up the "power" scale is a propane fired soldering iron. These are commonly used to solder things like copper gutters. Its just like a propane torch, but rather than the flame heating whatever you point it it, it heats a metal tip.
You use that metal tip just like you would use an electric soldering iron. The difference is that this is a larger hotter tip that can xfer more heat.
Finally, if you dont have either of these tools i would go to Radio Shack and purchase a micro butane torch. The flame put out by one of these little guys is about the size you'd get from a match. Not anywhere near the size of a propane torch you'd use for plumbing.
This little microtorch will allow you to apply heat directly to the screw head first with its included iron head. Finally if it doesnt work, you can hit it with direct flame.
I have found this little tool to be INVALUABLE in removing fasteners from all kinds of things, as well as making small electrical solders outside, where it would be a hassle to run an extension cord.
Nobody should be without one of these:
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062753
Spend the $25 on this little Radio Shack unit. Dont forget to buy some butane.
If you want to step up for about $75, Weller makes a superior product. But at 3x the cost the Radio Shack one works fine for the number of times per year I use it.
Don
Ok. Once again I am at a crossroad.
My gunsmith does not want to heat the screws because he says he needs a hotter soldering iron. (I know nothing about soldering irons). He seems to be very afraid to touch this gun.
Midwest Industries told me to drill the screw heads until they break off and then use clampers to turn the remaining screw. If I drill the heads, how much screw will remain? Wont it just be stuck then with nothing left to grab?
I am also thinking of trying another gunsmith because I do not have ANY heating tools here. I have almost no tools to accomplish this job.
Thanks for all the help.
-Brandon
Choose gunsmiths very carefully.
"I do not have ANY heating tools here."
Stove, flat ground nail, and a pair of pliers comes to mind.
Good luck with your search/endeavor.
Robb Jensen
01-29-09, 20:22
A heatgun does wonders..........I use mine about 5 times week. Loc-Tite never wins! ;)
loctite has no business on or around the AR platform.
Robb Jensen
01-29-09, 21:25
loctite has no business on or around the AR platform.
I've seen ARs without the use of Loc-Tite have ejecting optics etc in class.....YMMV.;)
"ejecting optics "
rofl, I can envision that in so many ways. ;p
Robb Jensen
01-29-09, 21:33
"ejecting optics "
rofl, I can envision that in so many ways. ;p
Yeah you really don't want to be 'that guy' in class.......;)
Will heating them ruin the handguards.
With a torch, absolutely
I'd try a heat gun or the soldering iron.
How did this get red loctite on it in the first place?
Choose gunsmiths very carefully.
I wouldn't work on the customers gun if he brought this to me.
Too much risk of breaking something and getting blamed for it.
Too much effort to try to solve this problem and it isn't worth it for him, time or money.
The gunsmith is in the right on this one.
Whoa
Loctite has no place on an AR. hahahah. Its got no place on a bolt carrier, where the heat will render it ineffective. Everywhere else its fine, including on a castle nut.
I wouldnt trust Loctite on a castlenut if somebody else told me it was there. (its difficult to visually confirm its there and you dont know if the parts were properly degreased before its use) But if I installed something myself, I'd trust the loctite to hold it.
Re heat. Heating the guards to 300 deg will not hurt them. At that temp loctite red has lost half its holding strength. What matters is that you apply the heat carefully and locally to the screws.
Don
p.s. I dont pretend to know a whole lot about AR's. I'm here to learn. What I have to contribute is that I've worked on things mechanical for all my life. I roadraced motorcycles, I rebuilt an aerobatic airplane. I built a house (for what its worth). I've used a lot of loctite in my day, and disassembled a lot of parts joined correctly and incorrectly with loctite.
p.p.s. Buy the smallest tube you can find. For most of us, it will dry up before we run out. No sense spending $22 for the big bottle unless you are an engine buuilder or a gunsmith.
Whoa
Loctite has no place on an AR. hahahah. Its got no place on a bolt carrier, where the heat will render it ineffective. Everywhere else its fine, including on a castle nut.
Wrong.
It will seize the buffer tube to the castle nut and you will strip out the keyway in the buffer tube should you decide to remove the assembly.
Whoa
Re heat. Heating the guards to 300 deg will not hurt them. At that temp loctite red has lost half its holding strength. What matters is that you apply the heat carefully and locally to the screws.
Don
Can you tell me how you know you will heat this to 300 F and not 500 F or 800 F?
I've seen ARs without the use of Loc-Tite have ejecting optics etc in class.....YMMV.;)
excuse me, that was meant to be RED loctite.
blue loctite and optics mounts are fine.
and im sick to death of retards telling everyone else to loctite the damn castlenut. THAT IS NOT HOW THIS WAS ENGINEERED. THE CASTLE NUT IS NOT SUPPOSED TO BE PHYSICALLY LOCKED TO THE BUFFER TUBE. IT IS MEANT TO BE PHYSICALLY LOCKED TO THE PLATE...THAT IS HOW IT WAS DESIGNED.
thanks scottryan for jumping in on that one.
p.s. some day I'm going to make millions by buying brake cleaner and repackaging it as "USGIMOlleSocomPicatinnyA1 Assembly Cleaner" for $19/can
You forgot to use "tactical & M4" in your brand name.:p If the heat thing doesn't work & the head is stripped out, try a left handed drill bit to drill the screw out. It will generate heat as you drill & will also be applying a counterclockwise force which may back the screw out. This method has worked well for me on numerous occasions. use a soldering iron with no worries. PURE aluminum melts at approx 1200 degrees & the 60XX+ series that most aluminum gun parts are made melts at a much higher temperature than that.
Robb Jensen
01-30-09, 06:20
excuse me, that was meant to be RED loctite.
blue loctite and optics mounts are fine.
and im sick to death of retards telling everyone else to loctite the damn castlenut. THAT IS NOT HOW THIS WAS ENGINEERED. THE CASTLE NUT IS NOT SUPPOSED TO BE PHYSICALLY LOCKED TO THE BUFFER TUBE. IT IS MEANT TO BE PHYSICALLY LOCKED TO THE PLATE...THAT IS HOW IT WAS DESIGNED.
thanks scottryan for jumping in on that one.
I agree Loc-Tite shouldn't be used on the castle nut, receiver extension. Torque and staking hold this assembly together. Using torque and staking I've never had one come lose.
I sometimes use green Loc-Tite to 'bed' gas blocks to barrels and barrel extensions to upper receivers after lapping the front edge of the receiver threads. Lapping the upper receiver threads is sometimes used to allow the barrel nut to align/index under the 80ft lbs limit of barrel nut torque. Squaring up the receiver threads also ensures that the bore of the barrel is perfectly concentric to the bore of the upper receiver. These are methods that can get you under .5" MOA groups if using a good barrel and ammo. These are not things needed for plain M4 style guns. These are methods used for Varmint, Hi-Power and Precision guns where you're trying the squeeze all the accuracy that you can.
Red Loc-Tite doesn't hurt if used between the carrier key to carrier (it's used to create a better gas seal, not as a thread locker). Torque and staking will also hold this together well. But I have had them come lose when only using torque and staking.
I use red Loc-Tite or Rocksett to ensure a better gas seal. I also lap the bottom of the carrier key on a whetstone which ensures that it's perfectly flat and/or not warped. I also torque higher then the spec in the TM. I torque the carrier key screws to 50-55in lbs. My methods work very well. So well that I've never had to 'fix' a lose or leaking carrier key after using my methods and I've installed several hundred carrier keys to date.
To remove the screws and carrier key when using Rocksett the carrier must be submerged in water for 24hrs or more, for red Loc-tite removal it requires heat from a heatgun which takes about 5min. The carrier can survive either.
just a note: green loctite is the kind intended to be added AFTER the parts are installed.
Wow. Thats why I love this place already. I know mechanical things, but now that I understand this:
THE CASTLE NUT IS NOT SUPPOSED TO BE PHYSICALLY LOCKED TO THE BUFFER TUBE. IT IS MEANT TO BE PHYSICALLY LOCKED TO THE PLATE...THAT IS HOW IT WAS DESIGNED.
I understand the argument against using loctite. Its not that it wont hold, its that the castle nut should not be retained by the buffer tube, but rather by the end plate.
Robb Jensen
01-30-09, 07:05
just a note: green loctite is the kind intended to be added AFTER the parts are installed.
I can't get my big fingers between the gas block and barrel and/or barrel extension and upper receiver when they're assembled to add the green loc-tite. So I add it before assembling. YMMV. ;)
Well speaking of the favorite thing I love to hate (Loc-Tite). About 20 minutes ago some High Drag Low Speed operator (AT&T type) comes in with his issue Bushamster outfitted with some type of CAA "sniper stock". My first question was where did the stock come from and who installed it. I got the standard deer in headlights look and then "uh yeah so and so said it was okay and he put the stock on". I politely reminded him of the company SOP concerning weapons modifications. Next question was how do you remove this thing?
So we start pulling it apart and I see some type of set screw that goes down and locks into one of the recess holes on the lower receiver extension. Try and remove it, no dice. Well come to find out that someone put red Loc-Tite on the screw and then cranked it into place. After a few minutes of direct heat we were able to break it loose. Lessons learned:
1. CAA is crap anyways so why did you it?
2. It's always good to let the armorer install it so it is done correctly.
3. Know which type of Loc-Tite should be used for the intended application.
I agree Loc-Tite shouldn't be used on the castle nut, receiver extension. Torque and staking hold this assembly together. Using torque and staking I've never had one come lose.
I sometimes use green Loc-Tite to 'bed' gas blocks to barrels and barrel extensions to upper receivers after lapping the front edge of the receiver threads. Lapping the upper receiver threads is sometimes used to allow the barrel nut to align/index under the 80ft lbs limit of barrel nut torque. Squaring up the receiver threads also ensures that the bore of the barrel is perfectly concentric to the bore of the upper receiver. These are methods that can get you under .5" MOA groups if using a good barrel and ammo. These are not things needed for plain M4 style guns. These are methods used for Varmint, Hi-Power and Precision guns where you're trying the squeeze all the accuracy that you can.
Red Loc-Tite doesn't hurt if used between the carrier key to carrier (it's used to create a better gas seal, not as a thread locker). Torque and staking will also hold this together well. But I have had them come lose when only using torque and staking.
I use red Loc-Tite or Rocksett to ensure a better gas seal. I also lap the bottom of the carrier key on a whetstone which ensures that it's perfectly flat and/or not warped. I also torque higher then the spec in the TM. I torque the carrier key screws to 50-55in lbs. My methods work very well. So well that I've never had to 'fix' a lose or leaking carrier key after using my methods and I've installed several hundred carrier keys to date.
To remove the screws and carrier key when using Rocksett the carrier must be submerged in water for 24hrs or more, for red Loc-tite removal it requires heat from a heatgun which takes about 5min. The carrier can survive either.
these are some pretty fancy jedi master builds gotm4....i would argue that loctite at the gaskey probably doesnt last that long...i would imagine it would burn off at this location relatively quickly or just be dissolved by heat/pressure/solvents.
I really cant speak to loctite being used in any of those situations...as i have never done those things...
Loc-tite 609 will work on gas key screws. But, it still gets staked.
The Loctite people specifically recommend red Loctite for fasters 3/8" to 1" in diameter. Most screws on an AR are much smaller than that, so red Loctite really has no use on an AR. Using red on small screws leads to stripped or twisted off heads.
I use blue Loctite on all of my optics and rail mount clamps on my AR. The manufacturers of the mounts and BUIS I use either include blue loctite in the package, or specify it's use as well as torques for the fasteners.
When dealing with BIG bolts, an impact wrench or cheater bar is all you need to break red loctite.
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