View Full Version : KAC PDW (any interest in these)??
The purpose of this thread is to get an idea if people would be interested in buying a KAC PDW. This would be a FACTORY SBR and would have to be transfered via a C3 dealer.
Price would be somewhere near $3k we think.
C4
SPECS on the gun can be found here: http://www.knightarmco.com/images/pdw1.html
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v193/EvilKev/PDWCase.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v193/EvilKev/posterpdw.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v193/EvilKev/PDWRSStockClosed.jpg
NinjaMedic
01-23-09, 11:38
Absolutely!
Voodoochild
01-23-09, 11:40
Looks like a great weapon and am sure it will be a great seller but at 3K I cant touch it.
Derek_Connor
01-23-09, 11:50
How many guns would need to be sold to push hornaday over the edge to put the round into a regular manaf. schedule?
And if the answer is known and can be met, what would the price be for the 6x35mm per round?
With current 5.56 prices, would it even be "economically feasible" to train w/such a weapon?
If not, who would buy it? Collectors?
Then the question is how many KAC collectors would buy it? Then we are back to square 1/question 1
Its easy to say we want something....but with that comes a ton of other variables.
How many guns would need to be sold to push hornaday over the edge to put the round into a regular manaf. schedule?
No one really knows that, but am guessing it would need to be at least in the 1K range.
The hope is to also get some ammo companies to make a cheaper (training) round for it as well.
C4
Looks like a great weapon and am sure it will be a great seller but at 3K I cant touch it.
Ditto. And while I think you'd have a ton of interest and tire-kickers, actual sales would be limited by price, and then ammo availability/cost.
If I were a rich man...
John_Wayne777
01-23-09, 12:06
It's a cool looking blaster, but a bit out of my price range.
For those who haven't handled one, the PDW is a fantastic weapon. I really love it.
I, too, would be curious about the availability of the Hornady ammo as well as magazines.
I was able to fondle this back in summer of 2006 when I was going through the KAC SR-25 Course. It seemed really nice, but we weren't able to shoot it. If the price came down and ammo was more available it would be a seller. I just can't see it competing with the other stuff coming out in the near future. But, I would be tempted to get one for GP.
1882
1 - 2 years ago I would have bought one for $3,000
However, due to money problems now, there is no way I could pay more than $1,500 for any gun.
Jay Cunningham
01-23-09, 12:20
My simple question:
What does this package of KAC PDW and the 6x35mm round do better than a semi mk18 and the mk262 mod 1 (or 75 gr. TAP) round? What does it do better than a semi AKS-74U and the 5.45x39mm round?
If the PDW offers real and substanative improvements in lethality and reliability then I would consider one. If not, then I wouldn't.
Is there open source information available on the terminal effects of the new round? What about the operating system? The ad claims that "recoil is 50% less than a standard M4 carbine." I have never considered the recoil of a standard M4 carbine to be a cause for concern.
Of course my personal criteria all pertain to my "mission" as a civilan. Mission drives the gear train, so armored vehicle crews and PSD's / PMC's likely will have different criteria.
I hate to say this but yes only if it were chambered for the 5.56mm round.
IF the prices of 6mm came down significantly and its availability increased again, yes i would consider it but not unless these two criteria are met.
variablebinary
01-23-09, 13:00
At $3k it's not worth it to me...
I believe that the ballistics are superior (maybe Doc R. can chime in).
There will be more than one source of ammo and quality mags would be available from a source in Boulder. ;)
C4
From what I know, nah. I'll pass. Nothing against the weapon but trying to simplfy my life lately and another "fussy lady" is not something I'm interested in at this point.
Obviously DocGKR is better than I to discuss the 6x35 round terminally.
Its a 65gr BTHP round at 2400fps - compared to a 77gr at around 2100fps with the Mk262 (IIRC)
It penetrates LIIIA armor out to 275m (at least...)
Two other ammo companies have expressed interest in producing ammunition, and Magpul has offered to make mags if we desire (or if you, the customer, desire)
Obviously the civlian user will not get the same gains as other user of this system, for the low profile, covert ability of the PDW is the prime point of the fact the stock folds, and it slimline and yet retain the M16FOW muscle memory.
The gun even with the 8" barrel is nothing like shooting a Mk18, it is much more controllable and follow up shots are easily made in a quicker time frame.
A great deal of people have expressed huge interest in this, however in order for this to be a civilian sale item, we would have to be sure that it is a viable product, one that we would see a good return on investment, as machine time used for this, could be used for others systems, and when running at full production, the opportunity cost of producing other items cannot be discounted.
didn't even notice it had the fancy shmancy compensator on the end. Cool.
Jay Cunningham
01-23-09, 13:43
Obviously DocGKR is better than I to discuss the 6x35 round terminally.
Its a 65gr BTHP round at 2400fps - compared to a 77gr at around 2100fps with the Mk262 (IIRC)
It penetrates LIIIA armor out to 275m (at least...)
Two other ammo companies have expressed interest in producing ammunition, and Magpul has offered to make mags if we desire (or if you, the customer, desire)
Obviously the civlian user will not get the same gains as other user of this system, for the low profile, covert ability of the PDW is the prime point of the fact the stock folds, and it slimline and yet retain the M16FOW muscle memory.
The gun even with the 8" barrel is nothing like shooting a Mk18, it is much more controllable and follow up shots are easily made in a quicker time frame.
A great deal of people have expressed huge interest in this, however in order for this to be a civilian sale item, we would have to be sure that it is a viable product, one that we would see a good return on investment, as machine time used for this, could be used for others systems, and when running at full production, the opportunity cost of producing other items cannot be discounted.
That was very informative Kev, and answered most of my questions.
Personally, no I would not buy one (as a civilian) as I have no need for one. A lot of new firearms fall into that category for me.
Along the same lines as others, I think it's a very interesting weapon but except as a collectible/CDI gun I wouldn't be able to justify $3k for it unless it demonstrated some feature(s) that made it worth twice the price of an M4.
The 6x35 mm is the best SMG/PDW cartridge yet introduced. Unlike 5.56 mm, 6x35mm is optimized for 8-10" barrels and suppresses nicely. 6x35 mm fills the CQB niche very well and is far superior to the 4.6mm and 5.7mm. 6x35mm can fill the same sling carried PDW role as the old M1/M2 carbine, but in a more compact and ergonomic package. In the SMG role, 6x35mm can replace the MP5 for CQB/HR, offering better terminal ballistics and longer effective range, in a similar sized and controllable package. With 10" and under barrels, 6x35mm and 6.8 mm are the best bets from a terminal ballistic perspective.
The big question for KAC is whether the PDW weapon platform functioning issues were resolved and whether they are going to allow Hornady to publicly release the cartridge...
CarlosDJackal
01-23-09, 13:51
Man, I'd love to get one but add the price and availability of ammo to the $3k and I'd have to sell off a bunch of what I already have just to get one.
I may have to wait for the actual price to go down AND for the ammo to be readily available. This is basically the same reason I have not even considered getting anything in 6.8.
Doc - the problem you refer too was in some early high round count guns - they have since been rebuilt, and sent back to work. We had two out at the OCSR prior to SHOT, and we had some shooting the monday after.
I do not believe it is us holding the round from release...
Trey can obviously comment on the system better than I, but I am very impressed with the trigger time that I have on it - and I think it will put the Sig552 out to pasture permanently. Chen?SMGLee has some nice pictures of it at SHOT for those interested in less sterile photo's.
quality mags would be available from a source in Boulder. ;)
C4
That's a good move IMO. When I first saw the PDW and the original mags (milled), I immediately thought that the best possible solution would be a "PDWmag".
I find this concept very intriguing. This would probably take the place of my primary 5.56 platform. But two things get in the way, price and NFA regs. I live in a state that will not allow SBR’s, so I would need a 16” barrel. And even I did live in an SBR friendly state, I’d have a hard time justifying $3k. Under $2k would be more feasible for me. If it’s the same price as a top notch AR like a Noveske, KAC, MRP, etc. at about $2k, it makes more sense.
I’m going to throw this out there to see if it sticks. Could KAC partner with someone else to make a similar, but simpler version of this? Not the exact same thing, but something that was easier and less expensive to manufacture but shared many of the same parts (upper, bolt, barrel, mags, etc.). I look at the ball end mill cuts on the barrel and know there is some money that could be saved there. Collaborate with Magpul to design a polymer lower, stock, and PDWmag. Then partner with someone else like CMT or BCM to make the metal parts, or keep those in house depending on capacity. KAC can do final assembly. Lengthen the rail a couple of inches and install a 10” barrel in a SBR configuration or a 16” for us losers in NFA unfriendly states. Keep the KAC PDW as a halo product above it in the product line. Try to get the per unit price under $2k, maybe closer to $1500. This would open the market up and allow the kind of economics of scale that is necessary to make a polymer lower and mag possible. If you sell enough you might get ammo companies to buy in and produce more ammo for it.
Just thinkin' out loud.
Glad to hear the PDW is running well. The last I checked, the guys at Hornady stated they couldn't release the cartridge to general public usage without KAC's permission because it was a custom proprietary KAC cartridge... I'll follow up with them.
When are you guys going to do some 6.8 mm 1/12 twist improved chamber guns?
I'd love to see an upscaled PDW platform in 6.8
I will inquire on the ammo.
Looks like a nifty little platform.
Cons for me.
20-25% too costly
Ammo commonality.
OH,... and the fact my states a bunch of jack nuts and doesn't allow SBR's
Army Chief
01-23-09, 15:33
I very much like concept, though as a practical matter I'm not sure how quite to respond, given the fact that we are talking about proprietary everything, from the barrel to the magazines to the chambering itself. It's not so much the price point that makes this a hard call, but rather the fact that in civil (and non-select fire) SBR guise, there are other alternatives that don't tie us to the 6x35mm loading -- thought I realize that to protest that fact is to miss the whole point.
Now, as a military helicopter pilot would I like to be issued a PDW as my primary defensive arm? Without a doubt. The potential of the system is in that sense very clear. In private hands? Who can really say. Like Kevin said, if I'm looking to go non-standard, then 6.8mm is the direction in which I will likely move.
Ammunition remains the single greatest wild card, and in that sense, a military contract would almost certainly result in positive spillover for civilian applications. To expect things to go the other way around, though, might be one bridge too far.
AC
Grant, I would buy three of these and 150 mags in a heartbeat. In fact, I would be more than happy to put down a deposit or full payment. How do I get on your list?
Email headed your way.
I'd love to see an upscaled PDW platform in 6.8
I will inquire on the ammo.
Now we're talking!
Obviously DocGKR is better than I to discuss the 6x35 round terminally.
Its a 65gr BTHP round at 2400fps - compared to a 77gr at around 2100fps with the Mk262 (IIRC)
It penetrates LIIIA armor out to 275m (at least...)
Two other ammo companies have expressed interest in producing ammunition, and Magpul has offered to make mags if we desire (or if you, the customer, desire)
Obviously the civlian user will not get the same gains as other user of this system, for the low profile, covert ability of the PDW is the prime point of the fact the stock folds, and it slimline and yet retain the M16FOW muscle memory.
The gun even with the 8" barrel is nothing like shooting a Mk18, it is much more controllable and follow up shots are easily made in a quicker time frame.
A great deal of people have expressed huge interest in this, however in order for this to be a civilian sale item, we would have to be sure that it is a viable product, one that we would see a good return on investment, as machine time used for this, could be used for others systems, and when running at full production, the opportunity cost of producing other items cannot be discounted.
Kevin, PLEASE make this happen! I need three.
The 6x35 mm is the best SMG/PDW cartridge yet introduced. Unlike 5.56 mm, 6x35mm is optimized for 8-10" barrels and suppresses nicely. 6x35 mm fills the CQB niche very well and is far superior to the 4.6mm and 5.7mm. 6x35mm can fill the same sling carried PDW role as the old M1/M2 carbine, but in a more compact and ergonomic package. In the SMG role, 6x35mm can replace the MP5 for CQB/HR, offering better terminal ballistics and longer effective range, in a similar sized and controllable package. With 10" and under barrels, 6x35mm and 6.8 mm are the best bets from a terminal ballistic perspective.
Is there any data relative to the 6x35mm vs. 5.56 in a non-SBR-length barrel? Say, a 16"? Does the improved effectiveness relative to 5.56 fall off as barrel length increases?
SeriousStudent
01-23-09, 17:28
I think it is quite interesting, and I appreciate the work that went into it.
Would KAC produce the suppresser internally? Or partner with another organziation?
I think I would find myself in the same situation as Mr. Bell did with his lovely M4/416 build. I'd like to have one, and would likely sell an EBR and a pistol to do so. That's really what you are talking about for three grand. That's not a bad swap for something coming from KAC. :)
Especially if Magpul and Hornady were cooperating on the project.
Thanks for planting the seed, Grant.
What about a pistol version that an aftermarket manufacturer had agreed to make a stock.
There are ammo comparisons out there - I will see if anything open source can be published.
A 16`version - interest.
I'm very glad to see the PDW offered to civilians, even if only in limited quantities.
I would love to have one, but right now $3k is not doable. The limited ammo is also a negative consideration. Until another cartridge is adopted in large scale by the military, 5.56 will remain the only affordable round for training or plinking.
What about a pistol version that an aftermarket manufacturer had agreed to make a stock.
Now that might be a route to go.
Anything CIII is going to be a pain in the ass, both on the KAC end and the dealer end.
IrishDevil
01-23-09, 18:12
Ammunition cost and availability, are my main two concerns. The price of the weapon isn't that large of a concern for me at 3K, considering what it is. The pistol concept and being able to alter later, would be much easier IMO. I'd have to see some numbers as far as what the total would be on:
1) the weapon
2) 50 mags
3) parts kit for minor rebuild/maintenance
4) initial 10,000 rds of ammunition stockpile
I've been intrigued by this rifle since the first time I saw it.
I'd love to own one. I think the weapon and the cartridge are interesting, well thought out designs. I would buying it as a collectible gun and $3,000 would be really hard to justify, I spend too much on guns as is. At $2,000 I would think hard about it-I could sell off one of my short barreled PS90s.
It would be great if KAC does this, but even at 2K I suspect it would be a real niche seller.
RogerinTPA
01-23-09, 19:11
Nice concept. The weapon is bad ass to say the least. For commonality of ammo, I'd like to see a version in 5.56.
If it were 2K then I and a friend would be all over it. 3K is way high for "mere" mortals.
SpartanArms
01-23-09, 20:30
C4IGrant and KevB,
I would definitely be interested in a KAC PDW, either as a factory SBR or as a pistol with an option for an aftermarket stock. I would be f'in overjoyed if you guys could get a street price around $2,500-$2,800. If KAC can get the ammo produced by a couple companies (including an option for less expensive training ammo) and can get Magpul to make mags I would definitely sell off one (or two) of my custom 1911s to finance one of these!:D Kudos to KAC if they can make it a reality.
olds442tyguy
01-24-09, 01:45
If I came upon the money, I'd buy one. My financial situation currently limits me to only wishing I could buy one though.
Now if it were an upscaled version in 5.56 (or 6.8), I'd probably stretch and get one. In fact, I think it'd be more successful in all aspects chambered in 5.56.
I would buy one, but I would rather stay married.
In a few years, if they are available, yes. But too rich for my blood at this juncture.
Very slick looking blaster. It would be a great weapon to issue to aircrews, small boat patrols, or any place where space is at a premium.
AnchorArmament
01-24-09, 08:15
The PDW being released to the public is the best thing I've heard. There was plenty of hot new hardware at SHOT, but the PDW is the one item you cannot get from anyone else in any variation.
What about a pistol version that an aftermarket manufacturer had agreed to make a stock.
There are ammo comparisons out there - I will see if anything open source can be published.
A 16`version - interest.
A pistol version is a good idea as it gets around the SOT issue and then people can FORM 1 it and avoid C3 dealer transfer fees.
C4
A pistol version is a good idea as it gets around the SOT issue and then people can FORM 1 it and avoid C3 dealer transfer fees.
C4
I would prefer a factory SBR so I don't have to do a form 1 and "tatoo" the lower with the engraving on a $3000 gun.
baffle Stack
01-24-09, 14:17
Pmags and Pistol version FTW.
The ammo seems to be the only thing stopping this from being a civilian hit!
the opportunity cost of producing other items cannot be discounted.
that's the key
it's a cool gun, but please do not let this thing interfere with shipping the M110 !!!
Army Chief
01-24-09, 15:31
I would prefer a factory SBR so I don't have to do a form 1 and "tatoo" the lower with the engraving on a $3000 gun.
Concur, but could the lower not be sent to KAC at a later date, re-entered in their books as an SBR, and transferred back to the owner as an NFA weapon without any engraving requirement?
Yes, this could potentially add a bit to KAC's workload, but if it serves to stimulate more up front sales, it might not be an altogether ill-advised approach. The first hurdle seems to lie just in getting the market at large to embrace it, and a pistol configuration would definitely help in that regard.
AC
There is nothing comparable in the market now to Knight's PDW.
While the MP7 has certainly stitched many savages smart... the terminal ballictics are poor and punching through even light intermediate barriers such as foilage is problematic.. forget about cars or anything substantial.
I am a fan of the KAC PDW, esp if the usual developmental reliability issues have been worked through. From size / compactness of the weapon to the ballistics of the cartridge.. there is nothing like it. You can have something ready to smack 0-250 in a laptop case or under a jacket.
I would purchase one at this price point.
Wondering
-difficult barrel swap? can a qualified armorer switchout between 8 & 10"
-will magazines be available in 20rd (for conceal/carry) and 40rd for smackery?
-is there a suppresor that encapsulates the extended portion of the 10" barrel for the overall shortest available OAL?
-what direction retail ammunition is going
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/78/Cousin_Eddie.jpg
BINGO!
C4
Concur, but could the lower not be sent to KAC at a later date, re-entered in their books as an SBR, and transferred back to the owner as an NFA weapon without any engraving requirement?
Yes, this could potentially add a bit to KAC's workload, but if it serves to stimulate more up front sales, it might not be an altogether ill-advised approach. The first hurdle seems to lie just in getting the market at large to embrace it, and a pistol configuration would definitely help in that regard.
AC
I doubt it and know of no other company that is willing to do this.
C4
variablebinary
01-24-09, 16:42
The more I look at that thing the more it looks like a mini XCR.
Does it feature a QD barrel?
Army Chief
01-24-09, 17:11
I doubt it and know of no other company that is willing to do this.
C4
You're likely right, Grant. I do know that there is at least one manufacturer willing to do this in special cases when we're talking about lower receivers, but it is likely a different case with a completed Title I weapon, where Federal Excise Taxes and who-knows-what may be involved.
AC
I would prefer a factory SBR so I don't have to do a form 1 and "tatoo" the lower with the engraving on a $3000 gun.
Exactly. I want an all KAC sbr without having to engrave my info.
EvilSpeculator556
01-24-09, 22:19
I believe that the ballistics are superior (maybe Doc R. can chime in).
There will be more than one source of ammo and quality mags would be available from a source in Boulder. ;)
C4
Well.....then put me down for four. Just as long as you can get me 100 mags from that company in Boulder and a pallet of ammo. :D
A factory SBR is the only realistic option.
A pistol option will involve too much messing around as KAC would have to send out stocks separate from the guns.
Army Chief
01-25-09, 02:44
I suppose you're right, Scott.
A pistol version would be more convenient in the near-term legal sense, but that's about it. A non-SBR configuration takes a lot away from the weapon's potential, and would only result in needless inconvenience to the core market.
There are many precedents for going the NFA route, and I don't see the PDW as having much appeal to the average gun shop browser to begin with -- might as well focus on the customers you really want to be dealing with, and eliminate the wild card factors.
AC
I would have recommend a certain company from Boulder Co. to make the aftermarket stocks...
There will be a select fire gov sale gun.
A semi SBR would involved very little change, just no autosear setup, and marking SAFE, SEMI, rather than the full meal deal, and marked KMC.
pistol could simply be a SBR w/o the stock assembled on at the factory.
- All that is going on is some market research, no promises yet guys ;)
Personally I just don't have a need for one at $3k and in semi auto. If I could own one in select fire, then I would certainly consider it. However, in a SBR format and the magazine in front of the trigger, what clear advantage would I gain in using it instead of an AR SBR in 6.8 SPC?
I much prefer H&K's concept of keeping the magazine in the grip which cuts down on the size, improves balance, and makes for easier magazine exchanges(fist to fist). Unfortunately H&K uses that puny 4.6mm tumbler which may be good for hit probability, but the best it can do is keyhole wounding terminally.
The PDW fits the same criteria for me as a SMG. Useless in civilian legal semi auto format in comparison to a true assault rifle and assault rifle caliber.
welchtactical
01-25-09, 09:55
Late getting to the party here. 3K is alot of money... but I'd still like one. I've been all over the PDW since I first saw it. a 2-2500 price range would be a little easier to deal with as it would be in the same price range as most piston ARs. A 16'' barrel would be great! But I would do the paper work on a pistol to SBR it. There would have to be a good supply of ammo, maybe one of the smaller companies that produce 6.8 could help out. I'd love to have a Mil version for getting in and out the truck or ASV. A PDW Pmag would just bring the CDI factor up! Keep pushing!:D
Army Chief
01-25-09, 10:11
However... what clear advantage would I gain in using it instead of an AR SBR in 6.8 SPC?
Not at all interested in tanking the concept here, but this has been the one nagging thought that I've had all along. A sub-10" 6.8 would seem to provide much the same utility without the ammunition availability concerns.
I'm a KAC proponent, but I do feel that the real potential for the PDW lies much more with official agency sales than with those of us who would have to settle for a non-select-fire, NFA-restricted cousin.
AC
tiger seven
01-25-09, 10:53
I much prefer H&K's concept of keeping the magazine in the grip which cuts down on the size, improves balance, and makes for easier magazine exchanges(fist to fist). Unfortunately H&K uses that puny 4.6mm tumbler which may be good for hit probability, but the best it can do is keyhole wounding terminally.
I'm sure that one of KAC's concerns in designing the PDW was to factor in the many, many hours of training that their typical end user (.gov) would have with the M16 FOW. Hence the familiar controls and overall setup, but in a package that's smaller and lighter than even the Mk18, and has reduced recoil and reduced muzzle blast yet still retains excellent terminal performance.
I don't think I have a need for one of these, and I certainly KNOW I can't afford one! But I would like to see more KAC products on the commercial market, so I hope this project proves to be worth the effort.
Derek
I would easily purchase one right now if Grant were taking deposits. If it works as advertised I would probably get a second as a back-up to the primary.
Magpul mags - great idea!
$3K price point is doable IMHO. Would I like to see it less?? Absolutely, but given current market realities and pricing of new semi-auto guns, $3K for a real deal KAC PDW is worth it. FN SCARs have been selling at outrageous prices, SIG 556 Classic is at the $2K+ mark, new Stey A3 AUGs are retail at over $2.2K, etc.
This is the best PDW on the market - better ballistically than MP7 and PS90. If enough of these are purchased other ammo makers will join the mix.
KAC - please hook us up!!!!
SCL
Interest, yes, but not $3k interest. The only thing I could think of to drop it into a more reasonable price range ($1k-2k range) would be a serious gamble, probably too big of a gamble, on the part of KAC: tool up, make a ton of them, sign whatever needs signing to make the ammo commercially available, take the short-term hit while focusing on volume (though keeping to spec, of course), and slowly recoup costs by offering them at a price that's actually competitive with an AR15. So far as I know, only three or four companies have the manufacturing capability to even consider that option, much less the mind to actually try it.
Let's face it, most gun owners aren't rich, even the shooters. If a rifle can't compete with an AR15 in price, I'd argue that most gun owners honestly won't consider it.
-B
I'd be in for one, but I don't have the money right now or in the near future. It would definitely be something I'd save up for though.
I have no interest in a 5.56 version, for me the attraction is the cartridges ability to operate best out of the short barrel. A 6.8 version would be attractive provided the ballistics were still good.
Ammunition cost and availability would certainly be an issue to overcome.
yak
I'd love to see an upscaled PDW platform in 6.8
I will inquire on the ammo.
I would jump on the opportunity to own one of the PDW's if it was 6.8 SPC and in the ballpark of $2500.00. I might even consider to buy 2 at that price, 3K just seems on the high end.
Interested. $2500 or less would be a guaranteed purchase.
Issues:
Ammo availability. I bought a PS90 and I had a terrible time finding ammo. I sold it because that reason and the anemic performance. The KAC PDW would not have the issue with ammo performance.
Ammo cost. We're all spoiled by the old ammo prices out there ($75/500 XM193 days). This would probably be an issue if you can't keep ammo to the cost of 7.62 NATO ammo less. Hopefully a "Wolf" cost level ammo could be available and a higher end defensive ammo level would be welcomed as well. Heck, if you could figure out a way to build a little .22LR conversion that would be a way around it as well.
Magazine availability. There are some really expensive mags out there (KAC SR25 for instance) and I really dislike that. If you could get mags down to basically $1 a round capacity they are doable. $20 for a 30 rounder is very reasonable.
That's it...
Spooky
thopkins22
01-25-09, 20:59
A lot of people seem to say that $2500 is acceptable while $3000 is a little steep. If I'm remembering the projected price from the other thread correctly, couldn't KAC leave the $500 muzzle brake off(or make it optional) and make that mark?
A lot of people seem to say that $2500 is acceptable while $3000 is a little steep. If I'm remembering the projected price from the other thread correctly, couldn't KAC leave the $500 muzzle brake off(or make it optional) and make that mark?
Why don't you just not buy one case of decent quality 5.56 or 7.62 ammo to cover that $500 spread?
If this comes as pictured then you are getting quality rails and BUIS included in that price...which you would drop several more $C notes to purchase in order to get your Colt 6920 up to speed.
I absolutely disagree that if a semi auto isn't priced in the AR range then it doesn't have a chance. FN2000's are over that price point, SCARs will be over that price point, MSARs are over that price point, new AUG will be over that price point, etc. Pricing has changed in the marketplace due to a new President. $2K+ for a quality semi is the price to play these days...unfortunately.
Folks are dropping $3K these days for Noveske AR10s, Magpul/Larue 7.62s, etc. Hell, folks are paying $1800 for uppers with quality barrels, rail system etc.
Would I like to see this at $2500? Of course! Is it worth $3K? Of course! How many folks out there really wouldn't get this because they thought it was a case of ammo overpriced?? This is the best PDW on the market (for agencies)and far better than a FNPS90 - which some folks were paying upwards of $2K for when they first came out.
SCL
I'd be interested even at that price point (if I had the money to blow) IF it wasn't in a proprietary chambering... Make it 6.8 and get Magpul to make STANAG compatible mags for it and I could see KAC selling everyone they made.
KingsideRook
01-26-09, 00:44
If I could buy a gun to put away and JUST have for inevitable collectible status, I would make it the KAS PDW. If I had $3,000 free, I would be asking Grant to send me a Form 4. But, in this economy, I can't feed what I have now and still remodel a house, and I have to put at least one 9mm pistol on the "must have" list, and a 6.8 SBR on the "need" list, before an odd caliber that I can't find at the local gun store. I would just have to be solely an unfired collectible, and I wish I had the funds to make that happen, after everything else that I hope I have funds to buy this year...it's bad when you may not have spare cash to pick up a used Glock for 6-8 months. :(
An upscaled 6.8SPC would climb my list, quickly. KevinB, if you can get this gun made in 6.8SPC, it would probably be the fastest selling SBR you've ever made.
Iraq Ninja
01-26-09, 08:58
An upscaled 6.8SPC would climb my list, quickly. KevinB, if you can get this gun made in 6.8SPC, it would probably be the fastest selling SBR you've ever made.
KevinB, correct me if I am wrong, but this weapon system is all about the round, and people wanting it upscaled in different calibers are ignorant of the R&D behind this system and what the need for such a system really is.
If the weapon lives up to its claims, and the ballistics are as good as KAC says they are, then these would be a perfect weapon for close protection PSD teams in a low to medium threat environment. Associates of mine would gladly order hundreds of them now, if ammo was available in large quantities, and if it and the weapon were available for export.
The price is fine and the organizations that need it, will gladly pay for it, but not unless you can buy pallets of ammo. It also needs to be a proven system, and that will take more than You Tube and TV show episodes.
As the title of this thread states, its all about interest in the system, and that boils down to either a want or a need. Clearly, there is a desire among the average gun enthusiast, but I suspect KAC is going for the needs of organizations, rather than the wants of well meaning firearm owners.
Most members of this forum don't have such a need. If they did, we wouldn't have all the sad, lamenting postings explaining how they would like to have one, but can't for various reasons. :)
As the title of this thread states, its all about interest in the system, and that boils down to either a want or a need. Clearly, there is a desire among the average gun enthusiast, but I suspect KAC is going for the needs of organizations, rather than the wants of well meaning firearm owners.
That, right there. This is not a weapon that is going to appeal to the average gun owner (especially at the potential price). It is, however, a weapon designed in for that specific niche all PDWs are, the purpose of which makes it more desirable to organizations who would, or believe they might, step in danger's way.
-B
Most members of this forum don't have such a need. If they did, we wouldn't have all the sad, lamenting postings explaining how they would like to have one, but can't for various reasons. :)
Which is why I have little to no interest in one. However...
It sounds like without commercial sales the production gun is not likely to see reality. But since we've established that no commercial buyers have a "need", it becomes all about the "want", and frankly more about the uniqueness in terms of something to put in the safe, post pictures on the internet, and trot out to the local public range to garner stares.
Not that there's anything wrong with that... :D
Well, I have a want and a need for this type of weapon. And I am going to purchase PSD type one shortly, was looking at a 8" 6.8, and was already in the $2500 area, so $500 more is not that big a deal.
IF I can be assured of ammunition availability, magazine availability, and frankly I can see a little data of the performance of this platform you could count me in. I have heard good things about it although from the tenor of the board it does not look like there would be enough of us to validate the production, but perhaps I am wrong.
A 5.56 in this size package would be little more then an expensive .22 and would not interest me in the slightest. And a factory SBR would be the preferable platform to save me the engraving hassle.
Commerical Sale and gov sale are not interlinked , if there is a version of either is not dependant upon the other.
The question was mainly whether or no there is civilian interest to produce a semi auto version.
For personnel asking for 5.56mm or 6.8SPC or 7.62x39 or even 7.62NATO
The gun was designed around the round - so its not like this sytem will just be dropped onto the marker in a different calibre. The fully curved mag is not STANAG, this curve helps with the reliability of feeding. The size of the PDW and its round are the selling points to entities that wish to use them for the role it was developed. This was started as a simple question to see what civilian interest there was, as at SHOT everyone who saw it, claimed to want a semi, and everyone here at KAC that has shot it, wants a civilian semi.
Yes there is a market on the civilian side for various other 'versions' however this system was designed to make a effective short barreled weapon system, for M16FOW muscle memory, handling, controllability, low recoil, and accuracy.
-Kev
decodeddiesel
01-26-09, 13:32
I'd love to see an upscaled PDW platform in 6.8
This with a 16" non-NFA option barrel and I would be interested for $3000.
Army Chief
01-26-09, 13:35
I think you really touched upon the central issue right there, Kevin -- this is one of those things that is just far enough outside of the realm of experience for most, that all we can do is engage in semi-informed conjecture.
Ten minutes on a range with a PDW would likely persuade even the most skeptical among us, but barring that, our collective frame of reference is less practical than it is speculative.
Clearly, a caliber change would, by definition, leave us with an entirely different weapon -- and essentially a derivation of AR systems that we already have available to us.
AC
and unfortunately I can't afford to fly you all here to shot it ;)
and unfortunately I can't afford to fly you all here to shot it ;)
I can drive myself.... if that was something you needed... being that I'm only 2 hours away and all...
:cool:
I think I may end up with ammo bill as unfortunately if I let you come, a lot of others in the vicinty would show up...
Hey I'm in St. Augustine........hrmm......*ponders taking a trip*
Having had the opportunity to shoot one last summer, I was very impressed with it. Excellent handling, balance, etc.. Controlability with the round was great as well. Granted, I didnt get to fire a case of ammo through it, but what little I did left me wanting one. Unfortuntely, $3k is out of my price range............ at the moment.
KingsideRook
01-26-09, 15:38
KevinB, correct me if I am wrong, but this weapon system is all about the round, and people wanting it upscaled in different calibers are ignorant of the R&D behind this system and what the need for such a system really is.
If the weapon lives up to its claims, and the ballistics are as good as KAC says they are, then these would be a perfect weapon for close protection PSD teams in a low to medium threat environment. Associates of mine would gladly order hundreds of them now, if ammo was available in large quantities, and if it and the weapon were available for export.
The price is fine and the organizations that need it, will gladly pay for it, but not unless you can buy pallets of ammo. It also needs to be a proven system, and that will take more than You Tube and TV show episodes.
As the title of this thread states, its all about interest in the system, and that boils down to either a want or a need. Clearly, there is a desire among the average gun enthusiast, but I suspect KAC is going for the needs of organizations, rather than the wants of well meaning firearm owners.
Most members of this forum don't have such a need. If they did, we wouldn't have all the sad, lamenting postings explaining how they would like to have one, but can't for various reasons. :)
I'm aware of the round, and the firearm designed around it, and it's excellent capabilities at extended ranges out of the short barrel, etc - Doctor Robert's endorsement of it's capabilities is taken by me to be correct, of course. I'm very interested in the design of the KAC PDW, and a lot of what makes it different from an SBR AR15 platform is very enticing - it's a whole new design.
The reason I requested a 6.8 variant, not presuming to speak for others, is not that the 6x35 is not "familiar", but rather, is just not available. If those interested organizations you speak of do in fact pick up pallets and hundreds of the KAC PDW, and thus cause the entire ammo manufacturing industry to catch up on 6x35 production with even half the support that the 6.8 SPC has seen, and release it onto the civilian market, then it would be a moot point. Since the 6x35 doesn't have a drop-in market like the AR15 platform to build on, that might be harder to do. I'm not even saying they SHOULD do it - it may fly right in the face of the KAC philosophy for the PDW as a "system" and I wouldn't fault them if they didn't change a thing. I'm not the projected end user for it, and if it works good in the role, then more power to them.
If the KAC guns don't ever make the civilian market in quantity, then no need to pursue an alternate, similarly capable caliber like 6.8SPC - the people who will use them for "work" will very likely not be buying either gun or ammo with their own funds, and availability of both will be up to the people who supply them direct. But, since the discussion is about civilian sales, then the availability issue is a factor.
Please don't think I'm attempting to drag the conversation down, but the observation stands - I think they'd have a lot easier of a time selling a 6.8 caliber PDW, at this point in time, on the civilian market. If 5 years from now, the 6x35 is in use, multiple-manufacturer supported, and readily available after the fashion of 6.8, then it would be a different situation, and I'd re-consider my choice accordingly. A civilian, semi-auto release, like KevinB mentions there is so much interest in, might sell enough to get it to that point. I'm not saying they won't sell them, just rather that it would be higher up my list in a caliber I can get more readily.
I would take take either a factory SBR, or pistol to be converted. My preference would be factory built rifle. Kev, will the price include the fancy crazy expensive flash hider?
3k isn't out of line when you start comparing the actual features...compare a similar factory m4 piston SBR, with a rail, and BUIS.
I ask those with arguments against the PDW on the basis of ammunition to consider the following.
The 5.7, which was designed from the ground up as a PDW round to be shot from a short-barreled weapon (the P90). You will not find many manufacturers making other 5.7 guns because it is a PDW round, which is to say, it does nothing for normal civilians that something else cannot do better. People don't hunt with it, and generally don't shoot much with it even out of that awkward/clunky handgun chambered in that caliber. Yet, despite it being doomed to a slow death by critics, the 5.7 lives on and grows slowly in popularity (especially as .223 and 5.56 increase in price), even though there are only two guns being made for it. Now that 5.7 AR uppers exist, it will continue to grow in popularity. All this, despite the fact that it's only a PDW round.
The 6x35 is in the exact same position. It is a PDW round; it could be the perfect round for its intended role, but most civilians will never be in a position to utilize this. To most civilians, it's another caliber, and doesn't fill any particular civilian need. However, as I illustrated in my earlier example, if KAC can put some advertising and especially manufacturing muscle behind their PDW, both it and its proprietary caliber will live (maybe even thrive). Heck, maybe they go crazy and make an AR upper for 6x33 to sweeten the deal. My main argument is that in order to garner serious commercial interest on the civilian market, the KAC PDW is going to need to be priced competitively. $3000 isn't competitive.
Now, if KAC prices it similarly to their SR-15 E3, they could probably strike gold. Again, that's a serious initial investment/risk.
-B
KingsideRook
01-26-09, 20:45
Arguments against the weapon on the basis of ammunition fail for two primary reasons.
First, the 5.7, which was designed from the ground up as a PDW round to be shot from a short-barreled weapon (the P90). You will not find many manufacturers making other 5.7 guns because it is a PDW round, which is to say, it does nothing for normal civilians that something else cannot do better. Yet the 5.7, which was doomed to be mothballed by critics, continues and grows slowly in popularity (especially as .223 and 5.56 increase in price), despite only two guns being made for it. I would argue that now that 5.7 AR uppers exist, it will continue to grow in popularity.
The 6x35 is in the exact same position. It is a PDW round; it could be the perfect round for its role, but most civilians will never be in a position to utilize this. To most civilians, it's another caliber, and doesn't fill any particular civilian need. However, if KAC can put some advertising and manufacturing muscle behind their PDW, both it and its proprietary caliber will live (maybe even thrive). Heck, maybe they go crazy and make an AR upper for 6x33 to sweeten the deal. My main argument is that in order to garner serious commercial interest on the civilian market, the KAC PDW is going to need to be priced competitively. $3000 isn't competitive.
Now, if KAC prices it similarly to their SR-15 E3, they could probably strike gold. Again, that's a serious initial investment/risk.
-B
I actually kind of agree, because the two have somewhat different "introductory" circumstances. If the KAC PDW were priced similarly to the FN P90, used extensively by the Belgians, and on Stargate SG-1 ;) and had a matching pistol marketed with it, and perhaps most importantly, had had ammo available in quantity, for the same price with no increases for 4 years, I think the caliber would probably be less of an issue for general civilian demand, because of both the reduced initial investment, and publicity both.
Many people could sit on a $1200 rifle, waiting for my local gun store to get some more ammo - $3000, they wait until both show up on the shelf, and think long and hard before they reach for their Visa. I used to sell P90s to retail customers, and those aforementioned characteristics(in use with the "X" brigade, saw it on Stargate, get the pistol too, ammo's been $21.99 since 2003, only $1.2k, etc) did more to sell them than any discussion of 5.7 ballistics.
I'm not saying popularity or publicity should rule what sells well and what doesn't - it doesn't affect my purchases outside of "can I get ammo and parts for it readily", but if the question is "widespread popularity" among civvie buyers, then let's admit it, a lot more rich doctors and lawyers buying nice toys for themselves, or people who just got their tax refund and want a shiny new toy, will make the difference there, the really informed, M4Carbine.net reading consumer is probably in the minority by comparison.
Many people could sit on a $1200 rifle, waiting for my local gun store to get some more ammo - $3000, they wait until both show up on the shelf, and think long and hard before they reach for their Visa. I used to sell P90s to retail customers, and those aforementioned characteristics(in use with the "X" brigade, saw it on Stargate, get the pistol too, ammo's been $21.99 since 2003, only $1.2k, etc) did more to sell them than any discussion of 5.7 ballistics.
I'm not saying popularity or publicity should rule what sells well and what doesn't - it doesn't affect my purchases outside of "can I get ammo and parts for it readily", but if the question is "widespread popularity" among civvie buyers, then let's admit it, a lot more rich doctors and lawyers buying nice toys for themselves, or people who just got their tax refund and want a shiny new toy, will make the difference there, the really informed, M4Carbine.net reading consumer is probably in the minority by comparison.
Completely agreed on all points, especially that first sentence. I would be willing to up the ante on the PS90 simply because of the better gun that I suspect the KAC PDW is, but anything more than $2k and there needs to be some kind of guarantee or assurance of support in place for someone to buy that weapon.
-B
I don't see any KAC products being made or marketed to the standard gun store pogue who want the gun he saw in SG-1. I see this as being made and marketed to folks who know and use high end weaponry - professionally, competitively, or as a recreational shooter who appreciates a high quality product.
The general public won't buy an SR25 for $3K+ when DPMS has something for a little over a third of the price, or you can get an AR10 for half of an SR25. They are all .308 cal AR platforms, but folks who know and use weapons know quality and will spend the funds to get a better made and performing product. In full disclosure I have shot all three and have been an SR25 shooter since 1995.
You want a rail system? Why by a RIS or RAS when you can get tapco crap for a lot less? KAC kit isn't for the average joe - and I would be willing to bet that Mr. Knight and Trey do not want to see their hard-earned brand diluted in such a manner.
I say Kudos to KAC for trying to get innovative weapons into the civy hands who shoot and appreciate them. The PDW will be an excellent and welcome addition to the marketplace.
SCL
KevinB, As KAC is a company known for producing quality products, I feel that if your company were to release this product, it would be bought. However, many people will be stuck to conventional thought and will not be able to see or "visualize" the better option that you have offered. They will miss out. That being said, there will also be many of us who will be willing to buy your product even at it's proposed premium price. I know the price is high for me, but would still be glad and appreciative that the option were there for the civilian market and be willing to work towards owning the KAC PDW. This is a move that impressed me with FN and their PS90. The ability to own these forward-thinking and innovative PDWs. HK will most likely never even attempt marketing their PDW and yours is the best candidate of the three anyways. I'm impressed that you are even looking into public interest for this weapon. I hope that you do realease this product to the civilian market and can stick as "true" to the original weapon as possible.
manner.
I say Kudos to KAC for trying to get innovative weapons into the civy hands who shoot and appreciate them. The PDW will be an excellent and welcome addition to the marketplace.
SCL
Roger that!
John_Wayne777
01-26-09, 22:10
Most members of this forum don't have such a need.
Indeed. If I did the CQB/PSD thing for a living I'd have Kevin on speed dial about this thing. For those poor dudes stuck with P90's in their inventory this thing could be a god-send.
If they offered a stripped down version of it (simpler to machine 16" barrel, no sights) and could sell that for $2500, it would open up the market a tiny bit more...
Anything over the $2000 mark has it competing against SBR AR15's in existing collections for folks who can afford it.
Introducing it would be a very daunting task, and KAC is one of the few that could actually pull it off. With magazine and ammunition avilability, I'd be thrilled to pick up a used/abused one, but not enough of the population has the coin to make it a common model.
Not at all interested in tanking the concept here, but this has been the one nagging thought that I've had all along. A sub-10" 6.8 would seem to provide much the same utility without the ammunition availability concerns.
I'm a KAC proponent, but I do feel that the real potential for the PDW lies much more with official agency sales than with those of us who would have to settle for a non-select-fire, NFA-restricted cousin.
AC
The gun cannot be redone in a different caliber.
The round it uses now is now is shorter than all the others.
This line gets really old. A new gun/system comes out and all people do is complain its not 5.56/7.62x39/.308/9mm and want it adapted to those calibers.
The whole point of the PDW is it isn't 5.56/7.62x39/.308/9mm and offers something unique.
Scott.
At shot 2009 the KAC employee that i spoke with mentioned that there was a possibility of it being released in .556 so lets not say its not possible.
Whether its beneficial...i dont know.
As a civilian, 6mm rounds do nothing for me that .556 doesnt already do.
IF the price of 6mm were competetive i would happily adapt to it, especially if say a 6mm AR upper were released as well.
Most of the posters here have already outlined what needs to happen in order for this baby to catch on. Only time will tell.
Scott.
At shot 2009 the KAC employee that i spoke with mentioned that there was a possibility of it being released in .556 so lets not say its not possible.
The receivers and magazine would have to be stretched.
It was clear what I was saying.
The whole point of the PDW is it isn't 5.56/7.62x39/.308/9mm and offers something unique.
AMEN!! :D
What I don't get is people wanting it in these calibers- you can get SBRs in these popular calibers...however blast and muzzle flash are huge and their ballistic performance is greatly weakened going out of a short tube. If you want an SBR 7.62x39 then go buy a Krink. If its 5.56 get a 7.5" upper, or an HK53, etc.
PDWs must use different rounds to function out of a short barrel yet still give great ballistic performance - that is what makes it an effective PDW; "rifle-like" performance in a SMG sized package, without the gun being a flamethrower like a SBR .308, etc.
SCL
Army Chief
01-28-09, 00:17
The gun cannot be redone in a different caliber.
The round it uses now is now is shorter than all the others.
This line gets really old. A new gun/system comes out and all people do is complain its not 5.56/7.62x39/.308/9mm and want it adapted to those calibers.
The whole point of the PDW is it isn't 5.56/7.62x39/.308/9mm and offers something unique.
Scott,
I come in peace, brother, but I fail to see the correlation between the passage you quoted (an earlier post of mine) and your comments here. Is it not natural and expected that we should compare anything new to one or more recognized baselines? In this instance, I have no problem embracing the PDW for what it is, though it does raise a couple of legitimate questions: (1) what will the new round do that others will not, and (2) how much utility is a non-agency user likely to get from a weapon like this which uses proprietary -- and largely unavailable at present -- ammunition?
These are not criticisms or complaints by any stretch of the imagination, but rather real concerns which must be addressed before a $3,000 investment can even begin to make sense. I follow what you're saying, but it would seem that you've misread my intent. Uniqueness is potentially a very good thing, and I can readily appreciate the size advantage offered by the PDW; what I'm less sure about is how/why this makes sense in civil guise, and the purpose of my musings (and I suspect those of many others) is to try to find answers to these questions. Not a nay sayer by any means -- just looking for the larger logic here.
AC
Army Chief
01-28-09, 00:30
PDWs must use different rounds to function out of a short barrel yet still give great ballistic performance - that is what makes it an effective PDW; "rifle-like" performance in a SMG sized package, without the gun being a flamethrower like a SBR .308, etc.
This is the first truly succinct post I think I've seen in the entire thread that really addresses why the proprietary cartridge is a benefit, and not a potential liability. Well said, SCL!!
Yes, 6.8mm can provide good SBR ballistics, but yes, in doing so it becomes a typical hard-recoiling (in relative terms) flamethrower. So, we may be able to get an SBR in an AR or AK form factor that delivers nicely compact dimensions, but in any standard caliber, it would be a most impractical and unpleasant weapon to shoot when compared to the purpose-built PDW. That makes perfect sense. To this point, I think most of us have just been looking at what is possible with the systems we already have access to and trying to see where this new "KAC Light "offering stood to provide a decisive advantage.
I still hold that agency sales ought to be taking the lead here, given the weapon's considerable select-fire potential, but yes, I can see the civil applications as well.
AC
The reason people are asking for it in other calibers is so that they can actually shoot the damn thing with ammo that is readily available. While I know that there is a segment of safe-stuffers that don't care, and will buy one even with NO commercially available ammo, if you're a shooter and you're not conscious of the ammo availability (or lack there of) then you haven't thought this through.
Additionally, if the only advantage you see to the PDW is the ammo then you've missed the boat, and by a HUGE margin.
Personally, as stated previously, I have no use for the PDW as designed but do respect it's awesomeness! :D
No horse in this race, just a comment:
Worrying that an as-yet proprietary gun uses an as-yet proprietary cartridge seems a bit silly. If KAC decides to sell the gun to the masses, then obviously some company (or companies) will need to sell ammo to the masses. I can't pretend to be privy to the secret cabal meetings at KAC, but the folks I know who work there seem switched on enough to know that a gun needs ammo. :rolleyes:
As others have pointed out, if this gun could have achieved the same overall results by chambering 5.56 or 6.8, they would have built it that way and saved the expense & time of developing a new cartridge.
The PDW is a system. Either you have a need/want for the system or you do not.
rubberneck
01-28-09, 10:07
No horse in this race, just a comment:
Worrying that an as-yet proprietary gun uses an as-yet proprietary cartridge seems a bit silly. If KAC decides to sell the gun to the masses, then obviously some company (or companies) will need to sell ammo to the masses. I can't pretend to be privy to the secret cabal meetings at KAC, but the folks I know who work there seem switched on enough to know that a gun needs ammo. :rolleyes:
As others have pointed out, if this gun could have achieved the same overall results by chambering 5.56 or 6.8, they would have built it that way and saved the expense & time of developing a new cartridge.
The PDW is a system. Either you have a need/want for the system or you do not.
I too have no horse in this race as that gun will never be legal in my home state, but I'd like to point out that the 6.8 has been around much longer and several name manufacturers build rifles chambered for the round and yet no one sells a reasonably affordable practice ammo for it. If no one is willing to take the plunge with the 6.8 two years after it's release I doubt any manufacturer will make plinking ammo for 6X35. I am sure some companies will sell good stuff but it is going to be so frightfully expensive that most PDW's sold will be by default safe queens. I think that is the sentiment being expressed in this thread.
Personally I would have bought a 6.8 SPC chambered rifle along time ago but I want something I can shoot more not less than my LMT.
There's more to it than just "is the ammo available?"
If the 6mm ammo is $2/round, and 5.56 is still available at $.30/round, then there's an economy issue to contend with as well.
I understand that 5.56 isn't as effective, has more blast, has more recoil, etc. etc., but truthfully what we're talking about here is a commercial offering, and at that point (while having the "real" ammo would be best) those concerns are offset by cost.
Clearly, if we were all military purchasers with the need, ability and budget this discussion wouldn't be happening at all as we'd just order up our 10,000 rifles with ammo to boot and KAC would have an incentive to build the gun and make arrangements to produce the ammo.
Well said Rob.
I was under the impression that this topic was addressed towards the masses.
I may be wrong here since this board is more tailored towards those who actually use these weapons for more than recreation so someone please correct me if im wrong.
I would buy this rifle as much for the unique cartridge as the weapon itself.
If I want to buy a rifle for the purposes of self defense, or preparation for social unrest, etc., I would buy an standard issue AR in 5.56, or an AK in 7.62/5.45.
If the rifle was re-designed for 5.56, I already have a short barreled AR; I wouldn't want another 5.56 platform, with issues of uncommon parts and uncertian repairs, as well. I just don't want a 6.8 platform.
Availability of ammo is something I am concerned about, but the bottom line for me the appeal is as much the 6x35mm cartridge as the rifle. Realistically, I accept it is never going to be as inexpensive as 5.56, but as long as it is available at some not too outrageous price I would be happy.
Of course I have already staked my position as I can't afford $3,000 :)
WaltherP88
01-28-09, 13:04
I paid $3K for a pre-production Kriss Super V and I can and will pay $3K for a KAC PDW. However I have some serious suggestions/requests.
1. It is sold as a factory SBR.
2. Storm case, not the inferior Pelican.
3. Minimum 3 magazines.
4. Lifetime warranty to the original purchaser.
5. A reasonable amount of ammunition included. I am not asking for a case but it needs to be more than just one box.
6. Do not bastardize the design to make it commercially appealing. I do not want it chambered in another caliber. I do not want it to accept AR mags. I do not want a Sig 556. I want a KAC PDW in 6x35.
Scott,
and (2) how much utility is a non-agency user likely to get from a weapon like this which uses proprietary -- and largely unavailable at present -- ammunition?
AC
The same thing was said about 5.7 ammo 5 years ago. I can buy this at Cabelas now.
Additionally, if the only advantage you see to the PDW is the ammo then you've missed the boat, and by a HUGE margin.
You are taking me out of context.
I paid $3K for a pre-production Kriss Super V and I can and will pay $3K for a KAC PDW. However I have some serious suggestions/requests.
1. It is sold as a factory SBR.
2. Storm case, not the inferior Pelican.
3. Minimum 3 magazines.
4. Lifetime warranty to the original purchaser.
5. A reasonable amount of ammunition included. I am not asking for a case but it needs to be more than just one box.
6. Do not bastardize the design to make it commercially appealing. I do not want it chambered in another caliber. I do not want it to accept AR mags. I do not want a Sig 556. I want a KAC PDW in 6x35.
I don't think a storm case or included ammo is reasonable.
I prefer a regular cardboard firearm box. I don't need another case sitting around that I wont use. Don't make the same mistake Mircrotech did with their AUG.
Worrying that an as-yet proprietary gun uses an as-yet proprietary cartridge seems a bit silly. If KAC decides to sell the gun to the masses, then obviously some company (or companies) will need to sell ammo to the masses. I can't pretend to be privy to the secret cabal meetings at KAC, but the folks I know who work there seem switched on enough to know that a gun needs ammo. :rolleyes:
As others have pointed out, if this gun could have achieved the same overall results by chambering 5.56 or 6.8, they would have built it that way and saved the expense & time of developing a new cartridge.
This is my point.
After reading this thread.... I hope the PDW does well. IF it does and IF an ammo company steps up and convinces me that the round will be readily available then YES I would consider purchasing one.
Wait and see is what I'm getting at. YMMV
Dont worry if it comes out - we will ensure you have ammo, both training and 'operational' at a good price.
Dont worry if it comes out - we will ensure you have ammo, both training and 'operational' at a good price.
I see an excellent 50,000 round endurance test opportunity ... just sayin' ...
I'll mention that next meeting
-- remember the guy who you crank called Saturday evening of SHOT....
:D
I'll mention that next meeting
-- remember the guy who crank called you Saturday evening of SHOT....
In fairness to him, he didn't crank call me, he just sent me a few txt msgs. :cool:
If I came upon the money, I'd buy one. My financial situation currently limits me to only wishing I could buy one though.
Now if it were an upscaled version in 5.56 (or 6.8), I'd probably stretch and get one. In fact, I think it'd be more successful in all aspects chambered in 5.56.
The reason for the change to 6 is because how well it does as a SBR and suppressed over the 5.56
If they offered a stripped down version of it (simpler to machine 16" barrel, no sights) and could sell that for $2500, it would open up the market a tiny bit more...
Anything over the $2000 mark has it competing against SBR AR15's in existing collections for folks who can afford it.
Introducing it would be a very daunting task, and KAC is one of the few that could actually pull it off. With magazine and ammunition avilability, I'd be thrilled to pick up a used/abused one, but not enough of the population has the coin to make it a common model.
Making it with a 16 inch barrel takes away from it being a PDW don't you think?
Dont worry if it comes out - we will ensure you have ammo, both training and 'operational' at a good price.
If this is true then I think we can dispense with suggestions about producing it in a commonly available chambering... and start talking about offering factory SBR and pistol versions instead.
Jack_Stroker
01-29-09, 01:03
Looks like a great weapon and am sure it will be a great seller but at 3K I cant touch it.
That sums up my feelings on the matter. Love to have one but that price is too steep for any AR style weapon for me. Not saying it isn't worth it. It just isn't worth it to me right now.
I'd be interested in a pistol version (no buttstock) in 5.56mm NATO caliber , provided the price isn't too steep.
bigthunder223
01-29-09, 01:14
Grant,
I asked KAC about the possibility of selling these to LEO or civillians.They rudely told me never!They seem to have adopted H&K's customer service policies.I would still be interested,though.
You are taking me out of context.
Turnabouts fair play.
;)
This may come across as pure blasphemy, but what about rechambering in a short caliber?
5.7? .45ACP or 9mm/.40
A 5.7 version/conversion might assuage some with ammunition concerns - wouldn't be as effective as the 6x35mm catridge the weapon system was designed for, but would still be a PDW type round.
I personally would buy one in .45ACP - despite the accompanying loss in performance just because of availability of ammunition, combined with the compact, modular nature of the KAC weapon design - obviously, magazine dimensions would be problematic for some of these, which is something I haven't looked into.
The tough part is that it would really only shine as an SBR - as C. Reed Knight put it, if we wanted a or 14.5" or 16" barrel, just run a 5.56 format carbine. At 10" or 8", the PDW round shines - the question that remains abstract is if KAC and G&R could both turn a profit at a $3000 price point for those weapons, and if not, what modifications would be required to make them a) more attractive or b) more affordable
If you want a 5.7, buy the PS90. If you want a .45, buy the Kriss. If you want a 9mm/.40 type then there are numerous platforms for those. And for those that want a 5.56 there are plenty of options already out there. Now for those that want a better option consider the KAC PDW and it's more efficient, proprietary round. If your main concern is current available ammo, then stick with the 9mm and 5.56mm. If your main concern is performance, then there is a new option out there within our reach. I would rather a weapon come out as intended than to see it compromised. I believe the idea is that KAC's PDW will out-perform a weapon of the same length in the calibers mentioned above, most noteably, the 5.56.
Grant and Kevin,
How did I miss this thread? The KAC PDW is my white whale for some unexplainable reason, and has been since I saw the first blurry pic of it several years ago on TOS.
Definitely count me in if it can be had with a non NFA barrel. I fully appreciate that a SBR is the ideal configuration, but there are a significant number of populous states that don't allow SBRs out there (as well as AWB States that don't allow pistols configured this way either).
Seems to me if you're trying to make a more specialty/niche product as obtainable and affordable as is possible, having a non-NFA version would be a smart option, even if it's as simple as making an extended muzzle brake or shroud available, perhaps through a partner-vendor.
YMMV.
K
This may come across as pure blasphemy, but what about rechambering in a short caliber?
5.7? .45ACP or 9mm/.40
A 5.7 version/conversion might assuage some with ammunition concerns - wouldn't be as effective as the 6x35mm catridge the weapon system was designed for, but would still be a PDW type round.
I personally would buy one in .45ACP - despite the accompanying loss in performance just because of availability of ammunition, combined with the compact, modular nature of the KAC weapon design - obviously, magazine dimensions would be problematic for some of these, which is something I haven't looked into.
The PDW is gas operated.
Obviously the round was designed for a role.
5.7x28 or 4.6x30 have handgun crossover - there is no useful measure of making the PDW in these rounds, unless you want handgun crossover, and that was not the goal of this system.
I spoke with III on this issue yesterday. We want to make this, we just cannot afford to committ to something that does not have guaranteed sales, as it would be at the expense of another system that we already have orders for. Later this year as our production capability grows , or into 2010, as we wrap up other contracts, given enough interest there is potential.
Obviously the round was designed for a role.
5.7x28 or 4.6x30 have handgun crossover - there is no useful measure of making the PDW in these rounds, unless you want handgun crossover, and that was not the goal of this system.
I spoke with III on this issue yesterday. We want to make this, we just cannot afford to committ to something that does not have guaranteed sales, as it would be at the expense of another system that we already have orders for. Later this year as our production capability grows , or into 2010, as we wrap up other contracts, given enough interest there is potential.
KevinB,
What are the sales numbers to make this thing worth it? 1000 or 5000. I think you could find 1000 people out there to make this work.
How does the barrel attach? AR-like or is it more permanent? I am just wondering for those who have to have 16+ barrels.
I agree, the whole appeal of this is that the round was designed to outperform any other cartridge from a short (8" to 10"0 barrel. This really seems to pick up right about where the 5.56 becomes basically a high-speed ice pick. To get your most bang for the buck you need it in the original configuration. 9/40/45 are way, way behind in performance in comparison and the 5.56 starts to compete with a barrel twice as long.
I wonder if you could find some other platform to work the round with? If there are more guns out there the demand for ammo increases and you might get more folks producing it and therefore bringing the price down. Could you chamber it on Rem 700 action and maybe make an integral suppressed version? That could be a sweet little combo...
Spooky
Folks,
Look at the KAC PDW as a modern day M1/M2 carbine--ie. a light, nimble, easily carried, shoulder fired PDW that actually works well out to 100 yards and is still quite effective up to 300 or so, not some bastardized anemic, micro-caliber, handgun/SMG hybrid that does nothing particularly well.
Forget 5.56 mm or 6.8 mm in this platform. The other caliber one might consider chambering the KAC PDW in, especially for non-NFA 16" barrels, is .30 U.S. Carbine, perhaps utilizing the original USGI M1/M2 carbine magazines. The new .30 carbine loads using modern bullets like the Speer Gold Dot and the Barnes all copper are nothing to sneeze at from a terminal ballistics standpoint--ammo and magazine availability is a no brainer...
I spoke to DocGKR - he mentioned this round had some other applications. I also confirmed that currently KAC has the rights to this round, and it will not be sold commerically or openly until we release this system (mainly so competitors do not try to screw us with our own round in their systems)
I think that when the system launches publically - the upper will end up being the firearm. I will discuss with Trey and Dave what can be released about the bolt/barrel etc. Lets for the moment say that the barrel length can be altered farily quickly with simple tools.
Thanks for the info Doc and Kevin...
Doc - what are your thoughts on the new Gold Dot for the .30 Carbine?
Kevin - Do you guys have any timelines as to when the decision might be made on this?
Spooky
Have not shot it yet, but the ATK data Todd posted from SHOT is most impressive!
If you want a 5.7, buy the PS90. If you want a .45, buy the Kriss. If you want a 9mm/.40 type then there are numerous platforms for those. And for those that want a 5.56 there are plenty of options already out there. Now for those that want a better option consider the KAC PDW and it's more efficient, proprietary round. If your main concern is current available ammo, then stick with the 9mm and 5.56mm. If your main concern is performance, then there is a new option out there within our reach. I would rather a weapon come out as intended than to see it compromised. I believe the idea is that KAC's PDW will out-perform a weapon of the same length in the calibers mentioned above, most noteably, the 5.56.
Can I get another AMEN? Savior 6's comments are right on the mark. All the people responding "Uhhh I would take in 5.56 (or .45 or 9mm, or 6.8SPC. or whatever)" if it were $2000 are ignorant about this system and what it offers IMHO. No flames intended, but if you have $2000 and want a SBR 5.56 (or 9mm) then go cruise the gun boards and dealers and go buy one - they already exist in the marketplace. Talk to GAP/Noveske, or other smiths out there and see what they can do for you in 5.56 and 6.8. Buy a Colt 6450 and have someone SBR it for you, or buy an aftermarket upper if you want 9mm.
No one other than KAC can make this PDW system a reality for the public.
If you think you can get a complete gun for $1500 then you really don't know much about KAC...their suppressors retail in this ballpark and completed guns are in the $2K and above (sometimes waaay above) - this was before election day madness and panic buying. $3K for this system as pictured in the catalog (i.e. rail system and BUIS) is a fair value in the current marketplace.
My on epitch to KAC is let us know how many you need to sell to make this a reality sooner rather than later given the current political climate. By selling it as a factory SBR may avoid a future AWB, but given the current political climate who the Hell knows?
SCL
Id grab one if I could get an SBR here.
The more I look into it, it does seem more appealing. The problem is the cost, and at $3k before optics, the SBR taxes, extra magazines, and proprietary ammo it will never be within my reach as a responsible adult with obligations. My advice is to loose all the machine work on the barrel and do what you can to lower manufacturing costs if you hope to have any significant civilian sales. You might even be hard pressed to get LE or military sales given the number of manufacturers with similar systems that can easily underbid you. I know, I know.....the KAC PDW does what no other system can do.......but in the grand scheme of a fight exactly how much advantage is that over good training that could be financed with the money saved on using a cheaper system. In fact, price might be the only way to get this system anywhere given its proprietary cartridge in which KAC has all the rights to. Ammunition availability from multiple sources at competative prices is a major driving factor for the civilian, the professional, and the agency. Why not think about using the original PDW round.....the .30 caliber carbine?
If you think you can get a complete gun for $1500 then you really don't know much about KAC...their suppressors retail in this ballpark and completed guns are in the $2K and above (sometimes waaay above) - this was before election day madness and panic buying. $3K for this system as pictured in the catalog (i.e. rail system and BUIS) is a fair value in the current marketplace.
Absolutely considering what other modern systems are going for.
I might add...
15 or 20 years from now, all the people complaining about the $3K price tag will be wishing they could buy military rifles for $3K.
A 5.56mm/.223 version of the system might be the smarter play. A pistol version (no buttstock) with a choice of the two barrel lengths pictured at the beginning of this thread might be a decent option. You'd just need the right kind of single-point sling and go SAS style with it. A 16" carbine version with folding or folding/telescoping buttstock could be the other version.
Proprietary PDW cartridges are problematic for a number of reasons. In order for the 6x35mm to be successfull, there has to be either organic market demand for the cartridge or market demand that's actively and successfully generated, or both. KAC would most likely have to cut deals with all the major ammo manufacturers. They can't do what FN did with the 5.7x28mm. That was a marketing disaster for the P90 system in the U.S., even when dealing with LE end users.
A 5.56mm or 6.8 variant are possible - but not within the scale of the current PDW. If people need/want a piston setup in those calibers those are already available. If there is enough demand for an 'upscale' system it could be done.
I beleive the 6x35 round will stand on its own merits.
This KAC weapon system is a PDW, not an assault rifle.
6x35 mm is the best PDW/SMG cartridge we have ever seen and US .30 Cal Carbine is the most widely proliferated PDW cartridge ever made. Why try to shoe-horn an assault rifle cartridge like 5.56 mm or 6.8 mm into a PDW? If you want a SBR assault rifle like a 10.5" Mk18 or HK416, they already exist... The KAC PDW is really optimized for a different need.
river road 11
01-30-09, 17:55
Pistol version.
This KAC weapon system is a PDW, not an assault rifle.
6x35 mm is the best PDW/SMG cartridge we have ever seen and US .30 Cal Carbine is the most widely proliferated PDW cartridge ever made. Why try to shoe-horn an assault rifle cartridge like 5.56 mm or 6.8 mm into a PDW? If you want a SBR assault rifle like a 10.5" Mk18 or HK416, they already exist... The KAC PDW is really optimized for a different need.
Doc,
Are you saying that the .30 Carbine can be used in the 6x35 platform? If so, then I would definately be interested in this weapon. If you could change between the 6x35 and the .30 Cal with a simply conversion kit then it would really make me want one. However, lose the lousy M1 Carbine magazines and make a modern design.
Nathan_Bell
01-30-09, 20:51
Doc,
Are you saying that the .30 Carbine can be used in the 6x35 platform? If so, then I would definately be interested in this weapon. If you could change between the 6x35 and the .30 Cal with a simply conversion kit then it would really make me want one. However, lose the lousy M1 Carbine magazines and make a modern design.
Aye, that would be a very nice end round the cheap practice ammunition probelm.
This KAC weapon system is a PDW, not an assault rifle.
6x35 mm is the best PDW/SMG cartridge we have ever seen and US .30 Cal Carbine is the most widely proliferated PDW cartridge ever made. Why try to shoe-horn an assault rifle cartridge like 5.56 mm or 6.8 mm into a PDW? If you want a SBR assault rifle like a 10.5" Mk18 or HK416, they already exist... The KAC PDW is really optimized for a different need.
Can I get another AMEN??!! I don't see why people don't get the fact that a PDW is specifically designed to do a specific job - give rifle-like ballistics out to 200M or so in a SMG size package. Its really not that hard to understand or am I missing something with several folks going "Uhhhh make it in 5.56" when the manufacturer has already built an optimal system - and its 6x35??
KAC - please hook us up...bring this to market and then maybe some folks can get better educated on what a PDW does by actually shooting one. :)
Ixnay on the .30M1 chambering...if you want an M1 go buy one. We have already been told that training and operational ammo would be made available if/when this comes to the civy market.
SCL
SCL,
The option to shoot .30 Carbine out of a 6x35mm is a very appealing aspect. The reality is that based on KAC representative responses they intent to keep the 6x35mm cartridge from being widely released......thus, proprietary. This means that they want to keep it from being used in other weapon systems by other manufacturers, and they will likely keep its production restricted to a single manufacturer. So, the likelyhood of you having a good supply of ammunition for such a weapon system will be a fantasy unless you roll all your own. Only serious buyers can afford this weapon and they will be buying thousands of rounds at a time and the supply restrictions will keep even practice ammo very high in price. Unless KAC allows the market to chamber their own weapons in 6x35 and gives production rights to any ammo company that will make it, this weapon system will be a money pit for the customer.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nD51_GtGoQk&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFMwdcJSky0&feature=related
some PDW porn
John_Wayne777
01-30-09, 23:52
Let me ask a potentially silly question...do the dimple cuts in the barrel perform a function?
Actually, those are all good ideas... Offer the PDW as a factory SBR, offer a .30 Carbine PDW that took M1 Carbine mags for cheap shooting, and offer an AR15 upper chambered in 6x35 that took PDW mags...
Sorry, dreaming again. :p
-B
Let me ask a potentially silly question...do the dimple cuts in the barrel perform a function?
Cooling (greater surface area)
Weight reduction
Unlike fluting their is really no strength loss in the barrel.
SCL,
The option to shoot .30 Carbine out of a 6x35mm is a very appealing aspect. The reality is that based on KAC representative responses they intent to keep the 6x35mm cartridge from being widely released......thus, proprietary. This means that they want to keep it from being used in other weapon systems by other manufacturers, and they will likely keep its production restricted to a single manufacturer. So, the likelyhood of you having a good supply of ammunition for such a weapon system will be a fantasy unless you roll all your own. Only serious buyers can afford this weapon and they will be buying thousands of rounds at a time and the supply restrictions will keep even practice ammo very high in price. Unless KAC allows the market to chamber their own weapons in 6x35 and gives production rights to any ammo company that will make it, this weapon system will be a money pit for the customer.
I don't find .30 carbine appealing at all because KAC designed this system to be the best PDW offering available. Period. That means it needs to be in 6x35. If an existing caliber did the job then they probably would have gone with it. This PDW in any other caliber compromises what it does and is. KAC does not do things on the cheap - thank goodness. If you can afford the weapon then you should be able to afford the ammo.
Ammo cost will be determined by demand - if there is too little it will become an expensize, esoteric round which will be expensive - i.e. a .408 CT. I think KAC will not offer the PDW to civilians unless they get more demand than that since they have to recover start-up costs. KAC said they would work with ammo suppliers to make sure training and ops ammo is available. I believe them. We all heard similar arguments about FN and 5.7...its proprietary, esoteric, expensive, not a lot of guns chambered in it, etc. etc. Well, its now cheaper to purchase than most 5.56 ammo. Go figure. You can always load your own to keep the cost down.
Maybe I am in the minority here, but I don't put cheap ammo in any of my weapons. Why risk blowing up a $2K+ weapon with crappy ammo? This PDW is built to use the "muscle memory" you have developed on your AR/M4 platform, so real shooters won't need to burn tens of thousands of rounds to hone their skills with the PDW. If you are looking for a cheap way to do that then go buy a .22LR upper for your AR15.
The KAC PDW hits a homerun in the PDW market because its built on an "AR-ish" platform so I use the same muscle memory with it as I do my full size rifle, it isn't a flamethrower like a SBR version of my rifle, its made from a high quality manufacturer, and it comes (as pictured) ready to go right out of the box - rail system and BUIS. I can put my rifle accessories (i.e. flashlight, lasers, grips, whatever) on the PDW pica rail and swap optics around on the rails as well. No other PDW does all of this...which is why KAC needs to hook us up!
SCL
I'd buy one. Prefer a factory SBR; not any kind of form 1/pistol option. I think KAC would be smart to do a factory SBR and either a pistol or 16" (or both) for the guys that either want to form 1 it later or can't own an SBR in their state.
Stephen
SCL,
The .30 Carbine offers a larger, higher mass, expansion projectile which would be more ideal in FBI barrier tests. Speer recently designed a .30 Cal Gold Dot load which they claim excels against all standard FBI protocol barriers. The 5.56 does very poorly against windshields in virtually all formats......M193, M855, OTM,...etc. Most 5.56 OTM or JHP loads often shatter the bullet in addition to the windshield resulting in only tiny fragments impacting the subject using the windshields as a barrier. This is a common occurance in LE shootings from which I can name almost a dozen off the top of my head. Fragementation rounds require a fragile bullet construction which prevents them from being effective penetrators against many commonly encountered barriers. The only load that can do moderatly well against windshields is Federals Tactical bonded at almost $2 a shot. Speer's Gold Dot in .30 Caliber runs for about $.75 a shot and it makes a good overall police/CQC load. The Israelis love the .30 Carbine round as they deal with urban combat situations on practically a daily basis. Probably why they have been trying to adapt it to everything from the Micro Galil to the Magal. Clearly, there are advantages to using a larger mass projectile as a general combat load. This is why the 6.8 SPC is gaining traction with many of us since it is not only superior when using expansion rounds, but it has the sectional density and mass to punch through windshields in OTM fragging format. Then of course you have the Russians adaptation of the 5.45x39 into the 9x39 for a higher mass projectile. Their own PDWs work with the 9x19 penetrator, the 9x21 penetrator, or the newer 8x32 which looks like it might end up being their PDW round.
Here's a question for the KAC guys. How does the 6x35mm do in FBI protocol tests in FMJ, OTM, and bonded expansion loads? Savvy LE agencies take these protocols in high regard when making equipment selections.
Can you put the PDW in a fitted case with a half a dozen mags and a can for $4000? Let me know. For ammunition I'm thinking you could probably do .50 cents for blaster ammo and a little over a dollar for an OTM. Maybe get Barnes to do a 65 TTSX? What are the specs on the can? If it's as heavy as an NT4 in proportion to it's effect thats a problem.
You guys see how the PS90s have been selling...
Marcus,
IIRC, M1s have 18" barrels - how does the round perform out of an 8"-10" tube? Until 30 carbine is tested using identical barrel lengths as KAC PDW to whatever protocol you want its not an accurate comparison. Will .30 carbine penetrate body armor out of that short a barrel? I am more concerned far more than that than by windshield penetration results. Glass penetration is always a tricky situatioj with most guns/rounds (short of medium/heavy sniper rounds) and impact angle makes a big difference, as does velocity at impact, and barrier composition. No offense, but I really couldn't care about glass penetration performance of a single round when I have a 30 round magazine and a flat shooting, very low recoil weapon like the PDW. When it comes to glass shooting, the more rounds you can put on target the better as the barrier weakens significantly with additional bullet impact.
How much more blast/recoil does the M1 have out of a shorter barrel? The few folks who have shot in Ruger revolvers (with 7 1/2" bbl IIRC) say muzzle blast is pretty stout compared to an 18" M1 and MV are at the 1400FPS mark with 110gr bullets. So you basically have a round that is a little bit less than .357 magnum. Greater bullet mass bullet at equal velocity of a smaller mass bullet means more recoil and muzzle rise...which means greater split times between shots. I will take the 6x35 that is faster shooting and with greater effective range.
In additional to terminal ballistic performance, what is the trajectory of the M1 when shot out of an 8" barrel? Can I basically hold POA/POI out to 200 - 300 yards/meters? Velocity makes a difference here. 6X35 does 2400 FPS out of a 10" barrel, so it should be pretty flat out to 200M - which makes it easy for me - put sights on threat and pull the trigger without having to worry about holdover over 100M targets like I would with the .30 carbine.
The PDW in .30 carbine basically makes it a weapon that is marginally more effective than a SMG. You neuter the capabilities of the KAC system by having it in any other caliber 5.56, 9mm, .30 carbine, whatever. Not to flame here, but all of the folks responding here that they would "buy it in 5.56 or 6.8 or .30 carbine" just don't get what this system offers. This system in any other current caliber (i.e. 5.56, 9mm, etc.) will not perform as well as the PDW in 6x35.
If you want a "quasi-PDW but kinda more like a SMG" then buy an M1 carbine and SBR it. If you want a real deal PDW, then you need to get a platform expressly designed as a PDW shooting a PDW caliber - something that gives rifle like performance out to 300m, defeats body armor, flat trajectory, etc.
Just my .02. YMMV. :)
SCL
SCL makes a valid point. The more I think about it, the more I'm starting to wonder about the AR-upper idea; an SBR'd AR upper in 6x35 would basically compete with a KAC PDW directly and would almost positively be a less-expensive. Oh well. I'll stick with my original argument about doing what can be done to bring the cost down to the sub-$3k area where it can compete directly with high-end ARs (the ones that also tend to come with rails and other goodness).
-B
SCL makes a valid point. The more I think about it, the more I'm starting to wonder about the AR-upper idea; an SBR'd AR upper in 6x35 would basically compete with a KAC PDW directly and would almost positively be a less-expensive. Oh well. I'll stick with my original argument about doing what can be done to bring the cost down to the sub-$3k area where it can compete directly with high-end ARs (the ones that also tend to come with rails and other goodness).
-B
This will cause a magazine issue.
It will also get rid of the folding stock which is a negative.
This will cause a magazine issue.
It will also get rid of the folding stock which is a negative.
Agreed. The folding stock may be light and strong, but a collasping stock is much more versitile. Like I said, good concept provided that the cartridge offers better than subgun or other PDW terminal effects, and it is within reach of the competition pricewise. At $3k, I don't see it gaining a huge customer base. Get the price down closer to the $1.5k-$2k range and you'll be going places. I'll also fill out an order form for one around that price range and buy reloading dyes for the 6x35.
The KAC PDW is a brilliant design and execution. I'll buy one in a heartbeat as a SBR.
It definitely needs to be packaged with:
1. KAC E3 trigger guard
2. shorty KAC VFG
3. several mags
4. new KAC compact 300 meter rear BUIS
5. and maybe the new KAC T-1 mount
For 3K, I'm in.
Needs locking front and rear sights. The 300m is at best an 80% solution. KAC can do better.
BTW, the 80% part is Col. Lutz's words.
Agreed. The folding stock may be light and strong, but a collasping stock is much more versitile. Like I said, good concept provided that the cartridge offers better than subgun or other PDW terminal effects, and it is within reach of the competition pricewise. At $3k, I don't see it gaining a huge customer base. Get the price down closer to the $1.5k-$2k range and you'll be going places. I'll also fill out an order form for one around that price range and buy reloading dyes for the 6x35.
Having a folding or collapsing stock is not mutually exclusive.
welchtactical
01-31-09, 22:24
(not to switch lanes but) Hell right now I'd be happy to find a KAC gasblock-front sight, trigger guard, 300m rear. PM if any help. I like the idea of the PDW. I dont have a real need for it right now. Be a nice vehicle gun aside of it being a class 3 item. If I could have one in the gun truck or ASV with a rock-switch that be really :D but we all know how big green is :rolleyes:. I'd buy one in the 2500ish range, 6-8 mags in the 20-35$ range, throw a TD stubby and a T1 on it and be happy. Wouldn't replace my 5.56 LWRC with it though, just for special situations. I see the 2500ish range not too bad as I dropped close to that in my first LWRC. It'd be more useful than a PS90. A person could hunt with it if they wanted or had to. A sliding folder (magpul?) would be nice.
What about a pistol version that an aftermarket manufacturer had agreed to make a stock.
Yes, absolutely
There are ammo comparisons out there - I will see if anything open source can be published.
A 16`version - interest.
No. SBR/Pistol please.
My answers in red.
A version with a 16" barrel and optional fake can would be almost necessary. It would open sales to people who cannot or will not purchase NFA weapons, and subsidize the SBR version for everyone else. Look at the PS90--lots and lots of guys running them with a fake can versus true SBRs. Most buyers won't be uses, they will want something cool to hand to their friends at the range. Make use of that.
This will cause a magazine issue.
It will also get rid of the folding stock which is a negative.
Explain please?
-B
A version with a 16" barrel and optional fake can would be almost necessary. It would open sales to people who cannot or will not purchase NFA weapons, and subsidize the SBR version for everyone else. Look at the PS90--lots and lots of guys running them with a fake can versus true SBRs. Most buyers won't be uses, they will want something cool to hand to their friends at the range. Make use of that.
Nice point, but could it be offered in both a 16" and a SBR, so that those of us who want the class3 weapon, could have one from the get-go? I remember Kriss-TDI doing something like this, as well as taking pre-order deposits, giving your company cash on hand.
SperlingPE
02-03-09, 13:19
If $3K were the absolute top
& ammo and mags available
I would be interested
I hope this is not a tease....cause if you really did offer it....I would be in. Hell, I will pay up front.
Cheers, Jim
I'd buy one.
Actually, if it lives up to the hype, and is sustainable as a weapons system, with adequate availability of ammo, mags, spares, I would probably buy two, after selling 2 or more of my AR's
But only in the original caliber and only as a factory SBR. The only change I would like to see would be an adjustable-length folding stock.
You get one for me and I'll buy it. Let me know
just saw the weapons thing on military channel on this again :) and kinda makes me want one :)
not sure I can swing it though for a while sadly :(
maybe next year I can swing it and if they are available then I might be up for it as they are cool for sure nice and light and packs a punch
Some comparision pictures
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v193/EvilKev/Stuff051.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v193/EvilKev/Stuff037.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v193/EvilKev/Stuff053.jpg
AnchorArmament
02-09-09, 19:55
Kevin,
Can you give any specifics on the magazine? Is it metal or poly?
AnchorArmament
02-09-09, 20:03
Capacity, non-tilt follower, constant radius?
20 and 30rd mags, and I am bugging for a 40.
Anti-Tilt follower, fully curved mag.
AnchorArmament
02-09-09, 20:11
We have been looking at buying into KAC gear for over a year. The PDW would tip the scales in favor of going all in with KAC.
Service life of the weapons system? Maintenance requirements?
Very neat looking. It would be interesting.
Maintenaince is next to nil.
I add a little bit of TW25B grease to the bolt - thats it.
Then I pull the barrel thru when done shooting, just since I think its bad form to leave a dirty gun for another demo. Does it need it? Nope not for a very long time.
Service Life; 20-30k
Sounds good. Let us know if this thing takes off.
couch_potato
02-11-09, 21:50
There seem to be two, distinct camps in here: those who want the P.D.W.; and those who want a larger P.D.W., chambered for an existing, military-oriented cartridge.
Why not make both? From the couple of PMs I've exchanged with Trey, my understanding is that the P.D.W. is largely a refinement of K.A.C.'s S.C.A.R. technology--please correct me if I'm wrong. If K.A.C.'s S.C.A.R. submissions are a similar technology, and offer similar benefits, and offer increased modularity over the SR family, then why not produce both and shut everybody up?:D
Even though I'm civvy with absolutely no military or L.E. experience, I do
understand the purpose of the P.D.W. As a single guy who still has some disposable income, and who wants something even more compact than shorty ARs, I'm interested in the P.D.W. the way that it is. I don't even have a problem with the $3,000 price tag.
However, I'm also interested in something that offers AK durability, AR human engineering, that isn't butt-ugly, that has a folding buttstock. Frankly, I'm sick of bolt-on doodads and aftermarket upgrades. I just want one type of carbine that's ready to run, right out of the box, with a one-piece upper, a piston-driven operating system, and a bolt that will never experience a broken lug. Is that too much to ask from the industry? K.A.C. has the technology. If only they'd let it trickle down to the common man. :D
Trey,
I'm still waiting for something along the lines of an SR-47.
Any updates or a timeframe for a possible go/no go decision here? Again, I'm in for one (non-NFA).
K
No idea, and no idea if it will ever happen.
It is a market study idea, to be taken higher to try to gain permission for it.
I would love to have one with the 7.5" barrel. :D
BushmasterFanBoy
02-16-09, 21:00
I would love to have one with the 7.5" barrel. :D
Me too.
I would be interested in the caliber for which it was designed.
$3,000 isn't really that bad at all. When you think of how much money some of our carbines have soaked into them, it's not that much.
When will we know if these can be made available?
Here is an excellent video. This thing appears to be really tiny!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFMwdcJSky0&feature=related
I'm extremely interested in this weapons operating system. I can't find detailed info and pics. If someone does, please post!
All I know is that it uses dual pistons and an AK type of bolt, don't know how many lugs. I understand it has a fixed ejector. Don't know if it uses a cam pin or whether the cam lug is milled from the bolt.
Too many gaps in my understanding! I want info!:D
Certainly seems like a great platform for a short/compact platform with devastating firepower.
Couple of things I'd like to see:
1.) First, ballistics reports on your proprietary 6x35 cartridge. Muzzle velocity? How 'flat' does it shoot? How many inches of gel does it take to 'upset' the bullet?
2.) Possibly, just a suggestion, STANAG compatability--this would probably tip the scales for me to buy one--I see the lower's made similar to an AR configuration, for us non-deep pocket folks (well...semi non-deep pocket ;)), replacing a follower and springs is much more appetizing than trying to find more proprietary magazines.
3.) More marketing!! Every item Magpul puts out comes with great anticipation and fanfare. The KAC PDW design seems very well thought out. I like that it has come with a folding stock and weighs only 4lbs. Other platforms are either heavier and or require the use of a buffer tube. The KAC rep in the Milspec Monkey/Shotshow video talks about all of it's design quirks...yet, the first time I heard of the PDW was when I visited the KAC website.
Ooh, and I'd love to see a magazine article putting the PDW through its paces.
Just my .02.
I'd take one--sbr pls. I trust if KAC made this available there would be ammo and mags available---wouldn't make make much sense to release a product without supporting it---leave that to the germans...KAC and it's people seem smarter than that
I am in. Just let me know if it never happens.
I'm in for one if you could sell it as a AOW, (ban state here no SBR's or SBS's:(, but we can have suppressors, cant shoot them, but we can own them and we can have AOW's here in WA) Would it be sold as such if it were to be manufactered and sold?
Kev if the civi sale occurred, do you think any of these would make it up north?
No idea, and no idea if it will ever happen.
It is a market study idea, to be taken higher to try to gain permission for it.
To put it frankly, I don't give a shit how much it costs and I don't give a shit what the hell caliber it shoots, I WANT ONE!
Kev if the civi sale occurred, do you think any of these would make it up north?
Only for Mil/Gov -- unless we did a pistol, and that has been ruled out.
IF this gets released it would be an SBR
Only for Mil/Gov -- unless we did a pistol, and that has been ruled out.
IF this gets released it would be an SBR
That's what I like to hear. I whole heartedly agree with Scott, if I buy one, I want a factory SBR, I don't want to deal with other companies to get a stock and have to engrave it with my info.
i want my PDW. what do we need to make this happen?
Money lots and lots of money. I doubt that KAC will release this to the public, especially before the military can get their hands on it. I wouldn't be suprised if this weapon would have the same outcome as the "Blackbox" suppressor from AAC.
FromMyColdDeadHand
05-06-09, 17:55
Does that 6x35 have the same case head as a 9mm? Can't tell by the pics. $3K seems a bit high, but look how fast all those $3k MPL rifles sold, thats what, 125 rifles in under an aggregate day of sales time? I'd have to think that the 1000 mark could be hit.
I assume that if a suppressor was made, that a 6mm version would also work on a 5.56 rifle?
The reason I ask about the case head is that kev mentioned the barrel is fairly easy to replace, and would alow cheap practice and make me stop worrying about ammo in 10 years. I don't want to be like that guy at the range who has his buddy with a bucket chasing his 10mm brass as he shoots.
SperlingPE
05-12-09, 09:10
I am off the fence.
$3000 max - I am convinced if this ever comes about
First I would like a sales pitch with the cost of spare mags, what the ammo availability would be like and a few other details before I jump. I won't lie. When I had that thing in my hands I got some wood. It was pretty nifty and I would have loved to have shot it.
decodeddiesel
05-12-09, 09:48
First I would like a sales pitch with the cost of spare mags, what the ammo availability would be like and a few other details before I jump. I won't lie. When I had that thing in my hands I got some wood. It was pretty nifty and I would have loved to have shot it.
This is what it would boil down to for me as well. It would be fine and dandy to own one, but if ammo was $60 for a box of 20 or something obscene like that, or mags cost $100 a pop (lest we not forget it is made by Knight's and they are anything but cheap) there's no way.
Conversely though I think this thing is a winner, and if marketed properly could become the premier CQB/entry long arm for LEO/.mil.
EzGoingKev
05-12-09, 09:53
I would love to own one, but the biggest concern to me is availability.
Funds are about as available as the ammo that thing shoots right now.
I like that it doesn't shoot 5.56 as that would be a waste out of a barrel that short, but I just wish that trying to bring better caliber choices to market wasn't almost as impossible as it is.
FromMyColdDeadHand
05-12-09, 10:05
This is what it would boil down to for me as well. It would be fine and dandy to own one, but if ammo was $60 for a box of 20 or something obscene like that, or mags cost $100 a pop (lest we not forget it is made by Knight's and they are anything but cheap) there's no way.
Conversely though I think this thing is a winner, and if marketed properly could become the premier CQB/entry long arm for LEO/.mil.
Want to go half-sies on one?
This rifle made me read the Colorado CCW law, and it is for handguns only, no rifles or samuri swords. I was already measuring the 17.5 inches for a 8.5 barrel model with the stock folded to to see how it would hide under a jacket. Damn.
If the case head is the same size as a 9mm, that would be a sweet way to alieve some ammo worries, plus with subsonic ammo, would make a really sweet suppressed weapon.
decodeddiesel
05-12-09, 10:27
Want to go half-sies on one?
This rifle made me read the Colorado CCW law, and it is for handguns only, no rifles or samuri swords. I was already measuring the 17.5 inches for a 8.5 barrel model with the stock folded to to see how it would hide under a jacket. Damn.
If the case head is the same size as a 9mm, that would be a sweet way to alieve some ammo worries, plus with subsonic ammo, would make a really sweet suppressed weapon.
LOL, :p sure. Hopefully by the time my finances recover from the baby KAC will have released this thing.
A shame Colorado CCW laws are gay and we can't carry this beast around. :D
EzGoingKev
05-12-09, 12:40
Want to go half-sies on one?
I was already measuring the 17.5 inches for a 8.5 barrel model with the stock folded to to see how it would hide under a jacket.
From SMG Lee's Shot Show KAC pic thread. (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=25108)
http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/ss09/huge/DSCN1827.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/ss09/huge/DSCN1829.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/ss09/huge/DSCN1843.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/ss09/huge/DSCN1845.jpg
You can see from the pics it tucks up into a jacket nice. With the pics of a person holding it you can really see how big it is overall.
FromMyColdDeadHand
05-12-09, 12:45
From SMG Lee's Shot Show KAC pic thread. (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=25108)
http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/ss09/huge/DSCN1827.jpg
You can see from the pics it tucks up into a jacket nice. With the pics of a person holding it you can really see how big it is overall.
That would the the everloving F-ing HEAT!
Looks like a great weapon and am sure it will be a great seller but at 3K I cant touch it.
Same here.
FromMyColdDeadHand
05-12-09, 19:23
Why do I keep coming back to this thread, for a gun I have no use for and no money to buy :confused:
What's the pros and cons on a small rifle of a hinged stock versus a pull out one ala MP5?
EvilSpeculator556
05-12-09, 19:25
better ballistics over 9mm. I believe this round will go through IIIA.
FromMyColdDeadHand
05-12-09, 21:33
better ballistics over 9mm. I believe this round will go through IIIA.
Opps, just meant the stock, hinged versus slide out.
Smuckatelli
05-12-09, 23:17
I think that if someone here really wanted it, the price wouldn't stop them.
What concerns me is the proprietary nature of the weapon and ammo. We avoid awarding contracts like that now because you pretty much put all of your eggs in one basket. If something goes wrong or if you want to do a product improvement on the item, you are forced to go sole source. From the government perspective running these types of contracts opens you up to GAO type activites. Usually it's politically based.
From this board's perspective, had the M-16 design been proprietary of any one company, probably many of us wouldn't own one. There would be no incentive to drive the prices down from the manufacturer.
After shooting it last January, I'll take at least two for $3k/ea, assuming the ammo was available. I'm not sure what I'd do for magazines, but I think we could work something out...;)
I love this gun.
Admittedly my personal feelings would be to have Magpul do the lower in polymer to reduce weight, and have them do the stocks and mags.
As it stands unless someone comes up with an order for 1000 this is not going forward.
If a bunch of dealers want to combine and see if they can come up with 1000 GUARANTEED units purchased @ $3k each. I can take this to the boss.
Until then...
Smuckatelli
05-13-09, 09:15
I love this gun.
Admittedly my personal feelings would be to have Magpul do the lower in polymer to reduce weight, and have them do the stocks and mags.
As it stands unless someone comes up with an order for 1000 this is not going forward.
If a bunch of dealers want to combine and see if they can come up with 1000 GUARANTEED units purchased @ $3k each. I can take this to the boss.
Until then...
Have you tried the State Department?
decodeddiesel
05-13-09, 09:56
I love this gun.
Admittedly my personal feelings would be to have Magpul do the lower in polymer to reduce weight, and have them do the stocks and mags.
As it stands unless someone comes up with an order for 1000 this is not going forward.
If a bunch of dealers want to combine and see if they can come up with 1000 GUARANTEED units purchased @ $3k each. I can take this to the boss.
Until then...
What a shame. I know it is designed as a PDW, but this weapon has so much potential over a similar SBR 5.56 in a EB/CR role.
better ballistics over 9mm. I believe this round will go through IIIA.
Let's not forget it has better ballistics than a 5.56 of similar barrel length.
FromMyColdDeadHand
07-09-09, 00:57
Everytime I see this thread come back up, I think this might be on. Gotta think if it were offered as a pistol or 16 inch rifle to get them out the door, 1000 would be easy. Heck that is what a factory 556 SBR almost goes for that I think.
Ridge_Runner_5
07-09-09, 18:10
Still, price point is wayy too high and ammo is wayy to scarce. If it ran $1500-2000 and came in a more common caliber, I think it'd be a huge seller.
decodeddiesel
07-09-09, 18:17
Still, price point is wayy too high and ammo is wayy to scarce. If it ran $1500-2000 and came in a more common caliber, I think it'd be a huge seller.
This is what it breaks down to for me. If it was $2k and in 5.56 I would be all over it.
I still would like to see this happen.
I want an all aluminum receiver gun. Not half poly half metal.
EzGoingKev
07-09-09, 19:47
Still, price point is wayy too high and ammo is wayy to scarce. If it ran $1500-2000 and came in a more common caliber, I think it'd be a huge seller.
One of the biggest advantages to this is that it is not 5.56.
decodeddiesel
07-09-09, 19:58
One of the biggest advantages to this is that it is not 5.56.
Yes we are all fully aware of the advantages of the caliber, and I would agree that it is probably one of the most important developments with the platform.
...BUT....if you can't find ammo for it anywhere, or if it costs $2+ dollars a round then what difference does it really make?
FromMyColdDeadHand
07-09-09, 20:53
Groundhog Day!!!
Did Kev every say what the parent cartridge was for the 6x35 from? I read online in one place that it is a 5.56 cartridge, but 1cm shorter. If that is true, to allay ammo worries, since the 5.56 and 9mm share the same case head, would it be as simple as having a replacement barrel available in 9mm? Not super elegant, but a nice option, and real interesting suppressed weapon with an even shorter barrel and subsonic ammo. Sorry, KAC PDW SBR to KAC PDW Weapon System.
Sold as a pistol and without the stock and with the uber ( ;) ) comp as an option, I would think you'd be under the $2500 figure that more people are citing. I really think KAC fever would get the rest.
20round mags please.
I'm sure the KAC guys are busy enough, but since Barry is going to end all wars, they might have some free time on the milling machines soon.
Yes we are all fully aware of the advantages of the caliber, and I would agree that it is probably one of the most important developments with the platform.
...BUT....if you can't find ammo for it anywhere, or if it costs $2+ dollars a round then what difference does it really make?
I see this as a case of which comes first - the gun or the ammo? With no guns to shoot the ammo in why should a manufacturer set up to produce and sell it. This will never get better until there are a good number of guns out there and the demand for the ammo increases. Many people are hesitant to purchase the gun without affordable and available ammo. It is a vicious cycle really... I could see this being much like the .458 SOCOM ammo - it is out there and available but you really pay for it.
Many people are hesitant to purchase the gun without affordable and available ammo. It is a vicious cycle really...
Yep, especially when the firearm is $3K. Maybe the way to go at it is to adapt an existing design over to the caliber (i.e. an AR upper) and introduce a civilian version of the PDW alongside. It would be targeting two different parts of the market, those who have $3K for the real deal and those who don't but are open to trying the new round.
It's a risk, but if you can grab the people who have AR's and convince them to add another caliber to their collection, they may buy in enough numbers to get ammo production up and bring the per round production cost down. Then there will be people who would be more open to buying a civilian version of KAC PDW since the round would be more established and easier to get.
Right now it seems like too much of a gamble. Imagine someone who is not a reloader spending $3K on the platform and then finding out he is going to need to make his own ammo as long as he has the firearm. For some it won't be a big deal, but for others it will be a deal breaker.
if you can't find ammo for it anywhere, or if it costs $2+ dollars a round then what difference does it really make?
What difference does it make when the gun costs $3000 in the first place? The gun is not geared to amateurs and novices.
I'm gonna say it again....
...How about an M4 with the KAC PDW's operating system.
FromMyColdDeadHand
07-10-09, 00:21
I'm gonna say it again....
...How about an M4 with the KAC PDW's operating system.
ZM300
Robinson XCR
Sig P556 SBR'd
People the 5.56s are already out there. Stop it.
FromMyColdDeadHand
07-10-09, 01:01
People the 5.56s are already out there. Stop it.
Listen to the Savior! He knows the true path to Heaven! No false idols! 5.56 is the Golden Calf!
Yep, especially when the firearm is $3K. Maybe the way to go at it is to adapt an existing design over to the caliber (i.e. an AR upper) and introduce a civilian version of the PDW alongside. It would be targeting two different parts of the market, those who have $3K for the real deal and those who don't but are open to trying the new round.
It's a risk, but if you can grab the people who have AR's and convince them to add another caliber to their collection, they may buy in enough numbers to get ammo production up and bring the per round production cost down. Then there will be people who would be more open to buying a civilian version of KAC PDW since the round would be more established and easier to get.
Right now it seems like too much of a gamble. Imagine someone who is not a reloader spending $3K on the platform and then finding out he is going to need to make his own ammo as long as he has the firearm. For some it won't be a big deal, but for others it will be a deal breaker.
If the weapon and ammunition were available, I would no longer shoot 5.56. Just sayin'...I've got no use for it if I can have 6x35.
decodeddiesel
07-10-09, 08:42
What difference does it make when the gun costs $3000 in the first place? The gun is not geared to amateurs and novices.
Do you honestly think the skill level of the user has anything to do with the costs of the weapon, or the ammunition?
OK sure maybe it's not "geared to amateurs and novices" but how many regular people could maintain a reasonable training schedule of 5k rounds a year with the weapon if the ammo was $3 a shot?
The whole point of this thread is offering the PDW for civilian purchase...it is not a broad agency announcement for procurement of the weapon to government agencies.
Yep, especially when the firearm is $3K. Maybe the way to go at it is to adapt an existing design over to the caliber (i.e. an AR upper) and introduce a civilian version of the PDW alongside. It would be targeting two different parts of the market, those who have $3K for the real deal and those who don't but are open to trying the new round.
You know, I was thinking that as well. You could possibly introduce this as another specialty round - but it really is so suited for a small PDW type weapon I'm not sure you could, or would want to adapt it to another platform. Maybe an urban sniper rifle on the Rem 700 action - make it really short with an integrated suppressor...
Spooky
I still want two or three of these......when can you (ahem, paging KevB) make this a reality?
[QUOTE=FromMyColdDeadHand;407042]Groundhog Day!!!
"Did Kev every say what the parent cartridge was for the 6x35 from?"
It's based on the 221 Remington fireball as stated in the video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFMwdcJSky0&feature=related
221 Remington fireball brass can be had for 32$ - 39$ per 100. With the proper dies you should be able to neck them up and reform the brass. Even if factory ammo is not readily available you can roll your own.
If the PDW were available I would buy one asap.
FromMyColdDeadHand
08-20-09, 01:29
That is a cool video. I wonder if you could load the 107gr 6mm bullets to be subsonic.
It seems like things in general are slowing down, firearms wise. I hope we can see some movement on these soon.
decodeddiesel
08-20-09, 09:19
Yeah, that is a sweet video.
I would still love to own one of these...but I still fall back one the price and availability of the ammo and overall cost of the weapon.
If the KAC 6x35 can be formed that easily from .221 Fireball it would renew some interest. However I personally have no experience whats so ever forming custom brass and frankly I would not want my $3000 KAC investment to be the test guinea pig. :eek:
FromMyColdDeadHand
08-20-09, 11:09
It's out, it's out!!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WBRW_O38GM
Crap, its just airsoft. Do these guys need KAC approval to use their logos or is just so Asian market that you can't control it?
Kid has some nice presentation skills, tight video.
It's out, it's out!!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WBRW_O38GM
Crap, its just airsoft. Do these guys need KAC approval to use their logos or is just so Asian market that you can't control it?
Kid has some nice presentation skills, tight video.
Ha, that was kinda funny. I would think that would have to be licensed or its just asking for a lawsuit. Even if made oversees, once it got imported copyright/trademark stuff would have to be an issue without permission right???
I tell ya though, I've never seen much of or got into the whole airsoft thing but that video did make me want to buy one ;) Especially since the real deal is way out of my price range. The little airsoft tracers were cool but when the guy donned the hockey mask like he was auditioning for a part in Heat it was a little much.
If these were made to get one. So you can add me to the list.
j
I don't see any KAC products being made or marketed to the standard gun store pogue who want the gun he saw in SG-1. I see this as being made and marketed to folks who know and use high end weaponry - professionally, competitively, or as a recreational shooter who appreciates a high quality product.
The general public won't buy an SR25 for $3K+ when DPMS has something for a little over a third of the price, or you can get an AR10 for half of an SR25. They are all .308 cal AR platforms, but folks who know and use weapons know quality and will spend the funds to get a better made and performing product. In full disclosure I have shot all three and have been an SR25 shooter since 1995.
You want a rail system? Why by a RIS or RAS when you can get tapco crap for a lot less? KAC kit isn't for the average joe - and I would be willing to bet that Mr. Knight and Trey do not want to see their hard-earned brand diluted in such a manner.
I say Kudos to KAC for trying to get innovative weapons into the civy hands who shoot and appreciate them. The PDW will be an excellent and welcome addition to the marketplace.
SCL
Hmmm, another KAC reference.
Another KAC reference.
Keeping a tally?
-B
decodeddiesel
12-08-09, 21:49
Hmmm, another KAC reference.
You don't say. :rolleyes:
If the KAC PDW became available (in any configuration) I would purchase one. I would prefer a factory SBR. Please add me to the list.
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