Low pressure .38 [Archive] - M4Carbine.net Forums

bkb0000

01-24-09, 23:03

Macx

01-24-09, 23:05

Yes.

Muzzle Velocity:650 fps
Muzzle Energy:155 ft lbs.

Is what they advertise here:

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showpage?saleitemid=192658&utm_source=froogle&utm_medium=free&utm_campaign=10611

ToddG

01-24-09, 23:13

is there such a thing? i got my wife a smith airweight, and its just too much punch for her. forget the +Ps, and even the aluminum blazers through my steel framed 85 are too much. anybody make a light weight .38? does "low pressure" ammo even exist outside of subsonic .22? it's a great little revolver and she likes it, i dont want to have to switch to a different caliber, and .38 is already .07 less than i'd like her to be packing.

An Airweight might not be the best gun for her to learn on.

I won't even address the ".38 is already .07 less than I'd like" comment. :rolleyes:

As for practice ammo, you can probably find 148gr wadcutters just about anywhere. That's going to be very light recoiling but still won't be fun in an Airweight for someone who isn't an experienced shooter.

Gutshot John

01-24-09, 23:20

An Airweight might not be the best gun for her to learn on.

I won't even address the ".38 is already .07 less than I'd like" comment. :rolleyes:

As for practice ammo, you can probably find 148gr wadcutters just about anywhere. That's going to be very light recoiling but still won't be fun in an Airweight for someone who isn't an experienced shooter.

+1 are we sure it's the "punch" instead of the blast out of a short-barreled, light-weight revolver? Might be a bit heavier, but I bet she might find a steel frame an improvement.

FWIW having worked in EMS for many years as both paid and volunteer I remember an article in JEMS that said the .22LR kills more people in American Emergency Rooms than any other round. I'm not suggesting it as a carry caliber, but it isn't exactly worthless either.

skyugo

01-25-09, 03:30

FWIW having worked in EMS for many years as both paid and volunteer I remember an article in JEMS that said the .22LR kills more people in American Emergency Rooms than any other round. I'm not suggesting it as a carry caliber, but it isn't exactly worthless either.

true.. though in a self defense scenario a bad guy dead in the emergency room might not be soon enough. :eek:

Gutshot John

01-25-09, 07:36

true.. though in a self defense scenario a bad guy dead in the emergency room might not be soon enough. :eek:

I completely agree.

MX5

01-25-09, 10:12

148 gr. hollowbase wadcutter.

RyanB

01-29-09, 22:02

If .38 in J is too much, get her a K. Seriously.

chadbag

01-29-09, 22:16

...I remember an article in JEMS that said the .22LR kills more people in American Emergency Rooms than any other round.

You sure about this? I have not read recently of any shootings in American ERs at all let alone with 22s

;)

Chad

SeriousStudent

01-29-09, 23:07

Federal is reintroducing the .38 Special Nyclad load. Might it be a possiblity?

http://www.federalpremium.com/products/details/handgun.aspx?id=828

It's not going to vaporize anything. But that very soft lead does seem to expand fairly well.

Does LtCmdr Roberts have any data on these?

And I will definitely agree with the others. My 642 is probably the firearm that is the most difficult to shoot well. And because is is easy to carry, I carry it the most. But it's a serious trade-off. I load it with the +P Short Barrel Gold Dots.

Forty Five Auto

01-30-09, 00:59

Not to be piling on here, but take the suggestions of starting her on a .22 LR seriously.

Assuming, of course that your wifey is a newer shooter, think about how many rounds you put downrange before shooting was natural to you... A .22 will be a cheap way for her get the hundreds of rounds of experience that is necessary to develop handling and marksmanship skills, and she won't be distracted by the "punch" of .38 target rounds.

I love my SW 340PD, but I don't even ask my better half to try it out.... yet.

bkb0000

01-30-09, 01:49

she wanted the airweight .38.. liked the way it looked. and, as we all know, our little angels get what they want.

whats the word on the walther p22? seems like a great little training gun

Forty Five Auto

01-30-09, 05:26

Ha ha, no need to explain further why she got the revolver!

One of my partners just snagged one of those Walthers. I haven't shot it, but he really likes it and I was impressed when I messed around with it the other night. It's very slight and ergonomic, so I bet you could hook your wife on it... Just make sure to use hotter .22 ammo for reliability reasons.

dewatters

01-30-09, 09:53

3D Ammunition used to have a 110gr Wadcutter load. It was a real powder puff even from lightweight revolvers.

markm

01-30-09, 10:03

Trying to back off of .38 spl is silly. It's already a lousy round for penetration as it is.

Revolvers just "feel" sharper in the recoil departement compared to autos. Maybe a different gun is a better solution.

Pk14

01-30-09, 11:41

There are several options to improve the pointability and recoil absorbing that changing the grip can provide. I switched out the original grips that came with my SP-101 to Hogues and they made a huge difference in controllabilty / follow-up shots with heavier recoiling rounds. What about the overmold CT grips?

Good luck,
Pk

Alpha Sierra

01-30-09, 16:40

Trying to back off of .38 spl is silly. It's already a lousy round for penetration as it is.
158 grain +P loads are time tested on the street and recent gel tests I have seem have them penetrating from 13 to over 16 inches. Lots of BG have assumed room temp due to them.

woodandsteel

01-31-09, 11:04

she wanted the airweight .38.. liked the way it looked. and, as we all know, our little angels get what they want.

whats the word on the walther p22? seems like a great little training gun

Is she absolutely beholden to the Airweight? I have an all steel model 36. Even though it is a J frame, I enjoy shooting that little gun.

I don't fire +P's out of it. That's just my preference. But, when I shoot standard pressure rounds through it, I find the gun to be quite manageable and enjoyable to shoot.

Just my opinion on the matter.

bkb0000

01-31-09, 15:31

Is she absolutely beholden to the Airweight? I have an all steel model 36. Even though it is a J frame, I enjoy shooting that little gun.

I don't fire +P's out of it. That's just my preference. But, when I shoot standard pressure rounds through it, I find the gun to be quite manageable and enjoyable to shoot.

Just my opinion on the matter.

its the same problem with my steel framed 85. she says its at risk of rotating out of her little fingers every time she squeezes the trig. its not- her two hand grip is good, but its still not any fun for her to shoot, which means we get 10-15 rounds through it before she quits. and the other 485 rounds just laugh in my face.

the j-frame is the problem- she needs her hand up closer to the bore

ToddG

01-31-09, 15:33

Get her a larger revolver, preferably in .22, and let her learn on that.

Expecting any shooter to fire 500 rounds from a j-frame in one session is overly optimistic and/or sadistic.

HolyRoller

02-02-09, 20:56

What grips do you have on her Airweight? I had the non-backstrap-covering grooved grips on my old 442, and it was so painful I couldn't stand to shoot that thing more than about once every three months. Hogue Monogrips on my 637 changed a world of hurt into something tolerable, even fun.

Before getting into the ten millionth caliber/bullet/stopping power debate this week, all I can say is, there's lots of good information around and I'll leave you to it, since that's how I decided what to carry. I would suggest that time is waaaay better spent in learning to draw your weapon, hit targets, reload smoothly, reholster safely, etc. than in trying to determine what equipment is The Best.

tpd223

02-03-09, 02:36

I had a chance to burn up a large quantity of free Winchester .38 Super Match wadcutter, so I taught a revolver tactics class for our officers who carry J frame BUGs.

Even though the J frame is normally quite abusive to most shooters, everyone in this class was very happy and uninjured even though we had burned 400 rounds per shooter.

Several of our folks started using that same load for carry purposes as they were very confident in their ability to make hits with it.

The Pachmayr Decelerator grips make a huge difference in recoil cushioning, very good to have for someone just learning how to shoot.

bkb0000

02-03-09, 03:19

i've just got the stock hard rubber grips on it. changing grips on a handgun never occurs to me for some reason- i'll give that a try.

ZDL

02-03-09, 03:59

+1 are we sure it's the "punch" instead of the blast out of a short-barreled, light-weight revolver? Might be a bit heavier, but I bet she might find a steel frame an improvement.

FWIW having worked in EMS for many years as both paid and volunteer I remember an article in JEMS that said the .22LR kills more people in American Emergency Rooms than any other round. I'm not suggesting it as a carry caliber, but it isn't exactly worthless either.

Remind me to stay out of American Emergency Rooms lest I die of a stray .22 round.... :p

I have heard the same statistic and it is probably true however, I think by itself it is misleading. The statistic is probably weighted heavily by the .22 being both economical ($) and available. I'd like to see the shot/death %. That would be more telling.

If the basketball player shoots 200 times and makes 70 baskets, 20 more than anyone else, it doesn't mean he's efficient. Just an observation.

bkb0000

02-03-09, 04:14

Remind me to stay out of American Emergency Rooms lest I die of a stray .22 round.... :p

I have heard the same statistic and it is probably true however, I think by itself it is misleading. The statistic is probably weighted heavily by the .22 being both economical ($) and available. I'd like to see the shot/death %. That would be more telling.

If the basketball player shoots 200 times and makes 70 baskets, 20 more than anyone else, it doesn't mean he's efficient. Just an observation.

i've heard the same... statistic, i guess you'd call it. always struck me as the kind of thing a dealer pulls out of his butt to get you to buy at least SOMETHING, even if it's just a gay little .22

a dealer got my mother to buy a beretta bobcat with that line, once. its the smallest gun i've ever shot, yet it's the biggest piece of shit i've ever shot. ironic, i know.

tpd223

02-03-09, 05:18

I'm throwing the BS flag on that play. Where would said statistic come from?

.22s wound alot of people, I rarely see them die, or even become incapacitated.

The wounding potential for all of the small caliber rounds is low, even if you place good hits on the bad guy the likelihood the round will deflect is high.

The other issue of .22s for self defense is they have more stoppages and fails to fire due to priming issues.

.22s are for training and hunting small animals.

Alpha Sierra

02-03-09, 17:57

i've just got the stock hard rubber grips on it. changing grips on a handgun never occurs to me for some reason- i'll give that a try.
Revolver grips are caveman simple to change.

I do it to all my wheelguns that see practical use and the difference between an ill-fitting set of grips and one that fits my hand is hard to describe.

A lot of people swoon over the adjustability of the M&P's three backstraps. That's nothing compared to the level of customized fit you can get with THE original S&W Military & Police .38 Hand Ejector.

Fail-Safe

02-03-09, 22:15

But yeah... if you're going to opt for that caliber, you'd better get every bit of +Pee to try and make it lethal.

+P isnt necesary for .38spec to achieve adequte penetration.

The 148gr TMWC does a fine job at penetration, getting as high as 20 inches. No, it wont open up, but it will do a good job at cutting tissue as opposed to stretching it.

Jim Cirillo's SafeStop was a great choice but I am fairly certain it isnt made anymore.

If I'm not mistaken, Dr Roberts carries his J stoked with these and 135gr Speer GDHPs as reloads.

Race

02-03-09, 22:22

Maybe more people make it to the emergency room when shot with a .22. Maybe more people shot with larger calibers don't make it to the ER. I would also suspect more people shot with larger calibers tend to be shot more times and by a higher percentage of proficient shooters.

Put another way, I've never met a cop/SWAT/DEA, etc., carrying a .22 on the job. I would expect more of their OIS recipients to bypass the emergency room, than those shot with cheap .22s by the shaky hands of criminals/gangs/etc.

tpd223

02-04-09, 01:54

In my experience most shot people do make it to the ER, and the vast majority of the time they, and the docs, have no idea what they have been shot with.

FWIW, the shootings I have seen with .22 RIFLES have resulted in a fair amount of DRTs. A bit different ballistics, and ability of folks to get solid hits though.

firecop019

02-11-09, 18:46

You may want to try Federal's Personal Defense line. They have a standard pressure 110 gr hydra shock. Which is a lighter recoiling than most others. As soon as I shoot through this batch of Gold Dot's, I'll be switching to either that or the nyclad for my backup/off-duty gun.

Race

02-11-09, 19:31

NCPatrolAR

02-11-09, 20:49

firecop,

Is the Nyclad being produced again?

Yes. It is making a return to the market last time I checked

tpd223

02-12-09, 12:16

Although the Nyclad and 110gr Hydrashock are low recoil, I'm not impressed with either load.

Both have a tendency to fail to expand, but when they do expand they exhibit insufficient penetration.

This would be why Doc Roberts recommends wadcutters, which both cuts a decent hole and penetrates well.

IMHO, if you can't shoot the 135gr Gold Dot or the DPX well, then wadcutters are the best choice.

dcmdon

02-14-09, 21:41

Your wife is now carrying what is probably the most difficult to master self defense handgun she could have picked.

Its time to push back. I never understood why "ladys guns" are small and lightweight with short barrels. That just amplifies the recoil of any given cartridge.

First, although you didnt get into the specifics of the gun, get her a soft rubber grip that allows her to use her pinkee to grasp the gun. Most J frame grips only allow 2 fingers. Get a longer grip that allows her to use her whole hand.
Second, consider magna-porting the gun

If you insist on keeping this gun, standard target wadcutter loads have proven to be effective given the reduced power.

re the whole .22 argument. I'm no expert, but there is a difference between rapid incapacitation and killing. I've no doubt a .22 can kill even large, angry animals of the 2 and 4 legged kind. I do doubt that it will take the fight out of them rapidly with anything other than a shot to the brain or spine.

Don

ToddG

02-15-09, 08:19

re the whole .22 argument. I'm no expert, but there is a difference between rapid incapacitation and killing. I've no doubt a .22 can kill even large, angry animals of the 2 and 4 legged kind. I do doubt that it will take the fight out of them rapidly with anything other than a shot to the brain or spine.

A .22 is a great way for someone who is recoil sensitive to learn how to shoot. Once a shooter understands sight alignment and trigger manipulation, heavier recoiling guns can be introduced. The shooter needs less brain power to focus on sights & trigger, so can put more effort into recoil management.