View Full Version : Interesting shooting
Here is a good one folks! This guy (Tice) (http://www.ohio.com/news/37986589.html) kills his wife and is hold up in the basement with their son (hostage). He has a weapon with him. SWAT enters the house and is able to spy on him while he is in the basement. They see that he sometimes sets the rifle (a .22) down and walks away from it. As soon as he put the gun down, SWAT comes into the basement. The first guy in the stack is running an AR15. The second guy is running an MP5SD.
Tice sees them coming and heads towards his weapon. The first officer in the stack drops the hammer on his AR and gets a CLICK! The second guy fires at least on round from his MP5SD and hits the guy square in the forehead (see pic of this in the link above) and disintegrates! The guy is STILL on his feet at this point with nothing more than a a headache.
It is my understanding that this all took place in under 10ft and there was a round in the chamber of the first officers AR. The primer was crushed and did not go bang. The round used was from Federal. I do not know what brand of 9mm was used (yet).
Lot's of lessons learned here I think.
C4
Jay Cunningham
01-25-09, 16:43
1. Nice shot placement from the officer with the MP5.
2. That guy looks like Mr Hyde from The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen.
3. If the guy is worth shooting once he is probably worth shooting several times.
zippygaloo
01-25-09, 16:48
Man I always thought the "a (insert cartridge name here) is not enough to stop a man" was a little BS, but after seeing that guy and knowing he got hit square in the forehead by a 9mm round tells me I have a lot to learn. Meaning you would think the guy would be six feet under, but he isn't.
Jay Cunningham
01-25-09, 16:49
The guy looks like the precursor to Cro-Magnon Man, so consider the thickness of his skull vs. the 9mm round...
The guy looks like the precursor to Cro-Magnon Man, so consider the thickness of his skull vs. the 9mm round...
lol. Agree.
I'm taking the lesson of "have a backup plan". How many failures in one story here?
bean bags
federal
ar
9mm
hk.....
Geesh. Shit happens sometimes.
Gutshot John
01-25-09, 16:52
Man I always thought the "a (insert cartridge name here) is not enough to stop a man" was a little BS, but after seeing that guy and knowing he got hit square in the forehead by a 9mm round tells me I have a lot to learn.
Unfortunately there is no such thing as a death ray.
They probably only fired once since he dropped and there was probably a ton of blood.
Bullets, even big powerful ones, are always subject to variables beyond our control...like some people have really HARD heads. :eek:
http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=woman+shot+in+head+by+terrorists+survives&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8
citizensoldier16
01-25-09, 17:03
Interesting note...the last paragraph of the article refers to an "MP5 assault rifle" Apparently their editor is anti-gun, or just too ignorant to know the difference.
From the article:
SWAT members worked their way inside the home and shot Tice with an MP5 assault rifle after failing to subdue the 6-foot-1, 280-pound man with nonlethal bean bags fired from a gun.
Note to self: Do not shoot Cro-Magnon Man with a Non-Lethal as it will just piss him off so that when you shoot him in the head he will not feel it!!!
and
Family members say Tice was angered over his wife's affair with a family member and her demand for a divorce. He is accused of shooting his wife in the living room, taking his son and holding police at bay for eight hours.
Damn Hillbillies moving north?
Buckaroo (who has Moonshiners in his family tree! :D
Whatever happened to shooting center of mass? Curious as to why more shots weren't fired? Was the threat stopped at that point?
MisterWilson
01-25-09, 17:12
Whatever happened to shooting center of mass? Curious as to why more shots weren't fired? Was the threat stopped at that point?
I wonder if he had a "lights out" concussion after getting tagged in the forehead.
1. Nice shot placement from the officer with the MP5.
2. That guy looks like Mr Hyde from The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen.
3. If the guy is worth shooting once he is probably worth shooting several times.
1. Yes
2. Yes
3. For certain (dead men tell no tales)
C4
The guy looks like the precursor to Cro-Magnon Man, so consider the thickness of his skull vs. the 9mm round...
It is my understanding that his skull is just a little thicker than normal.
C4
Whatever happened to shooting center of mass? Curious as to why more shots weren't fired? Was the threat stopped at that point?
Good question. Maybe the child was in front of him or there was a half wall or something in between in and the officer.
C4
Whatever happened to shooting center of mass? Curious as to why more shots weren't fired? Was the threat stopped at that point?
Who knows, he very possibly could have had the child in his arms (speculation) . Id say (more speculation) that they still achieved incapacitaion even though it didnt peirce his cave man like skill.
Apparently their editor is anti-gun, or just too ignorant to know the difference.
Both!
-DM-
Since he was apprehended, one might assume that the shot to his head did in fact incapacitate him at least temporarily. This would then explain why only one shot was fired (or at least, why only one hit was landed).
I bet the #1 guy was enjoying the Reader's Digest version of his childhood being played on the inside of his eyelids after he heard that click.
As GSJ said, it's not uncommon for head shots (from any pistol caliber) to fail to penetrate the skull. The skull is thick, hard, curved, and covered with soft tissue. That's why we train to hit the ocular window and not just "the head."
shadowalker
01-25-09, 17:55
Perhaps he also had the opportunity for a head shot and realized a 9mm was more likely to be effective with a head shot on someone that size that was going for a weapon and against whom other action had already failed.
A normal sized man recently soaked up over 20 9mm hits from MP5s (plenty to COM) and lived, he tried suing the police department for his medical care.
This past fall, a large SWAT team here had a failure to fire from an M4 with Hornady TAP ammo during an entry--fortunately no officers were hurt and the suspect immediately threw down his weapon when the carbine went click instead of bang. After the incident was concluded, the team went to the range and expended the rest of their carbine ammo and had one additional failure to fire. This same team had 3 Hornady TAP rounds fail to fire in training a couple of years ago. Last year, when Pat Rogers was teaching a class at a nearby agency, there were 5 failures to fire using Hornady TAP ammo. In all 10 cases, there appeared to be good primer strikes, but no rounds fired. On analysis, the ammunition had powder and checked out otherwise.
http://www.tridentconcepts.com/alumni/Portals/0/NTForums_Attach/1111782440871.JPG
However, two problems were discovered. First, some of the primer strikes had insufficient firing pin indentations. The round from the potential OIS incident had a primer strike of only .013"—the minimum firing pin indent for ignition is .017". In addition, the primers on the other rounds were discovered to have been damaged from repeated chambering. When the same cartridge is repeatedly chambered in the AR15, the floating firing pin lightly taps the primer; with repeated taps, the primer compound gets crushed, resulting in inadequate ignition characteristics--despite what appears to be a normal firing pin impression. Once a round has been chambered, DO NOT RE-CHAMBER IT for duty use. Do NOT re-chamber it again, except for training. This is CRITICAL!!!
--------------------
http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/postimages/77990-DanielTice9mmMP5tohead.jpg
Regarding the 9 mm hit—the point of aim is a bit too high and looks like it may be on a curved portion of the skull. You actually want to target the eye-sockets, especially with a handgun round to avoid projectile deflection from the skull (this happens more frequently than people expect).
Don't bring pistol caliber weapons to the fight if you have the option of using a rifle...
thopkins22
01-25-09, 18:55
This reminds me of a story here in Texas where a criminal was shot in the forehead with a pistol and the round lodged between the skull and skin. It didn't knock him out, in fact he ran off. He appeared at a hospital several days later to have it removed. Apparently the hospital called the police at which point he refused to let them take it out...I'm guessing on the assumption that it would match the gun of the man who shot him in self defense and link him to the crime.
I don't remember the outcome...I know there were issues regarding getting a warrant to perform surgery on an unwilling man. That and the fact that he took one to the face and was able to run away.
This reminds me of a story here in Texas where a criminal was shot in the forehead with a pistol and the round lodged between the skull and skin. It didn't knock him out, in fact he ran off. He appeared at a hospital several days later to have it removed. Apparently the hospital called the police at which point he refused to let them take it out...I'm guessing on the assumption that it would match the gun of the man who shot him in self defense and link him to the crime.
I don't remember the outcome...I know there were issues regarding getting a warrant to perform surgery on an unwilling man. That and the fact that he took one to the face and was able to run away.
i wonder how much dope you need to do to be OK with having a bullet lodged in your face. i'm sure half his face was flaming red and full of puss by the time he decided to go to the ER
A few have mentioned that hostage taker was shot in the forehead and it is a curved surface. Unless the SWAT member with the MP5 was taller than 6'6 he would be shooting at an upward angle at a curved surface. Although that is assuming both were standing straight up, not too sure how likely that would be in real life.
The fact that the bullet fragmented and was deflected without penetrating the skull is not too unremarkable. I'm not too sure if I would call this guy lucky to survive a headshot or not because he now has to stand on trial for the murder and hostage taking.
~Alex
Gutshot John
01-25-09, 19:32
i wonder how much dope you need to do to be OK with having a bullet lodged in your face. i'm sure half his face was flaming red and full of puss by the time he decided to go to the ER
You'd be surprised what walks into the ER on any given day. 15 years in EMS and I'm continuously amazed.
One of my personal favorites was the guy who shot himself while holstering a cocked .22 mag pistol without a trigger guard. One bullet five holes.
Then there's the guy...
One thing I would like to point out as a possible cause of the 9mm failure with the MP5SD is this. I've worked with three different Officers from three different agencies that have been issued HK MP5SD's.
Each and every one of them was running 147 gr. subsonic ammunition in the guns until I explained to them how the suppressor system on the HK works and to maintain standard ammunition in it. It all boils down to the agencies purchased the guns and issued them out with zero detailed training on them other than firing qualifications. The Officers and agencies all had heard to use subsonic ammunition with suppressors and just ran with it.
It may be possible that this is what occured with this shooting. Subsonic ammunition utilized with then more velocity bled off.
But that's all just a guess.
HAMMERDROP
01-25-09, 19:49
But perhap the firing pin channel had some carbon build up and the firing pin wasn't floating properly. I have had a few first round failures to fire, quite embarrassing, of course I wasn't door kickin' for an Orca. They should have harpooned him ...
Center of mass where would it start on such a behemoth ?
When I reassembled the bcg after cleaning I noticed once firing channel was cleaned and oiled the firing pin floated freely to the stop. And have never heard silence from 'a first round' again. Its one of the areas I pay attention to and oil regularly.
Michael
I just hope they get the chair or needle ready for this sick bastard.
It would be nice to have it on tv. I'd sure pop a bag of popcorn and have a toast for the families loss in a moment of silence.
It's amazing how these SOB's are able to get so lucky and justice possibly being delayed. :mad:
I just hope they get the chair or needle ready for this sick bastard.
It would be nice to have it on tv. I'd sure pop a bag of popcorn and have a toast for the families loss in a moment of silence.
It's amazing how these SOB's are able to get so lucky and justice possibly being delayed. :mad:
he shot his whore of a cheating wife.. it's not like he's the virginia tech shooter.
thopkins22
01-25-09, 21:03
he shot his whore of a cheating wife.. it's not like he's the virginia tech shooter.
But then he took his young son hostage. Sympathy points get recalled at that point.
And in response to your other post...I'm guessing it took that guy A LOT of dope to both deal with a bullet in the head for days, never mind not being knocked out cold from the impact.
What was the brand and weight of the 9mm used?
randyman_ar
01-25-09, 21:29
Okay from the pic posted, the guy looks like a mouth breathing trog-la-dite. Thick skull small brain cavity. My wife works the ER (RN 26 yrs) at an inner city hosp. She has seen numerous 'walk ins' 6+ in the last year (under their own power) that had numerous hits with 9mm. The latest had one the the arm, two leg, two stomach, two chest, drove himself to the er, alert till surgery. I know shot placement is critical but the wife would just as soon carry "a big ****ing rock than a 9mm" her words not mine. She simply doesn't trust its stopping power.
FWIW she carries a Kimber CDP Ultra .45
...Once a round has been chambered, DO NOT RE-CHAMBER IT for duty use. Do NOT re-chamber it again, except for training. This is CRITICAL!!!...
Agreed.
Instead of re-chambering rounds, we put those rounds towards our firearms training days/qualification shoots.
FromMyColdDeadHand
01-26-09, 02:02
1. I think I've found a new avatar picture. Need to crop it to get the wound better.
2. With the lacerations extending horizontally, does that imply that the bullet hit at a grazing angle (the guy was not square to the shoter), or is that just how the skin will break under those dynamic conditions.
3. How ugly was his wife. And who would be dumb enough to cross a guy that looks like that.
4. I'm starting to rethink my 9mm pistol plans. All pistol cartridges suck compared to a rifle round (when they go off), but I think a .45 might, and a 10mm would have been more decisive.
5. Bean bags, hell they should have Jarted him. Jarts: An IQ Test with Consequences.
makes ya think :)
I have to say though I bet more people have one the lottery than hit in the head and lived !
but also if a big whack job like that came at me and all I had is a 9mm then I for sure would have put about 5 more in the middle of his face
while many have lived getting hit with a 9 many have been dropped with them heck look how many have gone down with a 22lr ?
nothing is %100
does make me think of carrying a 10mm though :)
like others I wonder what would have happened if it was a 45 or 40 or 10 or ?
hmmmmm maybe they should take him out and test it out :)
maybe its time to go back to my old school days and carry that .45 instead ?
Littlelebowski
01-26-09, 05:57
he shot his whore of a cheating wife.. it's not like he's the virginia tech shooter.
So what? Does cheating deserve being shot?
bkb000,
Remind me not piss on your mailbox. I wouldn't want to get shot. Cheating or not doesn't mean she deserved to be murdered because that's what happened. She wasn't just shot. So now the kids get to grow up with their mom dead and their dad in prison quite possibly as wards of the state. Isn't that just great??
I wonder if he was shot with a 9mm frangible training round.
John_Wayne777
01-26-09, 07:21
The guy looks like the precursor to Cro-Magnon Man, so consider the thickness of his skull vs. the 9mm round...
...vs. a sub-sonic 9mm round, most likely...
From the looks of the wound it looks like his head may have been turned and the shot may not have hit square...there may have been enough angle that the round just skimmed around the outside of his skull, thus the large-ish tear in his forehead.
John_Wayne777
01-26-09, 07:28
I wonder if he was shot with a 9mm frangible training round.
A good question...the previous point about using sub-sonic ammo also intrigues me.
The only thing about subsonic is that I wouldn't expect it to come apart as the original post indicated.
It will be interesting to have followup on this.
John_Wayne777
01-26-09, 07:43
Well, on the plus side...at leas this guy wasn't hollering at them to stop shooting him with that thing.
The round used was from Federal.
We've had one or two Federal PREMIUM .223 rounds (not practice stuff) do that over the years. I would never carry Commercial Federal ammo for defensive purposes.
I wonder if the first guy in the stack transitioned?
Whatever happened to follow through and shooting till the threat falls from your sights...
Gutshot John
01-26-09, 09:16
From the looks of the wound it looks like his head may have been turned and the shot may not have hit square...there may have been enough angle that the round just skimmed around the outside of his skull, thus the large-ish tear in his forehead.
You can tell that his forehead has a long surgical incision if you look closely so it's not entirely the bullet.
The bullet hit and and glanced to his right, the surgeon increased the size of the wound to the left in order to debride it.
I'd agree with those that say that this is more about shot placement than terminal performance.
All that said, none of the SWAT guys nor the hostage were hurt during the entry. I feel sorry for the kid, he's FfL.
One thing I would like to point out as a possible cause of the 9mm failure with the MP5SD is this. I've worked with three different Officers from three different agencies that have been issued HK MP5SD's.
Each and every one of them was running 147 gr. subsonic ammunition in the guns until I explained to them how the suppressor system on the HK works and to maintain standard ammunition in it. It all boils down to the agencies purchased the guns and issued them out with zero detailed training on them other than firing qualifications. The Officers and agencies all had heard to use subsonic ammunition with suppressors and just ran with it.
It may be possible that this is what occured with this shooting. Subsonic ammunition utilized with then more velocity bled off.
But that's all just a guess.
It is my understanding that they were running some form of +P in the gun (am trying to verify the round).
C4
Okay from the pic posted, the guy looks like a mouth breathing trog-la-dite. Thick skull small brain cavity. My wife works the ER (RN 26 yrs) at an inner city hosp. She has seen numerous 'walk ins' 6+ in the last year (under their own power) that had numerous hits with 9mm. The latest had one the the arm, two leg, two stomach, two chest, drove himself to the er, alert till surgery. I know shot placement is critical but the wife would just as soon carry "a big ****ing rock than a 9mm" her words not mine. She simply doesn't trust its stopping power.
FWIW she carries a Kimber CDP Ultra .45
I think ANY pistol caliber would have caused the same thing. The only one that I think might of stood a chance is a 10mm or 357SIG.
Shot placement is EVERYTHING with most generally any types of ammo.
C4
I wonder if the first guy in the stack transitioned?
Whatever happened to follow through and shooting till the threat falls from your sights...
Don't know. I am lead to believe that he was VERY close to the guy when he pulled the trigger on his AR. I personally would have muzzle struck him and then either tackled him to the ground or transitioned.
Typically, when the lead guy gets a malfunction, he will either peel off from the stack or transition (depending on how far the bad guy is).
I am trying to get more details as I have the #1 guys e-mail address.
C4
I wonder if he was shot with a 9mm frangible training round.
Negative.
C4
We've had one or two Federal PREMIUM .223 rounds (not practice stuff) do that over the years. I would never carry Commercial Federal ammo for defensive purposes.
I believe that they were using the Tactical Federal load.
The #1 guy was apparently PISSED at Federal (well no shit) and had a little discussion with them recently.
I am sure that conversation was friendly. ;)
C4
FromMyColdDeadHand
01-26-09, 09:26
Who was it that said,
Thw two loudest sounds are 'Click, when you expect bang' and 'Bang when you expect click'.
Gutshot John
01-26-09, 09:33
I think ANY pistol caliber would have caused the same thing. The only one that I think might of stood a chance is a 10mm or 357SIG.
Shot placement is EVERYTHING with most generally any types of ammo.
C4
Actually without more information I would bet that the ER story was more about shot placement as well.
Two well-placed shots in the chest and drove himself to the hospital? Given that most inner-city types I've dealt with call paramedics for a bad cold, it seems odd that he would have driven himself when shot 5 times unless none of the wounds were very serious. In which case it's not about the caliber.
Don't know. I am lead to believe that he was VERY close to the guy when he pulled the trigger on his AR. I personally would have muzzle struck him and then either tackled him to the ground or transitioned.
Typically, when the lead guy gets a malfunction, he will either peel off from the stack or transition (depending on how far the bad guy is).
I am trying to get more details as I have the #1 guys e-mail address.
C4
Your points are well taken. At 10' transitioning would be a good move. At less than say 5' muzzle striking, tackling, going hands on, quickly followed by gang tackling him could work also.
Please fill us in on what the email from #1 guy says. Lots of good learning points in this topic.
Rifle bullets generally work better than handgun, but it is truly all about shot placement:
http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/postimages/77991-CNStargetfront.jpg
http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/postimages/77992-CNStargetside.jpg
DocGKR:
Thanks for posting the diagrams. I hold a slightly different opinion on the aiming points for optimal brainstem disruption, but I am at work and have no access to programs that I can use to illustrate our divergence of opinion. In any event, such divergence is small, and I would certainly not say that your markings are "wrong". I will try to get to it when I get off-shift tonight, or perhaps tomorrow morning.
I have several cases in my own files and have knowledge of dozens of others where a service caliber bullet (38 Spl, 357 Mag, 9mm, 40 S&W, .45 ACP) has struck the cranium at an angle and has failed to penetrate into the braincase. It is NOT a matter of caliber or load. It IS a matter of shot placement. There is a lot of hard, smooth bone in the upper half of the head, and it's angular/curved, like the glacis on the front of a tank. It's evolved that way so that offending articles like sticks, stones, teeth, fists, and other hazards of the primitive world, will glance off rather than getting a straight shot into the brain.
In my training, I emphasize to trainees that use of surface landmarks for shot placement is highly suspect. You need to learn the anatomy well enough to visualize the location of the Brainstem from any angle, then put your bullet into the brainstem. I offer the true story of a police sniper in an unnamed city who was given the green light to put down a hostage-taker. However, all of his training had been done on a flat range, whereas in his real situation he was elevated 30 degrees above the offender. He used the surface landmark he'd been taught to use, but because of the steep angle (and the fact that the felon's head was turned slightly) even though he hit the surface landmark precisely, the bullet only shattered the jaw and damaged some soft tissues in the neck, failing to incapacitate the felon. The hostage was subsequently shot by the offender. Both lived and both sued.
By way of contrast, a large metropolitan PD near me which has been using my 3D target organ visualization training for several years had a recent OIS in which the offender was contorted into an odd position. At 40+ feet distance, the officer placed a single round of .40 cal GDHP into the parietofrontal region of the cranium, took out the Brainstem, and ended the fight DRT.
GSW incapacitation mirrors the mantra of real estate investing: location, location, and location are the three most important factors.
One pretty much said it all. When we got our MP5s everybody wanted the SDs but after a few failures we figured out they were basically a 380 due to the vented barrel. If I recall, the MP5SD didn't do so well in the Beverly Hills incident either.
We've had one or two Federal PREMIUM .223 rounds (not practice stuff) do that over the years. I would never carry Commercial Federal ammo for defensive purposes.
Maybe Wolf is better! :D:D:D
Dang, Grant, you Ohio guys are tough!
When I first saw that guy's picture, I thought it was an ad for a new Jack Black movie.
This sort of thing happens often.
I've worked either street shootings or attempted suicides with all of the smaller calibers, but I have also worked two head shot shootings where the victim survived shots from .40s and .45s. The .40 case involved a FM/FP round to the back of the head.
The cop literature has many examples of this stuff, including rounds as large as 12 gauge slugs.
Reading Jim Cirillo's articles and book will give shooters an idea of just how common this is.
One of the reasons I like the 127gr Ranger-T for carry is the flat, hard wadcutter-ish nose, combined with the high velocity it grabs well on sloped, hard surfaces in testing that I have done.
Looking at that guy's head, he appears to be able to take an RPG hit in the nugget without much damage.
FromMyColdDeadHand
01-27-09, 06:11
I wonder what kind of street cred you get in prison when people find out you got shot in the head by cops, and lived. Explain that scar for the rest of your life. Looks like intern sew that up.
CarlosDJackal
01-27-09, 15:09
...http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/postimages/77990-DanielTice9mmMP5tohead.jpg...
Isn't this guy in "My Name is Earl"? :D
1. Nice shot placement from the officer with the MP5.
3. If the guy is worth shooting once he is probably worth shooting several times.
Agreed
To everyone who has suggested the officer should have fired more rounds:
Has anyone definitively explained what effect the first shot had on CroMag? If the dude fell to the ground passed out, or just bleeding profusely and offering no resistance, the officer just might not have needed to fire more shots.
The mere fact that the guy lived != he was still standing and fighting.
If I missed something in a previous post saying he was still combative (or still standing) after the one shot, then mea culpa.
The photo looks like he's had a bit more facial trauma in the past. Scars around the chin, cheek.
A few ruined lives in that deal.
To everyone who has suggested the officer should have fired more rounds:
Has anyone definitively explained what effect the first shot had on CroMag? If the dude fell to the ground passed out, or just bleeding profusely and offering no resistance, the officer just might not have needed to fire more shots.
The mere fact that the guy lived != he was still standing and fighting.
If I missed something in a previous post saying he was still combative (or still standing) after the one shot, then mea culpa.
i'd pictured it that he'd been hit and went down- why fire more rounds when you just blew the guy's head off? i imagine the officer had no idea the bullet didn't enter the skull cavity, had no reason to believe the guy wasn't in the process of DRTing. furthermore, i'm sure the perp also thought he was effectively DRT and probably behaved as such.
This past fall, a large SWAT team here had a failure to fire from an M4 with Hornady TAP ammo during an entry--fortunately no officers were hurt and the suspect immediately threw down his weapon when the carbine went click instead of bang. After the incident was concluded, the team went to the range and expended the rest of their carbine ammo and had one additional failure to fire. This same team had 3 Hornady TAP rounds fail to fire in training a couple of years ago. Last year, when Pat Rogers was teaching a class at a nearby agency, there were 5 failures to fire using Hornady TAP ammo. In all 10 cases, there appeared to be good primer strikes, but no rounds fired. On analysis, the ammunition had powder and checked out otherwise.
However, two problems were discovered. First, some of the primer strikes had insufficient firing pin indentations. The round from the potential OIS incident had a primer strike of only .013"—the minimum firing pin indent for ignition is .017". In addition, the primers on the other rounds were discovered to have been damaged from repeated chambering. When the same cartridge is repeatedly chambered in the AR15, the floating firing pin lightly taps the primer; with repeated taps, the primer compound gets crushed, resulting in inadequate ignition characteristics--despite what appears to be a normal firing pin impression. Once a round has been chambered, DO NOT RE-CHAMBER IT for duty use. Do NOT re-chamber it again, except for training. This is CRITICAL!!!
Thank you for this information. I had no clue that this was an issue. Though I have to say that I never had any issues when I was in Iraq.
Thank you for this information. I had no clue that this was an issue. Though I have to say that I never had any issues when I was in Iraq.
I didn't either. So I ejected the round currently chambered. Yup. Dented primer... Probability of a slam fire in normal use?
small percentiles for professionals are big percentiles. if only .1% of rechambered rounds will FTF, that's a lot of dead cops and soldiers when you look at the hundreds of thousands that depend on that first round to go off. so people who look at the bigger picture and research these things come up with strategies to cut that .1% down to 0%- like not ever re-chambering a chambered round.
people will never understand why "well i've put 1,000 rounds through MY olyarms and never had any problems" doesn't mean anything. a small percentage of dead good guys is still dead good guys.
small percentiles for professionals are big percentiles. if only .1% of rechambered rounds will FTF, that's a lot of dead cops and soldiers when you look at the hundreds of thousands that depend on that first round to go off. so people who look at the bigger picture and research these things come up with strategies to cut that .1% down to 0%- like not ever re-chambering a chambered round.
people will never understand why "well i've put 1,000 rounds through MY olyarms and never had any problems" doesn't mean anything. a small percentage of dead good guys is still dead good guys.
Excellent point.
exkc135driver
01-29-09, 00:46
he shot his whore of a cheating wife.. it's not like he's the virginia tech shooter.
Being a little judgmental here, aren't you?
The article quoted in the first post said "[f]amily members say Tice was angered over his wife's affair with a family member and her demand for a divorce." It sounds like she found someone else. You can like it or not, but it happens all the time. (Looking at him, can you blame her for wanting to leave? He is one uuugly sumbitch. And obviously has an anger management problem).
No matter what she was doing (unless she was trying to kill him), he was in no way justified in killing her, even if she was having affairs with every guy in town. This is America, not Afghanistan.
More to the point, if she was demanding a divorce, that was probably why he killed her ("if I can't have her, nobody's going to have her"), not because of the affair.
It is sad that the first shot went "poop" and the second wasn't much better ... it would have saved the state a lot of money and effort.
Being a little judgmental here, aren't you?
The article quoted in the first post said "[f]amily members say Tice was angered over his wife's affair with a family member and her demand for a divorce." It sounds like she found someone else. You can like it or not, but it happens all the time. (Looking at him, can you blame her for wanting to leave? He is one uuugly sumbitch. And obviously has an anger management problem).
No matter what she was doing (unless she was trying to kill him), he was in no way justified in killing her, even if she was having affairs with every guy in town. This is America, not Afghanistan.
More to the point, if she was demanding a divorce, that was probably why he killed her ("if I can't have her, nobody's going to have her"), not because of the affair.
It is sad that the first shot went "poop" and the second wasn't much better ... it would have saved the state a lot of money and effort.
i think your font is broke.. here, i fixed it for you.
i didn't say he was justified.
small percentiles for professionals are big percentiles. if only .1% of rechambered rounds will FTF, that's a lot of dead cops and soldiers when you look at the hundreds of thousands that depend on that first round to go off. so people who look at the bigger picture and research these things come up with strategies to cut that .1% down to 0%- like not ever re-chambering a chambered round.
people will never understand why "well i've put 1,000 rounds through MY olyarms and never had any problems" doesn't mean anything. a small percentage of dead good guys is still dead good guys.
Very well said
Heavy Metal
01-29-09, 21:16
It's evolved that way so that offending articles like sticks, stones, teeth, fists, and other hazards of the primitive world, will glance off rather than getting a straight shot into the brain.
Doctor,
I would argue it has as much to do with the necessity of passing a child thru a birth canal. a half-sphere beats a squared up surface.
Ball vs Wadcutter.
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