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View Full Version : What is the scoop on Hornady's new handgun ammo with the plastic in the hollow point.



Alaskapopo
01-27-09, 00:24
This ammo looks interesting. I saw an add for it. It looks like it would help with clothing clogging the hollow point cavity and slowing and inhibiting expansion, which is a real concern for us here in Alaska.
Pat

HowardCohodas
01-27-09, 00:43
This ammo looks interesting. I saw an add for it. It looks like it would help with clothing clogging the hollow point cavity and slowing and inhibiting expansion, which is a real concern for us here in Alaska.
Pat

It is now my EDC in my LCP BUG.

http://www.hornady.com/images/newproducts/2009/Critical-Defense-AmmoCutAway.png

Hornady Web Page: http://www.hornady.com/story.php?s=786

Spec Sheet: http://www.hornady.com/images/sell_sheets/09-critical_defense.pdf

ToddG
01-27-09, 00:51
From what I've gathered, it's very similar to the older XTP design: deeper penetration than competing brands but not as much expansion.

The .380 variant was supposedly engineered specifically around the LCP. I look forward to seeing some good terminal ballistics testing of that load from the short gun. In the meantime, I'm sticking to the Gold Dot.

Zhukov
01-27-09, 10:18
For small calibers and BUGs, my general take is:

1) Good expansion
2) Deep penetration

Pick ONE of the above.

Brassfetcher.com had tested several .380 loads that seem to prove the above line of thinking, and the one that seemed to split the middle was (I hate to say it) the Hydra Shok. It had minimal expansion (a little of 0.4" if I remember) and adequate penetration of around 12" in gelatin.

The Hornady ammo seems to follow this same line of thinking. Minimal but reliable expansion and adequate penetration. This might make sense for small caliber rounds, but I can't see using this ammo in the larger calibers like 9mm or 38spl as there are much better choices.

[ETA] I guess they only list the .380, 9mm, and .38spl right now. So I would have to say that the only caliber I would consider this in is a .380 BUG like the LCP or P3AT.

sff70
01-28-09, 01:41
Deep penetation with little expansion is more effective than max expansion with shallow penetration.

Expansion should not be the #1 priority.

HowardCohodas
01-28-09, 04:20
Deep penetation with little expansion is more effective than max expansion with shallow penetration.

Expansion should not be the #1 priority.

Then gamma rays are your ideal choice.

sff70
01-28-09, 11:18
Then gamma rays are your ideal choice.

And this applies to handguns bullets how?

Are you advocating expansion at the cost of penetration?

ToddG
01-28-09, 11:40
Are you advocating expansion at the cost of penetration?

Any hollowpoint that expands does so at the cost of some penetration. In fact, just about every ballistics expert I've ever spoken to, regardless of which "camp" he fell into, seemed to agree that there was a sweet spot for penetration and too much beyond that was a waste at best and at worst an unnecessary danger.

HowardCohodas
01-28-09, 11:44
And this applies to handguns bullets how?

Are you advocating expansion at the cost of penetration?

Effectiveness of a round involves many variables and I have yet to hear a cogent argument in this thread to support the position that one is primary. I was using an absurdity to illustrate the absurdity of categorical statements without support or analysis.

Hornady's new ammo puts a premium on the reliability of expansion. If you agree that the damage done by expansion is a significant contributor to stopping effectiveness, then this is a useful advancement of the technology. I would argue that since bullet placement is not the most controllable variable in a SD event, that the damage done by an expanded bullet is an advantage over penetration, especially in small caliber. Since there are examples of the fight continuing several seconds after a bullet in the heart, it is hard to sustain the argument that penetration is the be all and end all.

I can also provide a good argument that penetration is also important. However, I'll leave that to the advocates of that position.

HowardCohodas
01-28-09, 11:46
Any hollowpoint that expands does so at the cost of some penetration. In fact, just about every ballistics expert I've ever spoken to, regardless of which "camp" he fell into, seemed to agree that there was a sweet spot for penetration and too much beyond that was a waste at best and at worst an unnecessary danger.

As usual, Todd says succinctly what some of us blather on about. I need succinct lessons.

DocGKR
01-28-09, 12:03
"Then gamma rays are your ideal choice."

Now that was funny!

Like most things in life, there needs to be a balance between penetration and expansion when discussing handgun projectiles. The degree and rapidity of any physiological incapacitation is determined by the anatomic structures the handgun projectile disrupts and the severity the tissue damage caused by the bullet. Physiologically, immediate incapacitation or death can only occur when the brain or upper spinal cord is damaged or destroyed. Circulatory system collapse from severe disruption of the vital organs and blood vessels in the torso is the only other reliable method of physiological incapacitation from small arms. If the CNS is uninjured, physiological incapacitation is delayed until blood loss is sufficient to deprive the brain of oxygen. A penetrating handgun projectile physically crushes and destroys tissue as it cuts its path through the body. The space occupied by this pulped and disintegrated tissue is referred to as the permanent cavity. The permanent cavity, or wound track, is quite simply the hole bored by the handgun projectile's passage. The formation of this permanent cavity is consistent and reliable. More rapid incapacitation may occur with greater tissue disruption; obviously, handgun bullets of greater diameter crush more tissue, forming a larger permanent cavity. However, projectiles must be able to penetrate sufficiently to reach vital organs; handgun bullets that may be required to incapacitate aggressors must reliably penetrate a minimum of approximately 10 to 12 inches of tissue in order to ensure disruption of the major organs and blood vessels in the torso from any angle and through excessive adipose tissue, hypertrophied muscle, or intervening anatomic structures, such as a raised arm.

sff70
01-28-09, 13:00
Absolutely these things are all interconnected, and there are tradeoffs for everything. I do not envy the job of the engineers at the ammo companies. They have a very tough set of challenges to address.

And absolutely there is a "sweet spot". Per the FBI criteria, it's more than 12" and less than 18". But also in their words, over penetration is more desirable than underpenetration.

A projectile that expands at the cost of sufficient penetration is not a good tradeoff. One of the better examples of this is the STHP.

Once you have an adequate range of penetration to reach the vital organs, vessels, and structures, then a bigger projectile (expanding) is better. But you have to get to deep enough to reach them 1st.

A .75" diameter projectile penetrating 6" into the torso is not going to have the same effect as a .57" diameter projectile penetrating 12".

The more expansion you have, the less penetration you have, typically. One has an inverse effect on the other.

The challenge is how do you reliably increase both?

I would also argue that bullet placement is the most controllable variable in a self defense event. It's like real estate - location, location, location.

I acknowledge that proper placement can be sometimes difficult to attain in a fight, though through training we can increase the skill level to make this more likely.

Parabellum9x19mm
01-28-09, 21:18
a few questions

1)
is there the same problem with jacket separation like we see in the other poly filled hollow point projo, the Corbon Pow`R Ball?

in the high speed photos i saw, the Pow`R Ball completely separated into its three components: jacket, core and poly-ball. this occurred after only a few inches of bare jelly.


does anyone know if the new Hornady rounds are bonded better?

2)
how does the Hornady Critical Defense ammo stack up against the Federal EFMJ?

where can one even buy EFMJ? i haven't found a good source

3)
should i forget about the new Federal and Hornady loads and just stick to Speer GD?

ToddG
01-28-09, 22:38
3)
should i forget about the new Federal and Hornady loads and just stick to Speer GD?

That one's easy.

Yes.

Zhukov
01-29-09, 16:07
a few questions

2)
how does the Hornady Critical Defense ammo stack up against the Federal EFMJ?

where can one even buy EFMJ? i haven't found a good source


Are you located in a state that doesn't allow HPs? If so, then the Hornady's *might* be a good choice assuming their testing is legit.

But like the previous poster said - if you're already carrying GDHPs, then don't switch.

Parabellum9x19mm
01-29-09, 21:34
no, i'm not in New Jersey or anything.

i can have hollow points.

i'll just stick to Gold Dots. they feed well in everything and they perform well.

always looking for a better mousetrap for some reason, don't ask me why.

thanks for the info all.

DocGKR
01-30-09, 20:53
EFMJ, Powerball, etc... are NOT better than a robust expanding JHP, however, they are better than FMJ.

Alpha Sierra
01-31-09, 21:05
Maybe someone should test it according to IWBA protocols before pronouncing sentence?

DocGKR
02-02-09, 14:02
We are, this week in fact.

Zhukov
02-02-09, 15:53
We are, this week in fact.

Good news. Anytime something new comes out, people are always interested in finding out more about it. Hopefully you can share the results of your testing, especially if you're going to test the .380...

DocGKR
02-02-09, 17:21
Probably just the .38sp, because real men don't carry .380's...

PA PATRIOT
02-02-09, 21:30
Probably just the .38sp, because real men don't carry .380's...

Crap there goes my P3-AT .380acp BUG to my .38spl for low risk formal carry, then again I always wanted to get in touch with my feminine side.:D

Zhukov
02-03-09, 14:14
Probably just the .38sp, because real men don't carry .380's...

I was going to make a smart-ass comment calling out all people in the dental profession, but since I'm going in to get a crown tomorrow, I'll bite my tongue. Hey doc - you busy tomorrow morning? ;):D

DocGKR
02-09-09, 01:02
Turns out the Hornady FTX ammo does not do well...

All shots from a 1/7/8" barrel S&W J-frame at 10 ft.

.38 Sp Hornady 110 gr FTX "Critical Defense", ave vel=867fps
BG: pen=12.1"; RD=0.47"; RL=0.41"; RW=109.4gr
4LD: pen=19"+; RD=0.35"; RL=0.55"; RW=109.6gr

On the other hand, the Corbon DPX standard pressure load worked GREAT!!!

.38 Sp Corbon 110 gr JHP DPX (using Barnes XPB all copper bullets), ave vel=1021fps
BG: pen=13.0"; RD=0.52", RL=0.52", RW=109.5gr
4LD pen=12.4"; RD=0.52", RL=0.51", RW=109.7gr

.38 Sp Speer 135 gr +P JHP Gold Dot, ave vel=853fps (gold box)
BG: pen=12.6”, RD=0.54”, RL= 0.46", RW=133.4gr
4LD: pen=13.8”, RD=0.55”, RL=0.51", RW=135.5gr

http://i459.photobucket.com/albums/qq319/DocGKR/38GDvsDPXHornady.jpg?t=1234159334
135 gr +P Gold Dot, DPX, Hornady FTX

At this point in time, the two best loads for 2" J-frames are the Corbon 110 gr JHP DPX standard pressure load and the Speer 135 gr +P JHP Gold Dot.

Wayne Dobbs
02-09-09, 11:09
Doc,

I don't see it listed in the test results, but I'm assuming these were fired through some 1 7/8 - 2" barrel revolver?

DocGKR
02-09-09, 11:51
Yes, 2" (1 7/8") J-frame--corrected above.

Zhukov
02-09-09, 18:49
Doc - was it just these 6 shots, or are they a representative sample?

DocGKR
02-09-09, 23:44
We always shoot 5 shots of each type for each test event, unless otherwise specified.

DRT
02-10-09, 19:32
Perhaps the "critical-defense" load didnt do well in IWBA denim testing (clogged and didnt expand) because Hornady used the FBI heavy clothing protocol for their development.

Somewhat disappointing....I expected a better showing from Mr. Emery.

I like his 75gr 5.56mm rifle ammo, however!

DocGKR
02-10-09, 19:35
I am sending what we left from our test sample back to Hornady for analysis and they are sending another batch out from a new production lot.

Marcus L.
02-10-09, 19:48
That's too bad about the Critical Defense ammo. I'm willing to bet that the .380 will have similar disappointing results. I was hoping that we could finally get a .380acp load that could reliably penetrate up to 12" while maintaining a RD of .45-.50".

CarlosDJackal
02-11-09, 16:11
Is it me or does it look like the Speer 135 +P Gold Dot expanded pretty well despite being clogged up by the denim fabric (bottom round)?

DocGKR
02-11-09, 17:19
The Speer Gold Dot 135 gr +P load and the Barnes 110 gr projectile are the only two .38 SP loads we have found that reliably expand in the 4 layer denim test.

We scheduled to re-shoot the Hornady ammo tomorrow.

DocGKR
02-16-09, 01:14
Dave Emary of Hornady was good to his word and had the new .38 Sp FTX ammo shipment to us the next day. The new lot of standard pressure Hornady FTX, as well as a +P load, worked much better than in the previous test.

.38 Sp Hornady 110 gr FTX "Critical Defense", ave vel=876fps
BG: pen=12.7"; RD=0.46"; RL=0.40"; RW=108.9gr
4LD: pen=14.2"; RD=0.42"; RL=0.55"; RW=108.9gr

.38 Sp Hornady 110 gr +P FTX "Critical Defense", ave vel=940fps
BG: pen=12.3"; RD=0.52", RL=0.38", RW=109.0gr
4LD: pen=14.6"; RD=0.46", RL=0.43", RW=109.5gr

We also opened up a new case of Speer Gold Dot 135 gr +P JHP (53121), lot #L24N34, packed in a new type of 50 rd black box (previous lots have used a gold box) to serve as a control and comparison round.

.38 Sp Speer 135 gr +P JHP Gold Dot, ave vel=808fps (low of 744fps-high of 853 fps)
BG: pen=12.2”, RD=0.51”, RL= 0.51", RW=135.0gr
4LD: pen=19”+, RD=0.39”, RL=0.62", RW=135.1gr

While the Gold Dots were acceptable in bare gel, the 4 layer denim test was an unexpected and heretofore unseen disaster, with the NO test shots exhibiting adequate expansion. The inconsistent velocity with overly large spread was of significant concern and likely plays a role in this failure.

110 gr standard pressure Horn FTX in BG top & in 4LD middle; 4LD 135 gr +P GD bottom:
http://i459.photobucket.com/albums/qq319/DocGKR/38HornFTXGD4DL.jpg?t=1234767512

Unfortunately, this bad lot of Gold Dot is on the street as issued BUG ammo for a large PD--this is a textbook example of why EVERY lot of duty ammo should ideally be tested to ensure adequate performance BEFORE being issued.

Jim from Houston
02-16-09, 02:15
In the picture of Gold Dots recovered from the 4L denim test, are the rounds on the left (which look virtually unfired) the ones that displayed the very low velocities?

100 fps variation in velocity is certainly disturbing in a single lot of ammo...and pretty embarrassing for a brand like Speer (for whom I'm looking at an old piece of advertising that brags about their ISO 9001 quality control certification...)

So, the Hornady Critical Defense has now flunked a test, and passed another...and the Gold Dot has passed tests up til now, but flunks the latest...does this mean that the DPX is now the way to go for .38 snubs? Or the good old 148gr wadcutters, of course...

DocGKR
02-16-09, 03:13
If you have a known lot of 135 gr +P Gold Dot, you are likely OK; if you have an untested lot of Gold Dot, especially in the new black box, I'd be very cautious...

The 110 gr XPB bullets appear to work well, but Corbon seems to have relabeled this loading as a +P; velocity and code number is the same on the box, but recent production is now labeled +P...very odd.

The nice thing about wadcutters is that they always work the same:

.38 Sp Federal 148 gr lead wadcutter GM38A, ave vel=651fps (J-frame 2")
BG & 4LD: pen=19"; RD=0.36"; RL=0.64"; RW=147.5gr

Beat Trash
02-16-09, 05:38
If you have a known lot of 135 gr +P Gold Dot, you are likely OK; if you have an untested lot of Gold Dot, especially in the new black box, I'd be very cautious...


Would you be able to post the Lot # of the Gold Dot tested?

Jim from Houston
02-16-09, 06:12
Would you be able to post the Lot # of the Gold Dot tested?

The lot number is in Doc's post above: L24N34

Beat Trash
02-16-09, 15:22
The lot number is in Doc's post above: L24N34

Sorry, must have missed it.

Thanks...

DigMe
02-19-09, 22:03
A guy over on XDTalk had a squib of this Hornady Critical Defense in his Bersa .380:

http://www.xdtalk.com/forums/ammo-can/104781-critical-defense-4.html

:eek:

Zhukov
02-20-09, 10:28
I love posts like from this guy:

"You're correct if we can look up the information we need. But without the ability to lookup data for say, P9HST4 in a sub-compact we are left with few other options than to do comparitive testing on our own in whatever media we have available.

As for failures to expand, that's a problem caused by the denim so, I would, in fact, expect to duplicate results regardless of the wet medium employed."

You can shoot wet newspaper until you're blue in the face, and it still won't tell you what you need to know. Don't even get me started on the second paragraph. The failure in logic is just so startling it takes my breath away...

wrinkles
02-20-09, 13:28
I see that a lot on some sites, they would rather shoot brisket, dead dear, wet news papers, etc ... than trust published data conducted using IWBA or FBI protocols.:confused:

rubberneck
02-20-09, 13:34
no, i'm not in New Jersey or anything.

i can have hollow points.

So can we. The hollow points are banned in New Jersey is one of the more enduring gun myths.

oldtexan
02-20-09, 16:43
We also opened up a new case of Speer Gold Dot 135 gr +P JHP (53121), lot #L24N34, packed in a new type of 50 rd black box (previous lots have used a gold box) to serve as a control and comparison round.

.38 Sp Speer 135 gr +P JHP Gold Dot, ave vel=808fps (low of 744fps-high of 853 fps)
BG: pen=12.2”, RD=0.51”, RL= 0.51", RW=135.0gr
4LD: pen=19”+, RD=0.39”, RL=0.62", RW=135.1gr

While the Gold Dots were acceptable in bare gel, the 4 layer denim test was an unexpected and heretofore unseen disaster, with the NO test shots exhibiting adequate expansion. The inconsistent velocity with overly large spread was of significant concern and likely plays a role in this failure.


Unfortunately, this bad lot of Gold Dot is on the street as issued BUG ammo for a large PD--this is a textbook example of why EVERY lot of duty ammo should ideally be tested to ensure adequate performance BEFORE being issued.

Egads! Just checked my stockpile of GDHP .38 +P 135 grain; it's all this accursed bad lot. Guess I'll be carrying the PM9 as a backup until I can find a decent lot of Gold Dot or get some CorBon. Thanks for the info, Doc!

tpd223
02-23-09, 02:58
"The hollow points are banned in New Jersey is one of the more enduring gun myths."

Hollow point ammo for regular folks has indeed been banned in the past.
The law only allows on duty New Jersey officers to carry JHP ammo. Even out of state cops carrying under HR218 can not carry JHP ammo in their handguns.

http://www.state.nj.us/njsp/about/fire_hollow.htm

Talking to coppers I know who travel there to give training, they carry Federal's EFMJ in their semi-autos and either SWC or PowerBall in their J frames.


BTW, This would leave me in a quandary, as by my department's general orders I must carry authorized ammo in my off-duty weapon, all of which is JHP ammo.
I see no reason to go to New Jersey.

rubberneck
02-23-09, 08:57
"The hollow points are banned in New Jersey is one of the more enduring gun myths."

Hollow point ammo for regular folks has indeed been banned in the past.
The law only allows on duty New Jersey officers to carry JHP ammo. Even out of state cops carrying under HR218 can not carry JHP ammo in their handguns.

http://www.state.nj.us/njsp/about/fire_hollow.htm

Talking to coppers I know who travel there to give training, they carry Federal's EFMJ in their semi-autos and either SWC or PowerBall in their J frames.


BTW, This would leave me in a quandary, as by my department's general orders I must carry authorized ammo in my off-duty weapon, all of which is JHP ammo.
I see no reason to go to New Jersey.

Stick to talking about gun laws in Kansas as you are out of your depth here. Again hollow points are not illegal for private ownership here in New Jersey. I can walk into any gun store in this state and buy hollow points legally. What I can't do is carry them, then again we don't really have CCW in NJ so this is a moot point, nor can I use them in the commission of a crime (duh). I can have them at home, my place of business (if I own the business) or at the range.

Please stop posting on subject matters you have no experience with.


N.J.S.A 2C:39-3f(1) limits the possession of hollow nose ammunition. However, there is a general exception that allows for the purchase of this ammunition but restricts the possession of it to specified locations. This exception provides that:

(2) Nothing is sub section f (1) shall be construed to prevent a person from keeping such ammunition at his dwelling, premises or other land owned or possessed by him, or from carrying such ammunition from the place of purchase to said dwelling or land . . . [N.J.S.A 26:39-3g (2)].

Thus a person may purchase this ammunition and keep it within the confines of his property. Sub section f (1) further exempts from the prohibited possession of hollow nose ammunition "persons engaged in activities pursuant to N.J.S.A 2C:39-6f. . . ."
N.J.S.A 26:39-3f. (1).

Activities contained in N.J.S.A 26:39-6f. can be broken down as follows:

1.A member of a rifle or pistol club organized under rules of the National Board for the Promotion of Rifle Practice and which filed its charter with the State Police;
2.A person engaged in hunting or target practice with a firearm legal for hunting in this State;
3.A person going directly to a target range, and;
4.A person going directly to an authorized place for "practice, match, target, trap or skeet shooting exhibitions."

snubbie K
02-23-09, 21:23
This report by Stephen Camp seems to show that the .380 round is a pretty good one for carry in a small auto.

http://hipowers-handguns.blogspot.com/2008/12/informal-tests-hornady-critical-defense.html

I have an LCP and I carry the Hornady stuff - based quite a bit on the report by Camp. I believe that he is a pretty good and fair tester and writer and not beholden to any of the ammo companies, including Hornady.

This stuff seems to be as good as anything in my admitedly marginal occasional pocket carry gun.

Alaskapopo
02-24-09, 01:52
Stick to talking about gun laws in Kansas as you are out of your depth here. Again hollow points are not illegal for private ownership here in New Jersey. I can walk into any gun store in this state and buy hollow points legally. What I can't do is carry them, then again we don't really have CCW in NJ so this is a moot point, nor can I use them in the commission of a crime (duh). I can have them at home, my place of business (if I own the business) or at the range.

Please stop posting on subject matters you have no experience with.

I was told that you could own them like you are saying but if you have then loaded in your home defense pistol and you have a shooting you get fined for every bullet in the gun. Is that a myth as well. Thanks
Pat

snubbie K
02-24-09, 12:15
This report by Stephen Camp seems to show that the .380 round is a pretty good one for carry in a small auto.

http://hipowers-handguns.blogspot.com/2008/12/informal-tests-hornady-critical-defense.html

I have an LCP and I carry the Hornady stuff - based quite a bit on the report by Camp. I believe that he is a pretty good and fair tester and writer and not beholden to any of the ammo companies, including Hornady.

This stuff seems to be as good as anything in my admitedly marginal occasional pocket carry gun.

I neglected to add the link to the site referred to in the post before (I took care of it now).

rubberneck
02-24-09, 13:42
I was told that you could own them like you are saying but if you have then loaded in your home defense pistol and you have a shooting you get fined for every bullet in the gun. Is that a myth as well. Thanks
Pat

No additional penalty for the lawful use of hollow points. If the shooting is isn't justified you're looking at additional jail time.

bernieb90
02-25-09, 01:15
This Hornady ammo reminds of all the guys who always talked about filling the hollowpoint cavities with such things such as wax, silicone, or grease to facilitate expansion, and reduce clogging with clothing. Hornady seems to have done just that with the use of this elastomer plug in the cavity. At this point to me it seems like DPX is the most consistent load out there in .38 Special.

I have heard rumors of the patent for Barnes bullets expiring in the near future, leaving the door open for other manufacturers to make their own copper bullets. I have seen Magtech copper pistol bullets, and many manufacturers now produce copper rifle bullets. Are there any specific details on the patent?

PA PATRIOT
06-05-09, 14:23
DocGKR,

Have you ever seen or heard of a 38 Sp Corbon 110 gr JHP DPX using Barnes XPB all copper bullet failing to expand or penetrate properly when shot out of a 2"inch revolver either in bare or 4LD? Almost sounds like the magic load for the 38 Sp BUG as long as the shots are unobstructed torso hits. I'M still hanging with a decent amount of Fuzzies Safe Stop 148gr FMJ cup faced full wad cutters @700fps but was looking at the DPX for speed loader or speed strip use for faster reloads.

Submariner
06-17-09, 21:23
The 110 gr XPB bullets appear to work well, but Corbon seems to have relabeled this loading as a +P; velocity and code number is the same on the box, but recent production is now labeled +P...very odd.

Is this re-labeled +P the same ammunition you recommend for .38 Sp.?

DocGKR
06-17-09, 21:41
"Is this re-labeled +P the same ammunition you recommend for .38 Sp.?"

Seems to be.


"Have you ever seen or heard of a 38 Sp Corbon 110 gr JHP DPX using Barnes XPB all copper bullet failing to expand or penetrate properly when shot out of a 2"inch revolver either in bare or 4LD?"

Nope. I have the 110 gr DPX in my J-frames.

167
07-02-09, 23:34
I know the FTX isn't designed to go through intermediate barriers (glass, walls, etc.) or at least so says the advertising IIRC but I was wondering how it does through barriers just out of curiosity anyway? Anyone know?

PA PATRIOT
07-03-09, 17:37
I carry in New Jersey while off-duty using my J-frame loaded with fuzzies Safe Stop .38spl 148gr plated cup-faced full wad-cutters during the summer, I wonder if the "CUP-FACE" of the Safe Stop full wad-cutter would be considered a Hollow Point under New Jersey's law? While the bullet is fully plated and No Exposed Lead or jacket notches I have never seen a picture of a fired round. DocGKR I'M sure you tested this load did you see any disruption/up-set of this Cup-Face during your tests?

Thanks
Phila PD

DocGKR
07-03-09, 18:02
There is no advantage to the cup-face vs. a flat face.

PA PATRIOT
07-04-09, 19:51
Phila PD wrote,
I carry in New Jersey while off-duty using my J-frame loaded with fuzzies Safe Stop .38spl 148gr plated cup-faced full wad-cutters during the summer, I wonder if the "CUP-FACE" of the Safe Stop full wad-cutter would be considered a Hollow Point under New Jersey's law? While the bullet is fully plated and No Exposed Lead or jacket notches I have never seen a picture of a fired round. DocGKR I'M sure you tested this load did you see any disruption/up-set of this Cup-Face during your tests?

Thanks
Phila PD



There is no advantage to the cup-face vs. a flat face.

Yes Sir I understand that, my question is more based on could a New Jersey Prosecutor try to make a case that the Safe Stop bullet is of Hollow Point design because of the "Cup Face" indent even though the bullet is fully plated and non-notched. My inquiry was to ask if you have ever seen during your testing of Safe Stop bullets that the Cup Face indent flatten or caused the diameter of the bullet to increase in any way on impact with ballistic gel or any other barrier you may have shot. My hoping is that it does not and my response if question is that the Safe Stop .38spl 148gr cup-faced wad-cutter is a non-expanding solid and that the cup-face indent is non-functioning as a so called hollow point.

DocGKR
07-04-09, 21:03
There is no scientific possibility that the Safe-Stop could ever be considered a JHP.

Of course what do I know--there is no difference in practical functionality between a Colt AR15 and a Ruger Mini-14, but nevertheless the CA gov't ignored science and banned one as an evil black "assault weapon", while the other is a fine upstanding citizen's rifle--even though both are the same caliber, have same size magazines, and offer the same rate of fire...

Glock17JHP
07-06-09, 10:58
There is no scientific possibility that the Safe-Stop could ever be considered a JHP.

How about a 'political' possibility??? :D