View Full Version : My year with Pmags
Triad Tactical
01-28-09, 12:16
My year with Pmags.
In the fall of 2007, I was involved in a program that purchaed 50 black pmags from Brownells for a 2007-2008 patrol rifle program. All of them arrived in short order and I found they were all post-recall manufacture. The rifle program was to involve about 400 shooters, each shooting just fewer than 500 rounds during the two day class. Course of fire was simple, adhering to the lowest common shooter theory. No full auto fire, no string of fire longer that 7 rounds rapid fire (NSR). Classes consisted of 12-16 shooters, in two relays. Each shooter was given three pmags at the start of the course. Pretty straight forward stuff, load/unload/reload/stoppages etc, we did nothing that would surprise you.
By the end of the first class, 50% of the pmags were broken. All of them had split where the feed lips meet to form a V on the spine. I called Magpul and they over nighted me 50 new pmags and a prepaid return label for all 50 of the ones I had, broken or not. They asked me a bunch of questions about the who, what, when, where and how the mags had been used. This was very cool and I was pleased with the way it was handled. I was back on track and had one course of 26 in the books, 25 to go.
During the next few courses, I was constantly checking mags, and was finding a few more that were split each day. After several weeks, maybe 3-4 courses, about 50% of the pmags were broken. The split was very easy to see if the mag had more that 3-4 rounds in it, if not, just pushing my thumbs against the feed lips would cause it to show. I called Magpul back and the same overnight exchange was made and a few more questions answered about how they were being used. They told me that there had been some changes made to material flowed into the mould, the new mags should be good to go.
After about another months worth of classes, I had a pile of split mags set aside. Not 50% like before, more like 25% out of the third batch of 50 (batch #2 straight from Magpul). This time they replaced just the damaged mags, they no longer wanted the undamaged mags back. This process was repeated one more time at the end of the training cycle. After two month off from PR training, we started again with the 2008-2009 training cycle, which was a one day refresher course. After the first two month of training, we again had to replace about 20-25% of the pmags (just the mag bodies this time). The 08-09 cycle is still in process at this time, with the Pmags.
The split was easy to spot, either a mag split right away or not at all. I started numbering the mags and tracking them when magpul sent me the first batch overnight. We found that a split mag could still be used, up to the point that it started to double feed rounds. Once the split started, the mags would not drop free, loaded or not. Its good to know that the split is easy to spot, and they tend to split right away if they are going to.
I am not here to condemn a $15.00 product, it is what it is. I am just sharing some info that lead me to the decision, once again, that there is no magic bullet, or magazine.
This thread requires some photos:
http://i609.photobucket.com/albums/tt174/triadtactical/Pmag-2.gif
http://i609.photobucket.com/albums/tt174/triadtactical/BrokenP-Mags.jpg
weird....the splits are all in the same spot/same shape.
None of mine have done that in a year+. I've had many range sessions with them but obviously dont have a large sample like yours to draw info from.
Don't the The_Katar see this. He was concerned about those who completely dumped their USGI stash for 100% Pmaggery.
Don't the The_Katar see this. He was concerned about those who completely dumped their USGI stash for 100% Pmaggery.
Still got enough of both ;)
I need to check my PMAGs.
Steve, I've had the same thing happen with one of my 2007 PMAGs. Since it was statistically insignificant sample, I neither posted about it nor contacted Magpul. It was a low round count magazine, but it had been kept loaded and exposed to a wide range of temperatures. Interestingly, the crack didn't affect the function. I found it during maintenance.
Just speculation on my part:
Given that the break is in the exact same place and appears to be caused by a pretty consistently delivered force, and given that it happened to an unusually high percentage of your mags, and given that is happened with multiple generations of the mags ...
Is it possible that some (or all) of the guns are playing a role? Either something is out of spec in the mag well or some part of the gun involved in stripping and feeding rounds into the chamber?
Have you done anything to identify which guns are producing the broken mags?
What temperature were these being used in?
Its kind of interesting to see the same failure point in all of those magazines.
I hope he doesn't say his agency guns are DPMS. :D
Parabellum9x19mm
01-28-09, 13:05
Don't the The_Katar see this. He was concerned about those who completely dumped their USGI stash for 100% Pmaggery.
never understood the people who "transitioned" from USGI over to PMags. an agency or department is one thing, but for a private individual to ever sell working magazines for a weapon system they still use never made sense to me.
i like having a healthy supply of Lancers, USGI and PMags.
speaking of PMags, my back-order on PMags is shipping from Brownells today. even getting some 20 round PMags that i've wanted for so long. oh happy happy happy times.
Just speculation on my part:
Given that the break is in the exact same place and appears to be caused by a pretty consistently delivered force, and given that it happened to an unusually high percentage of your mags, and given that is happened with multiple generations of the mags ...
Is it possible that some (or all) of the guns are playing a role? Either something is out of spec in the mag well or some part of the gun involved in stripping and feeding rounds into the chamber?
Have you done anything to identify which guns are producing the broken mags?
Agree. After you change the battery in your car 3 times in 1 month... It's time to look elsewhere for the reason your car won't start.
Very strange indeed. I'm interested in the outcome of this.
AirTrafficControl
01-28-09, 13:24
I'm just going to have a seat and enjoy some popcorn on this thread.
Also curious about make/model of rifles, unless I missed it.
This is the second Pmag that I have had crack in the exact same spot. The first one I had crack was during a SWAT school in NC a year ago. During day two I noticed that the top right round would just pop out the top. Upon inspection is when I noticed the crack. The mags were brand new, never loaded before the class. Despite the crack, I continued to use the mag to see if it would ever make the gun malfunction which it never did. I called magpul and of course they made it right!
So here we are a year later, I was shooting at the NRA range and laid my mag down on the table and again...the top round goes shooting across the table. I think to myself...not again! Upon inspection this one is cracked too. I shot the loaded rounds out of it and no malfunctions. I do not store my mags loaded and they are kept inside my safe. Both mags were manufactured in 10/07 and were windowed versions. I called magpul again and like always customer service is excellent and they are sending me a replacement. When I told him the date code he stated that that wasn't the first time that that date code has come up. Unfortunately, 6 out of the 7 pmags that I own are date coded 10/07.
ETA: The mag that split in NC, was my duty 6920. The one that split at the NRA was my factory complete LMT 16"
ETA2: Mags were never dropped on the feedlips and never beaten.
ETA3: When I spoke to magpul, they stated it was a problem in the molding process that has caused this.
http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm192/mamartin043/utf-8BSU1HMDAwOTMuanBn.jpg
guys, mags are a wear item. as I've reported before, last year, i used 10 D&H from bravoco and 10 pmags all year. i had 2 of the pmags develop cracks exactly like the ones in this thread, and 3 of the D&H mags either bend feed lips or have welds on the spine let go.
obviously my sample size is smaller, but the point is, my pmags are holding up as well or better than quality aluminum mags.
if you use them hard, particularly if you practice speed reloads with at least partially loaded mags, they wear out. they're 15 freakin dollars. buy a lifetime supply.
you'd be crazy to think they'll last forever
bully for magpul for replacing them. (they replaced mine two well) but i wouldn't think less of them if they didn't. it'd be like goodyear replacing my tires after 30k miles.
Failure2Stop
01-28-09, 13:43
Steve thanks for the info.
I am also curious about the guns involved in the course and if you think that there could be any correlation. Were breakages evenly spead among all weapons or were there greater breakages with particular students/guns?
What was the ground type?
Is it possible to share the date stamp, or is there concern that it could cause a deluge of needless returns to MagPul? Are all the broken mags from the same date stamp? Were other date stamps present in the sample?
Cheers.
I've seen a lot of mags go down in my time, but don't know that I've ever seen a significant number break in exactly the same place. That's pretty interesting. As others have stated, would love to know if any effort has been made to determine whether something in the rifle is partially responsible, or if this is just a high stress area that's bad in a particular batch. Definitely keep us updated.
Any chance this is due to partially loaded mags being dropped onto a concrete floor or other hard surface?
Para,
So when did you order your mags? Mine have been B/O since 01 DEC 08.
never understood the people who "transitioned" from USGI over to PMags. an agency or department is one thing, but for a private individual to ever sell working magazines for a weapon system they still use never made sense to me.
i like having a healthy supply of Lancers, USGI and PMags.
speaking of PMags, my back-order on PMags is shipping from Brownells today. even getting some 20 round PMags that i've wanted for so long. oh happy happy happy times.
Parabellum9x19mm
01-28-09, 14:15
i hate to tell you this but 02 JAN 2009.
the thing is, they called me saying my CC declined, because i must have entered the numbers wrong, so i gave the lady the correct numbers and it went thru.
i asked if they were shipping out today or the next day and she said yes. maybe my screw up somehow caused me to line-jump or something? i'm not sure.
2 JAN?? :(
I had 50 on back order since Nov. (from brownells)
Glad I have a crap load of Lancers and D&H USGI in my inventory with another 20 Lancers on route. Variety is key as the PMag isn't the mag to end all mags....
Bookmarked so I can follow the outcome. I have never seen that on any Pmags that I own or have used in others guns. I have never seen such a priceless $15 piece of plastic. I still use Colt USGI mags also though. Sounds like a Pmag inspection is in order.
sandman99and9
01-28-09, 14:48
Gotta love those backorders from brownells. Only thing I have got so far was the free catalog...lol Backorder from late Dec.
zippygaloo
01-28-09, 14:49
I've been 83.3% happy with my Cammenga EasyMags (http://cammenga.com/cammenga-products.php?category=5). :)
I've had a few PMAG's break on me. 1 was driven over twice with a B6 armorered Surburban in Iraq, 1 was dropped 3 times from the second story of our villa on its lips, 1 was shot twice with 7.62x39.
I've had over 300 PMAG's and those are my only failures.
Nothing man made is 100% but I have faith in PAMG's as far as mags go.
I wonder if this is why Lancer went with the steel feed lips...
This is interesting. I guess I have two questions, One is has Magpul ever issued a recall in regards to cracks like this for the Pmag? And second and probably the most important is what will happen if these become banned? Will they even be able to send us a replacement mag for a damaged one? If they are not able to and they start cracking it is a rather large waste of money. I have around 80 Pmags most of wish are just for future use and I use my USGI mags most often.
Dave
While I can see why you would say Mags are a wear item, I don think I agree. There are mags in service that have been around for decades and still work fine. Sure they probably have new springs but the mag themselves are fine.
Triad Tactical,
First of all, thanks for the feed back both here on the forum and direct.
Second, there were some changes in the molding process last year that corrected the cracking issue. Since the correction there have been a very limited number of PMAG's with this issue and most have been tracked to heavy abuse.
We have seen around .02% of the mags shipped in the last two plus years returned with cracking issues. Of this .02% we have replaced the bodies no questions asked.
We are always improving our process to ensure the highest quality product, no BS.
Cheers.
lanceriley
01-28-09, 16:29
i thoughts pmags were not prone to breakage.... what happened to all the videos and testings... ran over by a truck.... frozen and shot and thrown and dragged... ??!??!:confused::confused::confused:
The cracks look to always start at the same point, and propogate through the mag body in (approximately) the same path in every picture shown. I think this supports Magpul's assertion that this was a problem in the molding process. I'm not "that kind" of engineer these days but it is consistent with what I remember about material properties, mechanical stresses, and manufacturing processes.
i thoughts pmags were not prone to breakage.... what happened to all the videos and testings... ran over by a truck.... frozen and shot and thrown and dragged... ??!??!:confused::confused::confused:
Nothing is perfect, you always run the risk of getting lemons even several in a row. Somethings just have better odds
Triad Tactical
01-28-09, 18:17
Just speculation on my part:
Given that the break is in the exact same place and appears to be caused by a pretty consistently delivered force, and given that it happened to an unusually high percentage of your mags, and given that is happened with multiple generations of the mags ...
Is it possible that some (or all) of the guns are playing a role? Either something is out of spec in the mag well or some part of the gun involved in stripping and feeding rounds into the chamber?
Have you done anything to identify which guns are producing the broken mags?
Most of the rifles were M16a1 from DERMO. FA FCGs were removed and replaced with SA parts. Uppers were BM 16" M4gery with orig colt BGC and telescoping buttstock. These guns ran great, despite all the Wolf ammo we fed them. There was one RRA, and a factory BM at the start of class. Both the RRA and BM went Tango Uniform after the second or third class and were replaced with DERMO/BM rifles.
Triad Tactical
01-28-09, 18:19
What temperature were these being used in?
Its kind of interesting to see the same failure point in all of those magazines.
Kansas weather from Sept to June. Mid 80s down to the 20s. Nothing feaky. Ice, snow and water on the range for much of Dec and Jan. Range is gravel.
Triad Tactical
01-28-09, 18:26
Steve thanks for the info.
Is it possible to share the date stamp, or is there concern that it could cause a deluge of needless returns to MagPul? Are all the broken mags from the same date stamp? Were other date stamps present in the sample?
Cheers.
All of the orig batch from Brownells were post recall. First replacement batch were all the same stamp, I think they were 8/07. IIRC the second replacement batch was after they had made a mould change and were either 9/07 or 10/07.
Nothing is perfect, you always run the risk of getting lemons even several in a row. Somethings just have better odds
The answer to EVERY "how is x better than x" (and the like) discussions ever.
I vote Abraxas post be added to the intro of "the chart".
Triad Tactical
01-28-09, 18:55
Drake,
Glad to see you have a little time away from making important, cool stuff (T-Shirts and collectible posters). Sorry we did not get any one on one time at SHOT.
My sample is about 200 mags, out of which my failure rate was many times higher than the .02% that Drake mentions. Magpul asked all the questions about how the guns were shot, where the mags were dropped and how often. They did a through job, short of coming to our range for 1st hand info. Cant say I blame them. At some point you reach an acceptable rate of loss on an item, but when its as high as ours, it bears some investigation. My customer service was originally conducted by Nick, who followed up and reached out to me for info and input. When he moved on to another job at Magpul, his replacement was a little less attentive.
I regret not having more time to track the mags and their usage, but I had 16 hours to teach the course, and having students logging round count, number of times on the deck etc, was not within our capabilities.
As I stated early on, I am not here to announce the end of the Pmag as a product, or even to criticize it. I just wanted to share some information with you all.
I am pleased to have learned one thing, either the Pmag breaks or it does not. If it fails, its pretty easy to spot and get rid of.
Triad Tactical
01-28-09, 19:00
And one other thing:
The Magpul 556 Dummy Rounds ROCK!!
They lasted longer than any of the three other commercial brands that we used for drills. The induced stoppages caused most of the brass cases to bend and deform enough that they with not chamber or would stick tight if they did. Magpul products kept on ticking. We painted them with bright orange spray to make them easier to find.
Lets hear it for the DUMMIES from Magpul!!
Yeah.......
I grabbed a handful at SHOT for the same exact purpose, use it as training rounds.....
BTW, it was good to meet you at SHOT.
Heavy Metal
01-28-09, 19:33
I wonder if the fact they are all black is relevant? Every pic of a cracked (non-sampsonite gorillia'd aka KevinB) I have seen so far has been a black one.
i thoughts pmags were not prone to breakage.... what happened to all the videos and testings... ran over by a truck.... frozen and shot and thrown and dragged... ??!??!:confused::confused::confused:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v193/EvilKev/Magpul%20PMAG%20test/Iraq-Range26May001.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v193/EvilKev/Magpul%20PMAG%20test/Iraq-Range26May041.jpg
Parabellum9x19mm
01-28-09, 19:49
I wonder if the fact they are all black is relevant? Every pic of a cracked (non-sampsonite gorillia'd aka KevinB) I have seen so far has been a black one.
don't you remember? the black P-Clips are over 9000 times stronger than FDE and OD. this was already covered a couple months ago.
:D
"The split was easy to spot, either a mag split right away or not at all."
How many rounds do you have to put through one for it to be "right away"?
spamsammich
01-28-09, 20:06
Back when we used to injection mold parts, our company had something similar going on. It turned out to be as simple to fix as increasing the temperature of the mold tool by a few degrees so the plastic wouldn't cool too much during the injection process. Until we did that, the part would crack in a predictable pattern exactly 180 degrees from where the plastic entered the tool. Unfortunately you couldn't tell the part was defective until you put some stress on it.
I wonder if the fact they are all black is relevant? Every pic of a cracked (non-sampsonite gorillia'd aka KevinB) I have seen so far has been a black one.
Im in a plastic's class right now and my professor said that color is very important in the plastics industry and that certain colors do have different charactoristics. If you want I can ask him exactly why and get back to you.
B
Triad Tactical,
First of all, thanks for the feed back both here on the forum and direct.
Second, there were some changes in the molding process last year that corrected the cracking issue. Since the correction there have been a very limited number of PMAG's with this issue and most have been tracked to heavy abuse.
We have seen around .02% of the mags shipped in the last two plus years returned with cracking issues. Of this .02% we have replaced the bodies no questions asked.
We are always improving our process to ensure the highest quality product, no BS.
Cheers.
DrDrake, I know you can't or won't say to much more about this issue, but can you give us any further detail on what time period the molding process that corrected the cracking issue was last year ? Was it early 2008 or later in the year.
Just asking because it would be nice to know approx what date stamps we are looking at.
Thanks for any other info.
Parabellum9x19mm
01-28-09, 21:19
Im in a plastic's class right now and my professor said that color is very important in the plastics industry and that certain colors do have different charactoristics. If you want I can ask him exactly why and get back to you.
B
here we go again
Triad Tactical
01-28-09, 21:27
"The split was easy to spot, either a mag split right away or not at all."
How many rounds do you have to put through one for it to be "right away"?
Of our first 50 Pmags, 25 were broken after the first class of 500 rounds.
Triad Tactical
01-28-09, 21:31
Back when we used to injection mold parts, our company had something similar going on. It turned out to be as simple to fix as increasing the temperature of the mold tool by a few degrees so the plastic wouldn't cool too much during the injection process. Until we did that, the part would crack in a predictable pattern exactly 180 degrees from where the plastic entered the tool. Unfortunately you couldn't tell the part was defective until you put some stress on it.
This sounds very close to what they told me about the Pmag molds. They needed the material to flow better and fill the mold better before cooling. But then again, the only mold that I know about is in my fridge.
Of our first 50 Pmags, 25 were broken after the first class of 500 rounds.
Sounds like the most important lesson of all is to give any and all equipment a thorough testing before putting into service. Even well-respected, popular products.
The answer to EVERY "how is x better than x" (and the like) discussions ever.
I vote Abraxas post be added to the intro of "the chart".
Thank you:D
here we go again
care to explain this bub?
variablebinary
01-29-09, 10:03
Triad Tactical should be very careful when they start their car in the morning...
Since you are a new member this issue was discussed here previously. Not sure if the thread is still available or not. Anyways that's what he meant.
care to explain this bub?
thopkins22
01-29-09, 10:10
care to explain this bub?
The topic of polymer strength in relation to color was exhausted here a month or two ago. The general conclusion being that while it's true for some plastics, it is not true for others...like Magpul's stuff.
Thanks for the heads up gentleman.:)
From Snipers hide thread.
I run the Tech Support Department at Magpul and Drake's numbers are correct- we run about a .02% defective rate on average. We've sold over a million PMAGs so far with tens-of-thousands shipping every week and I can count on one hand the number of defective ones we get back on a weekly basis.
Since the PMAGs inception two years ago we've made a number of improvements in both design and manufacturing processes and are constantly making a good product better. There are no specific date codes to avoid and there are PMAGs from our first batches which are still running strong with many thousands of rounds through them.
True, IF a PMAG will crack it will most likely happen at that exact same spot and it will usually only happen very early on. However this is not the norm by any means but, like any product from any manufacturer, bad ones can occasionally make it out the door.
As always, we'll replace any defective PMAG with no hassles.
Steve,
Do you have any pics of the mag-catch shelf? Since we've never seen this many failures with one customer before I'm trying to determine if you simply got a bad batch or if it is something procedural in your training? Are there a lot a "tap-rack-bang's" and other magazine swap drills?
Since all the weapons are the same configuration with a variety of different manufacturer's parts I'm wondering if that has something to do with the failures as well...
Justin Beard
Magpul Industries
Tech Support / Customer Service
DrDrake, did magpul ever get their mags entered for the .gov test to replace the gi's?
i sent a letter to my gov reps about it back when i 1st heard about the testing...
if so, how did it go?
I've tested the PMAGs extensivly for Military purposes. There have been 600 in service at the Army's Joint Readiness Training Center, Fort Polk since August 2007.
In my testing, the cracks seen in Steve's photo's occured when full or partially loaded magazines were dropped on a hard surfaces repeatedely.
The explanation for this is that if you look at a loaded magazine, loaded with an even # of rounds, the open space is to the left of the top round, when looking from the back. When the mag is dropped loaded, the column of rounds impacts the hard surface and the mass of the rounds continues down. The top round is in contact already and the only place to go is next to it. When the rounds try to go next to the top round, they act as a wedge and you get the crack in exactly the same place. I have repeated this test dozens of times with the same result. In most cases, this didn't happen until the 6th to 8th drop on a hard surface. In my case I was testing on concrete.
As noted above, even when cracked, the mags were still able to be used and functioned fine. Aluminum or steel mags used in the same manner failed at a higer rate and were not usable, as they could not be inserted in the mag well or they would immediately double feed.
I do know that MAGPUL has continued to refine the manufacturing process and have tried different methods for improving the strength of the magazine.
I have not noted a difference in strength between Black, OD, FDE or foliage, Windowed or non-windowed and I've tested them all to see if there was a difference.
Consider your training program and number and inspect your mags periodically to detect damage. PMAGS do not replace this requirement.
Finally, PMAGS when empty are damn near indestructable. One thing to keep in mind is that if you are dropping a partially loaded mag, it should be because you had a failure of some sort and are moving to remedial action. If the magazine still has ammunition in it, you should be retaining it, probably out of contact.
Just my thoughts and experiences for your considersation.
Tom
In my testing, the cracks seen in Steve's photo's occured when full or partially loaded magazines were dropped on a hard surfaces repeatedely.
Tom
This pretty much has to be the issue I'd think. Also, I could see the problem developing even if the mag hits bottom down. The rounds in the mag will compress the spring when the mag bottom hits, then all the rounds will rebound back up slamming into the feedlips.
And one other thing:
The Magpul 556 Dummy Rounds ROCK!!
They lasted longer than any of the three other commercial brands that we used for drills. The induced stoppages caused most of the brass cases to bend and deform enough that they with not chamber or would stick tight if they did. Magpul products kept on ticking. We painted them with bright orange spray to make them easier to find.
Lets hear it for the DUMMIES from Magpul!!
Yeah.......
They are cool. I got a few for myself last year and will be stocking them. Just wish they came from Magpul in safety Orange or Blue or Green or something...
OK decimal point's trick me sometimes.........
Magpul says .02% of mags in the last 2 years has had this problem... My math says that means out of 10,000 mags 2 will be bad. Do you think they meant 2% ? That would mean 20 out of 1000
I have 10 OD and 4 black pmags and have had no problems but they were all made in 08.
I have shot them in a Sig 556, AR 15 and a Daewoo.
I for one think Pmags are awesome.
That being said I have never had any problems with my used USGI mags either.
But I don't use them in combat either.
Parabellum9x19mm
01-29-09, 18:45
little update w/my Brownell's order
only my 20s have shipped, my 30s are still on back-order
just wanted to clear this up.
The best selling point about pmags in this story I think is the fact that the cracked mags still functioned fine and did not cause any malfunctions!
Triad Tactical
01-29-09, 19:35
The best selling point about pmags in this story I think is the fact that the cracked mags still functioned fine and did not cause any malfunctions!
Not true, reread the first post. After a certain point, double feeds began showing up.
Triad Tactical
01-29-09, 20:20
From Snipers hide thread.
Steve,
Do you have any pics of the mag-catch shelf? Since we've never seen this many failures with one customer before I'm trying to determine if you simply got a bad batch or if it is something procedural in your training? Are there a lot a "tap-rack-bang's" and other magazine swap drills?
Since all the weapons are the same configuration with a variety of different manufacturer's parts I'm wondering if that has something to do with the failures as well...
Justin Beard
Magpul Industries
Tech Support / Customer Service
Justin/Drake
I will not be able to get any photos for some time. The mag catches were all factory colt M16a1, circa 1982.
Triad Tactical,
First of all, thanks for the feed back both here on the forum and direct.
Second, there were some changes in the molding process last year that corrected the cracking issue. Since the correction there have been a very limited number of PMAG's with this issue and most have been tracked to heavy abuse.
We have seen around .02% of the mags shipped in the last two plus years returned with cracking issues. Of this .02% we have replaced the bodies no questions asked.
We are always improving our process to ensure the highest quality product, no BS.
Cheers.
Given that out of the regular USGI mags I've bought, they've had a noticeably higher rate of "fubar right out of the box" than .02%, I'll stick with my Pmags. I didn't sell USGI's to buy Pmags, but I'll buy more Pmags. I own both, use both, and will continue to do so.
Jay Cunningham
01-30-09, 03:47
Given that out of the regular USGI mags I've bought, they've had a noticeably higher rate of "fubar right out of the box" than .02%
I hope you and others realize that not all "USGI" magazines are created equal. What are some of the brand-names associated with your bad experience?
Given that out of the regular USGI mags I've bought, they've had a noticeably higher rate of "fubar right out of the box" than .02%, I'll stick with my Pmags.
I'd like to know what mags you've had bad experiences with.
Lumping Cprods or some junk like that in with Real USGI mags isn't fair.
MarineSniper8541
01-30-09, 12:14
Justin is a straight up guy. He always takes care of us down here at ITI Texas. I have faith that his word on the status, reliability and quality of the PMAGs is gosphel.
Oh, and by the way. We put THOUSANDS of rounds through our rifles and we use PMAGs exclusively now. We have never seen one split like shown in the above photos. And we treat our weapons like road whores. They get rode hard and put away...well...clean....haha!
We used to shit can 3-4 USGI type mags per class maily due to bent feed lips. With PMAGs, its one less thing to worry about and not having to stop the firing line to shuttle a new mag out to a student between stages is a headache I don't miss. The students see how reliable these things are and buy them from us when they graduate. Well, when we have them in stock, that is!! Back orders suck! Ahhhem!, hey, Justin....wink, wink! Hehe.
The one we ran over that cracked (the second time we ran it over)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v193/EvilKev/Magpul%20PMAG%20test/Iraq-Range26May011.jpg
the one we dropped that cracked (on the 3rd drop)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v193/EvilKev/Magpul%20PMAG%20test/IMG_3528.jpg
Both mags where still functional at 26 rounds - but would no longer safely hold 30 when they where not in the mag well.
Anything manmade has potential for flaws.
I have over 60 USGI mags with Magpul and KAC followers in them, with Ranger plates, I simply don't use them very often since I have the PMAG's.
I know there are some concerns about lip spread - but I left all of mine loaded for nearly two years in Iraq w/o issue, and when I left in Oct, the new owners are still happy with them.
We used to shit can 3-4 USGI type mags per class maily due to bent feed lips.
That's the main upside to Pmags. Slightly bent feedlips can cause hit and miss malfs that are hard to diagnos. You can't really fix a dent in the rear cornter of a usgi mag either.
Triad Tactical
01-31-09, 09:07
KevinB, one more reason not to drive over my stuff.......
Triad Tactical
01-31-09, 09:47
Check my MATH:
Rough number of Pmags sold 1,000,000 x 2%=20,000
This would be a shockingly high number of failed mags IMHO, but I am not in the bigtime manufacturing business so it might be acceptable. If 2% of my ammo FTF, I would be pissed.
Now .02% As posted by the MP reps here, would be two percent of a percent right? Thats .0002% if my cyphering is correct.
1,000,000 x .0002% = 200 This would be a shockingly LOW number of failed mags IMHO.
What would be even more shocking, is that my little Band of Mag Breakers, caused 30-35% of the broken Pmags out of the first million that were produced.
Drake or Justin, can you check my math for me? I just cant believe that we ****ed up Pmags at a rate of like 5 trillion times faster than the rest of the world.
.02% of 1,000,000 is 200.
A .02% failure rate (or return rate) on a mass produced product would probably put you in the Guinness Book of World Records.
I have been experimenting with one thirty round OD Green Pmag since November. This mag has a 10/08 born-on date. I have just under 1000 rounds thru it. Using the same rifle, a Colt 6920. This mag is still in good shape with no cracks. I have not dropped it loaded or slammed it in on a closed bolt. I have only inserted it with an open bolt. Could these other problems be a result of slamming it against a closed bolt? I'm no technical operator, so I am just curious.
I will continue to keep running rounds through the same mag, but so far no issues whatsoever. If this cracking problem is more widespread, there are going to be some folks (especially on another forum) who won't believe it, and the unhappy ones who dumped their USGI mags for Pmags. Sort of like telling a kid there's no Santa Claus.
Regards,
OH58D
MarineSniper8541
01-31-09, 20:13
You know what guys, when we first started using PMAGs for our training classes, we were unaware of the fact that the PMAG is a true 30 round mag and therefore will actually accept 31 rounds.
We were having problems figuring out why that when a PMAG is fully loaded, it would not lock into a mag well on a closed bolt.
A call to Justin revealed that because the PMAG is a true 30 round mag...and will take 31 rounds....that it can be deceiving if you do not count the rounds being loaded. You think that the mag is full, therefore, like the USGI mag...it has 30 rounds when in fact there are actually 31 rounds in the mag.
The follower on a PMAG wont sink if it has 31 rounds in it. This might be the cause of the stress to the lips. Forcing the lips apart and possibly cracking the pictured area due to separation stress.
Just an idea for people to consider.
Make sure that you dont have 31 rounds loaded into the mag if you are attempting to slam it in on a closed bolt.
I'd be very interested in knowing if my thoery has any merit.
Ref 31rds in a PMAG,
We noticed this almost immediatly in our testing. Guys who have some training know that the top round with an even number loaded will be on the right. After chambering, removing the magazine will reveal the round to be on the left and then you know a round is chamberd.
I brought the issue up to Drake at Magpul. The extra room was nice, but just a little less, so 31rds could not fit would be better. It is my understanding that the latest changes, that include the floor plate that you can snap the cover on, will not be able to hold 31 rounds, just slightly less room so you know you have hit full capacity.
I don't think the cracks could be caused by hitting a closed bolt carrier, since the mag well would be supporting the sides of the magazine and not allow it to spread.
Triad Tactical
02-01-09, 08:47
Our SOP was for 28 rounds because we did not know what mags would be available in the future. They were told why to load 28 and shown the effects of loading 30-31. Also educated them about even/odd-right/left and showed them how to press check a mag for 28 rounds.
Jay Cunningham
02-01-09, 08:50
Our SOP was for 28 rounds because we did not know what mags would be available in the future. They were told why to load 28 and shown the effects of loading 30-31. Also educated them about even/odd-right/left and showed them how to press check a mag for 28 rounds.
Your procedure sounds GTG.
I have 30 Round FDE P/Mag with and without windows and I have fired clsoe to 2200 rounds with the P/Mags in my RRA Entry Tactical and have had not one FTF,FTE or any problems. I would give the rifles in Question a good once over.
it is hard to believe that that many mags were defective out of the 50. My 2 cents worth.
Justin Beard
02-02-09, 01:37
My post over on SH:
Steve,
Your math is correct and 200 bad ones sounds about right. That's why we're so mystified that you've gotten so many failures. :(
Unfortunately, statistics like these can be a little misleading. I actually calculate a defective rate of 0.025% of all vintages of PMAGs but this has only been kept track of since I took over Tech Support almost a year ago. This also does not include the mags we don't get returned as well as not taking into consideration mags with drop free problems (however this is almost always a receiver issue and not a magazine issue). Misfeeding PMAGs are even rarer and account for maybe one in twenty of the defective returns.
In any case bad PMAGs seem to be pretty rare, and thankfully too since I handle all warranty returns! :)
Justin Beard
Magpul Industries
Tech Support / Customer Service
Triad Tactical
02-02-09, 09:09
I have 30 Round FDE P/Mag with and without windows and I have fired clsoe to 2200 rounds with the P/Mags in my RRA Entry Tactical and have had not one FTF,FTE or any problems. I would give the rifles in Question a good once over.
it is hard to believe that that many mags were defective out of the 50. My 2 cents worth.
"Most of the rifles were M16a1 from DERMO. FA FCGs were removed and replaced with SA parts. Uppers were BM 16" M4gery with orig colt BGC and telescoping buttstock. These guns ran great, despite all the Wolf ammo we fed them. There was one RRA, and a factory BM at the start of class. Both the RRA and BM went Tango Uniform after the second or third class and were replaced with DERMO/BM rifles."
Must be a QC issue at Colt in the Early 1980s when all the rifles were made. Hard to beleive that so many of the defective guns found their way to us throught the DERMO program. Unless of course the issue is caused by the uppers. Its easy to look at the BM uppers and place blame there.
Triad Tactical
02-02-09, 09:12
My post over on SH:
Steve,
Your math is correct and 200 bad ones sounds about right. That's why we're so mystified that you've gotten so many failures. :(
Unfortunately, statistics like these can be a little misleading. I actually calculate a defective rate of 0.025% of all vintages of PMAGs but this has only been kept track of since I took over Tech Support almost a year ago. This also does not include the mags we don't get returned as well as not taking into consideration mags with drop free problems (however this is almost always a receiver issue and not a magazine issue). Misfeeding PMAGs are even rarer and account for maybe one in twenty of the defective returns.
In any case bad PMAGs seem to be pretty rare, and thankfully too since I handle all warranty returns! :)
Justin Beard
Magpul Industries
Tech Support / Customer Service
So the .025% figure most likely does not include our mags or all the mags returned under the recall/exchange?
Other than the badly cracked Pmags that were double feeding, we never had a stoppage that was Pmag related.
Justin Beard
02-02-09, 09:36
That is correct- before I got here there may or may not have been more or less defective returns. The 0.025% rate is what we've seen over approx. the last year and includes only broken and misfeeding PMAGs.
Again, I wouldn't consider any of the older mags bad but we are constantly improving both our design and production processes as we're always striving to make a good product better.
Justin Beard
Tech Support / Customer Service
Justin Beard
02-02-09, 09:42
Oh, regarding the rifles in question I would be much more concerned with the number of failures experienced if it was during use with a number of different rifle configurations. Being that all the rifles were the same it leads me to believe there is something unique with that batch or there may be some specific training technique causing the problems. I just really don't know...
Justin Beard
Tech Support / Customer Service
DrDrake, I know you can't or won't say to much more about this issue, but can you give us any further detail on what time period the molding process that corrected the cracking issue was last year ? Was it early 2008 or later in the year.
Just asking because it would be nice to know approx what date stamps we are looking at.
Thanks for any other info.
I'd like to know this too please. I only have a few Pmags, but with a lot of suppliers on back order, I'd like the ones I've got to last a little bit.
Justin Beard
02-02-09, 17:00
Again, older PMAGs should not be considered 'bad' and Steve's issues have been an isolated incident. We have done quite a number of enhancements both in design and production throughout the history of the PMAG, but if you want the very 'best' ones you'll want the ones made today. It's kinda like buying a car- the name and style may remain the same but next years model will be slightly improved over the current. ;)
Justin Beard
Magpul Industries
Tech Support / Customer Service
SecretAgentMan
02-02-09, 17:25
I'm not worried about it. I've got a mix of Magpul PMAGs and Bravo Company USGI magazines with Magpul followers. They're both good to go in my opinion.
Again, older PMAGs should not be considered 'bad' and Steve's issues have been an isolated incident. We have done quite a number of enhancements both in design and production throughout the history of the PMAG, but if you want the very 'best' ones you'll want the ones made today. It's kinda like buying a car- the name and style may remain the same but next years model will be slightly improved over the current. ;)
Justin Beard
Magpul Industries
Tech Support / Customer Service
I would agree. Any good manufacturer is always looking for ways to improve their product. So I guess that the Pmags I have on backorder will be some of the latest and the best when I finally get them. :cool:
Failure2Stop
02-02-09, 18:12
Other than the badly cracked Pmags that were double feeding, we never had a stoppage that was Pmag related.
Now that's funny!
It's kinda like saying, "Other than the gunshot to the head, the injuries were not fatal."
Now, I really like my PMags, and the only one of my 15 that doesn't work is the one I beat to death, but you just gotta enjoy the humor when it pops up.
Now that's funny!
It's kinda like saying, "Other than the gunshot to the head, the injuries were not fatal."
Now, I really like my PMags, and the only one of my 15 that doesn't work is the one I beat to death, but you just gotta enjoy the humor when it pops up.
My golf coach used to say things like that. "other than you hitting it out of bounds it was a good shot."
What date code are the newest version of the PMAG??? I just got 10 1/09 pmags but it doesn't seem to have the ability to put the cover on the bottom...
Justin Beard
02-03-09, 09:35
That feature will start to be phased in sometime this month as an inline change.
Justin Beard
Magpul Industries
Tech Support / Customer Service
That feature will start to be phased in sometime this month as an inline change.
Justin Beard
Magpul Industries
Tech Support / Customer Service
I think I'll wait on buying some until this change has happened. Thanks for the heads-up.
Magazines should be durable, but not abused...
A tactical tip regarding magazines from a BTDT dude:
1) Baby them. Treat your magazines as gently as you can within the realm of realistic training. Don't drop them fully loaded during a mag reload drill as that is very abusive and does not reflect reality. Don’t drop them on hard surfaces such as concrete and gravel as a matter of habit. If it is necessary to do this due to range restrictions then put down something to cushion the dropped magazine.
Mace
CarlosDJackal
02-03-09, 17:54
Any idea how many rounds went through the mags that cracked (at least on average)? The reason I ask is the fact that PMags are cracking is not as relevant if the average rounds are on par with the number of rounds will cause the aluminum mags to start failing.
But if the number is lower than the aluminum mags, then it doesn't sound like the PMags are worth it. Where as if the average was higher, then the PMags are a better deal.
Triad Tactical
02-03-09, 21:28
Well the first batch broke after the first class, which works out to about 166 rounds per mag. The second batch lasted 3-4 classes before we saw a bunch of failures. Third batch lasted slightly longer and had slightly lower failure rate.
Any idea how many rounds went through the mags that cracked (at least on average)? The reason I ask is the fact that PMags are cracking is not as relevant if the average rounds are on par with the number of rounds will cause the aluminum mags to start failing.
But if the number is lower than the aluminum mags, then it doesn't sound like the PMags are worth it. Where as if the average was higher, then the PMags are a better deal.
For function the PMag is rated for approx 70,000 rounds but we have had some running over 100,000 with no issues concerning wear.
That feature will start to be phased in sometime this month as an inline change.
Justin Beard
Magpul Industries
Tech Support / Customer Service
Is this feature a complete change of the mag body and floor, or is it just the floor?
And if it is just the Floor, will you be offering an upgrade program? :D
EDIT: I see it requires an new mag body.
Everything has it's limitations. That said, the PMags currently being built are the result of continual re evaluation of field testing that has come in over the last two years of combat operations in Iraq and Afghanistan. Not one month has gone by in which we have not revised something relating to the PMags design and/or production.
About 6 months ago we added a little step in the notch the snap cover to increase the glass fill in this exact area. First thing I noticed was all these Mags that had this issue are prior to this modification. We also have re engineered the polymer composite and now are even using a completely new mold revision called the PMag 30 M. All little steps that improve the product way past it’s original design.
Since it's introduction the PMag has changed the rules on what is expected from a Polymer magazine. This is credit to our engineers for not being ever satisfied with the final result.
Triad Tactical
02-05-09, 09:59
It's like the Hokey-Poky
"Since it's introduction the PMag has changed the rules on what is expected from a Polymer magazine."
That's what it's all about!!
I certainly think the bar has been raised from where it was 3 years ago.
Thanks for stopping by the thread Richard.
Sorry you got out bid on the USMC display case at the AmericanSnipers.org auction during SHOT Show. Maybe next year:-)
*IF YOU ARE NOT OLD ENOUGH TO KNOW THE WORDS TO THE SONG, DONT FREAKING COMMENT ON IT. OR SEND ME STUPID PM"s*
The dump pouch: Keeping mags off the deck and happy for years and years. :D
http://www.sgtlmj.com/dumppouch.jpg
It's like the Hokey-Poky
"Since it's introduction the PMag has changed the rules on what is expected from a Polymer magazine."
That's what it's all about!!
It's obviously tough to keep everyone happy. Some folks fail grasp and/or respect evolution of products. But hey, that's what the intraweb is for, right? Got to spread the word somewhere.
Triad Tactical
02-06-09, 10:23
It's obviously tough to keep everyone happy. Some folks fail grasp and/or respect evolution of products. But hey, that's what the intraweb is for, right? Got to spread the word somewhere.
Not sure why you quoted me when you posted this. Off all your customers, I hope that you understand that I grasp the idea of evolution. I acknowledge that MP has moved forward with the Pmags, and am happy for the improvements.
Those of you that have not really read the thread, go back and start at the first post. As the product evolved, the number of mags that failed went down, and the time it took them to fail went up. That is forward progress and I hope that the viewers here are able to pick up on that.
About the rifles. I looked at two of the rifles. With the upper off, I inserted both loaded and unloaded Pmags into the colt lowers. I could not find any way to make the bolt catch touch the mag at any point other than when the follower moved up. I don't see how that would cause an issue. If it was a problem with the rifles, why did the rate and frequency of failures go DOWN (which is a good thing) as the product was changed?
SIMPLYDYNAMIC
02-06-09, 18:46
Of our first 50 Pmags, 25 were broken after the first class of 500 rounds.
I have been reading for a while and Im just gonna ask:
50% failure rate in the first class? thats where my mind keeps going back too...
I have been running classes a long time and never seen that type of numbers...
Somethings not sounding right here...
I have been reading for a while and Im just gonna ask:
50% failure rate in the first class? thats where my mind keeps going back too...
I have been running classes a long time and never seen that type of numbers...
Somethings not sounding right here...
I still think it's got to be the result of dropping loaded mags onto a hard surface like concrete. The failure rate makes no sense otherwise.
Triad Tactical
02-06-09, 22:29
As stated earlier, the range is gravel.
If it was a problem with the rifles or the range, why did the rate and frequency of failures go DOWN as the product was changed? The rifles were the same, the range was the same, the SOPs were the same............
Triad Tactical
02-06-09, 22:30
I have been reading for a while and Im just gonna ask:
50% failure rate in the first class? thats where my mind keeps going back too...
I have been running classes a long time and never seen that type of numbers...
Somethings not sounding right here...
Travis,
Welcome to the mystery club. Now where did I park that van full of meddling kids??
Failure2Stop
02-07-09, 10:31
I still think it's got to be the result of dropping loaded mags onto a hard surface like concrete. The failure rate makes no sense otherwise.
I drop mags on gravel/concrete all the time with every kind of reputable mag- steel, aluminum and polymer- and though aluminium and steel mags are prone to feed-lip damage, they definately have nowhere near a 50% failure rate.
I have hurled fully filled, partially filled, and empty PMags into gravel, rocks, and concrete and have not had any fail other than the one that I literally beat to death. The one that I intentionally broke showed the crack at the same point- but I had to remove the follower, spring and floor plate and stomp on the mag tube to get it to crack.
I think that it is pretty obvious that there was some issue with the mags the Steve was using that is different than other PMags. Seems like it could be any of several different variables, of which I am nowhere near qualified to discuss intelligently. I see no indication that PMags (in general) are faulty or that there is a design or material flaw other than the batch that Steve was working from.
Heavy Metal
02-07-09, 11:20
I think I need to dispatch a shaman to Triad Tactical to chase out whatever PMAG hating spirits they may be harboring.
My theory is they built the range on an old Indian burial ground and I am sticking with it.
Patrick Aherne
02-07-09, 12:52
I think I need to dispatch a shaman to Triad Tactical to chase out whatever PMAG hating spirits they may be harboring.
My theory is they built the range on an old Indian burial ground and I am sticking with it.
Dude, no Indians, just cops. Cops can break anything, ask me how I know!
Outlander Systems
02-07-09, 12:57
"This is credit to our engineers for not being ever satisfied with the final result."
That statement embodies the spirit of ingenuity, competitiveness, and is the essense of capitalism based on honour.
My buddy who flushed his degree in marketing to become an 18X, told me years ago when he was still at University something along the lines of this:
Buddy: "You're not going to believe what I heard in class today"
The Landlord: "What's that"
Buddy: "We were "informed" that, and I'm not making this up, "Quality can be used as a competitive weapon"
The Landlord: "Well no (^$%ing $#it"
Buddy: "I informed the professor that someone should tell that to the companies making everything in China"
The Landlord: "Response?"
Buddy: "Dumbfounded look"
The Landlord: "Figures. Those marketing experts are pure geniuses. Shouldn't someone making things inherently strive to make the best product possible?"
Buddy: "You'd think. F'it, dude, buy American"
FWIW, the fact that Magpul's President and staff are on here, and willing to discuss, professionally, the merits of their products says a lot.
I've had some FTF issues with the first round of MPs that hit the market, but I blame the blaster, not the mags, since they've worked on other weapons since.
Also, FWIW, I have a (dons nomex in fear of flammage) Bushmaster M17S Bullpup, that, for some reason, will only eat P-Mags. Everything else, over the course of a few years, has problems seating. 2 out of three USGI mags won't seat properly, but the P-Mags work flawlessly everytime.
Everything's got it's limitations, and everything can fail. I think MP's done a stellar job with the P-Mags, and hope the demand isn't keeping them up burning the midnight oil.
Triad Tactical
02-07-09, 13:11
I see no indication that PMags (in general) are faulty or that there is a design or material flaw other than the batch that Steve was working from.
Not "the batch" at least three, maybe four different batches. I dont have a way to check to see if the first 50 that MP sent me had the same date as the 50 that originally came from Brownells. MP CS exchanged them so fast, I did not think to record the dates.
No black magic here.
Not "the batch" at least three, maybe four different batches. I dont have a way to check to see if the first 50 that MP sent me had the same date as the 50 that originally came from Brownells. MP CS exchanged them so fast, I did not think to record the dates.
No black magic here.
The really interesting thing is that no one and I mean no one had had issues like you. Granted there have been a few guys with some cracked PMAG's but no one at the rate you did. Makes me wonder what the deal is.
The reality is that we have to go off your word that what happened is what really happened. We are constantly improving and that's the bottom line.
I've got to add, you really should change your titles on the multiple forums you posted this on to "My few classes with the PMAG". It was over a year ago that all of this went down right? Why the sudden passion to get the word out?
Your obviously a crafty guy from you’re little snide comments, I just wonder what motivates you to bring all of this up over a year later? Come on Bro, did you not meet the founder/President of Magpul at SHOT? Why not bring up your concerns with the PMAG to him?
I'm sure you'll have a great rebuttal, have at it.
Outlander Systems
02-07-09, 16:56
Why the sudden passion to get the word out?
Dr. DRE(ke):
Business, bro. I didn't know Steve ran a store. Since Magpul's backed up on the P-Mags, Fusil-USA's mags are convenient alternative, at twice the price.
If I'm being an ass, call a spade a spade, but the good Doctor is indeed correct that the timing is quite fishy.
Good viral marketing though.
CarlosDJackal
02-07-09, 17:12
As someone who regularly breaks SW Applications on a dialy basis (it's my job) I can understand MagPul's frustrations. I get the same reaction from Developers I work with, some of whom swear I do my best to make their life a living hell.
But it's not that I go out of my way to figure out a way to break things. It's just that I tend to approach the use of a product as a "typical user". And in my experience in dealing with end-users of all experiences and backgrounds; I have found out that some of them can really come up with some very interesting way to use a particular product.
FWIW, I too have had issues with PMags, but in my case they were failing to lock the bolt open on the last round. But it had something to do with the combination of a Gas Piston Gun (LWRC), a suppressor (YHM SS Phantom), and the air tight body of the PMag. I went through quite a few hundred rounds in trying to determine the cause and a work around and passed the information onto Nick before he changed jobs (who was very helpful). The funny thing is, I did not experience the same issues with the 20-round PMags. Go figure!!
I also tried to post my findings on this forum but one of the mods was of the opinion that I was bashing MagPul and promptly locked the thread and would not allow me to add any additional information I did come up with (no matter how positive it was).
I do have a couple of questions for MagPul:
- How come these cracks seem to be located in pretty much the same spot? FWIW, I have seen this same failure in a Carbine Class (not to me) and I seem to remember someone from some cold-weather are posting about a similar issue (I don't remember which forum).
- Is the outward force exerted by the second round in the magazine onto the magazine walls that much more than all the other rounds? Or is there an inherent structural weakness with the body of the PMags at that very spot and if so, could the addition of stress holes (like they do in the leading and trailing edges of some small planes) help prevent those types of failures?
CAVEAT: Other than an end-user myself, I really don't have a dog in this fight. I still prefer to use Aluminum mags primarily because they don't get hung up in the mag pouches I use. But I also have about 2-dozen PMags, half of which is in my stash along with some other mags. I also have another dozen on back order (BTW, when do you guys expect to get caught up on those?). I also have about a two dozen Lancer mags half of which are also in my stash. All I care about is whether or not a magazine works in my rifles and how reliable they are.
Littlelebowski
02-07-09, 17:31
Looks like either a bad batch or more than likely a weird magwell on the rifles in which the mags were being used.
It is strange to start posting this all over the place a year afterwards. Did Magpul not stand behind their product with you or something, Triad Tactical?
RogerinTPA
02-07-09, 17:45
If this has been covered with Magpul over a year ago, and they have been righteously replacing the mags, this definitely questions one's motive. This has lack of character, written all over it, especially if using different forum names. That would lead one to believe the bad mags are happening to more than one person or organization in the same time frame. Smells pretty foul to me.
Triad Tactical/Steve; your being given 24hrs to come clean as to the dealing with magpul, the timeline, and your posting on other websites.
M4Carbine is not here to allow you attempt smear campaigns.
MarineSniper8541
02-07-09, 20:55
Maybe he is in Fusil USA's hip pocket?
He is a dealer for them and sells thier mags on his site?
Outlander Systems
02-07-09, 21:54
I didn't want to open up a hornet's nest with that little nugget of fact, but the truth has an air about it.
I'm not pointing fingers, or pointing blame, but after doing some googlin', the Doc is right: dude's been posting in other forums, at or around the same time, with the same information. It looks like a smear campaign. I'm not saying it is, but, again, the truth has an air about it.
I think this would be like Grant taking a steaming, heaping, dump on Fusil mags, simultaneously on a plethora of web-forums, whilst only carrying P-Mags.
Just sayin'. Somethin's rotten in Denmark.
Holy crap! I never even thought to follow the link in the guy's signature. I assumed from his post it would just be a LEO training school and since I'm not an LEO I had not interest. I followed it and guess what? It's an on-line store. Oddly, he carries AR mags, but NOT PMAGs. This definitely smells like an intentional smear campaign to me. Add that to the fact he has been posting this on multiple forums under different names to make it appear to be different occurrences and it isn't hard to figure out what this guy is up to. Don't take my word for it. Follow the link.
http://triadtactical.com/?mainURL=/store/category/fgjy/Spare_Magazines.html
Well....well...the plot thickens. This should be interesting.
I don't care if this guy turns out to be legit or not. He's an f-ing d-bag the way he's talking to people around here.
MarineSniper8541
02-08-09, 07:00
Hey, Travis....should we take care of this STA 2/2 style? Hehe.
Add that to the fact he has been posting this on multiple forums under different names to make it appear to be different occurrences
Is this something you have links to?
RogerinTPA
02-08-09, 09:00
I bet his main mission was to break the Pmags under "Normal use" when in fact he instructed students (or did himself) to load the mags under abnormal use. I bet HIS mags were on the same loading bench to do a side by side trash comparison and to tout their superiority over the Pmags. Speculation of course, but His integrity is in the toilet, especially when selling his competitive mags on his website. http://triadtactical.com/?mainURL=/store/category/fgjy/Spare_Magazines.html
Oh the irony.
Guy comes up to me at the pre-SHOT SHOW USSOC shooter @ Orange Country Sheriff's Dept Range.
Try to break this mag by stepping on it he says,
so I step on it and crush it.
I tell him he needs to rethink the metal mag business.
Guess who.
Jay Cunningham
02-08-09, 09:24
Moved this to General Discussion.
Here is a link to the discussion over at Glock talk and a few others. Some comments are his others not. Is making the net circuit though. Sad part is alot of people are condeming the PMAGs w/o reading and understanding the whole story. Bunch of fags, sorry.
http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=995269
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=881526
http://sigforum.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/630601935/m/7001017151/p/1
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=822896
I have been using P-Mags in Iraq for the last 2 years, exclusively. I even have 3 of the 05/07 recalled mags (which I have no way of sending back to Magpul). I have not had one crack in them. I'm also a lefty so when I change mags I strip them with my right hand and they usually hit the ground much harder than when they are dropped free.
This P-Mag bashing sounds ****ing absurd from where I'm sitting.
If you don't like them, don't buy them.
Heavy Metal
02-08-09, 10:59
I wonder is attempting to overfill with stripper clips and ramming the mag against a table edge would induce such a failure?
To add:
I have attended numerous carbine courses in the past year with Larry Vickers. I have neither experienced, witnessed nor heard Larry or the other students speak of such issues with the PMAGS. Larry speaks very highly of them. Larry is tuned-in enough to the shooting community to recognize a trend if one existed too.
I have fired thousands of rouds thru them in pratice and organized training and have experienced zero failures or malfunctions of any kind other than a couple of the bad mould pre-7-07 ones that were exactly as Magpul described and Magpul replaced. Since then, NADA........ZILCH.........ZERO!
Interesting.
To date, my pMags have worked without problem.
Triad Tactical/Steve; your being given 24hrs to come clean as to the dealing with magpul, the timeline, and your posting on other websites.
M4Carbine is not here to allow you attempt smear campaigns.
Countdown clock (http://www.timeanddate.com/counters/customcounter.html?month=2&day=8&year=2009&hour=19&min=05&sec=00&p0=419)
Triad Tactical
02-08-09, 12:20
The really interesting thing is that no one and I mean no one had had issues like you. Granted there have been a few guys with some cracked PMAG's but no one at the rate you did. Makes me wonder what the deal is.
The reality is that we have to go off your word that what happened is what really happened. We are constantly improving and that's the bottom line.
I've got to add, you really should change your titles on the multiple forums you posted this on to "My few classes with the PMAG". It was over a year ago that all of this went down right? Why the sudden passion to get the word out?
Your obviously a crafty guy from you’re little snide comments, I just wonder what motivates you to bring all of this up over a year later? Come on Bro, did you not meet the founder/President of Magpul at SHOT? Why not bring up your concerns with the PMAG to him?
I'm sure you'll have a great rebuttal, have at it.
Well I did not figure this would be coming from the Magpul staff. Turing this from a technical discussion to a personal attack was something I was expecting from others. I guess when you are the nail that sticks up, you get hammered down. The saying holds true as you can see from some of the posts above. I don’t think I have said anything bad about you or Magpul, I don’t have a reason to. The original posts did not include any opinion or criticism, just some information. Facts were put out, questions asked, pondered and answered. Hey but now that the flood gate is open, don’t anyone you miss the chance to pile on.
Drake, if you are questioning what I told you as fact, come on out and say it. Are you saying that the Pmags did not fail, or just that they did not fail in the manner frequency/way that I claim. Be clear about it, please. If you have issue with my claims, why has it taken so long for you to bring it up? . Here is the first line of your first post in this thread “First of all, thanks for the feed back both here on the forum and direct.” Why no comments about the veracity of my claims here?
When Nick was the (initial) CS rep dealing with me, I talked to him quite frequently. I sent him photos, answered question and even filled out a questionnaire that he sent me. Here are a few of his comments to me:
“Thank you for taking the time to send the photos. That’s great to see the training environment you’re working in. I know who to go to for some mud immersion tests ; ) “
“We should be able to send you the latest magazines in a little over a week. We need to run them and perform QC and performance checks before they get sent. We appreciate you bringing this issue to our attention and for your patience in working with us to help resolve this matter. We take this matter extremely seriously and resolution of this issue is of the utmost importance. If there is anything else I can do for you, please feel free to contact me.”
“I hope you received the batch of latest magazines. Give those ones a beating and see if anything shows up. We appreciate your assistance and willingness to work with us in resolving the issue you were experiencing.”
“Glad you were able to say hi to the guys at the show. We will send replacements out to you ASAP with return shipping as usual and inspect the bodies for engineering analysis. It seems like the cracking rate has lessened over previous magazines. With the number of rounds you have put downrange per magazine, do you feel this is true that they are performing better? Thank you again for helping us test and analyze this issue as we want to make sure the magazines are 100%. I will probably give you a call soon to make sure all our bases are covered. In the meantime, if there is anything else I can do for you please contact me.”
Sounds to me like a nice exchange of information going on.
As for multiple forums, let’s try using the word BOTH. It’s much less vague than multiple. I posted this here on this site, and one other location. I used the same title and the user name is almost the same in BOTH threads. No attempts at deception, just two different groups of people, so what’s the rub here Drake?
"My few classes with the PMAG" Way to minimize the little guy Drake, its BS. The title of the thread is MY YEAR WITH PMAGS for a reason. I wanted a long time to see how the issue panned out. To see how things changed over time, to see the changes and their effects. I wanted to have more than just a little info, more valid than a day or two spent on the range with 3-4 mags. I am almost certain that I would have been criticized for posting the information after the first incident of failure. I can see it now “You suck, you badmouth Pmags after dealing with a sample group of 2-3 mags after one trip to the range!” Well shame on me for trying to go the distance and track some meaningful numbers. Has MP gotten so big, that information generated by about 400 people, shooting 200k rounds over a period of a year is considered irrelevant?
I did meet Richard at SHOT 2006. Don’t you remember the FOUR of you stuffed into the back of that tiny rental? I did talk to Richard about the Pmag issues at 2008 SHOT last year in Vegas. He told me that they were working on the issues and that there had been some changes to the Pmags. I told him that I was getting great CS from Nick and that I would keep in touch. I came back from SHOT, continued using the mags and continued my comms with Nick. Talking with you guys at SHOT is a hit or miss thing. This year it was mostly miss, your booth was slammed all the time. I did not have time to wait in line; I guess I should have tried to make an appointment. Sure as hell, NOBODY from Magpul has reached out to me in a long time. "Hey, hows it going with the Pmas? Still using them, have the improvements help?"..........
If any posts come off as snide, I am sure you will find that they are directed at people that obvisouly did not read the thread before posting.
Triad Tactical
02-08-09, 12:25
Looks like either a bad batch or more than likely a weird magwell on the rifles in which the mags were being used.
It is strange to start posting this all over the place a year afterwards. Did Magpul not stand behind their product with you or something, Triad Tactical?
Reread my posts. They did stand behind the product, and the product improved. I have never claimed otherwise. A year long "study" takes a year.
Triad Tactical
02-08-09, 12:40
I don't care if this guy turns out to be legit or not. He's an f-ing d-bag the way he's talking to people around here.
Other than pointing people back to information that they may have missed in previous posts, which posts are you talking about, specifically? I just reread all my posts and fail to see where I treated someone poorly.
Playing a bit of catch-up here. Please correct me if I'm wrong:
One user reports substantial high-percentage failures of PMAGs.
The failures occur over several (four or five?) different lots/production runs of PMAGs.
Countless other posters and end-users report a far, far lower failure rate for the PMAGs.
Other posters and end-users continue to report that their PMAGs, in fact, survive and continue to function after tremendous purposeful abuse as well as sustained training/duty use.
The manufacturer reports substantially lower failure/return rate for the PMAGs; in fact, it would appear that the OP by himself constitutes a huge portion of all returned PMAGs.
Setting aside for the moment the issue of the OP being involved with a company that is actively promoting and selling a competing product ...
If one user (be it an individual, unit, department, etc.) is having such a disproportionate number of problems with a product which has otherwise proven to be reliable and durable, it would seem almost common sensical that there is something else wrong. Maybe it's the guns. Maybe it's the ammo. Maybe it's the gremlins who live under the rocks in your backstop. But if 50% of your magazines failed when no one else has seen that kind of failure rate, and you continued to have high percentages of your mags fail even after various generations of product improvement when no one else has seen that kind of failure rate, that is a clue.
To me, this sounds a lot like the shooter who complains his pistol shoots low-left all the time ... If it's a small offset, say an inch or two at 25yd, it very well may be that the sights need to be regulated. But when it's 12" at 7yd, it's not the gun ...
Well....well...the plot thickens. This should be interesting.
AGREED!!!![btw, i have 60-70 pmags---no cracks] only thing about broke is ME.
Triad Tactical
02-08-09, 12:52
I bet his main mission was to break the Pmags under "Normal use" when in fact he instructed students (or did himself) to load the mags under abnormal use. I bet HIS mags were on the same loading bench to do a side by side trash comparison and to tout their superiority over the Pmags.
Way off base. The mags that I used were pre-recall OD Pmags. I did not shoot a lot while instructing, but they worked just fine.
Triad Tactical
02-08-09, 13:01
Here is a link to the discussion over at Glock talk and a few others. Some comments are his others not. Is making the net circuit though. Sad part is alot of people are condeming the PMAGs w/o reading and understanding the whole story. Bunch of fags, sorry.
http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=995269
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=881526
http://sigforum.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/630601935/m/7001017151/p/1
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=822896
As a note, I posted on ONE other forum. Most forums don't allow hotlinking to thread in other forums and I bet those that did it, did not even read the whole thing.
And I have to agree, people should not post without reading and understanding the entire thread. When threads get this long, its easy to throw your .02 in at the end just to be cool and get your nuts off.
Triad Tactical
02-08-09, 13:04
I wonder is attempting to overfill with stripper clips and ramming the mag against a table edge would induce such a failure?
We did not use stripper clips to load the mags. I have only used them to load mags a few times, but I have heard mention that their improper use can damage ANY mag.
Playing a bit of catch-up here. Please correct me if I'm wrong:
One user reports substantial high-percentage failures of PMAGs.
The failures occur over several (four or five?) different lots/production runs of PMAGs.
Countless other posters and end-users report a far, far lower failure rate for the PMAGs.
Other posters and end-users continue to report that their PMAGs, in fact, survive and continue to function after tremendous purposeful abuse as well as sustained training/duty use.
The manufacturer reports substantially lower failure/return rate for the PMAGs; in fact, it would appear that the OP by himself constitutes a huge portion of all returned PMAGs.
Setting aside for the moment the issue of the OP being involved with a company that is actively promoting and selling a competing product ...
If one user (be it an individual, unit, department, etc.) is having such a disproportionate number of problems with a product which has otherwise proven to be reliable and durable, it would seem almost common sensical that there is something else wrong. Maybe it's the guns. Maybe it's the ammo. Maybe it's the gremlins who live under the rocks in your backstop. But if 50% of your magazines failed when no one else has seen that kind of failure rate, and you continued to have high percentages of your mags fail even after various generations of product improvement when no one else has seen that kind of failure rate, that is a clue.
To me, this sounds a lot like the shooter who complains his pistol shoots low-left all the time ... If it's a small offset, say an inch or two at 25yd, it very well may be that the sights need to be regulated. But when it's 12" at 7yd, it's not the gun ...
agree again,,,now todd g.,,,that's what i call "shucking it right on down to the cob"
Triad Tactical
02-08-09, 13:35
Playing a bit of catch-up here. Please correct me if I'm wrong:
If one user (be it an individual, unit, department, etc.) is having such a disproportionate number of problems with a product which has otherwise proven to be reliable and durable, it would seem almost common sensical that there is something else wrong. Maybe it's the guns. Maybe it's the ammo. Maybe it's the gremlins who live under the rocks in your backstop. But if 50% of your magazines failed when no one else has seen that kind of failure rate, and you continued to have high percentages of your mags fail even after various generations of product improvement when no one else has seen that kind of failure rate, that is a clue.
To me, this sounds a lot like the shooter who complains his pistol shoots low-left all the time ... If it's a small offset, say an inch or two at 25yd, it very well may be that the sights need to be regulated. But when it's 12" at 7yd, it's not the gun ...
Although there are far more positive posts about Pmags, there have been others that have posted about issues, some that exact same as mine. Keep in mind that I did not break one single Pmag, the students did. In addition, none of my personal Pmags have broken and other than some issues with 77gr bullets not feeding in a few early mags, they are all still GTG.
I have stated this several time in the thread already, but in case anyone missed it:
The rate and frequency of the Pmag failures went down as the changes were being made to them. The rifles, ammo, range surface and TTPs were the same. The only variables were the weather and the shooters. If all these things were the same, and the failures went down, does that not point to the mags??? If the mags remained the same, and there was a reduction in mag failure after a change in the rifles, that would indicate the rifles correct?
Littlelebowski
02-08-09, 13:43
From the SnipersHide thread:
"I got this info from a reliable instructor who owns a bunch, and runs carbine classes."
From the Glocktalk thread (IG's right, buncha homos :D): "Steve at the very cool Triad Tactical (their Fusil-USA mags are awesome by the way) ran 50 PMAGs through training, and about half of them cracked in the same spot." Emphasis on Fusil mags added by me.
Dupe post by Triad Tactical at SniperHide (http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=967146&page=1).
Sure is funny how someone selling mags that compete with the Pmags starts posting this all over the place a year after it happened and said individual just met the President of Magpul at SHOT Show and didn't have a damned word to say about this situation in person. It kinda makes ya think.....
Littlelebowski
02-08-09, 14:40
Can anyone here envision say...Travis and Chris of Magpul Dynamics testing Fusil mags for a year, having problems with them, apprising the company of the situation, going radio silent with the company about said situation, and then; a year later, beginning sales of competing mags on their website, and posting their negative experience with Fusil mags on at least two different, prominent gun forums? I can't. From my dealings with Magpul Dynamics, the guys are consumnate professionals and I look forward to training with them for the first time in May.
In this industry, reputations are made and destroyed on the internet forums. I have a feeling Triad Tactical knew exactly what he was doing.
Although there are far more positive posts about Pmags, there have been others that have posted about issues, some that exact same as mine.
No doubt. I never said PMAGs were made of Awesomite and were immune to failure. My point, which I think was fairly clear, was that you are the only person who seems to have reported such a substantial failure rate. In fact, I think I referred to "failure rate" or "percentage" about half a dozen times.
No one else is seeing 25% of their PMAGs cracking. Not military units that have tons of them. Not professional instructors (and "professional" students) who are using and abusing them regularly. Clue.
Keep in mind that I did not break one single Pmag, the students did.
This is a very important point. Please read on ...
I have stated this several time in the thread already, but in case anyone missed it:
The rate and frequency of the Pmag failures went down as the changes were being made to them. The rifles, ammo, range surface and TTPs were the same. The only variables were the weather and the shooters. If all these things were the same, and the failures went down, does that not point to the mags??? If the mags remained the same, and there was a reduction in mag failure after a change in the rifles, that would indicate the rifles correct?
Another thing that changed, according to your original post, was the skill level of the shooters. In particular, your failure rate dropped from 50% with the first batch to "20-25%" with the last batch; the last batch being fired during a refresher course. And even though you have had 20-50% of your PMAGs failing during these various training cycles, you yourself never broke one. I'm willing to bet the instructors were better by then, too, and might have explained loading or handling the mags in a better way. I'm sure you're not going to tell us you were reading verbatim from an identical script each time.
All of that points to some user-induced influence on the situation.
Also, at this point we have mostly guesstimate numbers. Exactly how many PMAGs from each batch went back to Magpul?
Triad Tactical
02-08-09, 16:07
Todd, thanks for your logical approach and possible solutions. Your Industry Professional tag stands true.
I fully understand that there were a bizarre number of issues with our mags.
The course was almost the same over the duration of the first full training cycle. Small changes were made after the first course, but they were more logistical in nature. We had to cut out some stuff to fit the two day format. The TTPs did not change. As explained, the majority of issues were in the first few months, before the refresher course began for the second cycle. During the first cycle, a “script” was used for all instruction and range drills. All the range work, which would affect the mags, was scripted in a binder that I dragged around the range with me. Each class saw the same presentation and shot the same drills, maybe not verbatim, but I could do it in my sleep. Consistency in training and the ability to document it make it easier to defend in court. Of course there were some small variations, but the drills on the line went from the front of the book to the back. Building block approach all along. As I am sure you are well aware, students always find ways to mess up a smooth program.
Smarter students………Something that I had not considered, thanks for bringing it up. The failure rate was already down by the end of the first cycle. I did not record the exact number, but all the mags in the first two lots, broken or not, went back to MP. It will be interesting to see the results as the mags are used during the 08-09 cycle. I will be IN the class in a few months and will be able to see the class/TTPs/mags from the other side of the firing line.
Triad Tactical
02-08-09, 16:12
I posted in one other place, so can we please stopped beating that horse. Drake, Richard and Justin all posted in the thread on Snipers Hide, none of them had an issue with it at the time. Heck they were even cross posting each other’s stuff.
This deal about it being a year later is getting a little old too. How in the hell do you take a long term look at something and have it done over the weekend. I know the internet has made us accustom to instant information, but let’s be realistic. Do you look at Consumer Reports to see how the newest SUV worked on during a two day test drive? NO, you look at the long term test results for the good stuff. Any blowhard can sit in the vehicle on the dealers’ lot and say, “Dang that’s nice”. That’s how cops and soldiers end up with crap gear sometimes (no not talking about Pmags or any other MP product). Your boss shoots one mag out of the latest cool gun that has been out for a day, or reads about something in a gun rag. BAMM!, your saddled with that POS Gen I Russian night vision for the next three fiscal years.
Yes, I have a company and I have never tried to hide that fact. Drake and Richard both know, or have known about it in the past. I have talked with MP in the past about being a dealer of their products. The only reason that I have not done it is one of space. They sell a lot of good products, and I don’t have the room to inventory it right now. If that changes anytime soon, I will still pony up and try to sip the cool-aid from the fountain. I don’t think they have a policy that they require their suppliers to only carry their products.
I am not just a vendor, I am a user. Because I sell one product, does that mean that I don’t get to comment on another? Does that mean that the Pmags that we used did not really break, did I make the whole thing up, smash the mags and fake the photos in a yearlong plot to trick the engineers at MP to improve their product. That’s absurd.
I comment on nylon gear, data books, and bipods all the time and have never been attacked like this. What makes some of the posts here pathetic is the fact that I have not criticized Magpul as a company. All I did was post some info about Pmags, which caused some discussion. I think I have only had good things to say about the CS and how the issue has been handled. The conversation was good to go until some became appalled at the fact that I sell another brand of mags. Yes it bogged down a little over the mathematical issues, but that is not really relevant in the long run. I did not run to the internet at the first sign of trouble and post a bunch of crap. I was even asked not to do so until the issue could be looked into. Now that I take the time to share some long term feedback, I get kicked in the nuts for doing it. I doubt that the information that I shared has had a big impact on sales at MP, they look to be plenty busy. They will continue to make good products that earn, and deserve a large market share. Good on the MP crew.
So in review:
Some of the mags we used broke.
Customer service from MP was great.
MP made changes to the mags.
LESS of the mags that we used broke.
That process was repeated.
Are the follow-on products better because of it, I think so.
That’s it, no conspiracy, black helicopters or smear campaign. That is unless the truth, as experienced by 400 shooters, over the period of a year is not welcome in public. If sharing this makes me a POS, douche-bag or liar, we have reached a sad state of affairs gentlemen.
Steve, somehow your failure rate is several orders of magnitude higher than anyone else has experienced..that's what's odd. If many others had the trouble you've had, magpul would be out of business by now, and contrary to that, their products are well thought of and they can't make enough to meet demand. You're a unique case for one reason or another.
I think I might as well thrown in my OPINION as well. I think it's an unusual failure rate for Steve's MP's. That's really the only thing that seems unusual.
Why or how do you think Steve will benefit from "smearing" MP? It's ludicrous to think that he can make millions by slamming MP and promoting Fusil, which he hasn't done here. Does anyone think he sales that many Fusils? And is there really anything he said that will prevent anyone here from using the MP's they already have or trying to grab more? I still am on both counts!
I'll also bet Steve couldn't gain financially if his agency did use Fusils. What are the chances of him being able to sale his own agency mags? About zero, maybe.
I think he posted something that went against the grain. MP doesn't need everyone here defending their honor. We do that by sending them our dollars already.
Lastly, yes I have met Steve. Several years ago and I haven't spoke or seen him for at least 4 years. I wouldn't say were beer drinking buds but I will say that he was always honest and forthright in our dealings and I never once had reason to question his integrity.
I still don't.
I've already posted this somewhere else but it seemed appropiate here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peer_review
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sokal_affair
For conclusions to have merit they must be observable, measurable and repeatable over broad time and modal domains as well contain a large sampling size.
The sampling size that is Steve's, pails in comparison to the global sampling size of the pmag thus far.
If we follow our common sense our response should be "Steve sorry it didn't work out for you, wish you luck the next go around" and then promptly get out our credit cards and by more of a proven product. YMMV
AGREED!!!![btw, i have 60-70 pmags---no cracks] only thing about broke is ME.
http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd7/rkba2da/smileys/rofl.gif
this HAS done got very interesting,,,, after several bud lights,, the only thing i'm gonna comment on ,,is that steve has conducted himself like a gentelman throughout the whole thread. WTF??? there is honorable men, and then there is--------i will comment that i lhave always liked todd g.s attitude, as he can cut right on down to the the nittty of the gritty. pretty good for someone north of the mason-dixon line. if he has a dumb look on his face---it's just a disguise!!!
this HAS done got very interesting,,,, after several bud lights,, the only thing i'm gonna comment on ,,is that steve has conducted himself like a gentelman throughout the whole thread. WTF??? there is honorable men, and then there is--------i will comment that i lhave always liked todd g.s attitude, as he can cut right on down to the the nittty of the gritty. pretty good for someone north of the mason-dixon line. if he has a dumb look on his face---it's just a disguise!!!
He fronts. :p
He fronts. :p
Don't hate me because I'm beautiful.
Littlelebowski
02-08-09, 19:36
My point (which I've made before in this thread) is that company's reputations are made and ruined in gun forums. I also publicly doubted that Magpul's training arm (Magpul Dynamics) would pull a similar stunt (complaining publicly about products 1 year after said incident on at least two prominent forums).
What I think happened is either Triad Tactical posted this little thread in hopes of being the all knowing fellow who reminds us all of the fallacy of gear that fails (no shit, especially mags!) or is a crafty fellow who posted this and is selling a competitor to Pmags on his site; a competitor that has little to no market penetration compared to Pmags.
Either way, I'm not buying it. My Pmags work, my military and contractor buddies that run Pmags in real world scenarios have no complaints and I don't like how Triad Tactical has gone about this. I note that until now, one industry professional and SME never mentioned his unfavorable impression of Fusil mags until now. So maybe what comes around, goes around. I also see some Astroturfing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astroturfing) going on here and on other sites specificaly for Fusil mags. Fusil, if you want to conduct a guerilla marketing campaign, skip rocks, kid. Man up and find an SME to "torture test" your mag versus a Pmag. May the best mag win.
Littlelebowski
02-08-09, 19:44
Oh the irony.
Guy comes up to me at the pre-SHOT SHOW USSOC shooter @ Orange Country Sheriff's Dept Range.
Try to break this mag by stepping on it he says,
so I step on it and crush it.
I tell him he needs to rethink the metal mag business.
Guess who.
What comes around, goes around.
randyman_ar
02-08-09, 20:00
After reading this thread I personally hope everyone cancels their orders.....at least until I get my 30 thats back ordered and a couple of the MOE hand guards in FDE.:D
Seriously, it has been very interesting and informative reading, but I for one didn't feel it was a smear job. Anything mass produced will have problems, Magpul's CS and commitment to quality are impressive to say the least. I am a little disappointed in where the thread seems to be heading though.
RogerinTPA
02-08-09, 20:04
My point (which I've made before in this thread) is that company's reputations are made and ruined in gun forums. I also publicly doubted that Magpul's training arm (Magpul Dynamics) would pull a similar stunt (complaining publicly about products 1 year after said incident on at least two prominent forums).
What I think happened is either Triad Tactical posted this little thread in hopes of being the all knowing fellow who reminds us all of the fallacy of gear that fails (no shit, especially mags!) or is a crafty fellow who posted this and is selling a competitor to Pmags on his site; a competitor that has little to no market penetration compared to Pmags.
Either way, I'm not buying it. My Pmags work, my military and contractor buddies that run Pmags in real world scenarios have no complaints and I don't like how Triad Tactical has gone about this. I note that until now, one industry professional and SME never mentioned his unfavorable impression of Fusil mags until now. So maybe what comes around, goes around. I also see some Astroturfing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astroturfing) going on here and on other sites specificaly for Fusil mags. Fusil, if you want to conduct a guerilla marketing campaign, skip rocks, kid. Man up and find an SME to "torture test" your mag versus a Pmag. May the best mag win.
Big +1. Excellent point Littlelebowski. Astroturfing is spot on and gives him plausible deniability under the guise of testing (unsound) and documentation (failure to record under each circumstance) of the results. He really needs to have some SMEs/Professional Military shooters conduct a torture test with various mag manufactures to see where the Fusil mag stands. A "Chart" may be in order after the dust clears.
Ok, this has turned for the worse. It doesn't reflect well on M4C, we would expect it to remain a civil discussion to assist with product development. Personal attacks and this behavior is out of line. It will remain locked for now.
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