View Full Version : Les Baer Carbine
Here is a follow up to the previous thread about the Les Baer carbines and the ass backwards castle nut. The first is my email to them and then the response.
Hello,
Recently I saw an ad in American Rifleman depicting your Les Baer .223 AR carbine. At first I thought my eyes were deceiving me until I looked closer and saw that the castle nut was installed backwards on the lower receiver extension as the large cut outs should be facing the rear of the weapon. I thought maybe it was an anomaly until I went to your website. The AR carbine on the home page likewise has the castle nut installed incorrectly. For a company that purports to make the "best 1911 and AR's on the planet" I would think that something like this wouldn't be overlooked. Thank you for your attention in this matter.
Respectfully,
Not an error! A decision Les made during extensive testing of
the rifle, before putting them into production. His call!
parishioner
01-29-09, 11:36
Yikes!
That must have been some extensive testing.
I went to a gun show this past weekend and all of the Oly's were the same way.
Here is a follow up to the previous thread about the Les Baer carbines and the ass backwards castle nut. The first is my email to them and then the response.
Hello,
Recently I saw an ad in American Rifleman depicting your Les Baer .223 AR carbine. At first I thought my eyes were deceiving me until I looked closer and saw that the castle nut was installed backwards on the lower receiver extension as the large cut outs should be facing the rear of the weapon. I thought maybe it was an anomaly until I went to your website. The AR carbine on the home page likewise has the castle nut installed incorrectly. For a company that purports to make the "best 1911 and AR's on the planet" I would think that something like this wouldn't be overlooked. Thank you for your attention in this matter.
Respectfully,
Not an error! A decision Les made during extensive testing of
the rifle, before putting them into production. His call!
So have you sent them a reply asking why he decided that? I would like to know what it was that made him decide to do such a thing. Is there more prominent staking?
I considered it for about 0.57 seconds. But, I know all too well what kind of response I will get. Just look at the first lame ass reply. All I can say is whoever buys one is a sucker.
So have you sent them a reply asking why he decided that? I would like to know what it was that made him decide to do such a thing. Is there more prominent staking?
MarshallDodge
01-29-09, 11:57
How do we know that Les didn't do something outside the box? Did he discover a better way to do something?
My Les Baer 1911's have a few tweaks and slight changes that are different than the way others do it and they run like champs.
I do think that I think his AR's are pricey.
This rifle is a joke. For the price, I'd at least expect something better than a Shotgun News special rail on the front...
Jay Cunningham
01-29-09, 12:04
How do we know that Les didn't do something outside the box? Did he discover a better way to do something?
I'm sure Les has it all figured out.
:rolleyes:
You are correct. How do we know? Especially since no one there has mentioned anything about this new found technique and made it public. Sorry, but that is a stupid statement. You can't stake the castle nut, or at least without it looking like ass. Sounds to me like that answer was pulled from someones ass.
Hmm.....maybe I'll try it here on some of our carbines and see what happens. After all staking the castle nut is no big deal and never loosen up.
How do we know that Les didn't do something outside the box? Did he discover a better way to do something?
My Les Baer 1911's have a few tweaks and slight changes that are different than the way others do it and they run like champs.
I do think that I think his AR's are pricey.
Wow. I am at a loss for words here. A mistake is one thing, even letting it slip though QC to get into some photos. But to intentionally install a part wrong? Wow, just wow.
Les should stick to building pistols. It is easy to build a higher quality rifle for less money.
Somehow I have a feeling that Les Baer Loctite their castle nuts.
Somehow I have a feeling that Les Baer Loctite their castle nuts.
Most likely.
rodinal220
01-29-09, 21:57
Baer AR15s are nothing special.He uses alot of the same parts everyone else is using.His 6.8SPC barrels are made by Mossberg,not Obermeyer,Lilja or Krieger,nothing special.Way overpriced for what you are getting.The AR15 industry is an incestious one.;)
How do we know that Les didn't do something outside the box? Did he discover a better way to do something?
He knows better than Colt who has been doing it for 50 years?
MarshallDodge
01-30-09, 11:53
My question was not made to doubt the vast amount of experience on this board or the correct assembly of an M4. All I was asking is whether or not he was doing something different and not necessarily backwards. It seems to me that nobody here has even handled this "M4" and yet are passing judgement.
He knows better than Colt who has been doing it for 50 years?
He does a much better job than Colt when it comes to 1911's. :p
My question was not made to doubt the vast amount of experience on this board or the correct assembly of an M4. All I was asking is whether or not he was doing something different and not necessarily backwards. It seems to me that nobody here has even handled this "M4" and yet are passing judgement.
Nobody here needs to handle it because they have enough experience to know what it consists of.
I'm waiting for you to give me an explanation of why the castle nut would need to be installed backwards.
He does a much better job than Colt when it comes to 1911's.
Again you are wrong. You are trying to compare a "match" gun to a USGI built gun. You cannot compare the two.
HAIL-CAESAR
01-30-09, 14:32
Les says he puts the castle nut on backwards to reduce it snagging on things.:rolleyes:
so does this mean that the nut is not staked? Just so it wont snag?
This seems to very ill-thought.
Les says he puts the castle nut on backwards to reduce it snagging on things.:rolleyes:
I would suggest Les Baer and Wilson stick with the platform they know.
HAIL-CAESAR
01-30-09, 14:50
so does this mean that the nut is not staked? Just so it wont snag?
This seems to very ill-thought.
Yep, that is what that means. Also Les makes EVERYTHING at his house, or so I was told by 2 members on the TOS. Barrels, uppers, rails, BCG's, springs, detents, pins, gastubes, flashhiders, receiver extensions, buffer, ect, ect. Only things Les doesn't make is the stock and trigger. They called Les and he confirmed it.:rolleyes:
FromMyColdDeadHand
01-30-09, 15:30
tun eltsac
I would have more respect for the idea if he had radiused the edges so that snags would come free, but you could still tighten it, now that would be kind of a nice touch.
Yet another example of the folly in thinking that assembling ARs is like assembling legos.
Indeed, anyone can do it. Pitifully few do it properly.
Meh, I had a Les Baer TRS once upon a time. When it went bang it went bang with great accuracy. I just didn't want to shoot hundreds of rounds through it to get it "broken in". I know I know hard fit and all that. It just wasn't my thing. 500+ rounds and still FTRB's so bad it wouldn't fire. Not my bag. I bought a Benelli M4 with the proceeds. Sold that and built my A4 clone after Obama became the POTUS.
I called Baer a couple of times. The impression I got was "We made it. NOTHING COULD EVER be wrong with it." I think they pulled that "He did it on purpose" thing out of their ass to cover a stupid mistake, or he really does think it "makes it better".
I tend to think that he thinks it makes it better as every Les Baer AR with a castle-nut, has it installed backwards. It is virtually impossible that this is a "mistake". I am curious what their reason is. E-mail sent...
HAIL-CAESAR
02-01-09, 04:50
Meh, I had a Les Baer TRS once upon a time. When it went bang it went bang with great accuracy. I just didn't want to shoot hundreds of rounds through it to get it "broken in". I know I know hard fit and all that. It just wasn't my thing. 500+ rounds and still FTRB's so bad it wouldn't fire. Not my bag. I bought a Benelli M4 with the proceeds. Sold that and built my A4 clone after Obama became the POTUS.
I called Baer a couple of times. The impression I got was "We made it. NOTHING COULD EVER be wrong with it." I think they pulled that "He did it on purpose" thing out of their ass to cover a stupid mistake, or he really does think it "makes it better".
I tend to think that he thinks it makes it better as every Les Baer AR with a castle-nut, has it installed backwards. It is virtually impossible that this is a "mistake". I am curious what their reason is. E-mail sent...
The LB AR is a mess, but you sold one of the best 1911's made.
If you read the first post in this thread I posted their response to me. Beyond that don't look for Les Baer to personally respond or justify why they do it different.
Meh, I had a Les Baer TRS once upon a time. When it went bang it went bang with great accuracy. I just didn't want to shoot hundreds of rounds through it to get it "broken in". I know I know hard fit and all that. It just wasn't my thing. 500+ rounds and still FTRB's so bad it wouldn't fire. Not my bag. I bought a Benelli M4 with the proceeds. Sold that and built my A4 clone after Obama became the POTUS.
I called Baer a couple of times. The impression I got was "We made it. NOTHING COULD EVER be wrong with it." I think they pulled that "He did it on purpose" thing out of their ass to cover a stupid mistake, or he really does think it "makes it better".
I tend to think that he thinks it makes it better as every Les Baer AR with a castle-nut, has it installed backwards. It is virtually impossible that this is a "mistake". I am curious what their reason is. E-mail sent...
The LB AR is a mess, but you sold one of the best 1911's made.
Perhapse, but I did not want a finicky range pistol. I wanted something dead-nuts reliable from the get-go. I understand that 1911's like a Les Baer may need over 1,000 rounds through them before they stop having issues like mine had, but I wasn't comfortable with that. Les Baer's pistols are like roulette. Some of them run from the word go, and some take forever to break in where you stop having FTRB's/Nothing happen when you pull the trigger because it's out of battery. Mine was one of the latter. I stopped counting at around round 600 and made my Dad a happy man. I basically gave it away to him for $1000--what I had left to pay on it. (MSRP @ $2500, hard-chrome TRS with VZ grips. It really is one of the most aesthetically pleasing weapons I have owned, as long as you didn't take it apart and look at the internal finish, which looked to me like it was left totally in the rough and then chromed over. I think I actually remember cutting myself on one of the burrs left when they drilled the hole through the frame for the slide-stop while taking it apart or cleaning it once. Nasty stuff!). He loves "range toys". He enjoys it much more than I ever could.:cool:
That experience left me appreciateing Les Baer's work when it comes to hard-fitting, but it's just not for me. If a pistol is going to be so tightly made it takes hundreds upon hundreds of rounds to break in, then the internal finish shouldn't look like it was completed by some 11-year old in a sweatshop with a dull file and an aging drill-press. True it won't affect function, but it was both the finest made weapon I have owned and the shoddiest, all at the same time. Total paradox. I am happier with my AR's. They just run and run and run and run. No sharp burrs to cut myself on either :)
Perhapse I expected too much for only having spent $2500. I have heard someone like me would be happier with a Wilson or Nighthawk, I just didn't want to cough up the money.
If you read the first post in this thread I posted their response to me. Beyond that don't look for Les Baer to personally respond or justify why they do it different.
All I saw was LB's staff confirming that it was intentional because it was "better" and someone else loosely stated that LB says it keeps it from snagging.
I was not satisfied with either answer as an explanation of "why"? If it really is solely for anti-snagging purposes, then I suggest the Kalifornia pistol-grips to LB. They are much less likely to snag than a regular grip due to their "streamlined" nature. :p
In the May '09 issue of American Rifleman there is a review of the Les Baer carbine. On page 63, the article states that the reason the castle nut is reversed is "an intentional change often requested by SWAT units, as it reduces the liklihood of cutting one's fingers during rapid stock deployment and gun handling."
WTF?
Any thoughts on this?
In the May '09 issue of American Rifleman there is a review of the Les Baer carbine. On page 63, the article states that the reason the castle nut is reversed is "an intentional change often requested by SWAT units, as it reduces the liklihood of cutting one's fingers during rapid stock deployment and gun handling."
WTF?
Any thoughts on this?
Maybe it's just me, but I personally don't go near my castle nut when I'm adjusting my stock.
Don't "SWAT units" often wear gloves?
jasonhgross
04-23-09, 09:03
Has anybody here ever sliced themselves up on a castle nut? I haven't.
On 1911s, if you order a $2500 pistol you have every right to have it run right. Hand fitting is no excuse for failures.
... the article states that the reason the castle nut is reversed is "an intentional change often requested by SWAT units, as it reduces the liklihood of cutting one's fingers during rapid stock deployment and gun handling."
WTF?
Any thoughts on this?
Yes, the LB AR is also issued to SWAT teams with a pair of plastic scissors and band-aids.
Also, I would like to learn the "rapid stock deployment" technique. Sounds high speed :rolleyes:
When I was green and didn't know anything about building AR's I discussed at length with Les about what I wanted and ended up with a super varmint 24" 1/8. This thing is a sledge hammer and is crazy accurate with 75-77gr. Even puts the Ranger 64gr leo stuff I get from time to time under moa.
Now understand, this has a 56mm zeiss and it's sole purpose is to drive around on moonlit nights, lights off and shoot every pig on site per request of the ranch biologist.
The weight keeps you on target and my kill ratio is 2-3 more than the bolt guys. I now know I paid too much for something I could have built but man, I like this gun and appreciate the time Les spent with me on it.
I have never been that excited about the police model but also have not heard of any function problems either?? Anyway, wanted to at least say something positive. We need every good firearm mfg. we can get and I was proud of him for moving out of the anti gun state and hope he gets the police rig up to speed.
Has ANYONE who has responded to this thread actually had any shooting experience with one of these rifles? And sorry, but "I don't need to to know they're crap" doesn't count. Just trying to be objective here.
Shooting it means what? It's not that they're crap per se. It's that they are way overpriced if you are looking for a good tactical rifle.
How about this. Email Les Baer and ask if they MPI/HP test their bolts and barrels, ask if they use commercial or MIL lower receiver extensions and all the other typical questions. See what they say.
Anyone who says that they reversed the castle nut due to "extensive testing" and then doesn't stake it properly doesn't deserve my money.
There is a saying in German that applies here. "Ich kann mich selber verarschen."
Has ANYONE who has responded to this thread actually had any shooting experience with one of these rifles? And sorry, but "I don't need to to know they're crap" doesn't count. Just trying to be objective here.
If paying $2000 for low-mid grade parts and a swanky name sounds like a good idea, the Les Baer Police Special may be for YOU!
Thomas M-4
04-23-09, 15:27
Shooting it means what? It's not that they're crap per se. It's that they are way overpriced if you are looking for a good tactical rifle.
How about this. Email Les Baer and ask if they MPI/HP test their bolts and barrels, ask if they use commercial or MIL lower receiver extensions and all the other typical questions. See what they say.
Anyone who says that they reversed the castle nut due to "extensive testing" and then doesn't stake it properly doesn't deserve my money.
There is a saying in German that applies here. "Ich kann mich selber verarschen."
Iraqgunz can you tell if the buffer tube is commercial or MIL with out taking the buttstock off ??
If that guy comes back to the range with that police special les baer m-4:rolleyes:
I want to be able to know so that I can post it also I will try to look at the barrel and see what is stamped on it . I doubt he will let me open it up but you never know.
Hell I will probable never see him up their again but never know.
The general rule of thumb is that the rear of the tube will have a slight cant to it and the edges are more squared than rounded. Another way is to try and slip a MILSPEC stock over it and if it won't go then it is commercial. Removing the stock is as simple as pulling the locking lever on the bottom all the way down and slide it to the rear.
Iraqgunz can you tell if the buffer tube is commercial or MIL with out taking the buttstock off ??
If that guy comes back to the range with that police special les baer m-4:rolleyes:
I want to be able to know so that I can post it also I will try to look at the barrel and see what is stamped on it . I doubt he will let me open it up but you never know.
Hell I will probable never see him up their again but never know.
SwatDawg15
04-24-09, 14:48
Iraqgunz can you tell if the buffer tube is commercial or MIL with out taking the buttstock off ??
If that guy comes back to the range with that police special les baer m-4:rolleyes:
I want to be able to know so that I can post it also I will try to look at the barrel and see what is stamped on it . I doubt he will let me open it up but you never know.
Hell I will probable never see him up their again but never know.
Re: barrel markings,
We all know that marking on a barrel don't mean anything with some company's. A lot of them only batch test barrels, but mark them all MP :rolleyes:
Not to mention the hundreds of barres marked 5.56 nato, and only being .223.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.