View Full Version : Buying a new hi-cap pistol for CC, any suggestions??
Hello everyone! My wife is buying my a new handgun for my birthday, so I can get just one more high capacity weapon in the family before the Obama-revolution begins... This new handgun is going to be used for everyday concealed carry, and I prefer it to be in 9mm, but it doesn't have to be...
We went to the local gun shop and looked around, and the ones that caught my eye were the:
Beretta M9 (a special USMC edition w/ a couple extras included - even though I was in the Army, lol, I like it for the gun, not because it's a USMC edition).
Magnum Research "Baby" Desert Eagle .40 S&W (I'm NOT a fan of the full size Desert Eagle, but this one caught my eye, and once I pulled the trigger, it had the best feeling trigger of almost any handgun I've ever felt).. I wish they had this one available in 9mm.
S&W M&P 9 - This was a "tactical" version with a threaded muzzle. There was 2 of these, both had threaded muzzles, but one had a bright green fiberoptic front sight, which I didn't care for, the other had regular front sight (white dot), both were "pro series" or "tac series" - or something "extra" written on the sides of them, IIRC.
Walther PPK - I've always wanted one of these for CCW - the original James Bond gun lol, I just think the .32 ACP round (If you really want Bond's version, his is a .32 or "7.65mm" ;)) is underpowered, as well as the .380 (also available), and barrel length is a bit short for my liking, magazine cap as well..).
Those are the handguns he had in stock that caught my interest... Another one I didn't mention, I have been wanting since they were first released, but I've not held one yet, I'd have to special order it: the Armalite AR24T. My number one thing in choosing a handgun is accuracy. I'm a total accuracy buff, even with a carry pistol... and the Armalite AR24's have been getting insane accuracy reports from what I've been reading. Some of you may be wondering why I am listing full sized combat pistols on here as a CCW weapon, well, this is because I like longer barrels, 5" is a plus. I know it makes it harder to conceal, but the added accuracy bonus from the longer sight radius and extra velocity is worth it to me. The dealer there kept trying to talk me into a Springfield XD-M there too, the new "match" version of the famed XD, he had it in all calibers and versions... I just completely hated the trigger.. and I thought that Glocks were evil! LOL..
Anyways, what do you guys think? I'm always open to the wisdom here... what do you think is the best choice for me? BTW, I also need to keep the price under $650 +/-.
woodandsteel
01-30-09, 02:41
Are you saying that the gunshop doesn't have have the Baby Eagle in 9mm? The way I read it I thought you were saying the baby Eagle wasn't made in 9mm, which it is. On their website it lists for $619.
I would suggest getting a Glock, but everyone says that.:D So, how about looking at the CZ USA line of pistols instead? I'm only suggesting that since you were looking at the Baby Eagle. The grip angle of the two guns look similar.
I have no real knowledge of the CZ line. All I know is that a guy I work with just sold his. He wishes he still had it. My wife is looking at the CZ 2075 Rami, which is their subcompact. Her interest in the Rami got me interested in their full sized line of 9 mms.
9mms work just fine for defense.
My stock answer to a CCW question is; Glock 19.
The Desert Eagles are kind of chunky for a CCW piece.
The M&P compacts are nice, and have really decent accuracy.
9mms work just fine for defense.
My stock answer to a CCW question is; Glock 19. . .
Just like tpd223 stated. The Glock 19 has 15 + 1 rounds of your favorite 9 x 19mm ammo at your disposal.
I would also consider the Heckler & Koch (HK) P2000 or P30 for CCW. Excellent function and ergonomics.
Robb Jensen
01-30-09, 07:19
I like the standard capacity Glock 19 (15 rounds per mag and 1 in the chamber). Some states have laws that restrict mag capacity to 10 rounds which are really just low-capacity. They're hard to conceal but if you want true high capacity mags Glock makes a 33 round magazine which fits all Glock 9mm pistols but was intended for the select fire Glock 18.
The Glock 19 doesn't have 'high capacity' mags (15 round capacity) it has standard capacity mags. When the pistol was designed the original mags were 15 rounders. Politicians felt that gun owners don't need more than 10 rounds per mag so they enacted laws forbidding mags with capacities over 10 rounds, thus you guessed it low-capacity magazines. So it's standard capacity or low capacity. Anything larger than the original mag capacity for the gun would be high capacity as in the Glock 33 round magazine.
The Dumb Gun Collector
01-30-09, 07:31
For me the "default" high-capacity handgun is the Glock 17. It is fairly lightweight, and really isn't much harder to conceal than the other high-capacity handguns. You really have to start looking at single stack handguns to really make a difference on that front. The Glock 17 is accurate, easy to use, and stone-cold bet your life reliable. Unfortunately, it is about as sexy as an insurance seminar. I personally prefer them to Glock 19s because I have seen more problems with the G19s.
Second would be the H&KP2000/P30. I actually "prefer" them to the Glock 17, but the price difference is absurd. While I personally may be obsessive enough about details and ergonomics to pony up the extra ducats for an H&K, that doesn't mean I think others necessarily need to.
The good news is there are TONS of great high-capacity handguns on the market. We really live in the golden age. When I was coming up in the 80s I think about 50% of the autoloaders on the market were pure crap. Now I thing the number is closer to 10%.
Don't confuse longer barrel to equal increased accuracy. Mechanically there would be should be no difference between a 3" barrel and a 5" barrel made exactly the same. Sight radius will make a bigger impact, but I find it just as easy to make hits on 3" plates at 25 yards with a G19 or 26 as I do with a G17.
I think the accuracy you are capable of is going to be more dependent on trigger characteristics than the differences between an M9 and a G17 or baby eagle.
Also, I hate to see people settle on something just because that's all their shop has in stock. If they only have something in .40, order the 9mm online or have them order it for you.
Finally, to stick with the topic of the thread and recommend a 9mm CCW, I'd personally go with a G19, HKP2000LEM, HK USPc 9 LEM or V1, M&P9 or 9c, in that order and depending on how you like the feel and trigger of each.
MarshallDodge
01-30-09, 09:49
I vote M&P. If you are going to carry it everyday then go as small as you can.
gtmtnbiker98
01-30-09, 09:50
As many others, when it is a CCW and the owner wants a 9mm then the G19 is my stock reply; however, don't overlook the M&P 9/9c when considering a CCW polymer chambered in 9mm.
When you mention a 5" for increased accuracy, remember the intended purpose, CCW (self defense) or did you mean as a duty weapon. The characteristics and demands are a little different between duty and concealed civilian carry. CCW encounters are pretty much less than 25' in distance and anything longer isn't really self-defense, rather than possibly offensive. I prefer a longer sight radius and increased muzzle velocity for my duty weapon but when it comes down to CCW, anything in the 3-4" range will suffice. Two entirely different modes of operation.
John_Wayne777
01-30-09, 10:32
Glock 17/19 or M&P 9mm would be my choice in your situation. If you like TDA guns, Sig P226 or S&W 5906 would also be good choices.
To echo the above recs... G19 or M&P compact. I personally like the G19.
Just a word on the CZ75 Raami, those are really the only CZ's that tend to have problems. I would avoid them like the plague as i do not find them to be ultra reliable like the rest of their handguns.
As far as recommendations for a concealed carry pistol my vote goes towards the M&P simply because its what i carry and shoot. I have yet to have a single issue with either of my pistols beyond the fact that im a crappy shot but i can hardly blame that on the pistol.
How big are you by the way? If you've got ham fist sized hands i would suggest you steer clear of the M&P compact as its a very small pistol.
Also, how are you planning on carrying? IWB, OWB, appendix, hip, etc, etc.
woodandsteel
01-30-09, 15:27
Just a word on the CZ75 Raami, those are really the only CZ's that tend to have problems. I would avoid them like the plague as i do not find them to be ultra reliable like the rest of their handguns.
As far as recommendations for a concealed carry pistol my vote goes towards the M&P simply because its what i carry and shoot. I have yet to have a single issue with either of my pistols beyond the fact that im a crappy shot but i can hardly blame that on the pistol.
How big are you by the way? If you've got ham fist sized hands i would suggest you steer clear of the M&P compact as its a very small pistol.
Also, how are you planning on carrying? IWB, OWB, appendix, hip, etc, etc.
I'm glad you mentioned that about the Raami. I will let my wife know about the problems. She is looking to replace an HK USPc as a CCW. She wants to stay with a .40 cal. I think that in a subcompact or compact design, a 9 mm would be better.
Jack_Stroker
01-30-09, 15:54
I'll chime in here since I have a Baby Eagle Compact and a Beretta 92FS. The ergonomics of both guns suit me very well. Both are a bit heavy for concealed carry but they are managable with a good holster and a strong belt. The 92FS is certainly the larger of the two and it can be a chore to carry. For carry purposes the Baby Eagle is going to be a little shorter but I think the grip is longer which in my opinion is a bigger problem than a long barrel and slide are. The one thing the Baby Eagle really has over the Beretta for carry purposes is flatness. The profile of the weapon is slim. The Beretta is too until you get to the grip which is fairly wide.
Beretta 92FS
What can I say? This was my first handgun purchase. It was my 21st birthday present to myself. I handled several firearms and liked the way it felt compared to everything else. I didn't know nearly as much about firearms as I do today. With that said I still find the Beretta to fit in the hand better than almost anything else excluding the 1911. However my tastes and requirements for a handgun have changed over the years. The Beretta still fits most of my preferences very well. I've got more rounds through it than I do any other single weapon. I'm quite comfortable with it and I shoot it very well. Though I'm more accurate with some of my other weapons. Recoil is slightly more pronounced on the Beretta 92FS than it is on the Baby Eagle. The Beretta 92FS is easy to direct load the chamber rather than racking the slide and topping off the magazine. Beretta designed the weapon to work this way. Magazines are plentiful, but you should only use the Beretta brand magazines which are vastly superior to the Checkmate and Mek Gar magazines out there. Promags are just junk and should be avoided. Supposedly Mek Gar actually manufactures the Beretta factory magazines but they differ greatly when compared to the Mek Gar branded magazines. The bodies, followers and base plates are all a little different. The only good thing about the Checkmate mags is they are about $10 to $15 at the gun shows.
I've had mine for 9 years and I've put just over 7,500 rounds through it. Never replaced any parts outside of the magazine springs and followers. I've had only a handful of failures to feed all of which were traced back to the ammunition itself being of poor quality. (Blazer Aluminium if I recall correctly.) The weapon will go for a long time in between cleanings and the finish is generally durable. Mine still looks pretty good given the usage it has seen as a daily carry piece and as my primary home defense gun. The controls are relatively intuitive but nothing special. The weapon just works. DA trigger pull sucks but SA trigger pull is pretty good. Not the cleanest breaking trigger but it doesn't take a whole lot of force to pull it and the trigger itself feels predictable. The reset is also fairly short. There is some trigger work that can be done but generally you can't change it too much from what I understand. Beretta also sells improved guide rods, extended mag releases and a few other things for them on their site. The safety is large and easy to manipulate. You have to be careful though as some holsters tend to deactivate the safety/decocking lever. Especially those with a thumb break. I don't fault this as a weapon design issue but rather this has been my experience with a couple of holsters. The slide is easy to manipulate and has a smooth feeling to it. Slide release is well placed and also works very smoothly. The lack of a beveled magazine well hurts it for reloading purposes but you can overcome this with training.
Field stripping the Beretta is one of the best things about it. It is very easy to do. I own Springfield XD's, 1911's, Glocks, the Baby Eagle, Desert Eagle, etc. The Beretta 92FS is the easiest to field strip out of all of those. Push the button and flip the lever. It comes apart just like that. Way easier than even the Glock in my opinion.
If you want to carry it I'd recommend the 92FS or M9 variants. If you want a home defense weapon, then the M9A1 or Vertec versions would be my choice. If you like the 92FS then you may like the 90-Two as well. It has some slight improvements you may find worth while. Though I do think it is an improvement, there are one or two things I don't like about it. The 90-Two is going to be closer to the price of the Baby Eagle as well. It will also have an accessory rail.
Baby Desert Eagle
These are neat weapons. Originally based off the CZ-75 patterned pistols using parts made by Tonfolio, which built CZ clones. The weapon under went some changes so that it could chamber IMI's .41AE cartridge. The .41AE to 9mm was about the same as .357 Magnum is to .38 Special. In essence what became the Jericho 941 was capable of firing both 9mm and .41AE. Unfortunately .41AE never took off and is an obsolete round. The Jericho 941 came with both 9mm and .41AE barrels and since the .41AE had a rebated rim like the .50AE does, the extractor worked for both rounds. The .41AE was pushed out of the market though the .41AE is typically more powerful than .40S&W but less powerful than 10mm. In any case since Magnum Research started importing them, they are now called Baby Eagles. The newer ones actually say "Baby Desert Eagle" on them. They essentially capitalize on the fame of the larger Desert Eagle and though they have triangular slides, they share nothing in common. The gas system and bolt of the Desert Eagle are more like the M16 family of rifles than a typical blowback design. The Baby Eagles are extremely accurate, probably more so than the Beretta and the Baby Eagle can handle +P ammunition better than the Beretta can. It is more difficult to field strip and clean. Magazines may be harder to come by and holsters will be more rare compared to the 92FS.
The ergonomics are quite excellent with two exceptions. The slide is rather small and thus gaining a positive grip on it to manipulate it is a little hard for me compared to slide manipulation on other weapons. The safety/decocker is very small and flat. It also feels quite stiff and doesn't "spring" up like the Beretta's does. The trigger pull on the Baby Eagle is nicer. The pull in DA mode is heavy, but not too bad. It also has a clean and crisp break to it. More so than the Beretta does. It will still never be a 1911 trigger, but I can't think of any DA/SA weapon with a nicer trigger. I don't care for the slide mounted safety on the Baby Eagle as they always feel really stiff to me and the small size of the controls makes it more difficult to operate the safety lever when compared to the 92FS. I'll give the Baby Eagle marks for its nicer trigger. Though I prefer the feel of the hammer on the 92FS as it makes for switching to a single action trigger pull on the first shot easier. Another thing I prefer about the Beretta is the open slide design which makes clearing a malfunction much easier. Well at least potentially. Both can be had with or without an accessory rail. The Beretta should have a slightly longer sight radius than the Baby Eagle does. Baby Eagle magazines may be a little harder to come by compared to 92FS magazines. The Beretta is going to be the cheaper of the two, but some of the 92FS variants are going to be higher priced than the Baby Eagle is. Finally the Baby Eagle is slightly more difficult to take apart and to clean than the Beretta 92FS is.
Both are excellent weapons and they've both been good for me. Handle them both and see which you prefer.
Just a word on the CZ75 Raami, those are really the only CZ's that tend to have problems. I would avoid them like the plague as i do not find them to be ultra reliable like the rest of their handguns.
As far as recommendations for a concealed carry pistol my vote goes towards the M&P simply because its what i carry and shoot. I have yet to have a single issue with either of my pistols beyond the fact that im a crappy shot but i can hardly blame that on the pistol.
How big are you by the way? If you've got ham fist sized hands i would suggest you steer clear of the M&P compact as its a very small pistol.
Also, how are you planning on carrying? IWB, OWB, appendix, hip, etc, etc.
I hear mixed things about the CZ 40P. Great accuracy but it is essentially a frankengun and the magazine issues seem to be pretty bad. I shot a friend of mines CZ 40P and while it was accurate, the quality wasn't there. The dots in the rear sight fell out on the first shot and it would have 3 or 4 failures to feed out of each magazine regardless of the ammunition used.
Littlelebowski
01-30-09, 16:19
Glock 19 or S&W M&P 9c.
Re: the G19, see a trend here?
woodandsteel
01-30-09, 16:45
Glock 19 or S&W M&P 9c.
Re: the G19, see a trend here?
What I see is that I need to get a Glock 19! I have the Glock 23, but I don't think that really counts. Kind of like running a Toyota in a NASCAR race.
I always felt my collection was missing something. Now I understand what it is.
Jack_Stroker
01-30-09, 17:39
What I see is that I need to get a Glock 19! I have the Glock 23, but I don't think that really counts. Kind of like running a Toyota in a NASCAR race.
I always felt my collection was missing something. Now I understand what it is.
The Glock 19 and 23 are the same physical size. The only difference is the caliber. On that note I'd prefer a .40S&W to 9mm. That is why I own a Glock 23 and I don't own a Glock 19.
RogerinTPA
01-30-09, 17:53
Another vote for the G19 or the M&P9c (mine has the CT laser grip), with the M&P having the edge for modular back straps. I found I can use the same concealment holster for the M&P9c on the full sized M&P9 and M&P40 (my favorite by the way), with button down shirts, and no printing. What ever you decide, handle and shoot your choices before you purchase. One may be more accurate and more comfortable than the other.
woodandsteel
01-30-09, 18:00
The Glock 19 and 23 are the same physical size. The only difference is the caliber. On that note I'd prefer a .40S&W to 9mm. That is why I own a Glock 23 and I don't own a Glock 19.
I know. :D Actually, the 23 isn't really mine. It's been issued to me. Otherwise I could just do the barrel conversion thing if I wanted a 9 mm.
But seriously, I am looking at getting a 19. I just can't justify the purchase of it yet. Ammo for my 23 is free, so there isn't a price of ammo issue associated with it. And since the 23 is my duty gun, I carry it off duty, for the simple fact it is what I always train with.
I have convinced a couple of people to get a Glock 19. They were new to the gun world and I wanted them to get something that they could economically shoot. i like getting non gun people interested in guns. It tends to put a few more voters into our column.
Also, I hate to see people settle on something just because that's all their shop has in stock. If they only have something in .40, order the 9mm online or have them order it for you.
A big +1 to the above. You wouldn't go into a clothing store and buy ugly or ill-fitting clothes just because that's all they had in stock.
Personally, my everyday gun is the M&P9. I simply find it more ergonomic than a Glock. After all, it had almost two decades of Glock success to build upon. But if a G19 works for you, it's hard to argue with that choice, either.
Business_Casual
01-30-09, 19:43
A big +1 to the above. You wouldn't go into a clothing store and buy ugly or ill-fitting clothes just because that's all they had in stock.
So that's where I've been going wrong!
I can't agree more on the G19. It is one of those designs where the sum is greater than the parts.
M_P
I went from a G26, to a G17, down to a G19. Between this and my M&P9, these are my two favorite carry guns.
ROCKET20_GINSU
01-30-09, 21:03
The most accurate compact pistol that I have ever fired was the Sig P229 in .40 S&W. I rented one once at an indoor range and it looked like it had not been cleaned in quite a while and the finish was well worn. I fired 3 rounds, single action at a standard IPSC/USPSA head A-Zone at 25 yds. All 3 round were touching right on the A...I was seriouesly impressed considering groups like these for me are not the norm. I think quite a bit of it was luck; however, sigs are very seriouesly accurate pistols!
That being said, my carry is a G19! And that is what I recommend. Reliable, functionally accurate, easy to shoot, many carry options and holsters, and great size to capacity ratio. I carry mine IWB in a Milt Sparks VMII w/ a G17 mag as a reload. With the new Crimson Trace laser grips...its going to be an even more seriouesly potent and practical pistol...
GlockCop525
12-24-09, 12:39
to follow up with what rocket says, the sigs are extremeley accurate out of the box..but thats definitley in thier 700-1000+ dollar price tag. I personally think it would come down to preference with either a g19 or M&P 9. glock is reliable out the ass but the M&P 9C I have found to be more accurate. basically the same gun except for the safeties. as for the caliber, id stick with 9mm...easier to bring back to a good sight picture in combat, more rounds, and easier to shoot with non-dominant hands. with good home defense ammo...9mm could easily provide enough power to do the job right
First off, you get more rounds in the mag with a 9mm than you do with other options, so your stated goal would indicate a 9mm.
I recommend the G19
Good compromise between size and capacity
Reliable
Low maintenance (also, highly corrosion resistant)
Easy to field strip and change out parts with only a punch
Endless choices in holsters and mag pouches
As to accuracy, MOST people will not shoot better than this pistol can perform, especially when the adrenalin is surging.
Good luck with your choice.
The S&W M&P PT Edition 9mm pistol from "G&R Tactical".
The RAMIs are not all bad, the 9's never really had reliability issues. The early RAMI 40's did but later production models got up to speed. I bought an early .40 & changed out the recoil springs & haven't had any issues. I wouldn't call the RAMI "hi cap" at 8+1 . . . but it is outstandingly concealable.
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d90/Macx919/SideGuardHolster.jpg
P2000SK, the "P30" of concealed carry.
another vote for the Glock 19 here. best pistol on the market imo, and the price aint to shabby
The most accurate compact pistol that I have ever fired was the Sig P229 in .40 S&W. I rented one once at an indoor range and it looked like it had not been cleaned in quite a while and the finish was well worn. I fired 3 rounds, single action at a standard IPSC/USPSA head A-Zone at 25 yds. All 3 round were touching right on the A...I was seriouesly impressed considering groups like these for me are not the norm. I think quite a bit of it was luck; however, sigs are very seriouesly accurate pistols!
That being said, my carry is a G19! And that is what I recommend. Reliable, functionally accurate, easy to shoot, many carry options and holsters, and great size to capacity ratio. I carry mine IWB in a Milt Sparks VMII w/ a G17 mag as a reload. With the new Crimson Trace laser grips...its going to be an even more seriouesly potent and practical pistol...
Most guns are quite accurate, but find one that fits and they seem even more accurate. Thats why I like SIGs and HKs so much
Glock 19 or 26 if you need thin one find an older SW 3913
Glock 19 or 26 if you need thin one find an older SW 3913 Sorry just saw the HI CAP part
LockenLoad
01-17-10, 22:30
nice year long post but I think the op left our already bought fellas
I like the standard capacity Glock 19 (15 rounds per mag and 1 in the chamber). Some states have laws that restrict mag capacity to 10 rounds which are really just low-capacity. They're hard to conceal but if you want true high capacity mags Glock makes a 33 round magazine which fits all Glock 9mm pistols but was intended for the select fire Glock 18.
The Glock 19 doesn't have 'high capacity' mags (15 round capacity) it has standard capacity mags. When the pistol was designed the original mags were 15 rounders. Politicians felt that gun owners don't need more than 10 rounds per mag so they enacted laws forbidding mags with capacities over 10 rounds, thus you guessed it low-capacity magazines. So it's standard capacity or low capacity. Anything larger than the original mag capacity for the gun would be high capacity as in the Glock 33 round magazine.
excellent!!! (thumbs up)
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