What accuracy is your 16" BCM Middy achieving?

[Mark21]

I have a RRA with Wylde chamber that used to get me 1-1.5" at a hundred yards (until round count passed 5,000). My LMT is getting 1.5-2.5".

Both are chrome-lined, and this accuracy is using red-dots, from prone position.

Was eyeing a BCM middy 1:7 and was wondering what real-world accuracy is everyone achieving ON AVERAGE, using commercial loads at 100 yards, 200 yards, etc.

[Failure2Stop]

I have one of the original BCM 16" Middies, free-floated, with a Vortex FH.
I haven't done any dedicated accuracy work with it, just informal prone grouping for expedient zeroing at 50 yards.
It was turning in about 2 MOA with M193 and M855, and about 1 MOA with Prvi 75 gr.

[YVK]

I got 1.6 MOA on the first outing, using 55 grain S&B. This was a zeroing session as well, and shooting was done at 50 yards with Aimpoint/magnifier combo.

Since then the barrel was cut to 14.5 and shot some more. I am getting about 1.25-1.30 MOA with the same ammo, again at 50 yards.

[rmecapn]

I can hit the torso of a man readily out to 200 meters with a red dot sight. That's all I require.

[Mark21]

I can hit the torso of a man readily out to 200 meters with a red dot sight. That's all I require.

I understand and appreciate your needs. BCM is ultra reliable, mil-spec, etc.

But for my own needs, I need to know it can do better than a 12" x 18" torso at 200 meters (which any Model 1 or Oly can do), esp if I'm training for improvement -- it would be good info to know that the shots that are 6" to the left versus a group 4" to the right of those are from some poor technique in moving, aiming, shooting, and so forth rather than just standard deviation of the bullets from the rifle itself.

Thanks for the other responses. Roughly 1-1.5" at 50, 2-3" at 100 are good data points. Anyone else?

[RogerinTPA]

I'm averaging 1.5 to 3 inch groups at 100 yard (supported bench), depending on the ammo being used on my saber defense middy.

[GONIF]

2.5 INCH AT 100 WITH IRONS and Fed XM193 . 1.5 to 1.75 with Black Hills 75 grain blue box . both from bench . all with 57 year old eyes and a bad attitude.;)

[BB01]

2-2.5 MOA @100 w/ M193 prone & bench. Irons, Free Floated.

Haven't tried anything over 55 gr.

[Harv]

It'll shoot better then you will... like just about most firearms...

[COJAM]

The AE Black box and Prvi were at 100 yds.When I started shooting everything was way left, it took 20 plus turns to the right with a Nikon Pro Staff BDC. 3x9. The Prvi was first then the AE , then the MK262.This was my first time using a scope on a AR.

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll208/cojam_photos/rangephotos007.jpghttp://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll208/cojam_photos/rangephotos003.jpg

[Mark21]

It'll shoot better then you will... like just about most firearms...

That's a gross over-generalization, esp without knowing the shooter.

[UVvis]

I can hit the torso of a man readily out to 200 meters with a red dot sight. That's all I require.


I understand and appreciate your needs. BCM is ultra reliable, mil-spec, etc.

But for my own needs, I need to know it can do better than a 12" x 18" torso at 200 meters (which any Model 1 or Oly can do), esp if I'm training for improvement -- it would be good info to know that the shots that are 6" to the left versus a group 4" to the right of those are from some poor technique in moving, aiming, shooting, and so forth rather than just standard deviation of the bullets from the rifle itself.

Thanks for the other responses. Roughly 1-1.5" at 50, 2-3" at 100 are good data points. Anyone else?

Then from a technical aspect, you are talking about precision, not accuracy. Rmecapn's response was a pure reference to accuracy. See this link for an explanation of accuracy versus precision. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accuracy_and_precision)

With an older BCM middy that I have with a Larue 9" rail and a 5x scope, I've been able to shoot some one ragged hole 10-20 round groups at 100 yards with handloaded 55gr Hornady Spire points, 69gr SMK, and 75gr Hornady ammunition. Black Hills 69 gr SMK and 75gr Hornady loadings also gave me good groupings, probably under 2" My standard ammo, Fed AE223 produces regular sub 2" groups at 100 yards. Some Prvi 55gr FMJ ammo I have will shoot maybe 12" groups at 100 yards if I'm lucky.

[ARin]

I have a RRA with Wylde chamber that used to get me 1-1.5" at a hundred yards (until round count passed 5,000). My LMT is getting 1.5-2.5".

Both are chrome-lined, and this accuracy is using red-dots, from prone position.

Was eyeing a BCM middy 1:7 and was wondering what real-world accuracy is everyone achieving ON AVERAGE, using commercial loads at 100 yards, 200 yards, etc.


the only way for you to accurately test the accuracy of your two bbls is to scope and bench them on good rests, with good ammo, on the same day, with a good shooter..

anything short of that, your results will not be conclusive.

[Mark21]

Then from a technical aspect, you are talking about precision, not accuracy. Rmecapn's response was a pure reference to accuracy. See this link for an explanation of accuracy versus precision. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accuracy_and_precision)



Thanks for the link -- never knew there was a difference in terminology. You are correct, I am asking about precision.

[USMC03]

I have a RRA with Wylde chamber that used to get me 1-1.5" at a hundred yards (until round count passed 5,000). My LMT is getting 1.5-2.5".

Both are chrome-lined, and this accuracy is using red-dots, from prone position.

Was eyeing a BCM middy 1:7 and was wondering what real-world accuracy is everyone achieving ON AVERAGE, using commercial loads at 100 yards, 200 yards, etc.


The following is what I wrote on another site when I was asked how the accuracy was of the BCM gun compared to another brand:

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Guys always ask me about accuracy......In short, my answer is: With AR's, I NEVER measure group size. I know from years of shooting what my group size should look like at a given distance with a given optic (ie. I know my group with iron sights is much larger than my groups with a Leupold MR/T on 5x at that same distance.....but I have shot enough that I know approximatley what my group should look like considering the distance, type of optic, type of ammo, etc.).

For accuracy or group size to mean anything or for the evaluation to be "apples to apples" comparison you need to shoot the both mid-length barrels side by side on the same day one right after the other.

BOTH guns need to be

-in the exact same configuration (stocks, triggers, handguards / railed forends, etc), using the same optic (at least 10x),

-the same ammo from the same lot, a couple different ammo loadings (because different barrels like different bullets),

-the same targets,

-the same lighting conditions, etc, etc, etc.

All of the things listed above can have an effect on accuracy testing (ammo, temp, lighting conditions, rifle configuration, different optics, etc, etc, etc)

I always see guys on the internet saying my "Brand X" AR15 is so much more accurate than my "Brand Z" AR15. I doubt that 99% of these guys have done an "apples to apples" comparison between two different brands.

For *me* trying to do accuracy testing with anything less than a 10x optic is a waste of time and I would prefer to have something around 16x if possible.

In order to get nice little groups you need to ensure that you are on the exact aiming point everytime. And the only way I can do that is with a 10x (or more) optic.

*For me*, if I can hit the small steel IPSC type targets consistanly out to 425 yards with an ACOG or MR/T 1.5-5x or simular scope, the barrel is more than accurate enough *for me* and the type of shooting that I do.

The Steel IPSC targets I'm refering to are about 18" - 24" top to bottom and 10" - 12" at the shoulders. Basically it's a scaled down IPSC or IDPA target...you know the cardboard targets you shoot at IDPA or IPSC matches...also a lot of instructors use them for classes (cardbaord colored on one side and white on the other).

Here's something that makes me laugh about accuracy discussions on the internet:

For the last few years, I often use a 1/9" twist RRA 16" mid-length barrel (4140 steel / chromed lined) for my run and gun rifle matches...just a factory mid-length barrel that has been lightended almost to govt' profile under the handguards. The carbine has a LaRue 9.0 and 3.5x TA11 ACOG on it.

I have seen more than a couple guys arguing about accuracy on the internet, then I have seen those same guys come to the run and gun rifle matches (targets from contact distance out to 425 yards, smaller than normal targets) and can't hit the broad side of a barn. These individuals end up with a score of less than 10% and never come back to another match. I've seen it happen a couple times with my own eyes.



The last match I shot with Stag Arms carbine with the RRA mid-lenth 1/9" 4140 steel / chrome lined barrel (July's match, just before I had shoulder surgery), I came in 2nd place with a score of 80% and I was using 2004 vintage XM193 ammo. Pics of the match and the gun I use can be seen in this thread:

https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=2475 (the Stag Arms gun with the FDE furniture and RRA mid-length barrel in it's newest configuration with the Magpul UBR is on page 3 ...... older pics of the same gun from a couple years ago can be seen on page 1)

Pics of targets down range can be seen in the thread below. Keep in mind that the targets on this stage are at a distance of 175 to 425 yards, there are large and small IPSC steel targets, skinny steel popper type targets, the small LaRue target, etc. *Keep in mind when looking at the pics of the targets that the pics were taken with a zoom lense*. Each target (usally 7 - 9 different targets) have to be engaged from each firing position (usually 6 - 8 different positions)....and each shooting position requires something different (ie. sometimes shooting through a port on the ground, sometimes shooting from the right or left side of the barricade, sometimes shooting over the top, etc).....you can see in the pics what I'm refering to in reference to shooting position:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=15738&highlight=TA11


I guess my point is, you can have the most accurate barrel in the world and it doesn't mean anything if the shooter is unable to use the barrel to it's full potential. And in that same breath, everyone on the internet will tell you that 1/9" 4140 steel barrels are junk and you can't hit the broad side of barn with them. Remember the old saying about "It's the singer, not the song"

To be honest, my RRA barrel that I've used in a bunch of different matches over the years (see pics in the links above) is probably more accurate than me.....especially when you consider I'm only using a 3.5x ACOG.


So in short, when guys ask me about accuracy of two different guns I don't like to answer unless I can give an "apples to apples" comparision and I NEVER go out and shoot for measured groups .........I guess my use for the AR platform is geared toward "practical accuracy", and I don't have a single AR that isn't able to hit the targets above at 425 yards with XM193 / Q3131A / Black Hills Blue Box 55 grain or simular ammo.


To anwer your question about accuracy between the Xxxxxx barrel and the Xxxxxx barrel ...... I don't think you, me, or a majority of shooters are going to be able to tell a difference in accuracy between the two barrels.

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S/F,
Jeff

[Failure2Stop]

The following is what I wrote on another site when I was asked how the accuracy was of the BCM gun compared to another brand:
[SNIP]


Jeff- awesome post.

[jstevens]

I shot the first two groups at 100 yards with mine yesterday, but with handloads not comml. ammo. I think one was .905 and the other was .755 for five shots. I used 25.3 RL15 with the 69 Sierra match bullet in LC brass. Scope was a 1.5-6x set at 6x of course. It also has about a 2.5 pound Jard trigger which helps as well.

[Buckeye67]

As a mere mortal, using iron sights, I've been getting 4"ish groups at 100yds with my BCM middie (non-free floated barrel & using M193). :o

[lumpia]

I was getting about 2 inch groups at 50 yards with my brand new BCM 16" middy using Federal xm193 and an EOTech 512. Is that any good?

[Eric]

As a mere mortal, using iron sights, I've been getting 4"ish groups at 100yds with my BCM middie (non-free floated barrel & using M193). :o Obviously you failed Internet Commando 101. You're not supposed to list actual results, but claim that you can shoot half MOA groups all day long while standing and using crap ammo. Geesh... ;)

[jstevens]

With military ammo and no magnification, 4 in. at 100 isn't that bad. Just for starters some good handloads or Black Hills match will probably cut it in half. If you use a pistol bullseye target and good iron sights, you should be capable of getting 1.5 in. groups at 100 with good ammo from a rock solid bench rest. There is a heck of a difference in ammo, my varmint barreled AR is a solid 1/2 in. rifle with match ammo, won't shoot better than 1.5- 2 in. with most military type ammo, or Rem 55 FMJ.