View Full Version : Rob_s chart!
miss debbie
02-04-09, 13:03
Why is there so much negativity on other gun boards to rob_s chart?
I thought it was very informative and detailed, if it wasn’t for the chart I would have ended up with an Olympic Arms. Before I used to get some of my info from gun store employees he told us that an AR rifles are the same some just go to different manufactures, now I know this to be BS. My first AR was an LMT, and then my husband bought us matching Noveske rifles since we couldn’t find Colt’s 6920 in stock locally. Thanks Rob for your chart and for letting me know about M4carbine.net.
In some cases they are butt hurt because no one wants to hear that they bought a POS. Of course their weapon is fine for the 1x a month that they put 100 rounds through it.
Why is there so much negativity on other gun boards to rob_s chart?
I thought it was very informative and detailed, if it wasn’t for the chart I would have ended up with an Olympic Arms. Before I used to get some of my info from gun store employees he told us that an AR rifles are the same some just go to different manufactures, now I know this to be BS. My first AR was an LMT, and then my husband bought us matching Noveske rifles since we couldn’t find Colt’s 6920 in stock locally. Thanks Rob for your chart and for letting me know about M4carbine.net.
thopkins22
02-04-09, 13:09
Because human beings generally prefer the subjective to the objective.
Because people don't like learning that they spent a thousand dollars on something dramatically inferior to something that costs 1-2 hundred dollars more(or depending where they bought it, that costs less.)
Or maybe it's just because they harbor hate for FL football teams and assume that nothing good could possibly come from the state.:p
Prior to having become familiar with Rob's Chart, I had acquired a Stag upper, stipped lower and parts, and built up what I thought was a fairly decent carbine. I even had those things staked that needed it and put several hundred rounds through it. It is a decent carbine.
As I became somewhat better educated in the art of carbinology, I saved up, waited on availability, and obtained a BCM middy and then an LMT lower. I am now quite comfortable in the knowledge that I have a carbine that is far better than I deserve.
Rather than having been offended at Rob's ranking of the Stag, I am apprectiative of the time he spent compiling the data from which I have learned quite a bit.
Thank you Rob.
Why is there so much negativity on other gun boards to rob_s chart?
Thanks Rob for your chart and for letting me know about M4carbine.net.
+1 Thanks from me as well...I bought an LMT on the recommendations of this chart and the information I found on M4carbine.net.
It's too easy for people to see where their pet weapon falls in the pecking order. When it's not near the top, in comparison to others, they FEEL slighted.
It's a pretty objective starting point for carbine comparison.
since we're talking about the chart... (oh btw, Thanks Rob for your detailed job! :) )
I've always heard that Bushy dont test every single barrel or bolt but only batch test them.
also I read on another board that who made the chart can't prove it....
now the question is: how do we know that Bushy only batch test their barrels and bolts?
I dont want to start a flame...I'm just curious :cool:
Frens, All you have to do is ask them. They'll freely admit it. At one time it was even on their FAQ, but no idea if it still is or not.
Patrick Aherne
02-04-09, 13:59
People attach their own identity and ego to their purchases. Further, many of these same folks believe that if they just buy something that looks like what the cool guys use, then they will be cool by association and possessed of the same magical skills, without having to put in all of the sacrifice and hard work.
To me, it's a frigging tool. Just like my unit's tires have to be Goodyear Eagles to meet the speed rating I might drive at, I expect my rifle will meet a certain standard because my life depends on it.
My rifle is ugly and beat up, but mechanically sound and maintained well. Just like my tires.
variablebinary
02-04-09, 14:00
People put too much stock in the chart. It makes chest thumbers and inferiority complexes at the same time.
Plus I dont think the chart is as "important" today as it was 6 months ago.
As an informational guide it's nice, and certainly educational, as a buyers guide not so much.
The value has been sucked out of the AR15 market overnight where even STAG's are in the $1200 range, which puts them at Colt prices 9 months ago. I just dont think any M4 type carbine is worth more than 1300 on a generous day, regardless of what the chart says
In this economy it would be smarter to get something afforable from a good company and worry less about trying to impress people on the internet. Use the extra cash to get spares, ammo, mags, food or just put it in your savings in case you get laid off
....and everything it stands for."
People put too much stock in the chart. It makes chest thumbers and inferiority complexes at the same time.
Plus I dont think the chart is as "important" today as it was 6 months ago.
As an informational guide it's nice, and certainly educational, as a buyers guide not so much.
The value has been sucked out of the AR15 market overnight where even STAG's are in the $1200 range, which puts them at Colt prices 9 months ago. I just dont think any M4 type carbine is worth more than 1300 on a generous day, regardless of what the chart says
In this economy it would be smarter to get something afforable from a good company and worry less about trying to impress people on the internet. Use the extra cash to get spares, ammo, mags, food or just put it in your savings in case you get laid off
????? :confused: :confused: :confused:
If the right tool cost 3x's as much I would pay for it for the peace of mind on duty. :confused: :confused:
People put too much stock in the chart. It makes chest thumbers and inferiority complexes at the same time.
Plus I dont think the chart is as "important" today as it was 6 months ago.
As an informational guide it's nice, and certainly educational, as a buyers guide not so much.
The value has been sucked out of the AR15 market overnight where even STAG's are in the $1200 range, which puts them at Colt prices 9 months ago. I just dont think any M4 type carbine is worth more than 1300 on a generous day, regardless of what the chart says
In this economy it would be smarter to get something afforable from a good company and worry less about trying to impress people on the internet. Use the extra cash to get spares, ammo, mags, food or just put it in your savings in case you get laid off
None of which changes the information in the Chart, or it's value.
If someone is stupid enough to spend their nest egg, kid's college fund, or emergency fund on an AR, regardless of the market, that's their issue.
If someone is stupid enough to spend their nest egg, kid's college fund, or emergency fund on an AR, regardless of the market, that's their issue.
Oh. You shoulda put that in the chart too. :eek:
BushmasterFanBoy
02-04-09, 14:21
Oh. You shoulda put that in the chart too. :eek:
And here I was, guiding my future based on castle-nut staking...:mad:
Rather than having been offended at Rob's ranking of the Stag, I am apprectiative of the time he spent compiling the data from which I have learned quite a bit.
Thank you Rob.
Same same, in regard to the Bushmaster I bought 3 years ago. I've always been a shooter, but it turns out that I didn't really know all that much about the platform itself. Talk about humbling and fascinating at the same time!
The Chart and the SMEs here helped me learn that there's all sorts of things that can be done to void or at least attenuate certain manufacturing deficiencies and turn it into something that can take a real beating and still perform. It's gonna take some $$$, but I'm single/unattached/no kids, so my money is all mine to throw away as I see fit.
At worst, my Bushy is a test-bed until I get it right or get something I think is right for me.
Why is there so much negativity on other gun boards to rob_s chart?
I thought it was very informative and detailed, if it wasn’t for the chart I would have ended up with an Olympic Arms. Before I used to get some of my info from gun store employees he told us that an AR rifles are the same some just go to different manufactures, now I know this to be BS. My first AR was an LMT, and then my husband bought us matching Noveske rifles since we couldn’t find Colt’s 6920 in stock locally. Thanks Rob for your chart and for letting me know about M4carbine.net.
The chart scares people. They bought a gun that is not as good as they thought it was and are butt hurt over hurt.
For whatever reason, adult males become married to their gear and cannot stand the thought that something they bought is not the best.
As the saying goes, "ignorance is bliss."
C4
since we're talking about the chart... (oh btw, Thanks Rob for your detailed job! :) )
I've always heard that Bushy dont test every single barrel or bolt but only batch test them.
also I read on another board that who made the chart can't prove it....
now the question is: how do we know that Bushy only batch test their barrels and bolts?
I dont want to start a flame...I'm just curious :cool:
For the longest time, BM stated on TOS that they MP'd EVERY barrel and bolt. Push came to shove one day and BM finally came out and admitted that they only batch test.
This is has been known fact for MANY years now.
C4
alvincullumyork
02-04-09, 18:12
First of all, thank you Rob for all of the information about what the chart actually means and the links attached to each of the section where great to.
But lately when i click to the link of the chart I only get the information and not the actual chart. Is this some setting on my computer or something else?
check out the tabs at the bottom of the page on the left side. There are two versions of the Chart there.
I appreciated the chart. I was skeptical at first, but after doing lots of reading, I realized the simple fact that - geez, these people know what they are talking about!
I looked at the chart.
I thought for a minute.
I punched some numbers.
I went to the gun store.
They had what I wanted!
$1250 later...................... my most prized possession! :D
The value has been sucked out of the AR15 market overnight where even STAG's are in the $1200 range, which puts them at Colt prices 9 months ago. I just dont think any M4 type carbine is worth more than 1300 on a generous day, regardless of what the chart says.
Well...maybe, but what does that have to do with the fact that the primary function of the chart is quality comparison brand for brand?
variablebinary
02-04-09, 22:20
Well...maybe, but what does that have to do with the fact that the primary function of the chart is quality comparison brand for brand?
Didnt I say it was great for informational purposes, or did you miss that
However when you walk into a store and a RRA is 1200 and a colt is $2000, and you just read that 40,000 people got laid off yesterday, and the Obama clock is ticking, being parked under the FSB becomes a lot less important.
.... and you just read that 40,000 people got laid off yesterday, and the Obama clock is ticking, being parked under the FSB becomes a lot less important.
Come on, can we keep political talk in political threads?
Relative comparisons of world events to AR features? Enough of that.
People put too much stock in the chart. It makes chest thumbers and inferiority complexes at the same time. Why, because of quality comparison you/they disagree with?
Plus I dont think the chart is as "important" today as it was 6 months ago. Why?
As an informational guide it's nice, and certainly educational, as a buyers guide not so much. How can it be "nice" for informational purposes, but at the same time be an ineffective buyer's guide? Harping on irrelevant prices in a spec chart?
The value has been sucked out of the AR15 market overnight where even STAG's are in the $1200 range, which puts them at Colt prices 9 months ago. I just dont think any M4 type carbine is worth more than 1300 on a generous day, regardless of what the chart says This statement makes absolutely no sense. You often get what you pay for in the end, regardless of recently spiking prices in the overall market.
In this economy it would be smarter to get something afforable from a good company and worry less about trying to impress people on the internet. Use the extra cash to get spares, ammo, mags, food or just put it in your savings in case you get laid off
If you are trying to say some might consider a somewhat lesser brand as opposed to paying $2K for a 6920 right now, especially a gun that won't likely see real hard use, that might be good advice. But, you can't blame me/us for getting a bit confused regarding your overall statements above.
The chart is an excellent tool. However, not all of us are looking for the same things, so I tend to move some brands further to the left than the chart does.
For example, I shoot 55gr M193, exclusively, so a 1x7 twist, for me, is not as desirable as a 1x9. And there are some things, such as "M4 feed ramps", that I couldn't give a rat's ass about.
The chart is an excellent tool. However, not all of us are looking for the same things, so I tend to move some brands further to the left than the chart does.
For example, I shoot 55gr M193, exclusively, so a 1x7 twist, for me, is not as desirable as a 1x9. And there are some things, such as "M4 feed ramps", that I couldn't give a rat's ass about.
Which is really the point. It's not about left vs. right as much as it is about finding what works for you.
At one time I rearranged the manufacturers alphabetically but it made the thing a bit of a mess.
Didnt I say it was great for informational purposes, or did you miss that
However when you walk into a store and a RRA is 1200 and a colt is $2000, and you just read that 40,000 people got laid off yesterday, and the Obama clock is ticking, being parked under the FSB becomes a lot less important.
There is a lot more of a difference between a RRA and Colt than just the FSB being parked.
C4
The chart is an excellent tool. However, not all of us are looking for the same things, so I tend to move some brands further to the left than the chart does.
For example, I shoot 55gr M193, exclusively, so a 1x7 twist, for me, is not as desirable as a 1x9. And there are some things, such as "M4 feed ramps", that I couldn't give a rat's ass about.
Fully understand. You do know that the 1/7 shoots the 55gr round just fine all day long right?
In the interest of making the AR as reliable as possible, M4 feed ramps are a must have.
C4
yelp the "CHART" I thought I had my Budget AR build, then I read the chart sold my J&T barrel ,got a Colt M4 barrel, well come to think of it everything on my M4 is Colt now except a Double star lower and a BCM BCG .Rob thanks for helping me spend my money on the right things.I still can't find a good price on a Colt lower ,so the DS will have to work for now
Fully understand. You do know that the 1/7 shoots the 55gr round just fine all day long right?
In the interest of making the AR as reliable as possible, M4 feed ramps are a must have.
C4
Grant, I remember reading threads here and on TOS that some are having problems with 55gr in 1x7 That the round just breaks apart before 100 yards from "to fast of a twist",I have not shot any 55gr at all,all I have bought was 62gr for my 1x7 ,That is what we used at FT Knox 62gr M855 .are they just talking Sh*t or could it be the ammo they are using????and + 1 on the feed ramps a must
Jay Cunningham
02-05-09, 09:07
Grant, I remember reading threads here and on TOS that some are having problems with 55gr in 1x7 That the round just breaks apart before 100 yards from "to fast of a twist",I have not shot any 55gr at all,all I have bought was 62gr for my 1x7 ,That is what we used at FT Knox 62gr M855 .are they just talking Sh*t or could it be the ammo they are using????and + 1 on the feed ramps a must
No, this problem comes from bullets much lighter than 55gr.
No, this problem comes from bullets much lighter than 55gr.
so anything under 55 gr will have problems in the 1x7 .Got it !!Thanks :DGod I am glad to be on this site some much Good info.:)
Jay Cunningham
02-05-09, 09:14
so anything under 55 gr will have problems in the 1x7 .Got it !!Thanks :DGod I am glad to be on this site some much Good info.:)
That's not what I said - I said that SOME bullets with a weight less than 55 gr and travel at very high velocity may shed their jacket and vaporize in the air - not ALL.
Some one on TOS ask for the chart & I provided a link to it.
A moderator replaced the link with this "ETA: We do not use that misrepresenting document"
No, this problem comes from bullets much lighter than 55gr.
you left out "SOME" :D I was a tanker you have to go slow for me Katar:)
Some one on TOS ask for the chart & I provided a link to it.
A moderator replaced the link with this "ETA: We do not use that misrepresenting document"
You can always IM or email that person the link. People are "afraid" of the chart because someone they don't like made it.
The fear is also born out of what i call the "luxury car complex."
Someone just went and bought a 60 thousand dollar luxury car and the next day they find out they could have gotten a car with better performance, durability and safety for the same price.
Most of those kinds of people will defend their purchase until the end of time. It doesnt matter what statistical evidence you provide showing that car B is better than their car A.
They've spent their hard earned money so naturally, car A has to be good enough or the very best.
The truth of the situation is that honestly, car A probably is good enough for most people but what the buyer is doing is covering up the fact that they didnt take the time to do adequate research to find the very best car in their price bracket. Its an ego thing. Humans cant stand being wrong or admitting they made mistakes.
The guys that go out and buy oly arms and admit that for their purposes, the rifle is "good enough" for their needs are the ones that dont fall victim to the "luxury car complex". These guys will admit that they bought an inferior weapon but again, for plinking 500 rounds a year at paper, its good enough.
Me personally, i say buy right or buy twice. Regardless of whether or not you are a HSLD operator or a casual plinker, you never know when you might need that tool to potentially defend your life or someone elses.
The Chart scares the Lilliputians. That alone is reason enough for it to be BANNED!!!
I like the car references.
It's just like buying a car to me. I take my WANTS, my NEEDS and what I can AFFORD and come up with something that fits for me.
Are the features on the chart desirable? hell yes.
Are they 100% absolutely necessary to run? no.
Do I want a car with armor? hell yes.
Can I afford it and do I need it? that's a different answer
I think there's a lot of stock in the chart as a reference when buying an off the shelf gun. If you want to be ultra picky - build a gun that fits your needs or do it over time to lessen the impact.
I've shot 77gr out of my 1:9 and gotten pretty good accuracy out to about 300 yards. (3-4 MOA). The 1:9 works better FOR ME because 55 and 62gr is the most abundant ammo that I can obtain easily.
Im not kidding myself when I pick components. They are what they are and what you pay is what you get.
With that said Im also a careful shopper. Even in this market I've purchased a LMT carrier and BCM bolt group for $140 to my door by just being a careful shopper and waiting for exactly what I want. In my lower everything but the FCG is DPMS and that doesn't bother me in the slightest.
I put my $$ where I think it matters, and leave room for upgrades later if I ever feel it needs it. I've never seen a DPMS bolt catch break FWIW.
Chrome lining was never a big deal to me for the bore, but I do prefer a chrome chamber.
So really, the chart to me is a reference point for a level of quality since I build from receiver up.
tiger seven
02-05-09, 13:20
What I find particularly interesting is that when The Chart was first making its way around the internet, on some forums it was welcomed, discussed intelligently, and sometimes even made a "sticky" for all members to see, read and benefit from as they choose. On other forums it created an instant shitstorm of confrontational rants, personal attacks, childish name-calling, defensive arguments based largely on ignorance, lies or pure fantasy, and a great deal of general idiocy. Inevitably at least person was banned and The Chart became verboten.
Which reaction occurred says a great deal about a particular forum and its members. On top of its intended purpose, it's also become the ultimate acid test for any forum involving AR-15s! :D
Derek
I like my weapon and it's configuration is not even listed on that chart. :D
I'm perfectly Ok with that too.
CarlosDJackal
02-05-09, 14:18
As the old saying goes, "Buy cheap, buy twice." (or something like that).
Smart people always buy the best piece of equipment they can afford. That's basically what that chart helps you do (if you are a smart buyer). It's like the Consumer Report for AR buyers.
Back when I can barely afford to shoot, I bought cheap stuff from online stores or at the Goon Show. In most cases I have since replaced those same parts with ones that are of better quality. If I could have been able to buy the good stuff in the first place, then I would not have a need for that bin full of crappy parts and accessories I now have.
One word...
DENIAL;)
The facts on the chart are too much for some folks. Instead of learning from it they take it personal.:rolleyes:
I like my weapon and it's configuration is not even listed on that chart. :D
I'm perfectly Ok with that too.
Neither is my BCM mid-length upper. I'll just have to live with that.
[QUOTE=SHIVAN;304370]I like my weapon and it's configuration is not even listed on that chart. :D[QUOTE]
Neither is my BCM mid-length upper. I'll just have to live with that.
Missing the point. The fact the brands are there are of no consequence. It's the specifications that are important. If you hand build your own rifle from scratch and it follows milspec, then you are set. Brands mean nothing. Rob was simply listing them so people don't have to break down rifle after rifle at the gun store for themselves.
Where a brand falls on the chart is up to the manufacture, not Rob.
Missing the point.
Sorry ... wasn't clearly enough facetious. :p
I do understand the function and purpose of the Chart, and I am more than satisfied that my BCM has the quality and features for which I bought it.
What I have learned from both the Chart and this forum helped me make the very informed decision to acquire the BCM ... and the LMT lower ... and all the other good things that I have been buying lately.
glockshooter
02-05-09, 15:07
All I see the CHART as is a reference to the spec from the TDP. The TDP is nothing more than the governments requirements for the parts and specs for the M4. Meeting or not meeting the spec may or may not mean you gun is the BEST or a POS.
If people would just use the CHART as a reference to make a .gov spec M4 then there would not be all the butt hurt people. The CHART is not what decides whether a AR is good or not, it is simply a list of M4s and there specs.
I am not saying that some of the specs on the chart aren't important and desirable, I am just saying that not all all necessary to have an excellent AR. We can debate what makes an M4 great all day, but I would bet that most people can't tell you actual difference in one barrel to the next. The TDP is a specific set of parts and pieces as required by .gov, but that in it self does not make a great AR.
Matt
Rob,
Do you ever find it frustrating when someone that 'likes' the chart still doesn't understand it's purpose?
its just a reference.. how it can be worth any debate at all is beyond me, unless we're debating the accuracy of the information provided
You can always IM or email that person the link. People are "afraid" of the chart because someone they don't like made it.
What is funny is that no Staff member on TOS (less Neil) would know one AR from another. :rolleyes:
C4
If you hand build your own rifle from scratch and it follows milspec, then you are set.
Well, to be honest, my gun doesn't follow the TDP very closely, but each part that differs I am 100% clear on why my choice was made. ;););)
1) The FCG pins are bigger then milspec'ed guns.
2) The barrel is not CMV steel nor 4150, nor any of the other chrome-moly whizbang chromelined steels. It's SS.
3) It does not have a fixed front sight, therefore it could not have one marked with an "F".
4) The gas block is taper pinned, but only has one.
I just don't want this thread to get TOO far down the road claiming that ONLY the milspec is acceptable. If you build a gun, and know WTF you are doing, and select parts that are not "spec'ed", you can end up with a weapon that is equal to, or superior, then the spec.
Just lending some perspective...
http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee192/SHIVAN308/Stuff/SHIVAN-VickersClass.jpg
http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee192/SHIVAN308/Stuff/SSDC-SHIVANShortDotCarbine-1.jpg
What is funny is that no Staff member on TOS (less Neil) would know one AR from another. :rolleyes:
IMHO one has to look no further than the top of the page at the main site sponsors to find all reason for objection.
The fact that some of them don't like me is just gravy. :D
Like Ed, I do not shoot a weapon that would line up well with the chart.
The key thing to know/realize when building an AR (which I recommend everyone do) is to buy quality components from companies that either have .Mil contracts or are suppliers to companies that have .Mil contracts. Why you ask? Because they have to follow a standard.
Where the chart really shows its value is to people that believe that all AR's are created equal and that if you pay over $799, you are just paying for the name.
I get these types in my shop all the time. I print the chart and show them where their gun is and where the mil-standard is (or as close as a Civy can get).
I then explain to them what is important and what is not. At about this point they are ready to sell their AR. :D I do not advise them to do this. Instead, I show them how to make their AR better (read more reliable).
C4
Sivan - Grant:
I agree. That's why I used "you are set". I meant it as, at least that you are set as far as ground level is concerned. Beyond is better. :cool: (what a terrible sentence....)
Shivan-
Post in this thread what you have, why you have it, and why its better. Looking for more input/education.
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=25471
Thanks.
Many thanks for the chart. New to shooting and thirsty for information the chart was truly informative. I've never read a bad review in a gun rag (no surprise, boat mags do the same). Advise from friends was the old chevy/ford argument. Also I could rarely find more than one brand in stock at local retailer. So comparison was difficult at best. In the end it was a colt for me, just because LMT's are nonexistent.
Thanks for all the contributors to the forum.
I'm a simple man and I understand the chart and it's meaning.
I've learned almost as much about people as I have M4's from this sight.
Anyway, Thanks to Rob, and everyone else who has freely shared there knowledge that required allot of time and money to aquire.
It's all here, you just have to be open to it.
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