View Full Version : Best 9mm
Looking at whats the most accurate or easy to shoot 9mm for most people out of these. Also what will work with +p ammo and not hurt the gun. Choices are BHighPower, HKP30L, Beretta 92. Thanks.
Why are those your only choices?
The H&K and Beretta are both fine with +p ammo, while most folks will agree that shooting +p in a HiPower will lead to damage much sooner.
I guess a glock or m&p would be ok as long as their just as accurate. Folks always talk about the accuracy of the 1st 3 listed and how they are like a well tuned 1911. pros and cons of each or links to a good review would be nice.
You definitely want a Glock.
it sounds like your looking for a hi-cap, but for the best 9mm i've ever shot, hands down the H&K P7. if you havnt already, i would seriously recomend looking into it.
Business_Casual
02-06-09, 07:56
it sounds like your looking for a hi-cap, but for the best 9mm i've ever shot, hands down the H&K P7. if you havnt already, i would seriously recomend looking into it.
Those pistols are usually very accurate.
To the OP - Why is accuracy your main requirement? There are plenty of target pistols available. Combat accuracy is a different kettle of fish, what is your intention?
M_P
The first 3 were really the main ones I was looking hard at. The HK p30l felt great nut the trigger is almost up agnist the grip and I have long fingers, don't know if the different grips will be enough to fill that void. the BHP to me by far feels the most compact. The Beretta is ok I guess as far as feel but I tried one yesterday and it shoot great. I had not even considered a Beretta until then. As far as accuracy goes I hate a gun I can't shoot well with, I can make noise with firecrackers. I figured all these are reliable or at least they should be. I just haven't been around many 9s at all.
respectfully, all the guns mentioned in this thread (beretta, glock, M&P, H&K. BHP, P7, etc.) are plenty accurate...if you aren't hitting what you want with it, you aren't doing YOUR job....
so find out what works best for you., and which platform YOU are most proficient with...
like striker fired? Glock, M&P and XD will all serve you well
DA/SA? Sig, Beretta, H&K.....
SA only? BHP, P7M8, even a 1911 in 9mm or a CZ-75 would all be good
once you determine what you want to shoot, its a question of other tangibles and ergonomics....
Personally, I like one constant trigger, and find I like Glocks best....
but, again, all those pistols are plenty accurate, have a good reputation for reliability....9 out of 10 times, if someone isn't hitting where they want, its the shooter not the gun (provided you are using the appropriate weapon for the situation....don't shoot a 200 yard target with a 9mm handgun ;) )
Looking at whats the most accurate or easy to shoot 9mm for most people out of these. Also what will work with +p ammo and not hurt the gun. Choices are BHighPower, HKP30L, Beretta 92. Thanks.
The only gun in your choice that is what I would consider very reliable is the HKP30.
I would look at the G19 and M&P as my first two choices for a 9mm HG.
C4
Looking at whats the most accurate or easy to shoot 9mm for most people out of these. Also what will work with +p ammo and not hurt the gun. Choices are BHighPower, HKP30L, Beretta 92. Thanks.
It would help us answer your question if we knew your intended use of this weapon, and also if we knew the extent of your experience with handguns in general.
For example, if you were to tell us that you have an H&K USP in .40 that you've been shooting weekly for several years and that you are quite satisfied with its controls and performance, and that the new 9mm gun would be used for home defense and training, but not for concealed carry. That kind of info is what I'm talking about.
crusader377
02-06-09, 13:18
I would go with either the CZ-75 or a CZ PO1. IMHO I think that CZ makes the one of the best 9mm pistols out there and I think it is the best value.
Of the options given, I would definitely take the HK.
dutch -- I don't think you will find that the inherent mechanical accuracy of any respected brand name handgun is worth worrying about.
You did the smart thing by trying a bunch of guns to see how each one worked in your hands. That's the best basis for choosing. Any of the three guns you listed originally (as well as the Glock and M&P) are well liked by some people and disliked by others. But any of the five will be reliable with proper maintenance. Unless you plan to put tens of thousands of rounds through this gun, I wouldn't worry about the durability issue, either.
FromMyColdDeadHand
02-06-09, 15:08
If this is just "I want a 9mm for general use and potential self defense", it is hard to go with anything but a Glock. I don't like Glocks, but if I could haveonly one gun it would probably be a Glock 9mm.
God knows I've drank the P7/PSP kool-aid, but that is a curiosity gun to get women to say "squeeze cock". I like Sigs and a P226 is tough to beat.
High Powers are nice, but mine bites me bad. Plus it just has small grips if your hands are larger.
If you are looking into gaming type stuff, it seems the M&P is the new thing. In the plastic-fantasics, I like the new XDM. Has enough purchase on the grip to get my bear paws on.
Never liked Berreta's, they just seem like engineering kluges.
Horses for courses, and Glocks for an Aw-shit gun.
My choices would be: G19, M&P, Sig, Hi-power, or P30
I've always turned to the good old Beretta M9 for when I needed a gun that just "has to" work. Not the best for CC tho.
Have tried all the guns you've mentioned, and carried several of them for CC. If that is your need, I would highly recommend you shoot at least 100 rounds through both a Glock 19 and M&P 9 side by side. . . . after that you'll know which should buy and carry/use. And if you like a sweet trigger, try to get one of Pistol Training.com's limited edition M&P's, sold through G&R Tactical (Grant's shop). . . . See Sticky at top of Handguns forum.
You definitely want a Glock.
Glock= Thumbs DOWN. I would have to say the S?W M/P or the H/K USP
Dutch - have you got a gun store nearby with a shooting range that rents guns? Might be a worthwhile investment to play with a few to learn what you like and don't like.
Very rich selection of pistols and opinions out there - shoot a few and then repost with your favorite.
Does your budget permit an adequate supply of spare mags, holster, etc?
Glocks are great pistols, very popular, reliable, etc; I had one and I couldn't shoot it for beans - operator not the pistol for sure, but I sold it because I don't like the grip angle, I didn't shoot it well and I did not like the way it felt in my hand - had I been able to spend some range time, I might have discovered that before I made the purchase.
To everyone who simply answered "(brand) sux" or "definitely get (brand)," how about some reasons or experiences?
Nobody can tell you what you're going to be the most accurate with. Handle them. Lots of them. When you're able to narrow your choices down a bit, find a range that rents and try them out. The right one will speak to you and you'll know what to buy. This is much more a personal thing than a group thing. I doubt if you'll find a modern handgun that is any less accurate than you are with it.
My choice in 9mm is the Sig P226, which I have two of, very closely followed by the P228, which I also have two of and finally the P225. I only have one of these though I do have a West German P6, which is also a P225 with a lousy DA trigger (though the SA on it is like buttah!). Sigs just fit my hand better than anything else I've tried.
Myself I have a CZ 75 and a Beretta 92 FS the 92 took a bit of getting used to but now it's my primary IDPA, USPSA, 3 gun Pistol.
you can't go wrong with a Beretta they can be slicked up very nicely. I like the SA/DA feature.
Just my humble opinion
I will agree with MMG, Sigs just fit my hand very well. My all time favorite would have to be a p228. I have a p226 in 357 sig and would like to purchase a 9mm version.
I would say go to your favorite local range, handle and shoot every 9mm pistol that you can and decide for yourself. Good luck.
RogerinTPA
02-06-09, 22:37
M&P9 or 9c followed closely by the G19 (the grip doesn't agree with my hand). The M&P's solve this with the modular back straps/palm swells and the accuracy and recoil management is outstanding for me. It doesn't have the usual high torque effect when firing the weapons and along with the low bore axis, it's a win win combination for me. As always, what ever you choose, rent all your selections first and see whats best for you.
Beat Trash
02-07-09, 05:47
I would say the Glock 19 and/or the M&P 9mm. Depends on which day you ask me as to which I would put first.
I prefer the size of the Glock 19, Colt Commander, ect, size guns as a happy medium. Small enough to conceal, large enough to shoot effectively.
The M&P falls on the larger end of this category, in my mind.
The Glock has a long track record, so not necessary to expound, other than to say I've been carrying one off duty for about 7 years. I trust it...
I have been carrying an issued M&P 9mm for about 3.5 years at work. Our agency has had about 1,200 of them on the street during this time. So far, I feel that this gun can stand right next to the Glock 9mm's as far as durability.
I prefer the trigger of the M&P slightly over the Glock, but can function with both.
I carried a DA/SA pistol for several years, while I can shoot one effectively, I can shoot the Glock/M&P trigger systems more effectively.
While I don't intentionally abuse my guns, both can take it during 12hours+ days, in bad weather, muggy, humid days, rain, ect, without worrying about the finish.
I shoot alot, and train as much as possible. I don't worry about wearing out either gun.
mike benedict
02-07-09, 06:58
I have a lot of pistols really more than a lot,
I like 1911s, SIGs, Glocks, Berettas and M&Ps and don't have a problem carrying any of them. I'm in and out of city county and Federal buildings daily so I have to leave the pistol in my truck often.
So I carry a Glock 19 the most. IMO it is the best carry pistol on the market.
It is reliable, functional easy to carry and it it gets stolen I can buy another one at the closest gun store.
When I head to the range I'm most likely to have one of my M&Ps
I think they are the finest service pistol on the market. If they made a Glock 19 sized 9mm I would carry it daily
Best, as long as you go with a proven design (of which many have been mentioned in this thread) is going to be best for you.
Suggest you find a range that allows you to rent guns and try out several to find what you like.
Beat Trash
02-07-09, 14:47
Best, as long as you go with a proven design (of which many have been mentioned in this thread) is going to be best for you.
Suggest you find a range that allows you to rent guns and try out several to find what you like.
Good advice. So long as you stay with a proven design, asking which brand is "Best" is akin to asking which best, "Red Heads" or "Blonds".
Of course, many would answer, "Get Both!"
Good advice. So long as you stay with a proven design, asking which brand is "Best" is akin to asking which best, "Red Heads" or "Blonds".
Of course, many would answer, "Get Both!"
Beat Trash: I like the way you think:D
i purchased my 1st handgun less than a year ago. my goal was a reliable, comfortable carry piece. i cruised the forums, saw a few names pop up consistantly and went to the range to try them out. i ended up with a glock 19. i think if you ask owners of this pistol if they are satisfied with its accuracy and reliability, you will find that just about everyone with prolonged experience is satisfied. i am one of the few that wasnt. i went to a 2 day class and after 800 rds i realised that it just wasnt comfortable for me to shoot. it is likely that anyone that shoots that much in that short of a period will not be comfortable with any pistol however i tried something different and have been quite happy
the best idea has already been stated. decide on your objectives and then narrow your field to a handful that meet the actual criteria of your goals. then shoot each side by side. take your time, take note of the feel, accuracy etc relative to each other. then select from there. personally, i ended up with a m&p 9c. i carry it daily. it is more accurate than me and more than accurate for its purpose. you need to evaluate what works best for you
Yeah no kidding..
For me it would be the M&P in 9mm. Great ergo's, great customer service. The P30 is a great pistol. But HK's customer service is not good at all and parts, even mags. Also a lot of people have issues with the HK slide release hitting their thumbs and failing to lock the slide open. You can't go wrong with the Glock of course but I'm tired of the blocky grip. I have never ever liked the Beretta's. Big and clunky as far as I'm concerned with oddly placed controls and a lousy first shot DA trigger. Plus it's just outdated compared to newer pistol.
To everyone who simply answered "(brand) sux" or "definitely get (brand)," how about some reasons or experiences?
I would have to say the Glock 17.
They are utterly reliable. Mine has never failed to fire after after several thousand rounds. It can take a thorough beating and still keep running.
The aftermarket is outstanding, if there is something you don't like about the gun you can either modify the existing part or buy an aftermarket replacement. It's ease of modification grants the user the ability to tailor the gun to his own needs/wants. Unhappy with the size of the grip? Get a grip reduction done. Not grippy enough? Stipple the grips or have them modified for another grippy texture. Want better accuracy? Find a good match barrel from one of the many companies that offer them. Not pleased with the trigger? Try another connector/trigger spring combo. No external safety? There is a company that will put a thumb safety on the gun. Hell, it can even be made full-auto with a kit like the one from F-SSG (this goes for any Glock, also NFA laws apply obviously).
It does not excel at concealed carry because of it's bulky frame but it can be concealed. I've CC'd mine on several occasions. It is outstanding as a duty weapon. It will handle +p and +p+ with no problems.
It is arguably the best production 9mm ever made, perhaps the best production handgun made period (I think the Colt 1911 is, but that's my opinion).
dirksterg30
02-09-09, 10:29
For me, the easiest-shooting 9mm that I have tried are the M&Ps (I own a 9c and 9 full-sized). I have tried the Glock 19, Beretta 92, Sig P225/226, and CZ P-01.
Here are my impressions:
Glock 19 - very reliable, but the trigger & grip angle do not work for me; also don't care for the stock plastic sights
Beretta 92 - grip was too wide for me, I don't like slide-mounted safeties, DA/SA with heavy DA trigger pull
Sig P225 (actually it was a P6) - large pistol for a single-stack, DA trigger very heavy, didn't like location of decocker/slide release
Sig P226 - grip a little large for me, controls in bad location for me, DA trigger very heavy
CZ P-01 - this was my carry gun for a few years; grip/ergonomics excellent for me, DA trigger somewhat heavy, but an easy gun for me to shoot well
M&P 9/9c - excellent ergonomics for me, consistent DAO trigger (I shoot stock M&P triggers far better than any DA/SA, or any other DAO pistol I have tried); my 9c has replaced my P-01 as a carry gun, and has been 100% reliable through 600+ rounds; the 9 full-size will become a HD gun when it is fully broken in (no failures through 150 rounds so far).
I spoke for the Beretta 92FS/M9 mainly for it's accuracy and dependability. It's not the best choice for a CCW, but for a duty weapon or carry weapon, nothing shoots like a well broken in Beretta.
I also like 1911's for the accuracy, pointability, and it fits everyone's hand... I just don't like it as a carry piece because I don't like carrying cocked and locked with safety on - I prefer SA/DA carry with safety off, hammer down, chambered, for speed and safety - although training with a safetied SA 1911 can be lightning fast as well.
For the hundreds of polymer striker fired pistols, all are good, dependable guns, although I am partial to the M&P9 and SA XD9-M. Glocks are very dependable, I've just not ever been very accurate with them, no matter how much I practice. I find the triggers horrible, as well as the grip angle and the "blocky" feel.
Choose what you can shoot best, and what feels best to you. I'll stick to my all-steel guns, but for CCW carry, my Walther PPK has always been reliable too.
The only best 9mm auto is the one that fits your hand best and goes bang every time you pull the trigger.
The Dumb Gun Collector
02-09-09, 17:54
The P30 (std) would be my preference from the choices you have listed.
IMHO, the two best service pistol 9mms out there are the Glock 17 and the H&K P2000/P30.
When those who carry everyday in the box want anything except a 9. Why are you even thinking of one? It has been said if it ant a 40 or better it ant s--t, I like the idea io not having to empty half a mag to make the bad guy stop what he is doing.
Look at any brand that fits your hand, the finger must reach the triger, and the way guns are made you can get a 40 in the same size package as a 9, and for around the same price.
In this case I would have to say that bigger is better.
SloaneRanger
02-10-09, 18:05
When those who carry everyday in the box want anything except a 9. Why are you even thinking of one? It has been said if it ant a 40 or better it ant s--t
In this case I would have to say that bigger is better.
This 9mm vs 40 S&W vs 45acp etc tends to just go 'roundy-round' with no real definitive answer as to which is the absolute "best". Many on here are quite comfortable with a 9mm for carry and SD since they are not restricted to the use of only FMJ ammo ....
After researching the issue myself I'd probably get a H&K P30 if I went 9mm... but it is more expensive than the M&P 9mm which seems to also come as highly recommended. I personally love the SIGs and the way they feel but have been warned off due to a drop in QC recently (that being said, every gunstore employee tells me they sell alot and never get them back [even though most gun store employees seem to actually know sweet **** all about guns]). I have resisted the (strong) urge to get a 9mm P226 solely based on the advice of a few members here whose advice I hold in high esteem.
You still can't go wrong with a G17 or G19 and when you look at the Sig and HK prices the Glocks and to some extent the M&P's are appealing (if you can get one).
Not that my opinion should sway the OP's but I am looking for a HK45 if I can ever find one ...
In this case I would have to say that bigger is better.
Sometimes yes - Sometimes not. At least that's what a lot of AZ LEA's and DHS LEA's have concluded after exhaustive research. Going bigger is fine as long as you can hit your target accurately and quickly. Can't manage the recoil? You'll be fine and not undergunned with a high quality 9mm JHP. As for the platform, try try try before you buy.
When those who carry everyday in the box want anything except a 9. Why are you even thinking of one?
I know quite a few people who are and/or have been "in the box," and quite a few of them are perfectly satisfied with the 9mm. If you honestly believe that five hundredths of an inch is the difference between "stun" and "kill," knock yourself out.
Having been involved in a two way range situation (shooting) I can tell you I am perfectly contented carrying a 9mm. And I have a choice...
SloaneRanger
02-10-09, 19:47
If you honestly believe that five hundredths of an inch is the difference between "stun" and "kill," knock yourself out.
Sorry... but that's a classic ....;)
memberonly
02-10-09, 19:52
I chose a G19 as my first handgun and still have the very same one even now. My main reason is parts availability.
All mechanical devices will break if you use it a lot. You want something that is easy to maintain and Glock really stands out in that. Over the last 10+ year I broke a striker, chipped an extractor, and replaced several springs & spacer sleeves. All of these can be found and repaired easily with some mechanical knowledge.
Unlike many others have suggested, I made myself to like a Glock largely due to this factor. I like the trigger of a 1911, ergonomics of a 226, and design of a P7. For carry and lots of practices, I prefer my G19.
Hope this help.
Just from my personal experiences in LE, the majority of officers that choose to carry .40S&W or .45acp are usually more skilled shooters than those who opt to carry the general issue 9mm. What people confuse for a more effective caliber might have more to do with skill of the operator. Just an observation from watching hundreds of officers during qualifications.....
Serious duty use 9mm pistols to consider are:
Beretta 92
Glock 17/19/26
H&K USP and P30
S&W M&P and Compact
Sig P225/P226/P228/P229/P239
Test them out and see which one grows on you. I'm partial to Sigs for the excellent DA/SA trigger and overall handling, but many aren't fond of the grip.
There's a number of other which have pretty records like the Browning HP and the CZ 75b, but they aren't quite on the same level as the above pistols when it comes to service life and reliability.
Mr. Vickers excellent post on Glocks (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=11788&highlight=Glocks+Vickers) succinctly summed up a lot of the reasons why I recommend the G17 or G19 - excellent reliability, ease of maintenance and a simple manual of arms makes the Glock a great pistol for newcomers or experienced shooters alike. The G19 in particular is extremely versatile - shoots like a full size firearm but is easily concealed. If I was limited to one pistol, it'd be a G19.
It is very much a Glock world right now. It remains the most widely issued law enforcement firearm in the US, and is popular worldwide. Spare parts and magazines are plentiful and reasonably priced (the current run on magazines notwithstanding). Glock Armorers are easy to find if something breaks. And every reputable instructor out there is going to know the Glock system.
With the right ammunition, the 9mm is a perfectly acceptable self defense cartridge. Ammo prices are still high, and 9mm is still considerably cheaper than either .40 or .45. If you're paying for your own ammo, that may mean more opportunity to practice with the 9mm.
Besides its widespread use in law enforcement and military circles, the 9mm Glock is also a dominant pistol in IDPA. If you're considering getting into the shooting sports, the Glock is an excellent choice. I still see more Glocks than anything else at IDPA competitions. The Glock 34 also bears consideration if you're seeking additional accuracy - the added sight radius and smoother trigger make the G34 the most accurate Glock I own.
I've only passing experience with the S&W M&P series, which is starting to develop its own following. It is clearly trying to emulate - and improve upon - many of the attributes that make the Glock so popular. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.
Just from my personal experiences in LE, the majority of officers that choose to carry .40S&W or .45acp are usually more skilled shooters than those who opt to carry the general issue 9mm. What people confuse for a more effective caliber might have more to do with skill of the operator. Just an observation from watching hundreds of officers during qualifications.....
.
Just curious: from your qualification observations, do you know whether the officers that choose to up to a 40-something shoot as accurately and quickly as when they qualified with a 9mm? The officers I've seen shot better with 9mm, but not necessarily the "more skilled shooters" because here in most of the PD's all officers were forced from 9mm to .40 only because that's what they believed the FBI did, at least at one time.
Just curious: from your qualification observations, do you know whether the officers that choose to up to a 40-something shoot as accurately and quickly as when they qualified with a 9mm? The officers I've seen shot better with 9mm, but not necessarily the "more skilled shooters" because here in most of the PD's all officers were forced from 9mm to .40 only because that's what they believed the FBI did, at least at one time.
Most do shoot the larger calibers just as well in qualifications. However, most LE qualifications are a walk in the park for shooters who practice and make an effort to be skilled shooters. In general, their level of skill and range time outweighs the slight increase in follow-up shot speed and follow-up shot accuracy you gain in using the 9mm. So, if there is a caliber choice for the officer, the officers that decided to move up in caliber are "USUALLY" better trained resulting in better shooting performance.
As for me, I would consider myself well trained and experienced. However, I recognize that in a deadly force situation.....we do not rise to the occasion, we fall back onto our level of training. Even though I am an accomplished shooter with .45acp, for a number of considerations I prefer to carry 9mm or .40S&W depending on situation.
In general, their level of skill and range time outweighs the slight increase in follow-up shot speed and follow-up shot accuracy you gain in using the 9mm.
As with most things, discussing this in relative terms can be confusing. When you say "slight increase," what exactly do you mean? How was it timed? How did you come to a conclusion about what would be a significant or insignificant improvement in speed?
So, if there is a caliber choice for the officer, the officers that decided to move up in caliber are "USUALLY" better trained resulting in better shooting performance.
My experience has been the exact opposite. The better the shooter and the more knowledgeable he is about ballistics, the more likely he seems to be to opt for a 9mm if it's available. Because if we really believe that all the major combat calibers are adequate, and we really believe that speed & accuracy are more important than a few hundredths of an inch in bullet diameter, then one is almost certainly going to opt for the 9mm which is easier to shoot accurately at speed, has higher capacity, and (for those who pay their own way) costs less to train with.
As for me, I would consider myself well trained and experienced.
I consider myself fairly competent with a handgun, as well. I know for certain that -- for a given platform -- I'm consistently better with a 9mm than with other calibers. Of course, again this is relative term. To me, a few hundredths of a second in speed is better than a few hundredths of an inch bullet diameter. Odds are, any rational person will tell you that neither is worth worrying about.
Unfortunately for them, MIL guys are stuck with FMJ ammo.
Most of us are not similarly constrained.
Big difference in the performance of 9mm NATO ball and best in class 9mm JHPs.
Even so, 9mm ball to the heart or brain beats the heck out of a .45 SXT to something that's not vital.
Check out Doc GKR's posts for the (lack of) significant difference in performance between best in class 9mm/.355", 10mm/.40", and 11mm/.45"
If you can drop the cash I would take the P30. Mine is my favorite pistol to shoot and the most accurate. Only sad thing is that it doesn't come in a .40 so until it does I will be sticking with my Glock 23 and 27 loaded with Triton Quik-Shoks.
-Goober
Todd, sorry for the confusion.
I'm not saying that the officers using the larger calibers would not have done better using 9mm(they obviously would given the laws of physics). I'm saying that the officers that made the decision to increase caliber size were "on average" better shooters than those who opted to stick with the standard issue 9mm. The officers that opted to use .40S&W and .45acp tended to do more dry firing, practiced drawing from their holster more, and seemed to get more range time in.
I know what you mean about terminal effects knowledge......a lot of officers using .40S&W had little knowledge about things such as permanent and temporary cavity.....they just used muzzle energy as their guildline. The .45acp users were on the right track as they knew about permanent cavity and the the larger cavity the .45acp created. The "skilled" 9mm users on average understood that the differences between the service calibers was small and they chose to use what they shot best. The terminal effects differences between the service calibers is indeed minor. The 9mm is a fantastic cartridge and I like to use it when I'm not on duty or I'm in the backcountry. When I'm doing a lot of work around vehicles, I prefer to carry .40S&W has it on average does better against autoglass than the 9mm:
Latest Winchester Ranger Talons:
9mm 147gr(990fps): (Penetration/Expansion)
Bare Gel: 13.9”/.65”
Through Denim: 14.5”/.66”
Through Heavy Cloth: 14”/.66”
Through Wallboard: 15”/.67”
Through Plywood: 14.8”/.62”
Through Steel: 17”/.45”
Through Auto Glass: 10.8”/.52”
.40S&W 180gr(990fps): (Penetration/Expansion)
Bare Gel: 13.1”/.69”
Through Denim: 13.5”/.67”
Through Heavy Cloth: 13.6”/.66”
Through Wallboard: 13.2”/.66”
Through Plywood: 15.1”/.64”
Through Steel: 16.8”/.53”
Through Auto Glass: 12.2”/.62”
By no means do I feel undergunned with 9mm. When a shooting involving the 9mm fails to stop the bad guy quickly......people are quick to blame the caliber. When the .40S&W or .45acp fails to stop the bad guy quickly........people say the bad guy was one tough SOB.
When those who carry everyday in the box want anything except a 9. Why are you even thinking of one? It has been said if it ant a 40 or better it ant s--t, I like the idea io not having to empty half a mag to make the bad guy stop what he is doing.
Look at any brand that fits your hand, the finger must reach the triger, and the way guns are made you can get a 40 in the same size package as a 9, and for around the same price.
In this case I would have to say that bigger is better.
A well placed round from a 9mm will stop someone just as quickly as a well placed .40... If you cannot hit the vitals, then I can see getting a bigger gun, but if you don't feel confident enough to place you're shots well, then you shouldn't be carrying. I carry several guns, from a small little Kimber Ultra CDP .45 ACP to the Beretta M9 - and I don't feel at all undergunned with the 9... also, keep in mind that you may not be able to get high capacity 9mm's much longer, if the ban gets reinstated, you can still get a big .45 or (yuck) .40S&W later... I'm a big 10mm Auto fan, so I just don't have much love for the .40 ;)
As long as I don't carry any caliber smaller than .380 ACP, I'll feel completely safe.
Jack_Stroker
02-11-09, 11:39
I typically carry a 1911 chambered in .45ACP and use one (usually the same one) as my home defense weapon of choice. This isn't because I feel that .45ACP is a death ray or anything but rather because I am simply more comfortable with the 1911 as a platform than I am anything else. I'm more confident in my ability to place shots with the 1911 and follow them up accurately than I am with other guns. My Beretta 92FS was my first handgun and I'm comfortable with it as well. I feel just as safe having 15+1 rounds of 9mm as I am with having 8+1 or 10+1 (Wilson 47T) of .45ACP in my 1911. I'd probably just as easily use the 9mm for home defense, but I usually use my carry gun for home defense which is a Springfield TRP 1911 in stainless steel finish. The 92FS isn't the best choice for carry due to the thickness and size of the grip. As a result I don't use it much for anything besides as a range toy anymore. Before I had a concealed handgun license and before I got into 1911's I used the Beretta 92FS for home defense.
I'm saying that the officers that made the decision to increase caliber size were "on average" better shooters than those who opted to stick with the standard issue 9mm. The officers that opted to use .40S&W and .45acp tended to do more dry firing, practiced drawing from their holster more, and seemed to get more range time in.
One truism I've learned is that the guys who practice more and are generally more interested in guns will be the ones more likely to opt for anything other than standard issue. Average cops don't care, but gun guys have their favorite flavors and are willing to spend a few hundred bucks to have one in their holsters.
Caliber choices can be very complicated and it's hard to draw conclusions without detailed data. For example, a good friend of mine is issued a Glock 22. He would personally prefer a G17 (shoots it better, has more faith in its reliability/durability, wants more bullets) but his agency issues 9mm to girls who can't handle the .40-cal recoil. So switching to a G17 would red light him for the FIs, teammates, etc. It's silly, but it's the reality of human politics.
I once met an FBI SWAT team guy who explained to me -- in detail -- that his team carries a .45 because they've seen time and time again how much more effective the .45 is when shooting down plates. "Even a near miss with a .45 will knock down a plate." Exact quote. Hand to God. And this guy, no doubt, has influence on the non-SWAT guys in his office.
The idea that "in the know" people tend to choose >9mm handguns just doesn't prove itself out in my experience.
Out of the guns in my vault, the one(s) that I find myself usually preferring(and carrying) are my 9mm Glocks-specifically, my G17 and G19. I tend to prefer them for their overall excellence in a number of categories-reliability, accuracy, ergonomics, corfort, light weight, excellent magazines (again, paralleling the guns themselves in terms of quality of construction and materials used, reliability/durability). Another factor in favor of Glocks is their superb after-purchase support, to all users, be they LEO, military, or just the individual civilian owner. Glocks are modularly constructed, and exceptionally easy to use, maintain, and service. All these factors go a long way with me.
I trust, and like, the other 9mm guns that I have, including SIGs, Berettas, Rugers, etc. If they don't work, and aren't reliable, they don't usually last too long with me-but I still find myself gravitating to my Glocks more than the others.
I have handguns in other calibers, such as .40, .357 SIG, and .45 ACP. I have nothing agains the .40, but with modern advances in 9mm cartridges and bullets, for my general use I find the caliber with little real advantage over 9mm, and .40 ammunition is generally significantly more expensive. My .40 collection accordingly has been reduced to a Hi-Power and a P229-they're keepers, but relatively rarely used or carried. I like the .357 SIG round; the problem is finding a gun capable of holding together in the long run, so my sole .357 SIG is a SIG P229 DAK. Again, I think that if you're choosing to use the .40, or mandated its use by organizational rules, I think that it's an excellent caliber-but for me, it's a bit redundant, and too expensive for general use and heavy practice/match use.
.45 ACP? Well, it's a great, proven cartridge, and I have several guns that shoot it, both 1911-pattern guns and a Glock 21. I like the cartridge and the guns, but again .45 ACP factory ammunition is comparatively expensive, and weight-wise, the guns are generally heavier than their 9mm compatriots.
Seasonally, I do tend to prefer my .357 SIG and .45 ACP guns in the winter, due to what I believe is a higher probability of successful terminal performance when the bullet has to travel through multiple layers of clothing.
Best, Jon
Dutch, I believe that a Glock 17 or 19 would be a better choice for you. They are very affordable, very rugged for low maintainance, and can point very well. IMO you would be better off to start with a Glock and base any other weapon upgrades/decisions off of this starting point, while having a more than suitable defensive weapon in the meantime. Glocks are very K.I.S.S.
I once met an FBI SWAT team guy who explained to me -- in detail -- that his team carries a .45 because they've seen time and time again how much more effective the .45 is when shooting down plates. "Even a near miss with a .45 will knock down a plate." Exact quote. Hand to God. And this guy, no doubt, has influence on the non-SWAT guys in his office.
We can only hope that SWAT guy was kidding. I've also seen old timers use the pepper popper example as a measure of caliber effectiveness and I always roll my eyes. At a training session I decided to poke fun at this cocky know-it-all who used this to justify the use of .45acp, so I threw a rock at one of the poppers. It fell over with more authority than the .45acp hits and I said......."guess I should ditch my pistol and start carrying limestone"
Needless to say that guy wasn't too friendly with me after that. :rolleyes:
We can only hope that SWAT guy was kidding.
Serious as a heart attack. A local (NJ) cop joined the conversation to explain that his department was very happy with their 9mm pistols but the SWAT guy absolutely insisted that the .45 was better because, and I quote again because it's one of the best lines I've ever heard, "Even a near miss" will do the job.
The rock thing is funny, though. I'll have to remember that.
John_Wayne777
02-12-09, 07:50
I once met an FBI SWAT team guy who explained to me -- in detail -- that his team carries a .45 because they've seen time and time again how much more effective the .45 is when shooting down plates. "Even a near miss with a .45 will knock down a plate." Exact quote. Hand to God.
I believe you.
I've encountered the same phenomenon myself.
Nobody can tell you what you're going to be the most accurate with. Handle them. Lots of them. When you're able to narrow your choices down a bit, find a range that rents and try them out. The right one will speak to you and you'll know what to buy. This is much more a personal thing than a group thing. I doubt if you'll find a modern handgun that is any less accurate than you are with it.
My choice in 9mm is the Sig P226, which I have two of, very closely followed by the P228, which I also have two of and finally the P225. I only have one of these though I do have a West German P6, which is also a P225 with a lousy DA trigger (though the SA on it is like buttah!). Sigs just fit my hand better than anything else I've tried.
+1 to the P226
Sigs just fit my hand better than anything else I've tried.
Ditto
[QUOTE=ToddG;308522]I once met an FBI SWAT team guy who explained to me -- in detail -- that his team carries a .45 because they've seen time and time again how much more effective the .45 is when shooting down plates. "Even a near miss with a .45 will knock down a plate." Exact quote. Hand to God. And this guy, no doubt, has influence on the non-SWAT guys in his office.[QUOTE]
Makes you wonder how competent FBI agents are in general if that is what he truly believes.
John_Wayne777
02-12-09, 15:28
Makes you wonder how competent FBI agents are in general if that is what he truly believes.
The FBI is probably like any other LE organization. There are people in the FBI who are gun people, and then people who aren't gun people but try to learn about their tools, people who aren't gun people and don't know a lot about their tools but handle them well enough, and then people who should be required to keep their bullet in their shirt pocket in case of emergency.
Terminal ballistics is a whole field of study unto itself and there aren't a lot of people who expend the time and effort to learn about the ammo they are carrying. In LE the question is moot for a lot of people because they have to carry what they are issued and have zero input on what they get issued. As a regular joe with an interest in the topic I've paid attention to it for years and I'm still a rank amateur with little useful knowledge.
I've met guys from a number of organizations who don't really know a lot about weapons or ammo or shooting in general...but they'd been confronted with multiple lethal force situations and the bad guys were no longer around to tell the tale.
Knowing stuff about guns is one thing. Knowing how to use them effectively for serious social purposes is another. ;)
Makes you wonder how competent FBI agents are in general if that is what he truly believes.
When it comes to firearms, they are certainly better trained than the average cop.
The vast majority of them, as JW777 pointed out, are not going to be "gun people" and thus they don't spend their days reading forums and learning about this stuff on their own time.
The difference is that unlike the majority of LE agencies in this country, the FBI also has teams of people who do nothing but study this stuff full time. So as an agency they are usually on a pretty good track.
Glock 17 for a full-sized accurate and reliable gun; Glock 19 for an excellent mid-sized gun.
K
+1 to the P226
Our aircrew carries the Sig M-11. I would rather shoot the M11 than the M-9. I have small hands and the M9 doesn't fit well.
http://www.navyseals.com/m11
CZ-75/SP01, S&W M&P, Glock 17/19, Sig 226, Beretta 92.
CZ would be your best bet in a reliable, full-size, accurate fighting pistol.
Our aircrew carries the Sig M-11. I would rather shoot the M11 than the M-9. I have small hands and the M9 doesn't fit well.
http://www.navyseals.com/m11
Apparently there was a manufacturing overrun as a new batch of M-11s are being imported as the P228R. I don't think I like the idea of a rail on a 228 but a railed 228 is much better than no 228:D. I love my 228s.
Guys I picked up a Browning HP Practical a few days ago, was looking at others but Gander had this gun as a store demo and it wa unfired, best of all I got it foe 314+ tax so I couldn't pass on it. I still am going to get another 9mm though. After my experience today with a M&P 45C its going to be hard not to try one in a 9mm.
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