View Full Version : HOLY BATMAN . . . Bushmaster w/ a "TUPPERWARE" PLASTIC Lower Reciever!
I was in a local gun store today and the owner handed me a new Bushmaster AR-15 he'd just gotten in and said, "Check this out!"
THE DANGED THING HAD A LOWER RECEIVER MADE OF BLACK PLASTIC . . . instead of aluminum!
Is this a new development? It is surely new to me . . . then again, I'm just getting into the black rifle part of the sport.
Wow . . . a Tupperware AR 15!
T
Its the Carbon-15, they've been out for a long time. I think the company who was selling them before Bushmaster bought them was Professional Ordnance or something like that. They used the carbon fiber during the AWB to bring their AR pistol in under the weight restrictions on pistols under the AWB.
Could also be Cavalry Arms, but I don't know of any partnerships they've done with Bushmaster.
Carbon 15 and Cav arms lower are a different animal.
Were the pistol grip and buttstock integral with the lower? If not it's probably a carbon 15 lower, and you need to steer very, very clear of it.
sabre defence also sells one with the cav-15 polymer lower, i found one about a month ago for 869$ and bought it. it came in a sabre-marked assualt case with two 30 rd. mags and a bore-snake kit in one of the pockets. it is an a1 stock, i beleive they called it a ar=lite, i gave it to my son-in-law,,,he's crazy about it. made a fine gift for free,,for sure. [along wih a dozen assorted mags, and 700 rds. of good ammo]
Jay Cunningham
02-07-09, 08:26
Polymer lower receiver = why?
Polymer lower receiver = why?
Because booger eaters will buy it. People will buy junk like Kel tec pistols and Ruger LCRs or whatever the fook they're called. The Carbon 15 is the biggest piece of shit I've ever seen. It makes an Olympic Arms rifle look appealing! :eek:
Jay Cunningham
02-07-09, 08:49
Because booger eaters will buy it. People will buy junk like Kel tec pistols and Ruger LCRs or whatever the fook they're called. The Carbon 15 is the biggest piece of shit I've ever seen. It makes an Olympic Arms rifle look appealing! :eek:
Back when I was still actively eating boogers I picked up some kind of AR thingy in a trade and it was in a CavArms polymer lower. The FCG popped apart after 25 rounds and I couldn't get it back together. That was called a "clue."
Usual arguments pro:
It's lighter.
It is more corrosion resistant.
My response:
Has anyone ever had an issue with the weight or corrosion resistance of an aluminum AR lower?
:rolleyes:
It's like a Glock AR! :D This thing should pick up lots of supporters really quickly and it should not be a surprise for anyone.
my thoughts was that even if the polymer lower did'nt work out,,the complete sabre upper,mags and case was basically worth 869$. maybe it will be okay, if not i'll get him another lower,
You don't see the Carbon come up on this site much because most shooters here have seen the light.
But when people would ask about the Carbon on TOS (after falling in love with the light weight when the picked it up in the gun store), I'd offer to make them an AR out of Styrofoam.
my thoughts was that even if the polymer lower did'nt work out,,the complete sabre upper,mags and case was basically worth 869$. maybe it will be okay, if not i'll get him another lower,
The sabre gun is a far cry better than the Carbon. It don't like a poly lower, but that one is the better choice by far.
Littlelebowski
02-07-09, 09:10
My Cav lower has treated me extremely well. Fine company and great guys to do business with.
The lower is very light and cuts down on vibration/recoil quite well. This is the first time I've heard of someone having a problem with theirs.
AirmanAtwood
02-07-09, 09:17
It's like a Glock AR! :D This thing should pick up lots of supporters really quickly and it should not be a surprise for anyone.
Its been out for a while now, Probably before '95. They still suck to this day
Jay Cunningham
02-07-09, 09:20
My Cav lower has treated me extremely well. Fine company and great guys to do business with.
The lower is very light and cuts down on vibration/recoil quite well. This is the first time I've heard of someone having a problem with theirs.
If a plastic lower with an nonadjustable buttstock and pistol grip is your thing, then rock on brother! I can't see a compelling reason for it. No comment on if the guys who run the business are the nicest guys in the world - to me that's beside the point.
When you say it cuts down on vibration/recoil, how do you mean? Do you have vibration or recoil issues with a standard AR?
Littlelebowski
02-07-09, 09:21
What is your experience with CavArms products, Atwood?
The original Carbon 15 ARs came out when I was till working selling guns. We got several in, and then back in, and then back in, and then back in... you get the idea. I do believe that BM has made changes to the original design, but the whole concept is flawed.
Cavarms is a company that's run by good guys, and I have owned one of their lowers (past tense) one of their lowers without issue, but post-AWB they make little sense to me.
Littlelebowski
02-07-09, 09:27
I don't have "issues" with standard ARs but I do notice significantly less vibration and recoil with the CavArms lower.
Since I'm a non high speed low drag civilian, I don't find my myself constantly adjusting a stock for armor, inside of vehicles, etc... The rest of you might have a more exciting civilian life perhaps.
I'm not saying it's for everyone but my CavArms lower has treated me well with no problems whatsoever.
Cagemonkey
02-07-09, 10:32
I don't have a problem with the idea of a polymer lower rec. The SCAR L uses a poly lower along with the MagPul Masada. Since us mere mortals can't get a Aluminum MagPul lower, it would be nice if they came out with a Poly lower utilizing their improved features.
Jay Cunningham
02-07-09, 10:46
I don't have a problem with the idea of a polymer lower rec. The SCAR L uses a poly lower along with the MagPul Masada. Since us mere mortals can't get a Aluminum MagPul lower, it would be nice if they came out with a Poly lower utilizing their improved features.
What improved features are you referring to? I guess what I am asking is: how does a polymer lower "improve" the AR platform?
Outlander Systems
02-07-09, 11:20
I once, I'm ashamed to admit, owned a Carbon-15 type 97S pistol.
I sold it after one trip to the range.
It was the biggest headache to try and shoot. It was very un ergonomic. I had at LEAST two common AR-15 malfunctions per magazine.
I was using the same ammunition as my buddies, but I was the only one with struck primers and no fires.
It would've been laughable if it wasn't a major headache.
Dude, that goddamned thing burned me with a badness...
If I remember correctly it had a shortened bolt carrier group, a very weird buffer tube/spring, and was squirrelier than a football bat.
I hated that thing. I think it says a lot, when after one day at the range I sold it. I've had problematic weapons before (S&W Sigma, anyone?), but this thing took the cake.
AirmanAtwood
02-07-09, 19:09
What is your experience with CavArms products, Atwood?
I was referring to the Carbon 15 BM. They have a track record of being crap, and the one I handled did not impress me the slightest.
I have known they sucked, but I still got a chuckle when I went down to the local gunstore. Even though the panic buying was in full swing, there were a few used professional ord. carbon rifles and a bushmaster model in .22 sitting alone on the rack. Even the oly's got picked up before them. I think one of them eventually sold, but they sure haven't moved very fast in this enviroment.
Cagemonkey
02-07-09, 19:31
What improved features are you referring to? I guess what I am asking is: how does a polymer lower "improve" the AR platform?It could incorporate their Masada style pistol grip with a UBR type stock. It could be made in OD, Forest Green, Coyote Brown or Black. You could add other features like a stippled mag well front, integral trigger guard and quick detachable sling swivel mounts. The combination rec./stock assy would be lighter, less expensive and of similar or better strength than a traditional lower. Plus it would be a MagPul and you know everyone would go crazy for it. The SCAR prototypes used Aluminum lowers similar to the FN FNC, no one had a problem with the production rifles using a poly lower. I, assume, FN made the changes for the same reasons I mentioned.
It could incorporate their Masada style pistol grip with a UBR type stock. It could be made in OD, Forest Green, Coyote Brown or Black. You could add other features like a stippled mag well front, integral trigger guard and quick detachable sling swivel mounts. The combination rec./stock assy would be lighter, less expensive and of similar or better strength than a traditional lower. Plus it would be a MagPul and you know everyone would go crazy for it. The SCAR prototypes used Aluminum lowers similar to the FN FNC, no one had a problem with the production rifles using a poly lower. I, assume, FN made the changes for the same reasons I mentioned.
Neat idea, but it sounds like it would take away the modularity that make's an AR such a great gun. Not everyone like the same setup and a polymer lower with an integrated stock and grip can limit a what a person wants in their gun.
Jay Cunningham
02-07-09, 21:47
It could incorporate their Masada style pistol grip with a UBR type stock. It could be made in OD, Forest Green, Coyote Brown or Black. You could add other features like a stippled mag well front, integral trigger guard and quick detachable sling swivel mounts. The combination rec./stock assy would be lighter, less expensive and of similar or better strength than a traditional lower. Plus it would be a MagPul and you know everyone would go crazy for it. The SCAR prototypes used Aluminum lowers similar to the FN FNC, no one had a problem with the production rifles using a poly lower. I, assume, FN made the changes for the same reasons I mentioned.
Your reasoning is not very convincing to me. There are eleventy billion pistol grips and stocks available for the standard AR lower. You can spray paint them any color that you desire. An integral trigger guard is actually limiting - if you want to install a Redi-Mag you can't do it with a lower that has an integral trigger guard.
It still seems like a complete novelty to me.
Cagemonkey
02-08-09, 10:48
SoDak and Katar are right that it will limit modularity and the ability to customize your weapon. It was just an idea. Some may like it others may not. The main advantage would be a weight and cost reduction.
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