View Full Version : Vltor Fortis...?
I saw somewhere else the other day Vltor is only making 2500 of these.
Will any dealers be taking preorders ?
(Grant) :p
any good sources for mags ?
go ahead and get a few stashed away :D
VooDoo6Actual
02-08-09, 13:02
http://www.vltor.com/pistol.htm
http://vltor.wordpress.com/
From SHOT show 2009 in Orlando:
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/shot_006.jpg
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/shot_005.jpg
Supposedly Vltor is working the bugs out and will be available late 2009 or 2010. First runs will be full size 10mm, eventually will have "commander" length and also .45acp.
FromMyColdDeadHand
02-08-09, 13:46
I know I'm a heathen, but I just don't get it. To me the pistol isn't even that pretty, and I can be talked into a lot of odd guns.
I know I'm a heathen, but I just don't get it. To me the pistol isn't even that pretty, and I can be talked into a lot of odd guns.
I'm not expert but I believe that the Fortis is based on the famous Bren Ten which was, by most accounts, the best 10mm platform.
Think 10mm CZ... ;)
SA/DA...condition 1 in 10mm, more durable than Colt's DE...that was the intent as I understood
Can't wait for it...
I know I'm a heathen, but I just don't get it. To me the pistol isn't even that pretty, and I can be talked into a lot of odd guns.
I have to agree
I'm not expert but I believe that the Fortis is based on the famous Bren Ten which was, by most accounts, the best 10mm platform.
Just my opinion, but the 10mm is like the 5.7, the answer to a question nobody asked. It is not cheap, or readily available and it seems to me(not an expert, just my opinion) that whatever the need there is a better round out there to accomplish it
Just my opinion, but the 10mm is like the 5.7, the answer to a question nobody asked. It is not cheap, or readily available and it seems to me(not an expert, just my opinion) that whatever the need there is a better round out there to accomplish it
the only automatic rounds that have more power than 10mm are for the desert eagle.
if you want a powerful RELIABLE and reasonably sized pistol you need to go 10mm.
i personally don't have much need for 10mm as a man stopper, but i plan to buy one as a woods gun. probably getting a G29.
the only automatic rounds that have more power than 10mm are for the desert eagle.
if you want a powerful RELIABLE and reasonably sized pistol you need to go 10mm.
i personally don't have much need for 10mm as a man stopper, but i plan to buy one as a woods gun. probably getting a G29.
Revolvers have worked well for me when I need something that powerful in a hand sized weapon. Hence the caviat of "my opinion"
Much of the Bren Ten design was based off of the CZ 75b. However, the frame on the Bren Ten doesn't extend very far down the slide. With the pivot point of the recoil so far to the rear I'm willing to bet that it puts a good beating on the frame rails and might lead to premature breaking of the frame. I'm not sure how far the Bren Ten went through testing, but I'd like to see some endurance testing on it before I'd say it's durable. The S&Ws the FBI used were really put through some abuse and from several reviews at the time the Bren Ten was not considered to be as durable.
Like someone else said, the 10mm for me is like the 5.7mm. When it comes to power, the 10mm is much closer to a standard service caliber than it is to the .44magnum or .50AE. The .41magnum is also in a league of its own compared to the hottest 10mm loads. For me, the only reason I go more powerful than standard service caliber is for large game protection/hunting and a robust revolver does a more than adequate job in that regard. With a revolver you can shoot anything you want out of it. Full wadcutters, underpower loads, full powered loads, other calibers(.44spl in .44magnum).....it reliably feeds anything and accuracy is even better than the Desert Eagle. When it come to large dangerous game, most guides in Alaska will tell you to carry nothing smaller than a .44mag.......but most carry 12 gauge hardcast slugs. The 10mm is a poodle shooter outside of two legged varmits.
Ive carried 10mm's since '85, I love the round and have shot quite a few hogs and deer with it. Im looking forward to a quality pistol like the Fortis chambering it.
Ive read everything I could find, Im looking for more info than whats on the Vitor webpage...
Just my opinion, but the 10mm is like the 5.7, the answer to a question nobody asked. It is not cheap, or readily available and it seems to me(not an expert, just my opinion) that whatever the need there is a better round out there to accomplish it
Actually, if you look at the history of the 10mm the FBI did indeed ask for it so...
I know I'm a heathen, but I just don't get it. To me the pistol isn't even that pretty, and I can be talked into a lot of odd guns.
Sonny Crockett carried one, so it's way cool :)
Actually, if you look at the history of the 10mm the FBI did indeed ask for it so...
Now that you say that I do seem to remember something about that. Didn't they even get 10mm MP5?
Now that you say that I do seem to remember something about that. Didn't they even get 10mm MP5?
They did. However, in the last ten or so years the FBI has been phasing them out for more 9mm and .40S&W MP5s. The adopted FBI 10mm load in 1989 launched a 180gr Sierra JHP at 980fps.......which is why Smith and Wesson contracted Winchester and Federal to engineer the .40S&W which matched this performance. The FBI is also transitioning to M4s for body armor concerns and improved terminal effects. SMGs are being phased out more and more by US LE agencies and military branches.
Revolvers have worked well for me when I need something that powerful in a hand sized weapon. Hence the caviat of "my opinion"
fair enough... i'll have to shoot some magnum revolvers and get back to you. I've just been very impressed with how well 10mm glocks shoot considering the power they have.
definitely a round for reloaders though.
not a big 10mm guy either...but only because I don't hunt, and I don't reload....
I've had a Delta Elite and a G20, and they were fun to shoot....but not 4x more fun than my 9mm, and 2x more than .45....which is what the cost comparison of ammo basically broke down to...
having said that, I DEFINITELY see a .45 ACP Fortis in my future.....and maybe some linen boat shoes....and pastel shirts, with linen suits.....and definitely some slicked back hair....oh yeah, giggity giggity giggity...
Guys, it's a cultural thing.
Col. Jeff Cooper, the original Gun Site, and yes, the original Miami Vice.
If you don't remember those things, the Fortis might not be for you.
I can't wait to get mine. :cool:
I'm not expert but I believe that the Fortis is based on the famous Bren Ten which was, by most accounts, the best 10mm platform.
Actually the Bren Ten was riddled with problems. That is what makes the Fortis appealing. Vltor is working out the bugs and increasing the quality/strength of the internals using more modern production methods.
If I have the cash at the time, I might be tempted to buy one of these.
FromMyColdDeadHand
02-11-09, 09:31
Fortis/VLTOR seems to make a big deal about all the engineering and finite element analysis that went into the gun, so I guess it should be better than the original.
I like 10mm, from what I understand, if FBI chicks and geeks had bigger hands we'd have 10mm guns not 40SW. Great round, but I always get back to the fact that they all suck compared to using a rifle round, so reading ballistic gelatin is like reading entrails from the sacrifice.
Maybe if it had been around at the same time as the 1911, we would all be shooting 10mm instead of 45acp.
Maybe not an answer to a question nobody asked, but rather a round whose time may never come.
The FBI is just an example for other police agencies to mimic. All the federal, state, county, and city agencies around the country have their own budgets and resources and most do not adhere to the FBI equipment standards. Virtually no agency other than the FBI thought that using the 10mm was needed, and the FBI(reasons why are debatable) thought that the 10mm was better in the lower powered load at .40S&W levels. The FBI's end solution to the problems with the 1986 Miami shootout was not the 10mm, it was the 180gr .40S&W which has not changed with 20 years of successful service and by all accounts the agencies that use it are very satisfied with it.
The only advantage the 10mm offers over the .40S&W is deeper penetration which is kind of a moot point considering that most .40S&W loads penetrate 12-14" in ALL of the FBI protocol tests....even through sheet steel and windshields. I can see the 10mm being useful for black bear protection, but the average human torso is lightly protected and is only 8" from front to back. The 12" penetration standard that the FBI seems to be more than ideal for making up for shooting through obstructions and barriers.
Marcus, no one is holding a Fortis to your head to buy one.
It's a pistol for enthusiasts, let's move on.
Jack_Stroker
02-11-09, 10:07
10mm can be loaded as weak as .40S&W or loaded to compete with the .357 and 41 Magnum cartridges. It is a very versatile round that really should be more popular than it is. If ammunition was more common I'd use my Glock 20SF more than my 21SF.
The FBI wanted it and asked for it. But recoil and over penetration became an issue. It was difficult for agents to qualify with as follow up shots were difficult to make given the recoil of the full power rounds. Over penetration of full power 10mm rounds may or may not have been an issue. So that lead to the "10mm FBI load." Still the size of the round made the handgrips of the weapons too large for agents with smaller hands. (Think Glock 20) So Smith & Wesson answered the challenge with a shorter round that could match the performance of the 10mm FBI load. Really .40S&W answered all the FBI's needs that the 10mm didn't. However, 10mm is really one of the best semi-auto pistol rounds when loaded properly. Again it duplicates everything that .40S&W can do, beats .45ACP, matches or exceeds .357 Magnum. You can use it for home defense, concealed carry, hunting, or whatever. Not many rounds can fill so many roles so well.
I wish it were more popular.
Marcus, no one is holding a Fortis to your head to buy one.
It's a pistol for enthusiasts, let's move on.
Right.
10mm can be loaded as weak as .40S&W or loaded to compete with the .357 and 41 Magnum cartridges.
It does come close to the .357magnum, but the .41magnum is in a league of its own. Also, in a .41mag revolver you can load it with a wide variety of wadcutter loads for superior penetration against large game:
.40S&W:
-180gr JHP(1100fps at 484ft-lbs)
10mm Auto:
-180gr JHP(1300fps at 676ft-lbs)
-200gr JHP(1250fps at 694ft-lbs)
-230gr WFN-GC(1120fps at 641ft-lbs)
.41magnum:
-170gr JHP(1650fps at 1028ft-lbs)
-230gr SWC(1450fps at 1024ft-lbs)
-265gr LWN-GC(1350fps at 1072ft-lbs)
The 10mm is much closer to service caliber performance than it is magnum performance. Not that the 10mm doesn't have a place, it just isn't something I would trust against large dangerous game in which a .44magnum has trouble putting down.
Jack_Stroker
02-11-09, 11:44
It does come close to the .357magnum, but the .41magnum is in a league of its own. Also, in a .41mag revolver you can load it with a wide variety of wadcutter loads for superior penetration against large game:
.40S&W:
-180gr JHP(1100fps at 484ft-lbs)
10mm Auto:
-180gr JHP(1300fps at 676ft-lbs)
-200gr JHP(1250fps at 694ft-lbs)
-230gr WFN-GC(1120fps at 641ft-lbs)
.41magnum:
-170gr JHP(1650fps at 1028ft-lbs)
-230gr SWC(1450fps at 1024ft-lbs)
-265gr LWN-GC(1350fps at 1072ft-lbs)
The 10mm is much closer to service caliber performance than it is magnum performance. Not that the 10mm doesn't have a place, it just isn't something I would trust against large dangerous game in which a .44magnum has trouble putting down.
Good point. I thought it was closer to .41 Magnum performance. I had read that somewhere, but didn't actually check any real data.
wilshire1412
02-11-09, 19:15
Here is the latest on the Fortis http://vltor.wordpress.com/ I once owned a D&D Marksman which is the Bren Ten in .45 Auto that was a limited run for one dealer in Illinois. I can recall the pistol as being different looking in an attractive sort of way, but once I took it apart it was a bit of a let down. The originals were not built to a very high standard, everything was castings and things were fit a bit loosely for my taste. Remember that Dornau & Dixon were not an established maker previously, so as a first attempt I think they did the best they could given their circumstances and they did produce approximately 1400 pistols in the time they were going. Vltor has got the upper hand on this reincarnation, they are only doing this as it is the interest of their people to do so. This is not a make or break project for Vltor, they have their eggs in more than one basket. I want at least one of these if not two, I would get a 10mm first and then a .45 as I own a dozen .45s and only one 10mm at the present time.
I am not convinced that the VlTor Fortis is going to happen. There has been no update on their forum site since April.
Looks like another company has fallen victim to the Bren Ten curse.:eek:
Business_Casual
07-25-09, 12:11
I am not convinced that the VlTor Fortis is going to happen. There has been no update on their forum site since April.
Looks like another company has fallen victim to the Bren Ten curse.:eek:
I wouldn't assume that. It is more probable that they have devoted 100% of their resources to meeting the increased demand for AR parts and accessories of late.
M_P
Actually the Bren Ten was riddled with problems. That is what makes the Fortis appealing. Vltor is working out the bugs and increasing the quality/strength of the internals using more modern production methods.
If I have the cash at the time, I might be tempted to buy one of these.
working out those problems ran two different companies bankrupt.
i hope vltor can figure it out- i think i'd be inclined to grab one myself, even if just for nostalgia
wilshire1412
07-25-09, 21:46
working out those problems ran two different companies bankrupt.
i hope vltor can figure it out- i think i'd be inclined to grab one myself, even if just for nostalgia
Working out those problems ran two different start up companies with nothing else going bankrupt.
There is a lot of unrest among the Bren Ten fans regarding the development of the Fortis, many have wanted an original but most would not put an original to hard use considering the money involved in obtaining one. I think this is clearly a pet project that is not given the sense of urgency that the fan base seems to have, Vltor has to make good on orders for their existing
product line and will make money doing so.
I find it amazing that they have gone as far as they have with the project. This can not be an inexpensive pistol to build in this era of plastic frames and rather simple designs. I have no doubt that Vltor can build the guns but if it comes down to a business decision over what will be more profitable then the Fortis will be beaten out by the demand for AR parts.
I will buy one, if or when they get into production. I think it is going to be at least SHOT '10 before the green light is given, and then at least 6 months before one can be found at anything close to a reasonable price.
Great round, but I always get back to the fact that they all suck compared to using a rifle round, so reading ballistic gelatin is like reading entrails from the sacrifice.
good luck stuffing a rifle into the waistband of your pants and walking into the grocery store.
FromMyColdDeadHand
07-26-09, 02:24
good luck stuffing a rifle into the waistband of your pants and walking into the grocery store.
I'm still holding out for the KAC PDW ;)
While I don't want to entrust my family and my life to a 22lr round, the relative difference between similar pistol calibers is less of a factor than the bullet used and the skill of the shooter, N'est-ce pas? Lord knows I'd feel more comfortable knowing I had a hicap 10mm than a .380 if the SHTF. The Bren10 to me would more interestng in its ergonomics or some other attribute than simply just be a Perfect 10. (Has STI sold many of those Perfect 10 guns?)
wilshire1412
07-28-09, 12:03
Apparently Vltor has now obtained the rights to the Bren Ten name, and will mark the production pistols as such if and when.
http://vltor.wordpress.com/
The Fortis is dead...
Long Live The Bren Ten :p
http://vltor.wordpress.com/
old news, but I just saw it...
The Dumb Gun Collector
12-28-09, 19:02
I think it is pretty cool. I wouldn't mind having one. I would probably get it black-t'd just to be different.
The FBI is just an example for other police agencies to mimic. All the federal, state, county, and city agencies around the country have their own budgets and resources and most do not adhere to the FBI equipment standards. Virtually no agency other than the FBI thought that using the 10mm was needed, and the FBI(reasons why are debatable) thought that the 10mm was better in the lower powered load at .40S&W levels. The FBI's end solution to the problems with the 1986 Miami shootout was not the 10mm, it was the 180gr .40S&W which has not changed with 20 years of successful service and by all accounts the agencies that use it are very satisfied with it.
The only advantage the 10mm offers over the .40S&W is deeper penetration which is kind of a moot point considering that most .40S&W loads penetrate 12-14" in ALL of the FBI protocol tests....even through sheet steel and windshields. I can see the 10mm being useful for black bear protection, but the average human torso is lightly protected and is only 8" from front to back. The 12" penetration standard that the FBI seems to be more than ideal for making up for shooting through obstructions and barriers.
http://le.atk.com/pdf/PenetrationComparison53949vs53970.pdf
I hate to resurrect an old thread, but it's better than starting a new one, I suppose.
I can't get any contact from sporting arms about this new pistol, not even one telling me to piss off. Does anyone have any ideas on availability or pricing? I'd love to know how or when I can get an order in, and I'd like to know more about the models. Surely they have told someone something, somewhere.
militarymoron
02-16-10, 15:39
they're not available yet, that's why you can't order one.
they're not available yet, that's why you can't order one.
Have you been in contact with the Sporting Products guy? Are you gonna get an early review gun?
edit - funny I should post just now, a new blog post just ticked in.
http://vltor.wordpress.com/2010/02/16/press-release-16-feb-2010/
Gonna go actually read it now..
Have you been in contact with the Sporting Products guy? Are you gonna get an early review gun?
edit - funny I should post just now, a new blog post just ticked in.
http://vltor.wordpress.com/2010/02/16/press-release-16-feb-2010/
Gonna go actually read it now..
Yeah, I spoke with everyone, and figured out how to get an order in. :D I did have to bother a lot of people to do it, but I've got to have one of these.
militarymoron
02-18-10, 00:39
no - just the vltor guys. when you said 'order', i took it to mean that (which means it's actually available), not 'pre-order'.
when it comes to reviews, it's up to vltor.
Have you been in contact with the Sporting Products guy? Are you gonna get an early review gun?
edit - funny I should post just now, a new blog post just ticked in.
http://vltor.wordpress.com/2010/02/16/press-release-16-feb-2010/
Gonna go actually read it now..
I probably should have been more clear. I just want my name, or at least the name of a dealer I frequent, to be in the pot. Generally, when you miss a release like this, you have missed the train for a long while.
There aren't many semi-auto pistols that really keep me interested for fun, but I've always wanted one of these. I'd just as soon have a recreation with some tweaks rather than an old one. I want to shoot it, not keep it in the safe just to look at.
Who knows? It might actually turn out to be useful as well. I personally don't really care. :) I just want one.
I have to agree
I also agree..it looks like a clunky ass boat anchor
as a kitsch curiosity it may be mildly amusing but in essence it is an impractical toy...I might get one if I lose my mind and start collecting Don Johnson Miami Vice loafers
When do these start shipping ?
Someone posted that Vltor had the same display guns at the last SHOT show that they had the year prior.
It doesn't look very good. :confused:
When do these start shipping ?
Distributor says late May.
http://www.sportingproducts.com/bren-ten.aspx
I spent my Bren money on an M&P 45. :p
Cagemonkey
04-28-10, 18:24
I spent my Bren money on an M&P 45. :pWhat did you do with the change?
No kidding....
Mags, Raven concealment holster, etc. Switching to a new platform is a lot more expensive than just the pistol.
Can't wait to get one of these. I have owned a number of 10mms over the yrs, they were all extremely accurate and reliable. I am currently down to three: Les Baer, Dan Wesson, Tanfoglio Elite Stock. Suprisingly enough the Tanfoglio outshoots any ten that I have tried. The Vltor should be very similar to the Tan. Incidentally, (accordind to Jeff Cooper), the Bren ten came about because he loved everything about the CZ 75 except the caliber. He wanted one chambered in a round that would have as much energy at 50yds as a .45 at the muzzle.
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