Beavertail on Sigs

[scottryan]

Could someone explain to me the reasoning by putting a 1911 style beavertail on a Sig?

I think they look like crap and don't perform the same function as a real beavertail on a 1911.

I was going to buy the new SIG229 with the threaded barrel and I see it has the beavertail now so I won't be buying.

[ToddG]

I was at SIG when the first beavertail gun, the Elite, came out. I found out about it when the press release came out, and immediately sent my boss an email kvetching about it. I was the only person in the company shooting SIGs competitively (many of my trophies hang in the halls of the HQ building) but I was kept completely in the dark about the Elite. When I complained -- and pointed out that the beavertail looked poorly thought out -- my boss's response was, "If you want a job in engineering, send me a resume." :rolleyes:

The beavertail has two problems, one major and one minor.

The major problem is that it actually forces your hand lower on the frame than you can achieve without the beavertail. As such, it actually increases muzzle flip.

The minor problem is that the beavertail makes it very difficult to put your thumb on the hammer while holstering, something that should be SOP with anyone using a hammer-fired gun, especially one without a manual safety.

The beavertail was put on the gun because someone in the Marketing department thought it would look cool and sound good on a list of "improvements."

[scottryan]

I was at SIG when the first beavertail gun, the Elite, came out. I found out about it when the press release came out, and immediately sent my boss an email kvetching about it. I was the only person in the company shooting SIGs competitively (many of my trophies hang in the halls of the HQ building) but I was kept completely in the dark about the Elite. When I complained -- and pointed out that the beavertail looked poorly thought out -- my boss's response was, "If you want a job in engineering, send me a resume." :rolleyes:

The beavertail has two problems, one major and one minor.

The major problem is that it actually forces your hand lower on the frame than you can achieve without the beavertail. As such, it actually increases muzzle flip.

The minor problem is that the beavertail makes it very difficult to put your thumb on the hammer while holstering, something that should be SOP with anyone using a hammer-fired gun, especially one without a manual safety.

The beavertail was put on the gun because someone in the Marketing department thought it would look cool and sound good on a list of "improvements."



None of that surprises me.

[BAC]

Todd, does the same hold true for the 220 Compact? The 220 Compact seems a much smaller gun, which seems right to have a beavertail or something similar provided it lets your hand grip higher on the weapon, but in my limited fondling of it I don't recall if it's served poorly or well by a beavertail.


-B

[Marcus L.]

Tried one out and as Todd said, it made my hand ride lower than usual with the thumbs forward grip. I really don't see any need for it other than eye candy.....and that isn't all that great either. I like Sigs a lot, but I don't like the direction the ex Kimber man is taking the company. I'd really like an all stainless P229 to compliment my other aluminum framed model, but I want it with classic styling. Rounded trigger guard, no rail, no beaver tail, and no forward cocking serations......but I guess that is too much to ask for.

[Federale]

As useful as tits on a bull, but don't tell some who drink the Sig Kool Aid. ;)

Todd, none of that information surprises me. If Sig can sell the same gun with a different finish or an extended protuberance and call it an improvement, some people will buy it.

But as a person who has carried a P229 for a long time, I've never once wished that it had a beavertail. And as you pointed out, Sig's incarnation of the unnecessary beavertail actually detracts from the function of the pistol.

I like my Sigs, but there's a reason why only my P229 was built by Sigarms. The rest of them are all built before the fall of the wall.

[scottryan]

I was planning on getting a P239 with the factory threaded barrel sometime in the next 6 months.

I went out and got it today before they gayed this pistol up like everything else.

[scottryan]

Tried one out and as Todd said, it made my hand ride lower than usual with the thumbs forward grip. I really don't see any need for it other than eye candy.....and that isn't all that great either. I like Sigs a lot, but I don't like the direction the ex Kimber man is taking the company. I'd really like an all stainless P229 to compliment my other aluminum framed model, but I want it with classic styling. Rounded trigger guard, no rail, no beaver tail, and no forward cocking serations......but I guess that is too much to ask for.


A basic gun is just too much to ask for nowadays from most companies.

I was also looking at the P250 with the threaded barrel but then it came with the digital camo frame that screamed "wanabee"

[ToddG]

Todd, does the same hold true for the 220 Compact?

BAC -- Without one to handle, I wouldn't want to say for certain. The Compact was available for only a very short (pardon the pun) period of time before I departed. But to the best of my recollection, the grip angles were all the same as on a regular P220, in which case the beavertail would, as with the other guns, force your hand down lower ... which is the exact opposite of what a beavertail is supposed to do.

The only good thing about the Elites is the short reset trigger mechanism. And a little bird in New Hampshire told me that the short reset is going to become standard in all SIG pistols some time this year ...

[John Hearne]

I think that some of this comes down to hand structure. I used to have a callous on my firing hand from the tang of my P220. I think I had my hand fairly high up on the gun to get the callous.

When I transitioned to an Elite I didn't notice any appreciable difference in where my hand rode. I also shoot with a thumbs high grip and this seems to seat the pistol deeper in my hand as well. As best I can tell, the beaver tail fits MY hand.

Personally, I like the way the beavertail serves as a "stop" as I run my hand up the pistol. It works especially well with a Safariland ALS holster where the hand is being forced against the beavertail as you deactivate the ALS.

With that said, the actual beavertail itself is excessive. Sig should have trimmed it down some. I would suggest trimming so that the beavertail fits into the IDPA box when equipped with a 5" barrel but I have my own agenda. You could probably "deepen" the beaver tail so the gun sat even lower and it wouldn't hurt my feelings either.

I like the Elite package as I press check from underneath so the front cocking serrations are nice. I like the short reset trigger. I like the beavertail. I sold the non-functional wooden grips for $150 and replaced them with the factory thin grips. IIRC, selling the grips fully subsidized the upgrade from non-Elite to Elite.

[ST911]

The major problem is that it actually forces your hand lower on the frame than you can achieve without the beavertail. As such, it actually increases muzzle flip.

The minor problem is that the beavertail makes it very difficult to put your thumb on the hammer while holstering, something that should be SOP with anyone using a hammer-fired gun, especially one without a manual safety.


These, also seen to one extent or another on the Glock add-on or recontoured beavertails.

They do indeed shield the web of the hand a bit, and are a more positive stop as John notes, but at a price.



The beavertail was put on the gun because someone in the Marketing department thought it would look cool and sound good on a list of "improvements."

Yup. More fluff for owners, rather than shooters.


I was planning on getting a P239 with the factory threaded barrel sometime in the next 6 months.

I went out and got it today before they gayed this pistol up like everything else.

My favorite Sig remains the P228 classic.

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

MMMMmmm, Ilaflon flavored Kool-aide.

[scottryan]

They do indeed shield the web of the hand a bit,





They shield the web of your hand on a gun that has no risk of the web of your hand getting hit by any moving parts.

[ToddG]

They shield the web of your hand on a gun that has no risk of the web of your hand getting hit by any moving parts.

In fairness, that will depend on hand size. Ernest Langdon welded a beavertail onto his P220ST ... he has huge hands and of course he put his at a shape and angle that actually helped. :cool:

[BAC]

Is it possible for a 'smith to bob or otherwise modify the beavertail to do what it's supposed to do (let your hand sit a little higher)? I'm not so familiar with the Sigs to guess how much material would need to be altered.


-B

[ToddG]

On the aluminum guns, probably not. On a steel framed gun a 'smith could remove the offending part of the beavertail, which is all of it ... meaning you'll pay for the beavertail and then pay to remove it.

Now that Max Michel is shooting for SIG and influencing gun designs, I wouldn't be surprised if you see an improved generation of the Elite before the end of the year.

[scottryan]

In fairness, that will depend on hand size. Ernest Langdon welded a beavertail onto his P220ST ... he has huge hands and of course he put his at a shape and angle that actually helped. :cool:


A man with moderate hands can be pinched by a 1911.

Only someone with very large hands (5 percentile) could be pinched by a modern pistol.

A gun does not need a beavertail to accommodate the top five percentile.

[varoadking]

I dunno...I have several with and without...doesn't bother me one way or another.

Sometimes I think we tend to over-analyze shit...

YMMV...

[Abraxas]

I was at SIG when the first beavertail gun, the Elite, came out. I found out about it when the press release came out, and immediately sent my boss an email kvetching about it. I was the only person in the company shooting SIGs competitively (many of my trophies hang in the halls of the HQ building) but I was kept completely in the dark about the Elite. When I complained -- and pointed out that the beavertail looked poorly thought out -- my boss's response was, "If you want a job in engineering, send me a resume." :rolleyes:

The beavertail has two problems, one major and one minor.

The major problem is that it actually forces your hand lower on the frame than you can achieve without the beavertail. As such, it actually increases muzzle flip.

The minor problem is that the beavertail makes it very difficult to put your thumb on the hammer while holstering, something that should be SOP with anyone using a hammer-fired gun, especially one without a manual safety.

The beavertail was put on the gun because someone in the Marketing department thought it would look cool and sound good on a list of "improvements."
Wow how pathetic.

[HK45]

Its already been said by many but you can add me to the list of people who was mystified by the Sig beavertail. I have large hands and it does in fact force my hand lower which is not good considering that Sigs already have a high bore axis. Sig just plain pisses me off with all the goofy things they are doing. I used to be a big Sig kool aid drinker but you couldn't pay me to own one now.

[9mm_shooter]

I did handle a few of them, but the placement of the slide catch lever mimics that of any thumb safety, and my thumbs gravitate to it - moreso now with the beavertail. SiGSauer should stick to what works best for them. I think they are going for that part of the market that wants anything that can be labeled "Tactical." :rolleyes:

I'll save my concerns with their customer service dept, their warranty policy, their maintenance program, the markup on cheap imported Chinese optics, their capriciously selective application of the Minimum Advertised Pricing policy, and the issues with the 556 series for another thread. :mad:

[ToddG]

I did handle a few of them, but the placement of the slide catch lever mimics that of any thumb safety, and my thumbs gravitate to it - moreso now with the beavertail.

After decades of complaints about this issue, SIG is now working on various prototype designs which may possibly replace (on at least some models) the standard slide release lever. The catalyst seems to have been the combination of a major federal LE agency announcing it was ditching SIGs for Glocks this year (in small part because of this problem) and SIG's hiring of IPSC GM Max Michel who, after a career of running 1911s better than almost anyone in the world, probably doesn't want to adjust his shooting technique to accommodate the odd SIG lever position.

To be honest, it's not a problem for anyone who is devoted to the SIG and makes a tiny adjustment to thumb placement. But for folks who only shoot SIGs some of the time, or folks who don't understand why the slide won't lock back, it can be frustrating.

[sigmundsauer]

Funny, I have a far more difficult time steering around the slide release levers on more conventionally placed pistols than the SIGs. And I've shot a lot of different pistols. The only SIG that routinely gives me problems with the slide release lever is the P239, due to slightly compressed ergonomics.

Frankly, I think this is one of the peculiarities of SIG-Sauer pistols that makes many despise them. They are quite simply the anti-1911. Trigger action, reset, and bore axis are so foreign to handgunners who attempt to use a SIG after shooting 1911s and others that they become so frustrated and condemn the SIG-Sauer as unworkable.

While I will certainly agree that adjusting to something different after shooting another pistol for so long is quite disruptive, if not down right emotional, I refuse to conclude that is any fault of the pistol. SIG-Sauers are, or at least used to, be among the highest quality, dependable fighting guns ever produced. Many have learned to run them at world-class proficiency levels. If one's hands are so programmed to a particular gun or manual of arms, then my advice is don't switch.

The beaver tail is the stupidest contraption SIG has ever put on a pistol.

Tim

[variablebinary]

After decades of complaints about this issue, SIG is now working on various prototype designs which may possibly replace (on at least some models) the standard slide release lever. The catalyst seems to have been the combination of a major federal LE agency announcing it was ditching SIGs for Glocks this year (in small part because of this problem) and SIG's hiring of IPSC GM Max Michel who, after a career of running 1911s better than almost anyone in the world, probably doesn't want to adjust his shooting technique to accommodate the odd SIG lever position.

To be honest, it's not a problem for anyone who is devoted to the SIG and makes a tiny adjustment to thumb placement. But for folks who only shoot SIGs some of the time, or folks who don't understand why the slide won't lock back, it can be frustrating.

Interesting. If SIG dumps the beavertails and rails, but fixes the slide release location and adds the SRT, I would consider buying one.

As it is, I wont ever buy another SIG product again. Some changes are a must if they want my money.

[ToddG]

sigmundsauer -- I think the slide release lever issue has a great deal to do with hand size and whether the shooter realizes what's going on. I've seen plenty of people adapt to it with no problem whatsoever. It never caused me any heartache. But I see a lot of guys who have a lot of time behind a 1911 or Glock (or both) who've become so accustomed to that thumb position that they just can't get past the mental block of shifting the thumb a fraction of an inch.

Having said that, after a year and a half shooting M&Ps, if I pick up a SIG now there's a fair chance I'll ride the slide release unless I'm very conscious about it (read: not under stress).

variable -- The beavertail is not offered on all guns, and in fact is usually found only on their "premium" level guns like the Elites. Getting an SRT'd non-beavertail gun is as simple as getting hold of the two SRT parts (sear & safety lever) and dropping them in the gun.

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

Damn, I don't even have my Sig X-five Tac in hand and you guys are already bumming me out. How could something with the words "beaver" and "tail" be so bad ;(

Is a one competition shooter on their staff going to have that much of an effect on their designs? Kind of interesting that all their MIL/LEO exposure didn't catalyze change, but one comp guy will.

The two guns I shoot most are a Colt Gold Cup (and that really needed a beavertail for my hand) and a P226. I really am moving more towards SAO guns, and the M&P and H&K guns just didn't seem right to me- even with a safety (to me the worst of both worlds, a DA/SA gun and a safety). I figured the x-five tac would get me closest to a hi-cap 9mm in SAO, and be afforadable and reliable out of the box, and have mag compatibility with the P226.

[ToddG]

Is a one competition shooter on their staff going to have that much of an effect on their designs? Kind of interesting that all their MIL/LEO exposure didn't catalyze change, but one comp guy will.

Like most companies, SIG has had personnel and management changes. They've also started losing LE market share again (after a lot of money and effort was spent getting them back into good position in the earlier part of the decade).

Given the way SIG has dealt with competition shooters in the past, we were all really surprised to see the huge marketing blitz the company has put behind Max. Clearly, they're finally listening to a real gun guy about improving their guns.

So yes, I think you can expect one competition shooter -- when it's someone at Max's level -- to have a big effect on the company if the CEO is serious about improving the guns.

[olds442tyguy]

I like the features of the Elite, except the beaver tail. :o

Now if Sig could just get the 220 Carry to run consistently, offered a 220C Elite without a BT, and Hogue got their G10 grips out I'd be all over it.