View Full Version : I guess even Colt screws up.
Sttrongbow
02-09-09, 16:04
So, my brand new Colt 6920 arrives, and she is pretty. Only one problem.... the friggin' FSB is CANTED. I kid you not. Canted. It need full right adjustment on the BUIS to get it aligned. If I recall correctly this could lead to short-stroking problems due to mis-alignment with the gas port. Colt hasn't returned calls so far. I assume I need to get it to a gunsmith to get this problem fixed? Could someone like ADCO do it?
I'd sell that rifle to Bushmaster/DPMS for 100 grand. They would love to use that rifle to boost their rep.
Sttrongbow
02-09-09, 16:09
I'd sell that rifle to Bushmaster/DPMS for 100 grand. They would love to use that rifle to boost their rep.
LOL... man... I must be the unluckiest guy the universe. I gotta be banking Karma on this one....
Jay Cunningham
02-09-09, 16:10
All mfgrs. will occasionally put out a lemon. ADCO could easily fix this, if it is truly just a simple canted FSB. Can you post a pic?
So, my brand new Colt 6920 arrives, and she is pretty. Only one problem.... the friggin' FSB is CANTED. I kid you not. Canted. It need full right adjustment on the BUIS to get it aligned. If I recall correctly this could lead to short-stroking problems due to mis-alignment with the gas port. Colt hasn't returned calls so far. I assume I need to get it to a gunsmith to get this problem fixed? Could someone like ADCO do it?
Question, how may windage clicks is it to zero the weapon?
C4
Sttrongbow
02-09-09, 16:23
I lost count! It's about 3 clicks from full right adjustment on the ARMS 40L BUIS. Once I ID'd the problem, the cant is visible. I'll post pics this evening.
If it takes more than 11 clicks in each direction to zero the weapon then its out of spec.
PRGGodfather
02-09-09, 16:44
As my good friend Andy Faircloth is fond of saying, "There are Monday guns, Wednesday guns and Friday guns. You have to figure out which day you got."
As my good friend Andy Faircloth is fond of saying, "There are Monday guns, Wednesday guns and Friday guns. You have to figure out which day you got."
lol!! good quote :D
All mfgrs. will occasionally put out a lemon. ADCO could easily fix this, if it is truly just a simple canted FSB. Can you post a pic?
The gun needs to go back to the manufacturer.
I lost count! It's about 3 clicks from full right adjustment on the ARMS 40L BUIS. Once I ID'd the problem, the cant is visible. I'll post pics this evening.
3 clicks from the side or 3 clicks from the center.
Per the TDP you can be 22 clicks from center & be in spec.
C4
3 clicks from the side or 3 clicks from the center.
Per the TDP you can be 22 clicks from center & be in spec.
C4
i'm not willing to **** up my zeros, or i'd just find out myself- how far IS 22 clicks? 5/32nds? 3/16ths?
Sttrongbow
02-09-09, 18:50
3 clicks from the side or 3 clicks from the center.
Per the TDP you can be 22 clicks from center & be in spec.
C4
OK, I counted (I have it co-witnessed with the RDS. It's 31 clicks to the right.
Sttrongbow
02-09-09, 19:03
Here's some pics. The forearm rails are DD Omega 7.0's, but they are very well aligned to the flat top, so they are a reasonable reference.
http://i718.photobucket.com/albums/ww189/mpsmith47304/IMG_0968.jpg
http://i718.photobucket.com/albums/ww189/mpsmith47304/IMG_0966.jpg
Jay Cunningham
02-09-09, 19:14
You said "brand new" - is this literally a NIB from-the-factory LE6920?
Does Colt ship 6920 with rails.
Heavy Metal
02-09-09, 19:54
Is the sight canted or is the rail canted?
Sttrongbow
02-09-09, 20:31
You said "brand new" - is this literally a NIB from-the-factory LE6920?
I bought the upper and lower separately. Both were new when I got them. It's possible the upper was used, I suppose, but it shows no sign of wear. The upper is all colt marked (barrel and upper), so I don't think I got taken on a "parts" gun. The gun fired reliably on zeroing using XM193.
Sttrongbow
02-09-09, 20:32
Does Colt ship 6920 with rails.
The upper came with M4 handguards. I added the rails. (DD Omega 7.0's, so no need to remove FSB)
Sttrongbow
02-09-09, 20:35
Is the sight canted or is the rail canted?
I checked that carefully. The railed forearm is aligned with the flattop receiver. If I rotate the rails sufficiently to align with teh FSB, the mis-match with the upper is obvious. Further, the cant is discernable just looking through the glass of the EOtech. I tried taking a photo of that, but it didn't come out. These are the sort of things I'm looking for I guess.... I want to be sure I have a problem before sending the upper off to get fixed.
i'm not willing to **** up my zeros, or i'd just find out myself- how far IS 22 clicks? 5/32nds? 3/16ths?
So if someone handled your rifle and dialed a bunch of windage into it when you weren't looking what would you do?
If I recall correctly this could lead to short-stroking problems due to mis-alignment with the gas port.
Not necessarily. So the upper came with a rail installed? Is it possible that some peckerwood that had no business working on the thing took the receiver off of the barrel and reinstalled it incorrectly?
Sttrongbow
02-09-09, 21:25
Not necessarily. So the upper came with a rail installed? Is it possible that some peckerwood that had no business working on the thing took the receiver off of the barrel and reinstalled it incorrectly?
No, it came with M4 handguards. I installed the DD Omega (2 peice free-float). Though I can;t rule out a nimrod. If i send it to SAW, they should be able to tell me why it's fooked.
So if someone handled your rifle and dialed a bunch of windage into it when you weren't looking what would you do?
Shoot him from close enough range that windage wouldn't matter?
Shoot him from close enough range that windage wouldn't matter?
Hehe...
So if someone handled your rifle and dialed a bunch of windage into it when you weren't looking what would you do?
i'd re-zero it once i noticed i wasn't hitting anything. i've never tried to mark my sites- why, what would you do?
I thought that Colt used a jig to space and drill the FSB pin holes appropriately so that the FSB would always line up correctly. I would send it the Ken Elmore and have him take a look at it.
i'd re-zero it once i noticed i wasn't hitting anything. i've never tried to mark my sites- why, what would you do?
Here's what I do. It's a little trick that an instructor taught us once, and saved me when I loaned a rifle to a coworker.
You have your zero. Then you roll your windage ALL the way left while counting the clicks. Then if someone messes with your sights, you simply roll the windage all the way left an come back "right 42 clicks" for example. You're back to your zero without firing a shot.
I had the above mentioned coworker dial windage into my gun because the rear sight didn't "look" centered. :rolleyes: I was able to retrieve my zero with out having to shoot all over again.
(oh yeah.... I also write the number of clicks in perm marker on the rear sight housing since I'll surely forget if I ever need it)
Not necessarily. So the upper came with a rail installed? Is it possible that some peckerwood that had no business working on the thing took the receiver off of the barrel and reinstalled it incorrectly?
What I am wondering is if someone installed a rail (and removed the FSB).
OP, are their any indications that someone punched out the FSB pins?
C4
Sttrongbow
02-10-09, 10:04
What I am wondering is if someone installed a rail (and removed the FSB).
OP, are their any indications that someone punched out the FSB pins?
C4
Hey Grant,
Not to my eye, but I'm kinda untrained on the matter. There are no obvious signs that the FSB was removed, but I certainly can't rule it out. In fact, I'm kinda suspicious about it.
In any case, I've contacted Ken Elmore and he's agreed to fix it for me.
Yeah! You should probably be able to see if the pins have been drifted out.
Maybe it hasn't been boogered with though.
Let us know what Ken says in either case. :cool:
Sttrongbow
02-10-09, 11:21
Yeah... I dunno. Looking at the barrel, there are scuffs that look like the sight might have been removed and replaced. I'm beginning to think I was unfair to Colt in the thread title. But like I said, I'm not an expert. I'm gonna pay someone who is to fix it right. Seems like Ken knows his Colts pretty well. ;)
Mike
Indeed. Ken will be able to map it out for sure.
I have Colts where there are press marks on the FSB from driving the pins into the assembly.
There shouldn't be markings on the narrower end of the taper pins, or anything on that side of the FSB.
So, my brand new Colt 6920 arrives, and she is pretty. Only one problem.... the friggin' FSB is CANTED. I kid you not. Canted. It need full right adjustment on the BUIS to get it aligned. If I recall correctly this could lead to short-stroking problems due to mis-alignment with the gas port. Colt hasn't returned calls so far. I assume I need to get it to a gunsmith to get this problem fixed? Could someone like ADCO do it?
Send it back to Colt for repair under warranty.
Jay Cunningham
02-10-09, 11:59
Send it back to Colt for repair under warranty.
If Colt didn't release it from the factory like that then that is probably a silly idea.
Sttrongbow
02-10-09, 12:11
If Colt didn't release it from the factory like that then that is probably a silly idea.
Right. And I am not sure they did. So, off to Ken it goes.
Sometimes even the best make mistakes. My, and a few others I know, LMT Piston had to go back without firing a single shot. Chambers were well out of spec and wouldn't even chamber a round.
If Colt didn't release it from the factory like that then that is probably a silly idea.
If that is the case then I would swap barrels rather than trying to fix a messed up front sight base.
Sttrongbow
02-10-09, 19:24
Welp, if Ken Elmore thinks it's fixable, then then that's a relatively cheap fix compared to the cost of a new barrel. And I trust Ken's judgment on this matter. If it's not fixable, well that's another matter and I'll cross that bridge when I get there.
My first AR was a Colt and I had the same kinda thing, It looked like someone took the rifle apart and didn't line everything back up. When I sent it back Colt told me I had done it and it wasn't covered.
Yeah even colt can mess up. My friends 6920 is a POS and he is having problems dealing with Colt. Of course I don't think this is in any way normal for Colt but it does happen.
I also think its in who you talk to at Colt (or any dealer). If they had a bad day you don't seem to get as far.
I just got a 6920 last month and my FS does not have the marks shown in your pictures. No expert here but I doubt if that is the way it came from Colt. Definately looks like somebody had it in a vice.
I would think there would be an open position on the assembly line if in fact somebody let that leave the building in that condition.
Good luck with trying to get Colt to step up to the plate. Mid November I received a Colt 6920 NIB from Clyde Armory. It had quite a few scratches and dings on the carrying handle. It didn't bother me at first, but every time I saw the marks it grew on me more. Well, I called Colt and the guy I talked to was pretty rude; and said I needed to talk to Clyde Armory, and they(Colt) had nothing to do with it. I still haven't shot it yet, and it will probably be my last Colt purchase after buying 2 others brand new in the box AR15's from them.
Don't get me wrong, I'm glad I bought the rifle; but treating someone the way that prick treated me is just wrong. Especially when I'm buying the product that feeds the company that puts food in his family's mouth.
A couple people have told me that Colt doesn't like the public getting ahold of the 6920's, and that's why I was treated in the manner which I was treated. Clyde Armory told me to just be happy I got one.
Good luck with your canted issue.
LRRP-87, I have contacted Colt many times in the past on different issues (no product deficiencies) and no one was ever "short" with me. However, I have purchased what I thought was a NIB 6721 only to find out that the dealer has handled the firearm and put scratches on it.
I'm not making this up; and I'm pretty sure that Clyde Armory is a respectable business. Doesn't really matter though; as I can probably never afford another Colt the way prices are now. I was suprised by the way I was treated though; I had better expectations from Colt customer service.:(
I have come to grips with the fact that a carring handle is minor, and the functionality of the rifle is what counts in the long run. Maybe the guy at Clyde Armory said I should just be happy with getting one; because in actuality he may have needed a new upper carrying handle and switched them out; I never will know the answer to the question . The box had been opened before I received it at my FFL dealers shop.(Who by the way I trust as a friend, have known for around 4 years, and work part-time for. He already has 5 6920's new in the box sitting in the shop's vault cage.)
LRRP,
Not saying that you didn't get a "lemon" or that you weren't treated shabbily, but it isn't unheard of for dealers to do such crap and then pass the buck knowing that the weapon will sell regardless. Some of then have done worse like pull parts off and substitute them with cheap crap, etc..
I am a firm believer that if you don't get the right answer the first time, you call or email until you do. That's what I did with EOTech.
I'm not making this up; and I'm pretty sure that Clyde Armory is a respectable business. Doesn't really matter though; as I can probably never afford another Colt the way prices are now. I was suprised by the way I was treated though; I had better expectations from Colt customer service.:(
I have come to grips with the fact that a carring handle is minor, and the functionality of the rifle is what counts in the long run. Maybe the guy at Clyde Armory said I should just be happy with getting one; because in actuality he may have needed a new upper carrying handle and switched them out; I never will know the answer to the question . The box had been opened before I received it at my FFL dealers shop.(Who by the way I trust as a friend, have known for around 4 years, and work part-time for. He already has 5 6920's new in the box sitting in the shop's vault cage.)
Take the 6920 out and use it and after awhile the carry handle will look better than the rest of the carbine.:D
You have your zero. Then you roll your windage ALL the way left while counting the clicks. Then if someone messes with your sights, you simply roll the windage all the way left an come back "right 42 clicks" for example. You're back to your zero without firing a shot.
sweet.. thanks for the tip. one of those things you'd think would be obvious, but aint until someone shows you.
Take the 6920 out and use it and after awhile the carry handle will look better than the rest of the carbine.:D
Was thinking the same thing.
LRRP-87, FWIW the receiving dealer is required to log the gun in to his FFL log book, and to do that he has to open the box. When I was selling guns we had more than one gun come in that didn't match the serial number on the box, and at least one that wasn't the same gun at all. You have to open every box as soon as it comes in and get them logged in. This was always the first thing we did after UPS came every day.
these things happen :(
anyway this could be a good reason to mod your carbine a bit by adding a new gas block/front sight ;)
Robb Jensen
02-11-09, 05:51
I see barrels/FSB sometimes canted to the shooters right. Most of the time this is because the barrel nut was torqued while the barrel was held by barrel blocks instead of the better way an upper receiver block. It's noticed at the FSB but it's the whole barrel which is canted. You can't really tell at the barrel extension area because it's close to the center line of the bore, it's noticed at the FSB because it's further away from the center of the bore. I've also see some really bad FSBs where they were actually not canted just milled off center. I saw one on a higher end AR company just a few months ago where it appeared that the FSB wasn't canted but it appeared to be about 3/16" more to the left side of the gun than the right. It just had more metal on that side.
Sometimes FSBs will be canted to the shooters left if the person did use an upper receiver block but overtorqued the barrel which can cause the indexing notch in the receiver to enlarge and/or some shearing of the barrel extension pin. When this happens the fix can be a new indexing pin, a new upper receiver or sometimes as simple as having someone hold a piece of wood like a wooden handle of a small hammer through the FSB and hold it to the shooters right while the barrel nut it torqued.
Sttrongbow
02-11-09, 06:13
Wow, learning a lot from this. Thanks guys! I've packed up the upper and shipped it off to Ken. My gunsmithing thus far has been limited to changing extractor springs. Think I'll let a pro tackle this one!
Robb,
If the barrel was canted from over-torquing the barrel nut, wouldn't the barrel alignment pin or the upper receiver be damaged? I know that all of the guns that I have re-barreled with the exception of one, the pins fit snug into the groove in the upper and something would have to have gotten damaged for the FSB to be canted.
Robb Jensen
02-11-09, 06:49
Robb,
If the barrel was canted from over-torquing the barrel nut, wouldn't the barrel alignment pin or the upper receiver be damaged? I know that all of the guns that I have re-barreled with the exception of one, the pins fit snug into the groove in the upper and something would have to have gotten damaged for the FSB to be canted.
Yep I covered that in my last paragraph. ;)
Ooooops....you ranted for so long I got lost in the topic and missed that. :p
Yep I covered that in my last paragraph. ;)
Yeah even colt can mess up. My friends 6920 is a POS and he is having problems dealing with Colt. Of course I don't think this is in any way normal for Colt but it does happen.
In what regards is it a POS?
C4
sweet.. thanks for the tip. one of those things you'd think would be obvious, but aint until someone shows you.
I would have never thought of it. I too, do not like touching my sights once zeroed. But it's a neat little trick.
Good luck with trying to get Colt to step up to the plate. Mid November I received a Colt 6920 NIB from Clyde Armory. It had quite a few scratches and dings on the carrying handle. It didn't bother me at first, but every time I saw the marks it grew on me more. Well, I called Colt and the guy I talked to was pretty rude; and said I needed to talk to Clyde Armory, and they(Colt) had nothing to do with it. I still haven't shot it yet, and it will probably be my last Colt purchase after buying 2 others brand new in the box AR15's from them.
Don't get me wrong, I'm glad I bought the rifle; but treating someone the way that prick treated me is just wrong. Especially when I'm buying the product that feeds the company that puts food in his family's mouth.
A couple people have told me that Colt doesn't like the public getting ahold of the 6920's, and that's why I was treated in the manner which I was treated. Clyde Armory told me to just be happy I got one.
Good luck with your canted issue.
Got any picks of the "damage?"
The blems could very well be Clyde Armory's fault.
One thing that people need to realize when buying a Colt is that "finish" is not the most important thing to them. If you want "pretty", you will need to buy a RRA (as this matters more to them than anything else).
C4
OldNavyGuy
02-11-09, 08:49
The gun needs to go back to the manufacturer.
i agree, this is not a problem for ADCO or any other "Smithy", take it back to where you bought it from and explain the problem and have that dealer send it back.
Welp, if Ken Elmore thinks it's fixable, then then that's a relatively cheap fix compared to the cost of a new barrel. And I trust Ken's judgment on this matter. If it's not fixable, well that's another matter and I'll cross that bridge when I get there.
FSB work begins at $100.
You can pick up a Colt new barrel like this for $300 on the aftermarket and sell the old one.
You will come out the same money wise and be left with a factory fresh FSB rather than something that has been modified.
Good luck with trying to get Colt to step up to the plate. Mid November I received a Colt 6920 NIB from Clyde Armory. It had quite a few scratches and dings on the carrying handle. It didn't bother me at first, but every time I saw the marks it grew on me more. Well, I called Colt and the guy I talked to was pretty rude; and said I needed to talk to Clyde Armory, and they(Colt) had nothing to do with it. I still haven't shot it yet, and it will probably be my last Colt purchase after buying 2 others brand new in the box AR15's from them.
Don't get me wrong, I'm glad I bought the rifle; but treating someone the way that prick treated me is just wrong. Especially when I'm buying the product that feeds the company that puts food in his family's mouth.
A couple people have told me that Colt doesn't like the public getting ahold of the 6920's, and that's why I was treated in the manner which I was treated. Clyde Armory told me to just be happy I got one.
Good luck with your canted issue.
I called Colt in January to order a new 2009 catalog and the guy bordered on rude when he told me to call back in February.
Got any picks of the "damage?"
The blems could very well be Clyde Armory's fault.
One thing that people need to realize when buying a Colt is that "finish" is not the most important thing to them. If you want "pretty", you will need to buy a RRA (as this matters more to them than anything else).
C4
Hey Grant, I'm totally satisfied with my 6920 and understand Colt's stand on function over finish. I've checked all the parts and guts, and they are correct. Hell I'll probably lose the carrying handle once my work picks back up and I can add some more custom parts.
The reason I haven't shot the 6920 yet is because I live in the arctic; and I trust it will run like a top(just like the other Colts I've owned.) Also this is not my only AR15 platform.
One thing I realize the more I visit this forum is that it's very imformative, and ROCKS! Thanks guys.:D
Good luck with trying to get Colt to step up to the plate. Mid November I received a Colt 6920 NIB from Clyde Armory. It had quite a few scratches and dings on the carrying handle. It didn't bother me at first, but every time I saw the marks it grew on me more. Well, I called Colt and the guy I talked to was pretty rude; and said I needed to talk to Clyde Armory, and they(Colt) had nothing to do with it. I still haven't shot it yet, and it will probably be my last Colt purchase after buying 2 others brand new in the box AR15's from them.
Don't get me wrong, I'm glad I bought the rifle; but treating someone the way that prick treated me is just wrong. Especially when I'm buying the product that feeds the company that puts food in his family's mouth.
A couple people have told me that Colt doesn't like the public getting ahold of the 6920's, and that's why I was treated in the manner which I was treated. Clyde Armory told me to just be happy I got one.
Good luck with your canted issue.
I've made several purchases from Clyde Armory for Colt carbines. They were always exceptionally helpful and the guns were GTG.
Colt is much more down to business and professional, but not altogether unfriendly. Their target end-user is unlikely to be concerned with such petty issues as blems on the carry handle, so it's not unthinkable that they were less enthusiastic about it.
Shoot it and drive on.
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