drop safe question

[moonshot]

I'm about to show how ignorant I am. I've only had a long gun for about two years now, and I've had an AR for about 1 1/2 years. When I took my 1st and only (so far) carbine class last summer, at no time did anyone ever mention that the AR was not drop safe. If they did, I sure missed it.

This may be old new to you, but it's new to me. Just read it for the first time tonight, and I admit I am a little surprised. Just how serious is this from a safety stand point? I know several models of handgun do not have drop safeties, and perhaps no military or military style rifle does either.

While keeping the weapon under control is always a sound idea, shit happens. How likely is it for a round to fire if the AR is dropped? From how high? At what angle? Is this why you all strongly recommend a sling (I thought it was for convenience only).

My Glock has no manual safety, but is drop safe. A good thing too, as I've been to classes when Glock's were dropped. Should I be concerned about a lack of drop safety in my rifle or not (I assume not, as none of your are).

Will the safety, if engaged, prevent a round from firing if rifle is dropped? If not, what happens if you are moving and trip? I could see a real possibility of the rifle hitting hard, stock first, as you go down.

Is this a "sleeping safety issue" , or am I just being overly worried? Just trying to learn.

[Jay Cunningham]

The AR-15 is indeed not drop-safe. However you would probably have to drop it out of a 7 story building for it to go off - unless it landed perfectly vertically on it's muzzle, in which case you'd only need about a 3 story drop.

[moonshot]

This exchange from how to store a home defense AR...


Condition 1 just like a 1911 Semi Auto. Absolutely no negatives to having one in the tube with the safety on, and one less thing to think about when you need it NOW!


Except if you accidentally bang the buttstock, it could slam fire as the bolt will release and slam forward. Thick primers prevent this but you never know. Saw this happen too many times with blanks in an M16. And that was with military hard primers.

and this...


i can think of a negative, kind of a big one too.

want to keep a weapon with a round in the chamber, do it with a weapon with a firing pin block.

my nightstand SIG always has a round in the chamber. my HD AR is kept "cruiser ready"

we keep having to go over this too.... ARs are not drop-safe

From my read of the above series of posts, it seems the opinion of the experts is that an AR can discharge a round if dropped from far less than 7-stories. Seems like it can fire if simply knocked over (although it also seems to imply the bolt needs to be back in order for it to "slam forward". If that could cause it to fire, why wouldn't the AR fire when the bolt was released intentionally via the bolt release)?

My AR is not drop safe. I get that. I'm not knocking the AR platform either. For all I know, no military-style rifle is drop safe. Perhaps most wouldn't want it drop safe if it were an option. I just don't know.

What I would really like to know is from just how high must my AR fall, or just how hard must it slam into the ground, and what part of the frame needs to hit the ground, for it to risk an inertia-fire? Assume bolt forward, safety both engaged and disengaged.

Does ammo matter? Most of my ammo is non-military Black Hills 223. Don't know if those primers are considered hard or not.

[Iraqgunz]

Most of what you read was taken out of context. I believe the second paragraph had to do with an AR that had the bolt locked back, on fire and a loaded magazine in the mag well. Personally I wouldn't be worried about any of the stuff that cited below.


This exchange from how to store a home defense AR...





and this...



From my read of the above series of posts, it seems the opinion of the experts is that an AR can discharge a round if dropped from far less than 7-stories. Seems like it can fire if simply knocked over (although it also seems to imply the bolt needs to be back in order for it to "slam forward". If that could cause it to fire, why wouldn't the AR fire when the bolt was released intentionally via the bolt release)?

My AR is not drop safe. I get that. I'm not knocking the AR platform either. For all I know, no military-style rifle is drop safe. Perhaps most wouldn't want it drop safe if it were an option. I just don't know.

What I would really like to know is from just how high must my AR fall, or just how hard must it slam into the ground, and what part of the frame needs to hit the ground, for it to risk an inertia-fire? Assume bolt forward, safety both engaged and disengaged.

Does ammo matter? Most of my ammo is non-military Black Hills 223. Don't know if those primers are considered hard or not.

[Jerm]

Can anyone tell me if a two-stage trigger would be "more/less drop safe"(SSA specifically).

Ive heard that they arent as safe,but i always assumed it was mentioned because of the lighter trigger and possible a AD/ND.Hadnt thought about the drop issue in regards to the two-stage triggers.

[Ridge_Runner_5]

Trigger wont make a difference on drop safety on an AR...the problem is the firing pin just floats in the bolt...if you drop straight down on the muzzle with enough force, it is possible for the pin to hit the cartridge with enough energy to pop the primer...

Some manufacturers offer a spring-loaded firing pin where a spring will hold it away from the cartridge until the hammer forces it forward...its still not fail safe, but its safer than no spring...

[Jerm]

the problem is the firing pin just floats in the bolt...if you drop straight down on the muzzle with enough force, it is possible for the pin to hit the cartridge with enough energy to pop the primer...

Thanks.

That seems very unlikely.

[Iraqgunz]

Chances are you will win your states lottery first before it happens. YMMV.


Thanks.

That seems very unlikely.

[Jerm]

Yeah,it would never have even occurred to me.Thats why i assumed the concerns were with the hammer letting loose.

[UVvis]

Also consider that the bolt slams shut on a live round every time you fire the weapon, or release the bolt catch on a live round. I've yet to have a round fire when I did this procedure.

[Ridge_Runner_5]

Also consider that the bolt slams shut on a live round every time you fire the weapon, or release the bolt catch on a live round. I've yet to have a round fire when I did this procedure.

^^^Yep. I figured if loading the chamber on any weapon were to result in an AD, it would have been this gun...not a problem yet, though!

UVvis, when ya gonna be back in town?

[Failure2Stop]

I have seen horrible things happen to AR based guns- being blown up, run over, and dropped from several stories onto asphault. None of them fired the round that was chambered.

I have never heard a credible tale of a milspec AR firing under any condition other than when the safety was on fire and the trigger pulled- except for cook-offs. While there may be documented evidence to the contrary, I have not seen any, or had anyone provide any when challenged. I am not saying that it can't happen, or that it hasn't happend, but rather that it is very unlikely that a fall from a realisitc height will impart enough force to the firing pin to fire the cartridge, and probably only a little more likely that the fall could cause the hammer to slip from the sear.

[UVvis]

I have never heard a credible tale of a milspec AR firing under any condition other than when the safety was on fire and the trigger pulled- except for cook-offs. While there may be documented evidence to the contrary, I have not seen any, or had anyone provide any when challenged. I am not saying that it can't happen, or that it hasn't happend, but rather that it is very unlikely that a fall from a realisitc height will impart enough force to the firing pin to fire the cartridge, and probably only a little more likely that the fall could cause the hammer to slip from the sear.

I possibly saw one at a high power match with a guy shooting an F class gun. I'm not sure if it was a slamfire, or if his hammer was following the bcg home, or high primers, or a combo of the above. Either way, there wasn't much standard about that gun, or the shooter if I remember right.


UVvis, when ya gonna be back in town? C-17 should be giving me a ride tomorrow. Should be getting my life reassembled in March. LC-130's are heading away, one just buzzed us as I was typing this... :D

[Ridge_Runner_5]

C-17 should be giving me a ride tomorrow. Should be getting my life reassembled in March. LC-130's are heading away, one just buzzed us as I was typing this... :D

Glad to hear it! :) We'll have to meet up at Cherry Creek again sometime...

[moonshot]

Okay, thanks for all the input. I wish the AR was drop safe, but it sounds like one would have to work at it to get it to fire without pressing the trigger.

Failure2stop - you wrote...


I have never heard a credible tale of a milspec AR firing under any condition other than when the safety was on fire and the trigger pulled- except for cook-offs.

I know the term "milspec" is overused, and not completely understood (at least be me). Would I be correct in stating my LMT Defender lower / BCM midlength upper with LMT SA BCG will be milspec? (I said will be, as I'm still waiting on the upper and the BCG). How about my stock Bushmaster XM15 E2S?

[Failure2Stop]

I know the term "milspec" is overused, and not completely understood (at least be me). Would I be correct in stating my LMT Defender lower / BCM midlength upper with LMT SA BCG will be milspec? (I said will be, as I'm still waiting on the upper and the BCG). How about my stock Bushmaster XM15 E2S?

I am referring to ARs issued by Uncle Sam to military forces (at the time FN and Colt). As such, technically, no you do not have a milspec fire control group (FCG). However- the LMT is one of the ones that is about as close to milspec as you can get without signing on the dotted line. I do not see any reason that a FA or burst FCG would be more resistant to mechanical failure than a SA FCG, other than the individual quality of the FCG parts.

I do not mean to imply that slam-fires or FCG failures are impossible, just that in my experience the "non-drop safe" design fretting of the AR is overblown. Once weird parts and ammo are introduced into the equation (as UVvis brought up) I have much less knowledge and credibility- hence my caveat of milspec guns (I should have included ammo as well). Further, I omitted slam-fires since the discussion centered on the "drop" issue. There are reports of repeatedly chambered rounds having desensitized primers and incidents of slam-fires.

[trunkmonkey]

I've never heard of ANY AR, milspec or not being dropped from a reasonable (8 stories is not reasonable) distance and firing itself. When nato ammo is being used anyhow.

Like was stated above, you've got a better chance of winning the lotto.


Saw one get dropped from about 4 stories once when a sling came loose. bent the barrel but no bang.

[markm]

What if you drop a safe onto the gun?

The safe would have to be milspec no?

[Jerm]

What if you drop a safe onto the gun?

I think i seen that on youtube.

[Jay Cunningham]

Keep on topic, please.

[moonshot]

OK, I've got a few more questions.

As I understand things, my LMT lower should be about as good to go as I'm going to get without joining the Armed Forces. Considering the low esteem many hold for the Bushmaster, I'll assume the same opinion does not apply to my Bushy.

Once my BCM upper comes in, I may sell off my Bushy, as I could use the money, but I have not made up my mind. If I decide to keep it, would I be better off replacing the FCG with a "better" one? Perhaps getting Grant's LPK and swapping out everything?

Replacing stock Bushmaster parts with better parts may never be a bad idea, but I am asking strictly on the basis of improving safety. Improving reliability and durability are valid points, but not directly related to this thread.

Another question...military ammo has been mentioned as being less prone to going off unintentionally. Hard primers perhaps being the reason. My ammo is almost all Black Hills non-military .223, with some Hornady .223 in the mix. Anything I should be concerned about?

[Failure2Stop]

Once my BCM upper comes in, I may sell off my Bushy, as I could use the money, but I have not made up my mind. If I decide to keep it, would I be better off replacing the FCG with a "better" one? Perhaps getting Grant's LPK and swapping out everything?

I would not want to lose a lower in the current political situation. Further, I would not lose sleep over the BM FCG. Sure, it's good to have a spare LKP in the event that you break something, and I would prefer to have a good spare kit than a bad one, or none at all.

Bear in mind that BMs have been carried for some time by a whole lot of PMCs in the box, as well as a whole lot of cops and average earth-people in the US- how many reports are there of dropped guns firing?



My ammo is almost all Black Hills non-military .223, with some Hornady .223 in the mix. Anything I should be concerned about?

I'm not. Just be smart about it- don't keep chambering the same round. If it has been chambered, rotate it to the bottom of the mag and rotate the ammo to the training box once the whole mag has been chambered.