View Full Version : Pistol Peer Pressure
This is a repost of a something I wrote on another forum. I got some interesting responses and it is something I've been restling over recently. Thought I'd post it over here to see what you all think.
Pistol Peer Pressure
Had a conversation with a couple of co-workers the other night at work. The two guys I was talking to are both members of our department SWAT team and I'm a patrol rifleman who will probably join the team in the next couple years so we're all avid gun guys. All three of us currently carry high-dollar 1911's at work (I have an Action Works Colt...they have Wilsons).
We were discussing our pistol selection and how complex pistol choices have become. We were reminiscing on the days when at our department you pretty much carried an issued S&W 5906, a Beretta 92, a Sig 226/228 or a Glock 17. The H&K USP eventually got thrown in there, but the aforementioned pistols were pretty much it. You either carried it in a Safariland 070 or if you were more daring a 6280. No lights, no fancy grips and crap, just plain simple guns.
So why can't we go back to that? We all still have our stamped-steel slide 226 9mm's sitting in our safes or in the back of our lockers. Why don't we just say screw it and return to simplicity? In reality, all three of us agreed we were happier with the 226 and would go back to it in a heartbeat. So why not? The simple answer: PEER PRESSURE. The amount of crap we'd take for abandoning 1911's with lights mounted to go back to the simple rail-less 226 in the diminutive 9mm round.
We pretty much decided that in the last few years we've been force fed by the gun companies, the magazines and by our buddies that our guns have to be "tactical" with lights and that JMB's design when massaged over by guys with name like Yost, Les, Bill or the uber tactical Nighthawk are the pinnacle of perfection and what we should all strive for and that it somehow adds inches to your manhood. Well, I guess I've reached it. I hate to break it to you all, but I carry one of those and it ain't any more special than carrying a Sig 220...same amount of rounds and they both put holes in the target the same way...be it paper or a person. They're just heavier and more expensive and you'll cry when it gets scratched.
1911's are great combat weapons, both the original Colts, Singers and Remington-Rands, etc as well as the modern examples. Picking up a Nighthawk vs. a Springfield Loaded and you can see where the extra money goes. However, when it really comes down to it, I don't feel I really shoot one of these any better than I do my old 226 or my friend's ten year old 220.
The point I'm making is not meant to be a 1911 vs. Sig vs. Glock vs. (Insert X here)...it is not meant to be a 9mm vs. 40 S&W vs. 45 ACP argument either...My point is that we often let others...be they co-workers, instructors or guys in a gun magazine...dictate our firearms choice and what we choose to carry. Yes, Ken Hackathorn and Larry Vickers know stuff, but so do plenty of other countless people that aren't so famous that choose to carry different guns. My point is that firearms selection should be a personal choice and that we face pistol peer pressure.
I haven't decided to dump my 1911…yet. I'm just having deep thoughts here and thinking about how much we have complicated such a simple subject. I've been on the quest for the perfect carry gun for years. I personally think I found it years ago and that it wore a K-Kote finish and these funny looking eagle stamps on the bottom of the slide and side of the frame. I should have stuck with it and have been chasing my tail ever since.
We all have to face pistol peer pressure. I say screw it!
My first pistol out of the academy was a Glock 17. After switching to the Glock 22, I decided I wasn't happy with it and I tried out a high dollar 1911.
The 1911 is a fantastic gun, and a pleasure to shoot, but after six months I switched back to a Glock 17. The 1911 was heavier, it took more time and effort to keep it in great shape, and I didn't want to worry about it getting rained on or scratched while I was wrestling some guy on the ground!
For me, the Glock is the ideal patrol officer gun.
I get teased for shooting my short barreled carry guns at the local matches (was Subcompact Glocks and now Compact S&W M&Ps). Guys think I can improve my score with a longer barrel.
Maybe they are right but I always tell them that I shoot what I carry. I have pistols that I don't carry such as a .44mag or .22lr but I don't take them to a IDPA or USPSA match because when I am shooting a match I want to be practicing my defensive skills rather than trying to win the match.
I don't have any problem with someone who wants to win and who brings the weapon they feel gives them the best chance. I however am seeking to improve my chances of staying alive or keeping my loved ones safe. That is my priority and is why I switched from Glocks to M&Ps; because I shoot the M&Ps better.
Lots of folks don't learn in high school that following the crowd or letting keeping others happy so they don't tease you will never allow you to make the best choices for yourself.
I was the only guy in my school who wore boots and worked horses everyday. I got laughed at for being bowlegged but the truth was that several of the hockey players were more bowlegged than me.
I stayed true to myself and made a career of horse training for a number of years. Many spend their whole lives following the herd and then wonder why they aren't happy.....
It is easy to get caught up in trends, I sometimes miss the Glocks as they are stupid simple to work on, but I made a choice that I would make again today.
Buckaroo
I've been a 1911 guy since MP School in 86 but dont mind being mandated to carry the Dept issue Beretta 92 D. Hell it's there gun if it gets damaged They pay for the repair or replacement, I shoot it well and it's dead reliable. Off duty I get my 1911 fix and am happy.
This is a repost of a something I wrote on another forum. I got some interesting responses and it is something I've been restling over recently. Thought I'd post it over here to see what you all think.
Pistol Peer Pressure
Had a conversation with a couple of co-workers the other night at work. The two guys I was talking to are both members of our department SWAT team and I'm a patrol rifleman who will probably join the team in the next couple years so we're all avid gun guys. All three of us currently carry high-dollar 1911's at work (I have an Action Works Colt...they have Wilsons).
We were discussing our pistol selection and how complex pistol choices have become. We were reminiscing on the days when at our department you pretty much carried an issued S&W 5906, a Beretta 92, a Sig 226/228 or a Glock 17. The H&K USP eventually got thrown in there, but the aforementioned pistols were pretty much it. You either carried it in a Safariland 070 or if you were more daring a 6280. No lights, no fancy grips and crap, just plain simple guns.
No lights ! I don't have a light on my duty gun, and I'm [issed about it.
So why can't we go back to that? We all still have our stamped-steel slide 226 9mm's sitting in our safes or in the back of our lockers. Why don't we just say screw it and return to simplicity? In reality, all three of us agreed we were happier with the 226 and would go back to it in a heartbeat. So why not? The simple answer: PEER PRESSURE. The amount of crap we'd take for abandoning 1911's with lights mounted to go back to the simple rail-less 226 in the diminutive 9mm round.
If you were happier go back. If you don't know why many shooters/operators choose a good 1911, and can't use its advantages, then there really isn't a reason to carry one.
We pretty much decided that in the last few years we've been force fed by the gun companies, the magazines and by our buddies that our guns have to be "tactical" with lights and that JMB's design when massaged over by guys with name like Yost, Les, Bill or the uber tactical Nighthawk are the pinnacle of perfection and what we should all strive for and that it somehow adds inches to your manhood.
I truly hope you are not that easily led astray, manipulated, etc
Well, I guess I've reached it. I hate to break it to you all, but I carry one of those and it ain't any more special than carrying a Sig 220...same amount of rounds and they both put holes in the target the same way...be it paper or a person. They're just heavier and more expensive and you'll cry when it gets scratched.
Again if you can't take advantage of it......and Sigs have their trouble also.
1911's are great combat weapons, both the original Colts, Singers and Remington-Rands, etc as well as the modern examples. Picking up a Nighthawk vs. a Springfield Loaded and you can see where the extra money goes. However, when it really comes down to it, I don't feel I really shoot one of these any better than I do my old 226 or my friend's ten year old 220.
See above
The point I'm making is not meant to be a 1911 vs. Sig vs. Glock vs. (Insert X here)...it is not meant to be a 9mm vs. 40 S&W vs. 45 ACP argument either...
But it will go that way, as they always do.
My point is that we often let others...be they co-workers, instructors or guys in a gun magazine...dictate our firearms choice and what we choose to carry. Yes, Ken Hackathorn and Larry Vickers know stuff,
Both will tell you quite quickly that a 1911 is not perfect, and highly recommend G17's.
but so do plenty of other countless people that aren't so famous that choose to carry different guns.
Many of whom run and recommend 1911's. Just about the entire ABQ SWAT team runs them, along with many of the patrol guys. Its almost comical to suggest something else to them....almost.
My point is that firearms selection should be a personal choice and that we face pistol peer pressure.
Personal choice, yep, peer pressure? Nope, or at least not me.
I haven't decided to dump my 1911…yet. I'm just having deep thoughts here and thinking about how much we have complicated such a simple subject. I've been on the quest for the perfect carry gun for years. I personally think I found it years ago and that it wore a K-Kote finish and these funny looking eagle stamps on the bottom of the slide and side of the frame. I should have stuck with it and have been chasing my tail ever since.
Then go with it, you don't have to justify it to us.
We all have to face pistol peer pressure. I say screw it!
I shot a 1911 for along time, since I was taught to shoot it by the original armorer mentioned in Col. Beckwith's book. Back then, and up until recently is was the optimal choice. Not so much today.
I have decided to move on, more or less.
What I don't like to see is the sorta reverse elitism that starts to permeate some venues. While not long ago, the attitude you describe may have been prevalent, you now are seeing a lot of the opposite. That some how a high dollar 1911, with a light no less, is the sign of the uninitiated, or "sheep". Same goes for AR's, and their accessories.
You and your fellow officers may have been led to believe something and feel like you've been duped, but if your implying that everyone that carries a 1911, does so because of the back cover of Guns and Ammo, I'd say your wrong.
And, like I said my 1911's are in the drawer with my Ray Ban aviators and Seiko watch.
Bob
ETA: alot of shooters have "drunk the kool-aid" of the other brands you mention also.
Matt Edwards
02-16-09, 16:58
As usual, Bob is on it on all counts. Great post!
MarshallDodge
02-16-09, 17:34
There is something to be said about simplicity. I don't have a light or laser on any of my guns, but I don't have an issue with those that do.
I am not a "professional" but I do have a carry permit. My gun of choice is a 5" 1911, most of the time I carry a 4.25", and sometimes a Kahr which is very simple.
I have owned or own Sigs, 3rd gen S&W's, a Taurus PT99 (Beretta clone) and I don't find the 1911 to be complex at all. I also don't believe that you have to have a 1911 built by Wilson, Nighthawk, etc. to get one that runs good. Sure, they build a gun with good parts and an unbelievable fit and finish, but there are lower priced 1911's that I would have no issue carrying.
QuietShootr
02-16-09, 17:40
I shot a 1911 for along time, since I was taught to shoot it by the original armorer mentioned in Col. Beckwith's book. Back then, and up until recently is was the optimal choice. Not so much today.
I have decided to move on, more or less.
What I don't like to see is the sorta reverse elitism that starts to permeate some venues. While not long ago, the attitude you describe may have been prevalent, you now are seeing a lot of the opposite. That some how a high dollar 1911, with a light no less, is the sign of the uninitiated, or "sheep". Same goes for AR's, and their accessories.
You and your fellow officers may have been led to believe something and feel like you've been duped, but if your implying that everyone that carries a 1911, does so because of the back cover of Guns and Ammo, I'd say your wrong.
And, like I said my 1911's are in the drawer with my Ray Ban aviators and Seiko watch.
Bob
ETA: alot of shooters have "drunk the kool-aid" of the other brands you mention also.
Bob,
What do you carry now?
My work gun is a department issue Glock 22. If I had a choice I would carry........the Glock 22. If .45's were issued then a M&P or XD. Small hands ya know.
I am comfortable with it and accurate. I would love the option to carry a 1911 but truth be told, if I could I would still probably carry the G 22. More bullets and built to handle abuse with little care and cuddling. However, I would love to have the 1911 option for my SWAT gear.
Dave
John_Wayne777
02-16-09, 19:06
There is something to be said about simplicity. I don't have a light or laser on any of my guns, but I don't have an issue with those that do.
Lights and lasers are being discussed almost as a fashion option...they are anything but.
There is no easier way to use a handgun under stress than with a mounted light and a laser. The accuracy and effectiveness of most who use them increases significantly...which can make the difference between life and death.
Does that mean that guns without those accessories are useless or bad? Absolutely not...nevertheless, the advantages are significant and real.
Were I suiting up to go patrol tonight, I'd want a reliable handgun with a reliable mounted light and a good laser solution on my hip. Peer pressure has nothing to do with it. Trying to use weapons without those options in low light and then using weapons with those options in low light made me a believer. Since Ken's name has been invoked, he used to be a critic of lasers. Then he ran one...and the kool-aid tasted pretty good.
As to the 1911:
Are they a bit "trendy"? Sure. Many people carrying one have no idea why they are carrying one. Some, however, do know. To quote Larry Vickers on weaponology, the 1911 is still incredibly popular amongst the armed professional "...primarily because of how easy they are to shoot." It's the easiest centerfire handgun for most people to shoot under stress. When it comes down to it, the point is to put a bullet exactly where it is needed exactly when you need to do it. The 1911 is the weapon many people (both highly experienced and relatively new to shooting) find to be best suited to allow them to do that.
Yes, there's a bit of a cool dude factor with the choice of the 1911 by some...but at the core there is a very real basis that the cool guy aura was built on. Are there "better" options today? "Better" is a function of a lot of things, including expense and support of the platform. Other options on the market are perfectly adequate, hold more ammo, have fewer maintenance requirements, and cost a hell of a lot less.
I shot a 1911 for along time, since I was taught to shoot it by the original armorer mentioned in Col. Beckwith's book. Back then, and up until recently is was the optimal choice. Not so much today.
I have decided to move on, more or less.
No, Bob. Say it isn't so.
You were the one that I went to when I wanted to get back into 1911s.
Oh, the humanity:)
Seems to me the OP has received a bit of hostility here. Undeserved, IMHO.
Dude came on here and admitted that he'd made some choices about his equipment based on internet hype and peer pressure. Anyone who thinks that is uncommon doesn't deal with a lot of shooters (or agencies, or military units). I've sat in meetings with firearms units trying to deal with SWAT teams who clearly want a different gun, any different gun at all, than the regular line officers in their department ... not because they need some other capability, but simply because they're SWAT and thus they need to have something different for the sake of being different because they're SWAT and SWAT has different guns because they're ... well, you get the idea.
A buddy of mine was recently issued a .40 cal pistol and while he knows he can shoot the 9mm variant a little better, and while he believes the 9mm is just as effective from a terminal performance standpoint, he's hesitant to switch to the 9mm because of: peer pressure. He doesn't want to look like the girly man.
I've brought large-caliber guns to LE training events in the past simply because "yeah, you can do that because you have a 9mm ... we have to carry forties" got really, really old.
If you don't think a lot of people have tremendous personal pride in their chosen sidearm, if you don't think that many members of M4C are walking around with visions of Excalibur on their hips, then simply start a thread that titled "I think (brand X) sucks as a fighting gun" and watch the hair fly.
Personally, I read the OP's message as a positive one. He's realized that in the past he drank a little too much kool aid or was worried a little too much about how he looked rather than how he shot. Now he's reassessing his equipment choices based on what works, which is what many people say but not many people do. I think it's commendable, myself.
Now if you'll excuse me, I need to go finish putting the gold filigree on my M&P9.
MarshallDodge
02-16-09, 19:40
Lights and lasers are being discussed almost as a fashion option...they are anything but.
There are several reasons I don't have a light or laser on my gun, and fashion is not one of them. :)
Matt Edwards
02-16-09, 19:42
Don't worry Ed. Bob's not abandoning his 1911 collection.(not yet, anyway) On the contrary, his point was not to roll with a 1911 "just cause". If you can't take advantage of it, it may not be the gun for you, and my not be worth the "head ache".
I've seen the same circumstances in the past in regards to SWAT and .45's, in this case G21's. I've also seen the mindset that upon having a 1911 in your hand makes you a better shooter.
I agree, I think he was making a point that he drank the kool-aid and chose a gun based on that vs. what would better suite his needs.
I think Todd "gets" the point I'm trying to make.
I'm not bashing anyone's decisions on what gun to carry and I'm not trying to advocate one platform over another.
The point I'm trying to make is that many of us often buy gear and carry things not because it works well for us but because we listen to the hype and peer pressure of others.
My department issues the M&P 40. Lots of you on this forum love this gun. I know I do. Only two people on my department's SWAT team and other "tactical" oriented teams carry this gun. Why? Because it is what is issued and they just want to be different.
By the way, I don't mind a little heat from you guys. I posted this because I want to get people talking about it because I think it is an issue that people need to keep in mind when deciding what to carry.
HeadHunter
02-16-09, 23:12
Sometimes I get funny looks when I use a revolver at an IDPA match. Since I mostly carry a J frame, I like to shoot with something at least similar on a regular basis.
I bought a 1911 two years ago, after not having one for a long time. I bought a Kimber Warrior and found that I shot it better and more accurately than any of my other handguns. The Kimber was a problematical gun and is now gone; but I now own two relatively high grade 1911s.
Sometimes I get funny looks when I use a revolver at an IDPA match.
Correlation is not causation. :D
variablebinary
02-17-09, 02:47
Allowing the internet to make decisions for you is a piss poor way to buy firearms and equipment.
The hive mind might make selections that just dont work for you, period
Plus, what happens when there is a new flavor of the week, are you going to change all your gear to keep up with the Jones'
Me, I've opted to stick with my Glocks, ARMS mounts, Eotechs and USGI mags. I'm content not to be cool, but at least I got what works for me.
By the way, I don't mind a little heat from you guys. I posted this because I want to get people talking about it because I think it is an issue that people need to keep in mind when deciding what to carry. Oh I know it's true that Police Officers even though we see ourselves as sheepdogs tend to be more like sheep when it comes to equipment, we see something shiny and new and just cant live without it. My Agency is slowly transitioning from the 92D to the SIG 229 R DAK, We are already hearing complaints about issuing a railed gun without a weapon light, Somewhat justified but it would just be more weight on our pistol belts as we will still have to carry a stinger. We also have a lot of Officers who want to get away from the PR24 and go to the MEB/ASPand issue at least 1 Tazer per shift and Patrol carbines but the Federal Govt other than the FBI/DEA/ATF moves a lot slower than the Public side so we make do with what we have and hope for the best. It has kind of tempered my lemming mentality at work, I still buy guns all the time just to try something new or highly recomended but always find myself going back to either a Beretta 92 or 1911 when I'm going to be spending a day shooting or posibly going into harms way. They are what I know, train with and trust.
Bob,
What do you carry now?
I'm issued a G22 at work. I am shooting my M&P 40 more and more on my own time.
Lot of good points made, especially on what constitutes better.
I've also argued against the 1911 on this forum, just so we are tracking on that.
I took the OP as to be implying that everyone that carries a 1911, does so because of the "hype", advertising, cool guy factor, etc etc. I'm sure some do, just as many proclaim they shoot best with a 1911, when they really mean they shoot less bad.
IF you work for an organization that makes decisions based on the above criteria, you really need to re think your employment, or do the right thing, and campaign for common sense, show people the research, facts, etc etc.
I've worked at 3 different facilities that attempted a uniform change, and in all 3 cases it came down to popularity, it looks cool, or I want to or don't want to look like XXXX. The only thing I could do was champion my cause, by explaining the benefits, and show them the research, etc and hopefully MULTICAM will prevail:D
Again, its the reverse elitism that goes around. Now some how its cool to have a cheap 1911, no light, a so called KISS carbine etc etc. Then proclaim the rest of us are just living out some sorta fantasy for having high end guns and equipment.
I agree many follow the Jones, but if something truly better come along, and I can afford it, I'm moving on. To me, its better then some of the old, fat, bald, has beens/never was that continue to cling to out dated weapons, equipment and TTP's.
As for 1911's and LAV, take one of his 1911 classes, you'll learn a lot about cheap 1911's, expensive 1911's, and what he thinks about them in general.
Bob
No, Bob. Say it isn't so.
You were the one that I went to when I wanted to get back into 1911s.
Oh, the humanity:)
Sorry;)
I won't drink the M&P 9 koolaid!
Seriouly, I started shooting pistols with a series 70, would up going to USPSA Nationals, shooting an Officers Model...and didn't finish last. Sold it when I got hired and carried a 659, then a SIGMA...and longed for a Glock. Got to carry Glocks for the last 11 years in either .40 or .45. The more I shot them, the more I didn't like shooting them wanted to go back to a 1911...because I could shoot them easier / better / faster / more accurately.
1911's are not for everyone, to be sure. And, you shouldn't want one because someone else says so or the Cool Guy Factor. If you don't see demonstrable improvements in abilities shooting one, then they just aren't worth it. However, my "sphere of influence" is greatly expanded by a good 1911.
Additionally, "mission drives the gear selection" is it. I usually work in teams, even if its just two, in a covert - proactive leo setting, so a single stack 1911 will get me back to the rifle (if its not already out) or through most things that typically happen out here in my mission. If I worked in Badghad, or LA, or in uniform, or something like that, just might carry a hi cap 9...preferably in M&P flavor.
(M)any proclaim they shoot best with a 1911, when they really mean they shoot less bad.
Awesome.
Seriouly, I started shooting pistols with a series 70, would up going to USPSA Nationals, shooting an Officers Model...and didn't finish last.
So someone must have been DQ'd, is what I'm assuming. :cool:
There are several reasons I don't have a light or laser on my gun, and fashion is not one of them. :)
Do tell......
I have seen all manner of folks at the range trying to make their 1911's into some magical lightning bolt dispenser. Over the years I have seen some of the best shooting and some of the worst shooting with 1911's. Up until the last few years I pretty much was stuck on 1911's (38 super & 45) and wouldn't seriously consider anything else. However after putting thousands of rounds downrange I have come to rely on the M&P series and has pretty much replaced the 1911 as my day to day carry piece.
IF you work for an organization that makes decisions based on the above criteria, you really need to re think your employment, or do the right thing, and campaign for common sense, show people the research, facts, etc etc.
Bob Why I like my job, most of the people I work with, And most of the People we Police. Management Is willing but OSLE works at their own pace and as younger people take over the reigns of power things are changing. Our training has improved to the point that it is probably at least equal to if not better than all of the local departments. Our equipment is lagging a bit behind the times but catching up slowly.
rubberneck
02-17-09, 10:21
Awesome.
So someone must have been DQ'd, is what I'm assuming. :cool:
His gun must not have fit in the box with those damn crimson trace grips on them.:D
Why I like my job, most of the people I work with, And most of the People we Police. Management Is willing but OSLE works at their own pace and as younger people take over the reigns of power things are changing. Our training has improved to the point that it is probably at least equal to if not better than all of the local departments. Our equipment is lagging a bit behind the times but catching up slowly.
Understood, been there, and to some extent still am, the best you can do, is present the facts, research, etc. to support your position, and hope that wins over the liberal/democrat way of arguing IE: Don't confuse the issue with facts, my mind is made up....
I think we could take the OP, substitute 1911 with just about any name brand and it would be the same thing.
You should see the "discussions" I've had over the Glock not being "Perfect", and I like Glocks, but they are far from perfection.
Whether the argument is 1911 vs. Glock, 9 vs 45, AR vs AK, Aimpoint vs EoTech, etc etc the smart thing to do, is listen to what verifiable SME have to say. people like Pat Rogers, Hilton Yam, Paul Howe, Jim Smith, and yes, Larry Vickers and Ken Hackathorn, have a wealth of experience and knowledge, and it would be foolish to not listen to them. Put what they have to say into context, weigh it against your situation, and "find your own salvation".
Bob
His gun must not have fit in the box with those damn crimson trace grips on them.:D
OUCH!
Jay Cunningham
02-17-09, 10:37
This treading perilously close to "Glock vs. 1911" territory...
Peer pressure?
What happened to METT-T and documented performance? If you have the option, pick the one you shoot best.
Which do you kill with faster?
I don't care what it says on the side or how big the hole in the end is -- if the mission is to eliminate the threat as fast as possible go with the tool that performs for you.
Arguing about guns is like arguing about lipstick color. Unless you are directed by agency policy to shoot an issue gun use the one that helps you meet your mission -- otherwise you're going to screw the pooch, shoot late, shoot last, and possibly end up with holes in you or someone else on the "Blue" side.
Being fashionable is stupid. If you've drawn the handgun it's because your long gun stopped working and you need to smash the bad guy's electrics or let the air out of him NOW.
If you shoot a particular pistol "better" than your current duty pistol (1911), then there isnt really any good reason other than "peer pressure" for you to carry the 1911.
I would not discount the utility of having a light mounted on your pistol though. You could always compromise, and get a newer 226R, or a M&P9, or other rail framed pistol to replace your 1911.
I have long since gotten over the "Man's caliber .45 vs. Womens caliber 9mm" circle jerk that most of us in the LE profession get involved in.
Pistol peer pressure. Good post and an interesting observation. Some cops are shooters. Some arent. I have several co workers that dont even own off duty guns. They are at one extreme. The guns of the month guys are at the other extreme.
I am issued a non railed P220. I have grown to like it. The thought of not carrying my Gunsite Govmnt .45 made me want to hyperventilate when I started as a cop. Given a choice, I would now stick with my P220, maybe my P228.
MarshallDodge
02-17-09, 12:36
There are several reasons I don't have a light or laser on my gun, and fashion is not one of them.
Do tell......
I have seen all manner of folks at the range trying to make their 1911's into some magical lightning bolt dispenser.
One of my main reasons for not carrying a light or laser on my gun is bulk. I don't see me being in a situation where a either one is going to improve my shooting AND I don't care what Hackathorn carries on his gun. If he needs or wants one then more power to him. (I await the BLASPHEMY! post) :cool:
I am NOT condoning the 1911, I was only stating what works for ME. I am not going to something else because of peer pressure. Mine has never shot magical lightning bolts but it has healed leprosy. :D
I agree with the original poster in this thread. People base purchases and add all kinds of stuff to their guns and eqpt because of peer pressure or they saw it on the Internet, read it in a magazine, or someone told them that they didn't meet a spec. A gun, laser, light, or a bijillion round magazine doesn't make you a good shooter. Get a good gun, buy lots of ammo, get training, and practice often.
Pistol peer pressure. Good post and an interesting observation. Some cops are shooters. Some arent. I have several co workers that dont even own off duty guns. They are at one extreme. The guns of the month guys are at the other extreme.
I am issued a non railed P220. I have grown to like it. The thought of not carrying my Gunsite Govmnt .45 made me want to hyperventilate when I started as a cop. Given a choice, I would now stick with my P220, maybe my P228. I hate to admit it but I fall way closer to the gun of the month guy than the middle of the road average cop. I've been fascinated with them since I was a kid and the fascination has turned into an addiction.:D My MMPI test results did show an addictive personality so I guess guns beat crack.:D
That's what I was trying to say, but he did better.
And, thank God we live in the best country in the world, where we have such a selection of finest in personal protection sidearms that no one should be left wanting...if it weren't for restrictive department policies, but that's another thread.
One of my main reasons for not carrying a light or laser on my gun is bulk. I don't see me being in a situation where a either one is going to improve my shooting AND I don't care what Hackathorne carries on his gun. If he needs or wants one then more power to him. (I await the BLASPHEMY! post) :cool:
A few immediate thoughts come to mind upon reading this:
How much formal training do you have on operating a pistol-mounted light and pistol-mounted laser?
How much personal training time and experience do you have operating a pistol-mounted light and pistol-mounted laser?
Do you know why Ken Hackathorn (no "e" at the end) advocates what he does? Do you even know what Ken advocates?
Plenty of people have won gunfights without a light or laser. But an awful lot of guys who've won gunfights seem to like lights and lasers ... they just might have a reason for that.
Sometimes we take this all a little too seriously... There is no "one size fits all" when it comes to weapons for men.
If we really looked at the reality based on facts and probabilities, we would probably spend more time working on our retirement funds than training with guns, but I LIKE guns, and while ANY serviceable pistol will do in a gun fight, I LIKE my 1911s!
What messes with most people is that I own exactly the same number of 9mm Glocks as I own .45 1911s. There is no real world difference between me drawing from concealment and hitting a target from 2-25 yards with either a Glock 19 or a Colt 1911. I shoot both as badly as each other, but I just prefer my 1911s.
I am always fascinated by people that want to impose their preferences on others, this, "If I like a Glock with a light, then you can't like a 1911 without one" stuff is nonsense. I think it is because people become emotionally invested in their decisions and then need to justify and validate those decisions frequently to maintain their confidence in those decisions.
When I really thought about it, I suppose my 1911 is like my wife, while all women have vaginas, only my wife made it worth putting up with all the other bullshit that comes with it using it. For me the 1911 is the same, it might take a little extra attention but the aesthetics more than make up for the cost. :D
Does that make any sense?
MarshallDodge
02-17-09, 16:38
A few immediate thoughts come to mind upon reading this:
How much formal training do you have on operating a pistol-mounted light and pistol-mounted laser?
How much personal training time and experience do you have operating a pistol-mounted light and pistol-mounted laser?
Do you know why Ken Hackathorn (no "e" at the end) advocates what he does? Do you even know what Ken advocates?
Plenty of people have won gunfights without a light or laser. But an awful lot of guys who've won gunfights seem to like lights and lasers ... they just might have a reason for that.
Here comes the peer pressure!!! :D
I corrected Mr. Hackathorn's name. I do not know Mr. Hackathorn personally but I have watched his videos. He has very good points and I said nothing against using lights or lasers. Like I said, feel free to use them if you like.
That is all I will say in the context of this thread. :)
One of my main reasons for not carrying a light or laser on my gun is bulk. I don't see me being in a situation where a either one is going to improve my shooting....
How about being in a low-light situation where you need to identify a potential threat. The weapon mounted light will help improve almost every aspect of most any shooters ability in low-light situations.
Keeping a proper two handed grip on your pistol will surely help improve accuracy, as opposed to using a one handed grip to fire, and your support hand to activate a hand-held flashlight.
MarshallDodge
02-17-09, 16:48
How about being in a low-light situation where you need to identify a potential threat. The weapon mounted light will help improve almost every aspect of most any shooters ability in low-light situations.
Keeping a proper two handed grip on your pistol will surely help improve accuracy, as opposed to using a one handed grip to fire, and your support hand to activate a hand-held flashlight.
I am done arguing the point guys. This thread is about peer pressure, not lights, lasers, and Ken Hackathorn.
variablebinary
02-17-09, 19:17
I am done arguing the point guys. This thread is about peer pressure, not lights, lasers, and Ken Hackathorn.
You think you'd get the hint and start carrying a light and laser :p
You have to have your BS filter on, or you'll easily get sucked into wallet draining trendy products of the week with diminishing returns.
It happens all the time. People will dump a good gun, light, mount, rail or optic even though it is perfectly functional but it doesnt get as much press or gun forum love.
We've all done it some point. Some people grow out it. Others dont.
Better is better, regardless of the press involved. It can easily go the other way, like I said reverse elitism.
As far as the lights, don't confuse a discussion with peer pressure.
And, we need to keep the whole "it works for me" thing in context/perspective. To quote a Squad Leader I know, "I've got Privates that would love to take two gold plated Desert Eagles to combat".
Will the "it works for me" argument really work there? How about I shoot it best applied to a Ruger MKII?
Granted those are extremes, but they illustrate my point well. I see guys purchasing substandard gear all the time, I'm talking LE/Mil/ or just gards like me.
They justify it with the cost, and "its good enough for me".. which is just BS. When your crap gear shits the bed on ya, and your f'in with it instead of watching your lane, then what?
Bob
When your crap gear shits the bed on ya, and your f'in with it instead of watching your lane, then what?
You're on ARFCOM? :cool:
Random thoughts on the original subject of the thread...
If you're swayed easily by peer pressure you're never going to be happy. As soon as you ditch the light and laser, you'll find a group that thinks they're just peachy and will "pressure" you to put them back on (witness this thread). If you ditch your high-dollar 1911 for a plastic gun you'll soon find yourself in a crowd of 1911 shooters making fun of your tupperware.
This is something you either learn or you don't when you're a kid. You decide you want to fit in, buy the cool-kid clothes and try to fit in, only to have some redneck in cowboy boots or some punk-rock kid in Doc Martens kick your ass for being a "preppy". Either you learn to be yourself from this experience, and learn to stick up for being yourself, or you fold and become milquetoast (witness the suburbs).
Same thing happens here. Someone on M4C that's into higher-end gear and training wanders over to THR where they plink and collect (and collect dust) and all of a sudden they're "tacticool" and "militia-like".
There's no pleasing anyone but yourself.
The key, in my opinion, is knowing when to listen to the hive, or at least try their gear/way of doing things and not to get so caught up in being contrarian. A LOT of gun owners and shooters get caught up in being different, thinking they're not caving to peer pressure or whatever, and in truth they are being just as strongly influenced by it. We have several of these types at our matches, and they consistently under-perform simply because they insist on being "different".:rolleyes:
John_Wayne777
02-18-09, 10:13
Granted those are extremes, but they illustrate my point well. I see guys purchasing substandard gear all the time, I'm talking LE/Mil/ or just gards like me.
They justify it with the cost, and "its good enough for me".. which is just BS. When your crap gear shits the bed on ya, and your f'in with it instead of watching your lane, then what?
Indeed.
Some things are personal preference.
Some things are objective reality.
Knowing the difference is key.
A few immediate thoughts come to mind upon reading this:
How much formal training do you have on operating a pistol-mounted light and pistol-mounted laser?
How much personal training time and experience do you have operating a pistol-mounted light and pistol-mounted laser?
Do you know why Ken Hackathorn (no "e" at the end) advocates what he does? Do you even know what Ken advocates?
Plenty of people have won gunfights without a light or laser. But an awful lot of guys who've won gunfights seem to like lights and lasers ... they just might have a reason for that.
One could argue that all of those are reasons the quoted poster *shouldn't* use a light/laser. ;)
You're on ARFCOM? :cool:
Thats cold! Other then following links from this site, I havent been there since years and years ago, when there was a "what do you do for a living" thread, and the most prevelant answer was College student. These were usually the ones with the highest post count, and often posted things like "I'm hard on my gear":rolleyes:
But, my point was/is, I've seen alot of guys ditch some good issued gear, to replace it with cheap offshore knockoff stuff, just to be different, or get what they percieve as better. What happens when they spend all their time screwing with a sling that wont stay adjusted properly, mag pouches that flop around, or loose mags, and other problems. THats bad enough in training, but when they are supposed to be responding as your team mate, maybe personal preference isn't such a good thing. In fact its usually these types that ruin it for the rest of us, and we get stuck with org. issued stuff.
As far as keeping up with the Jones, that can go both ways also, how many have we seen struggle with lesser gear, just to be different, or "old school" etc.
For those that do well with simple gear, if the funds were available, do you not think they could do better with, better gear? Maybe maybe not.
But, agreed, trying to buy skill is not the answer.
Course we alwyas claim we are helping the economy, right?
Bob
ROCKET20_GINSU
02-18-09, 20:57
Kaltblitz,
I know where you are coming from buddy. If we were absolutely imune to the influences and effects of other human beings' opinions, many of us probably would not be on this board today...or on gun forums in general. I applaude you for your self reflection. I myself have been tempted and have had my resolve tested by the M&P and 1911 positive viewpoints on this forum...and I'm a Glock Fan big time. I've noticed that M4C members have very high regard from the M&P's, and on Glocktalk...yep you guessed it, those members have a very high opinion of glocks.
The M&P has alot going for it, which many M4C members have highlighted, and I've been tempted...but at the end of the day I've shot glocks now for quite a while and I am confident and comfortable with my G19, even though the M&P9's may be newer and better. In my opinion one of our most admirable qualities is the ability to adapt. Our Survival depends on it, be it in the interplay of social intercourse or in response to potentially catastrophic events. Point is...the mechanical reliability and caliber of cartridge, the things that I can't effectively adapt to or influence to a great degree, my glock 19 takes care of. It goes bang, and it launchs a bullet that when effectively applied does its job as well as can be expected IMO. The other quirks of the gun, maintenance requirements (or the lack there of ;)) trigger, recoil characteristics, grip angle, packability...I can adapt to, and I have.
I've seen some incredible shooters do amazing things with sexy 1911's, so much so that I've got one myself. And while I appreciate the historical significance and iconic status of this pistol, the real reason I own a 1911 is that I still wonder if there is any merit in the 1911 cool aid and own a 1911 to try it out myself from time to time. But for some crazy reason I still shoot my glocks better, probably because thats what I practice with the most. Doesn't keep me from tinkering with my SA 1911 or shooting it for pure fun on the range or carrying it on the rare occasion. But I am guilty of being bit by bugs just like very many other people here, but fortunately my experience and reason always push me back to true...and for me the balance point is Glock.
In closing, I think the initial point of the first post of this thread was well quantified. We should be reflective on ourselves and our equipment, cognitive dissonance is required in order to effectively assess and improve. IMO the army has not taken the mass jump to the HK 416 or SCAR or etc...because we are looking to make a big evolutionary generation jump in Small Arms, not just to invest and commit to a newer and "marginally" (I know they are better but not "that" much) better system. We should do the same and evaluate and assess how that applies to us. If that big evolutionary improvement in YOUR shooting was brought about by finding a new pistol and reaching harmony with its quirks and characteristics let no one dissuade you. Conversely, remember that we can adapt to just about anything and at the end of the day (until the mechanisms and controls of firearms change) most all shooting can be reduced to front sight and trigger control.
Do what works for YOU, pick a platform that goes bang and get as proficient as possible with it. When adversity stares you down, take solice in that YOU believe in YOUR choices and YOUR training, your time behind the trigger will determin the rest.
Stay Safe,
GU
FYI: I'm also a huge believer in Lasers/RDS and Weaponlights. In my field we have several catch phrases:
1) "if you aint cheating you aint trying"
2) "always cheat...and always win"
It may be cheating...and off the beaten path from traditional spartan shooting philosophies, but For ME, there is not faster, easier, reliable way to make accurate hits under stress in low light than thru the judicious application of crimson trace lasers and surefire pistol lights.
Ginsu,
You brought up some great points. I too am most comfortable with the Glock and find your analysis of the interplay between self perception and practicality to be surprisingly insightful. Great post!
~Yeti
I see this in the cop world all the time. Folks want to keep up with the Jones'
I recently heard about a department in NJ that transitioned to Glock .40s, the sole reason for doing so was the chief didn't want his department "to be the last department in NJ still carrying 9mms".
I used to catch enormous crap from other folks at firearms classes when they saw we were carrying S&W 9mms as duty guns on my job. It was fun to consistently outshoot said folks.
I get crap now for carrying a 9mm, although it's now a Glock. Somehow it's a girly caliber with no "stopping power", whatever that is?
I still take great pleasure in outshooting folks.
I recently heard about a department in NJ that transitioned to Glock .40s, the sole reason for doing so was the chief didn't want his department "to be the last department in NJ still carrying 9mms".
That's just sad. Common, but sad.
I still take great pleasure in outshooting folks.
I've actually run into a problem teaching LE classes, though. More than once I've had an officer-student say (often behind my back ... you'll never make Detective if you can't understand what electronic hearing protection is for): "Yeah, but he can only do that because he's got a nine millimeter." For a while I switched away from 9mm for that reason alone. Now I just do some of the drills with various students' guns.
That's just sad. Common, but sad.
I've actually run into a problem teaching LE classes, though. More than once I've had an officer-student say (often behind my back ... you'll never make Detective if you can't understand what electronic hearing protection is for): "Yeah, but he can only do that because he's got a nine millimeter." For a while I switched away from 9mm for that reason alone. Now I just do some of the drills with various students' guns.
If you've ever trained with Paul Howe, he usually shoots a compact Glock .45 One of his reasons, is to prove to students, that you don't need a, or his shooting abilities aren't related to, a custom built 1911. It may help, but you sure don't need it to shoot his standards.
Bob
Fidalgoman
03-30-09, 22:23
Peer pressure isn't a bad thing if it commits you to a higher standard. Pride in your equipment as well as your outfit can and does serve a purpose.
I've been to sporting clay shoots and seen over and under "field" guns ranging from $1.5 to $25K (some players own guns that go four times that, but not for competition). Was the high end unit worth it? The owner thought so. These guns are studies in absolute precision and will shoot the socks off any rack gun. If you haven't seen it you won't believe how accurate these shotguns are and how far they can reach out. These people are very competitive and demand the best of themselves and their equipment.
I think that can be said for carry guns as well. There are limits of course. I carry a G23 as my main gun. It serves it's purpose and works every time. I have no illusions it is as inherently accurate a precission tuned weapon. Neither am I for that matter
A $25,000 gun in the hands of a two-bit shooter is still a two-bit gun.
johnclark075
03-31-09, 08:05
Fidalgoman, I worked as a trapper at a sporting clays facility when I was in HS and college. It gave me the opportunity to see many shooters come in with outstanding overunder shotguns (more like works of art!). While many of these people did get what they paid for, I don't think I ever saw one of them outshoot their gun. Most could have used a simple entry overunder and not outshoot it. Most of these guys have to much money to spend, and instead of spending it on lessons and training, they would rather spend it on something quite visable (peer pressure!)
John_Wayne777
03-31-09, 08:37
Fidalgoman, I worked as a trapper at a sporting clays facility when I was in HS and college. It gave me the opportunity to see many shooters come in with outstanding overunder shotguns (more like works of art!). While many of these people did get what they paid for, I don't think I ever saw one of them outshoot their gun. Most could have used a simple entry overunder and not outshoot it. Most of these guys have to much money to spend, and instead of spending it on lessons and training, they would rather spend it on something quite visable (peer pressure!)
I don't know if it's as much peer pressure as it is mindset. A good example: A while back someone on TOS posted a thread in GD asking if they should take a training course with Magpul Dynamics or spend that money on a new Sig pistol.
"The training is only a couple of days, but the Sig is something I could have forever!"
That mindset is at least a contributing factor.
Fidalgoman, I worked as a trapper at a sporting clays facility when I was in HS and college. It gave me the opportunity to see many shooters come in with outstanding overunder shotguns (more like works of art!). While many of these people did get what they paid for, I don't think I ever saw one of them outshoot their gun. Most could have used a simple entry overunder and not outshoot it. Most of these guys have to much money to spend, and instead of spending it on lessons and training, they would rather spend it on something quite visable (peer pressure!)
So true, I attended a live pigeon shoot years ago and saw some of the nicest shotguns you will ever see along with the cars and stacks of cash at the poker tables. Really pissed the boys off when a friend of mine with a field grade Mdl. 12 outshot most of them. Talk about excuses.....
"The training is only a couple of days, but the Sig is something I could have forever!"
That mindset is at least a contributing factor.
That's not a mindset. It's a mental disease.
A recent tally showed that I bought/sold/traded 54 handguns over a period of 22 years. Many of these were 1911's, but plenty of others too. And yes, they got more high-tech over the years.
Finally I got fed up, and decided that -- at least for me in an everyday real-life personal-defense mode -- the G19 remains unbeaten. After all the predecessors, it has been carried everyday for the past 2&1/2 years. I did just recently upgrade it with Warren 2-dot night-sights (that helps a lot in low light).
Dare I say, it's a true keeper? The peers can keep whatever works best for them. :rolleyes:
Fidalgoman
03-31-09, 13:31
First off you will never see me post a "mine's bigger than yours is" comment. My only point is that you usually have to pay for quality. How much you're willing to pay is each individuals discretion. What you get for your money depends on whom you give it to. It's kind of like cars. You can spend up to a million bucks for an uber rocket. That doesn't mean you can drive it to it's potential or it's money well spent. In the hands of somebody like a top F1 driver that potential can be recognized. As far as the shoot I attended (a national points event) many of the shooters were top notch, came from all over the world, and were very serious about winning. That's all.
Using cars again as an example. A lot of people are willing to drive rock stock hondas, some rusted out beaters, and others demand something better. How many PU trucks do you see with megga bucks in tires, wheels, suspension kits and blaster stereos? How many high end luxury or sports cars? Some people buy clothes off the rack others insist on tailor fit. Same as in houses, boats, fill in the blank. Some will say it's a waste of money. Others will see it money well spent. If you noticed I have a G23 as my daily carry. I can appreciate fine art and craftsmanship in firearms. Some things just feel better to have and hold. My Glock suits me just fine. I'm not afraid to scratch it. It's just that I can appreciate other brands and craftsmanship. Flame me if you wish. :cool:
G34Shooter
03-31-09, 14:16
I've been all over the map when it comes to various handguns and calibers, now I'm sticking to 9mm Glocks and I may test out a M&P 9mm with thumb safety when they are released to the public (Todd has some influence in this)
The Dumb Gun Collector
03-31-09, 15:31
My experience has sort of been the opposite. For years and years I would only shoot the latest and greatest. It was a sound plan. If a reputable company like H&K or SIG or Glock put it out, it was probably what I needed. I could easily confirm my choice by looking and seeing what various spec-ops groups were carrying, and basically be satisfied. And although this method is mocked by many, it really didn't steer me wrong. The guns I selected were all excellent.
As I have gotten older, and become less enamored of what "the big dogs" thought, and I have started drifting towards the 1911. What I like about the 1911 is how thoroughly developed it is. If you buy an H&K45 or an M&P a Glock 21, you are basically going to have to conform yourself to the gun. Sure you can have somebody stipple the grip, or tinker with your trigger, but your options are pretty limited. If I was about to be dropped into a zombie/road warrior movie would I choose the HK45 over the 1911? absolutely! But I am a regular civilian shooter who carries his firearms for personal defense and hobby shooting. If the zombies attack, I have my HK45. But the 1911, for me at least, is easier for me to shoot well than any other combat handgun (or as Bob says, shoot less bad).
And you know what? I don't think of my guns like I think of my lawnmower (to cannibalize one of Ken Hackathorn's gems). I enjoy customizing and making a gun "mine." Does that make me less high-speed low drag? I am sure it does, but I was already pretty slow and draggy to begin with. I like being able to tune the trigger. I like being able to select the grip width, texture, composition, etc. I like having literally 10s of thousands of choices. I like having the wealth of knowledge that comes from using a gun that has 100 years of development.
And I have noticed something else. I have become much less absolute in my gun choices over the years. 10 years ago, I detested the 1911 because of its limited capacity and its reliability issues. Why someone would carry a heavy low cap gun that may or may not run out of the box befuddled me. But as I have gotten older, I have become more of a fan of firearms in general. You really won't hear me say much bad about a gun unless someone goes out of their way to proclaim its greatness over another gun. I love guns.
Who cares what anyone else thinks if you have made a sound choice for yourself?
All of the common service pistol calibers work well when fed quality ammunition, be it 9mm, 357 Sig, .40 S&W, or .45 ACP
If you are issued your equipment and have no choice in the selection, learn to use it well and train hard.
If you get to choose your personal gear, then pick what works best for you and then train hard.
For a variety of reasons, I prefer 9 mm Glocks, M&P's, and 1911's. YMMV...
We pretty much decided that in the last few years we've been force fed by the gun companies, the magazines and by our buddies...
...we often let others...be they co-workers, instructors or guys in a gun magazine...dictate our firearms choice and what we choose to carry.
Gun magazines!? Go outside and kick your own ass. Right now.
I had a twenty some year love affair with the 1911 and enjoyed every minute of it, well mostly. In the last several years however I have gravitated to polymer pistols; glock and M&P. Lighter, more capacity and easier to replace in the event you actually have to use it. I have come to the conclusion that for me, the 9mm works as well as a .45.
Well, I did get an M&P due to this forum. Did I succumb?
ffhounddog
04-01-09, 07:30
Only thing I know is my SW5903TSW gets odd looks at the LEO compitions I have been to this year and yes it is in stainless. It is a blast from the past but for some odd reason I like it better than my Glock 19 that I carry on a daily basis because my wife also carries a Glock 19. When I am around the house my belt holster is for my 5903 and I wish they made more of these.
Now if I could just do better in those shotgun courses I would do alot better than I do now and maybe win some better prizes. I hate shotguns but that is because I use a pump and will not buy something just for a compition. My Agency uses that dang sigma and when we get new stuff it will be a M&P in 40 so I will probally buy one.
Only thing I know is my SW5903TSW gets odd looks at the LEO compitions I have been to this year and yes it is in stainless. It is a blast from the past but for some odd reason I like it better than my Glock 19 that I carry on a daily basis.......
I had a couple of 5904's and 5906's back during the 80's-90's. I was never into the "Don Johnson look", but I did like the look and feel of these guns. Mine were after the square trigger guard was replaced with the rounded, and had the level dust shroud. With the stock Novak sights, the guns had a certain robust look to them. I liked their appearance a lot better then some of the other Smith autos, such as some of the compact models having ramped dust shrouds.
Many of the early Smith autos were complained of being too blocky, and although mine did protrude from the hip quite a bit, they actually fit my hand very well. At the time I had no complaints with the DA/SA action, slide-mounted safety, and mag-drop safety, but I wouldn't like those features today.
The all-stainless 5906's were as heavy to carry as any 1911, but the alloy 5904's weren't any worse than a Sig. Like most DA/SA guns though, they were internally complicated with lots of little pins and springs to wear out and break (although I never had any problem with any of mine). I've since become a lot more used to 1911's and Glocks for simplicity of both design and function.
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