View Full Version : Chest Rig Setup - Critiques
Gutshot John
02-16-09, 10:41
I was looking for a simplified chest-rig setup for training/quick use.
It's an Eagle SKD Molle Panel with TT mag shingles. sjauch did the straps.
The pouches from the left are: knife, a possibles (lube, loaders, sunscreen etc.) pouch, medic pouch and pistol mag pouches.
I was thinking of putting a pistol holster on the far right either arranged vertically or I do have a horizontal panel, but I'm not sure if that's too much and I should just stick to a belt holster.
I'd be wearing this with some sort of camelbak for balance, but since it's a new rig I'm not entirely sure of its functionality in class. It doesn't feel as secure as a MAV when going to prone, but that may be a function of design.
Any critiques? suggestions? Glaring defects? Too ...? The PMAGs are all oriented in that direction to make them fit more securely as the space between the two shingles don't allow opposing directions.
http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll99/GutshotJohn/CIMG0137.jpg
http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll99/GutshotJohn/CIMG0139.jpg
That goes well past what I could consider "simplified". but then, I have found myself stripping away layers of crap from my load carriage, guns, range bags, and life in general, so we may be headed down divergent paths.
Are you a right-handed shooter or left-handed?
As a right-hander, I've found that having pouches of any significant size on that side interfered with drawing my pistol. I'm short-waisted, so that may be a determining factor, but it's an issue for me. YMMV.
Only by using the rig in a rigourous training environment that simulates what we might encounter will issues become apparent.
Gutshot John
02-16-09, 12:25
Left handed, which is why everything is shifted towards the right-hand side.
Simplified was only meant as a comparison as to what had come earlier. Too many mags Rob? or is it that you don't like stacking things in front of the shingle? Put pistol/mag pouches on waist belt?
To many mags for me/my uses.
As I said, I've gotten to where I'm keeping everything streamlined as much as possible, and I don't find myself saying "damn, I wish I had XYZ" very often. The one thing I'm working on adding to my current chest rig setup is a trauma kit, and even that will be streamlined and geared towards my non-LE civy needs.
Iraq Ninja
02-16-09, 13:29
I agree, too much for a chest rig, but that is me. Looks like you are getting ready to storm Fallujah. :D
Quick use often turns into long wear. Try living in this rig for a day. That includes driving with it, go hiking, etc. Well, maybe on a weekend so your boss doesn't give you a strange look...
A pistol on your belt is a good idea, so that when you are tired of carrying all that stuff and take the vest off, you still have a weapon.
If you have to counter balance any chest rig with a camelbak, then you may have too much stuff.
In the end, you have to think about what you want to do with it. That is the hard part.
Ditch the pistol mag pouch, go with a double open top- like Eagle FB...is the heat!
That type of retention is not needed unless you are jumping and diving.
In the end, you have to think about what you want to do with it.
I would say "in the beginning.
I like the simple set up. How does it feel when you are in the prone? Also, since you are a left handed shooter you might want to try to set the magazines facing the other way. It might be a little faster. Just my two cents!
Iraq Ninja
02-16-09, 13:59
Ditch the pistol mag pouch, go with a double open top- like Eagle FB...is the heat!
That type of retention is not needed unless you are jumping and diving.
Dave, things must be easy in the North! Every time I got shot at, I ended up running, jumping, and diving. Mostly running ... ;)
Stay safe up there...
Gutshot John
02-16-09, 14:01
The balance issue is one I have with all chest rigs and why I originally went to the MAV. I don't know if I "need" it on this one since that "need" was determined when I used to run a standard SKD rig which wasn't very comfortable for me wearing for a long time.
I've not tried the above rig in class or on the range. I'd probably wear the camelbak in class even if I didn't need it for balance.
The MAV feels more secure, but in balancing the load it is too much rig to grab and go. I thought the SKD panel/shingles combo might bring some of that weight back in closer to the body and make a good compromise.
The pistol mags prevent going prone rapidly, but the possibles/trauma pouch don't at all. I took off the pistol pouches and I'm just going to keep them on a pistol belt.
About the only things I can remove is a either mag shingle, the trauma pouch or the possibles kit.
RogerinTPA
02-16-09, 15:01
I agree with cutting that back quite a bit. There's an old saying: Ounces = Pounds, Pounds = Pain. Depending on what your use is for, 4 or 5 mags are more than enough for any class. I'm right handed so my trauma kit is on my right rear hip, behind the holster, and mags are on the forward left hip.
Gutshot John
02-16-09, 15:21
I agree with cutting that back quite a bit. There's an old saying: Ounces = Pounds, Pounds = Pain.
I've heard of such a thing. :p
About the only thing that "weighs" are the magazine. Everything else looks heavy but it's just bulk. The full "possibles" bag is MAYBE a pound, the trauma kit maybe a 1/4 lb.
Depending on what your use is for, 4 or 5 mags are more than enough for any class. I'm right handed so my trauma kit is on my right rear hip, behind the holster, and mags are on the forward left hip.
I run 7 mags (1 in the gun, 6 spares) since I hate reloading. I could take a way one shingle leaving 4 mags. Honestly if I ever feel like I have to grab an AR and this rig for real, I'd feel more secure with 7 than with 4. I train with 7 since that is what I presume I'd fight with. The pistol mags can stay on the belt.
My thought on the trauma kit was to have it easily accessible by either hand in case one appendage is injured, but that concern may be overstated.
Are you running a MOLLE belt? or just a gun/riggers belt?
I appreciate everyone's input, I'm getting this set up to run in the VTAC class coming up and even though I know I'll have to modify, I'd like to get it close before hand.
Dave, things must be easy in the North! Every time I got shot at, I ended up running, jumping, and diving. Mostly running ... ;)
Stay safe up there...
Yup, I get mean looks all the time. However, I had to turn my frags in the other day...not to happy about that. (but) Now I have more room for quadruple retention pistol mag pouches!
Heavy Metal
02-16-09, 15:29
I have developed a three layer philosophy.
Layer 1 Belt: pistol, extra pistol ammo, redi mag for rifle and pistol. Also a canteen if you will be away from water.
Layer 2 Chest Rig: 5 or 6 rifle mags and a small 1st aid kit. Mabe a pouch for a small GPS or compass. Something you frequently access.
Layer 3: Small Daypack: Extra ammo, water and 1st aid supplies and whatever else the mission dictates.
Add or remove layers as the situation dictates.
RogerinTPA
02-16-09, 15:52
My thought on the trauma kit was to have it easily accessible by either hand in case one appendage is injured, but that concern may be overstated.
A very valid point. During a class, I'm counting on the folks around me to render assistance, although that maybe a bit optimistic!:p
Are you running a MOLLE belt? or just a gun/riggers belt?
A riggers belt, since I like to practice drawing from something similar to what I actually carry on a daily basis. I am considering going with a MOLLE for class purposes, but that would require a subrig holster and building different muscle memory.
Failure2Stop
02-16-09, 16:06
Here's my opinion-
Too big for what I would use for the same tasks.
Magazines- I would cut down to 3 mag pouches- carrying between 3 to 5 magazines. Going down to 3 mags will be a lot lighter, and going to just 3 pouches will open space up on your rig if you decide to keep some other things that I advise on dropping ;). A redi-mod on the gun is a really simple way to carry an instantly accessible magazine, if not a little pricey.
Lose the knife. It seems really cool and useful, but it really isn't. A quality multi-tool will be a lot more useful for pretty much everything except for making Miamoto Musashi giggle at you. It will also weigh less and have a smaller footprint.
Go with a normal belt-holster. Stick a couple extra mags on the belt. If you want to run some extra pistol mags on the chest rig- go ahead, but 1 or 2 will most likely be the most you will realistically need. Go with something like the Eagle FB for the pistol pouches- you can run one open and one retained.
Ditch the possibles pouch. You won't need it during any string of fire during a training course, and if you are using it to wander the woods you should probably have at least a small pack with water, food, extra clothing, survival kit, hatchet, etc. There really isn't any big need for it on the vest.
Ditch the big med pouch for a small detachable one, filled only with critical life-saving stuff you can use on yourself in case you become seriously injured. I like a tourniquet located in a place I can get to with either hand separate from the bleeder pouch. Put all the other first-aid and fancy stuff for the treatment of others in the third line.
If you are back-woodsing it you might want a nice little pouch for the GPS/cell. I also recommend a pouch for a backup light unless you are going to wear it on the first line. A dump pouch is really nice, not just for empty mags, but also for carrying extra mags to the line in case you drop to 3 mags and whatever course you are on requires more mags for a string of fire.
I have to carry soft armor (usually), hard plates (always), frags, smoke, bangs, minimum of 6 mags on my body (usually), a PRC-148, a first aid kit, a pistol and relevant mags (sometimes), pop-ups, water, extra mission specific gear (anything from breaching charges to MG ammo), a helmet, night vision, and other assorted silliness- so I train with all that crap on. I would love to be able to strip it all down to the bare essentials as I have laid them out.
Like I said, just what I would do.
Gutshot John
02-16-09, 16:10
A very valid point. During a class, I'm counting on the folks around me to render assistance, although that maybe a bit optimistic!:p
So long as it's not the motherf*(&er that shot you in the first place. :p
I like the three layer idea. That was kind of the philosophy I had with my MAV, but then I ended up incorporating the belt and the vest into one unit...maybe that's where I went wrong.
The ATS suspenders I used with my Molle belt weren't very comfortable and there were straps everywhere...but maybe I need to reassess that setup.
Gutshot John
02-16-09, 16:33
Here's my opinion-
Too big for what I would use for the same tasks.
Magazines- I would cut down to 3 mag pouches- carrying between 3 to 5 magazines. Going down to 3 mags will be a lot lighter, and going to just 3 pouches will open space up on your rig if you decide to keep some other things that I advise on dropping ;). A redi-mod on the gun is a really simple way to carry an instantly accessible magazine, if not a little pricey.
Unfortunately I'm a lefty so a redi-mod isn't really functional for me...though I wish it were.
Lose the knife. It seems really cool and useful, but it really isn't. A quality multi-tool will be a lot more useful for pretty much everything except for making Miamoto Musashi giggle at you. It will also weigh less and have a smaller footprint.
Check...knife is gone.
Go with a normal belt-holster. Stick a couple extra mags on the belt. If you want to run some extra pistol mags on the chest rig- go ahead, but 1 or 2 will most likely be the most you will realistically need. Go with something like the Eagle FB for the pistol pouches- you can run one open and one retained.
What do you think of a dedicated pistol belt, with the chest rig dedicated to the long gun?
I have one of these...it's not the FB, but close enough?
http://www.tacticaltailor.com/triplepistolmagpouch.aspx
Ditch the possibles pouch. You won't need it during any string of fire during a training course, and if you are using it to wander the woods you should probably have at least a small pack with water, food, extra clothing, survival kit, hatchet, etc. There really isn't any big need for it on the vest.
Actually it's more about weapons maintenance with a few extraneous doo-dahs thrown in. Small cleaning kit, lube, LULA, maybe sunscreen/repellant. That said, should I ditch it anyways?
Ditch the big med pouch for a small detachable one, filled only with critical life-saving stuff you can use on yourself in case you become seriously injured. I like a tourniquet located in a place I can get to with either hand separate from the bleeder pouch. Put all the other first-aid and fancy stuff for the treatment of others in the third line.
Why separate from a bleeder pouch?
What's in there now is a tourniquet, a battle dressing and a two-pack of Celox applicators.
It looks big but there really isn't that much in it.
If you are back-woodsing it you might want a nice little pouch for the GPS/cell. I also recommend a pouch for a backup light unless you are going to wear it on the first line. A dump pouch is really nice, not just for empty mags, but also for carrying extra mags to the line in case you drop to 3 mags and whatever course you are on requires more mags for a string of fire.
I was going to put the dump pouch on the pistol belt.
I have to carry soft armor (usually), hard plates (always), frags, smoke, bangs, minimum of 6 mags on my body (usually), a PRC-148, a first aid kit, a pistol and relevant mags (sometimes), pop-ups, water, extra mission specific gear (anything from breaching charges to MG ammo), a helmet, night vision, and other assorted silliness- so I train with all that crap on. I would love to be able to strip it all down to the bare essentials as I have laid them out.
Better you than me. :cool:
Like I said, just what I would do.
That's exactly what I wanted to hear.
Heavy Metal
02-16-09, 16:52
Here's my opinion-
Too big for what I would use for the same tasks.
Magazines- I would cut down to 3 mag pouches- carrying between 3 to 5 magazines. Going down to 3 mags will be a lot lighter, and going to just 3 pouches will open space up on your rig if you decide to keep some other things that I advise on dropping ;). A redi-mod on the gun is a really simple way to carry an instantly accessible magazine, if not a little pricey.
Lose the knife. It seems really cool and useful, but it really isn't. A quality multi-tool will be a lot more useful for pretty much everything except for making Miamoto Musashi giggle at you. It will also weigh less and have a smaller footprint.
Go with a normal belt-holster. Stick a couple extra mags on the belt. If you want to run some extra pistol mags on the chest rig- go ahead, but 1 or 2 will most likely be the most you will realistically need. Go with something like the Eagle FB for the pistol pouches- you can run one open and one retained.
Ditch the possibles pouch. You won't need it during any string of fire during a training course, and if you are using it to wander the woods you should probably have at least a small pack with water, food, extra clothing, survival kit, hatchet, etc. There really isn't any big need for it on the vest.
Ditch the big med pouch for a small detachable one, filled only with critical life-saving stuff you can use on yourself in case you become seriously injured. I like a tourniquet located in a place I can get to with either hand separate from the bleeder pouch. Put all the other first-aid and fancy stuff for the treatment of others in the third line.
If you are back-woodsing it you might want a nice little pouch for the GPS/cell. I also recommend a pouch for a backup light unless you are going to wear it on the first line. A dump pouch is really nice, not just for empty mags, but also for carrying extra mags to the line in case you drop to 3 mags and whatever course you are on requires more mags for a string of fire.
I have to carry soft armor (usually), hard plates (always), frags, smoke, bangs, minimum of 6 mags on my body (usually), a PRC-148, a first aid kit, a pistol and relevant mags (sometimes), pop-ups, water, extra mission specific gear (anything from breaching charges to MG ammo), a helmet, night vision, and other assorted silliness- so I train with all that crap on. I would love to be able to strip it all down to the bare essentials as I have laid them out.
Like I said, just what I would do.
Sound like we are both on the same sheet of music(except I don't use IBA, Nods, pyro or K-Pots). Makes me feel better about my choices.
I was going to put the dump pouch on the pistol belt.
I do have a dump pouch and lets add a small light like a G2 to Mr. Belt.
Basically, my thinking is with layer one I get a sidearm with three spare mags and one spare AR mag. This gives me a 'grab and go' set-up for a bump in the night situation.
Layer two gives me more rifle ammo, adds basic 1st aid and basic land nav capability. I like to avoid adding stuff to the outside of the mag pouches as this makes it easier to assume a tolerable prone position. Layer 1+2 will give you 7 AR mags including the one in the redi-mag on the belt and the one in the rifle. It gives you 4 pistol mags too.
Layer three gives you anything else you might need at that time. If you are at layer three, Send Lawyers, Guns and Money cuz TS has HTF for sure.
My goal it to respect functionality and have my gear logically divisible. Call it Defcon one, two and three.
Here's my opinion-
Too big for what I would use for the same tasks.
Magazines- I would cut down to 3 mag pouches- carrying between 3 to 5 magazines. Going down to 3 mags will be a lot lighter, and going to just 3 pouches will open space up on your rig if you decide to keep some other things that I advise on dropping ;). A redi-mod on the gun is a really simple way to carry an instantly accessible magazine, if not a little pricey.
Lose the knife. It seems really cool and useful, but it really isn't. A quality multi-tool will be a lot more useful for pretty much everything except for making Miamoto Musashi giggle at you. It will also weigh less and have a smaller footprint.
Go with a normal belt-holster. Stick a couple extra mags on the belt. If you want to run some extra pistol mags on the chest rig- go ahead, but 1 or 2 will most likely be the most you will realistically need. Go with something like the Eagle FB for the pistol pouches- you can run one open and one retained.
Ditch the possibles pouch. You won't need it during any string of fire during a training course, and if you are using it to wander the woods you should probably have at least a small pack with water, food, extra clothing, survival kit, hatchet, etc. There really isn't any big need for it on the vest.
Ditch the big med pouch for a small detachable one, filled only with critical life-saving stuff you can use on yourself in case you become seriously injured. I like a tourniquet located in a place I can get to with either hand separate from the bleeder pouch. Put all the other first-aid and fancy stuff for the treatment of others in the third line.
If you are back-woodsing it you might want a nice little pouch for the GPS/cell. I also recommend a pouch for a backup light unless you are going to wear it on the first line. A dump pouch is really nice, not just for empty mags, but also for carrying extra mags to the line in case you drop to 3 mags and whatever course you are on requires more mags for a string of fire.
I have to carry soft armor (usually), hard plates (always), frags, smoke, bangs, minimum of 6 mags on my body (usually), a PRC-148, a first aid kit, a pistol and relevant mags (sometimes), pop-ups, water, extra mission specific gear (anything from breaching charges to MG ammo), a helmet, night vision, and other assorted silliness- so I train with all that crap on. I would love to be able to strip it all down to the bare essentials as I have laid them out.
Like I said, just what I would do.
I agree with F2S.
I went down to three AR mag pouches (they can each carry two but I usually only run one) and a double pistol mag pouch and that's it. I run a belt holster or a molle belt with holster and pistol mag pouches and I'm much happier.
I remember being in one class and looking down at 75lbs of mags, ammo and other assorted shit hanging off me and thinking, why? Not only did I not use 80% of that stuff but it was also wearing me out by the end of the day.
Gutshot John
02-16-09, 17:17
I see recurring posts from a variety of people that say "that's way more than you need for training."
While I don't dispute the truth of the statements, I am curious as to where people draw the line between "more than you need" and "training like you fight".I'm not trying to be a smartass, I'm just curious as to where people draw that line.
I will say that I've worn much more gear during recent training with no ill effect. All told including rifle, pistol and rig, I don't think there's much more than 25 lbs of gear/ammo.
If I'm wrong in my analysis please don't hesitate to point it out. Once again I'm grateful for all the input.
Failure2Stop
02-16-09, 18:09
Unfortunately I'm a lefty so a redi-mod isn't really functional for me...though I wish it were.
Then the immediate action is to become right-handed :p.
Roger- forget you were a lefty even though I read it several times and cross checked pouch placement. Sometimes I disappoint me.
To be frank, reduction of mags is going to be your primary weight reduction measure. I would have an FB at about 1 oclock (if I was a lefty), with two doubles side by side sequentially to the right side of the FB. There is no rule against only stuffing 1 mag in each pouch, and if you need to increase your loadout you can instantly jump up to 5 mags simply by sticking 1 more mag in each pouch. I really like Paraclete pouches, but I want to try out the ATS offering due to the variety of retention options that can be swapped in and out depending on preference/application. I do not like having more than 1/3 of my mags without retention.
What do you think of a dedicated pistol belt, with the chest rig dedicated to the long gun?
I agree- but with a caveat. I like to have at least one rifle mag with the first line (in case you happen to be away from the second-line when the poop goes rotary or in case something is blocking access for some reason) and at least one pistol mag on the second line (frequently during a transition the primary will block chest-mounted pistol mags or side-mounted pistol mags depending on circumstance, technique, and situation).
I have one of these...it's not the FB, but close enough?
http://www.tacticaltailor.com/triplepistolmagpouch.aspx
I have never personally used them, and I have a few rules about what I recommend- one of which is personal experience with the item in question :p. I prefer the FB over every nylon pouch I have ever used- and I have used quite a few.
That being said, I am looking forward to hear how yours works for you. It might be just fine. Let us know.
Actually it's more about weapons maintenance with a few extraneous doo-dahs thrown in. Small cleaning kit, lube, LULA, maybe sunscreen/repellant. That said, should I ditch it anyways?
I keep a little bottle of the lube of the day on me, but usually in my cleaning kit which sits with other rarely used items away from the stuff I need to use to shoot. In my experience I can tell about 90 rounds before I really need to wet the gun, and that is usually about 2 or 3 hundred rounds into the shooting- something like 7 to 10 mags. So I don't feel the necessity to keep lube in immediate access at the cost of freedom of movement or bulk. But if you really want to keep some lube close at hand you can get a tiny bottle into most stocks, grips, or VFGs. My personal advice is to leave the rest of the stuff with your range gear (if during a class) or in your third-line if out and about.
It's not really so much a weight issue as it is a bulk issue. Pretty much anything thicker than a double rifle mag pouch is too thick if it is anywhere near the swing of your arms- it will irritate the living crap out of you really soon. If you can't run a mile with the gear fully loaded up without wanting to toss it into a wood-chipper it will cause issue at some point.
Why separate from a bleeder pouch?
Because the Tourniquet NOW (http://www.blueforcegear.com/product.cfm?type=cat&cat_id=6&prod_id=113) rocks. For years guys have been rubber-banding tourniquets to their gear, but this works great and keeps it readily accessible for one-handed use under duress in case there isn't anyone else around to help you control bad extremity bleeding. It also only occupies one column of PALS (depending on clamp), and is probably the cheapest relevant thing you can stick on your gear.
What's in there now is a tourniquet, a battle dressing and a two-pack of Celox applicators.
It looks big but there really isn't that much in it.
Once again, it isn't so much about weight or volume as it is about bulk and girth. The thinner you can keep the gear the happier you will be when wearing it for more than 30 seconds at a time (about the time allotted before your significant other will start to audibly worry about your attire).
I still prefer to cut down the size of the bleeder pouch. I just have a QC (I think) sponge/dressing thing for direct pressure, some med-tape, a pair of shears, and something else that is escaping my memory (sorry, my gear is out of immediate access and I am lazy. . . maybe some gauze. . . or a pack of Mentos. . .). Basically stuff that I can work one-handed on myself for highly time sensitive stuff.
IIRC- you have some degree of knowledge in this area. I recall a thread a while ago, but I could be way off. Anyway- sometimes those skills can lead people to try to carry too much crap- just like gun guys tend to want to carry too much ammo and spare parts/cleaning stuff, comms guys have field-expedient antennas woven into their superman underroos and batteries falling out of their pockets, and lumen worshippers have two lights mounted on everything and even more batteries falling out of their packs. One of the hallmarks of an invaluable anyone is the knowledge of what to have and in what quantity without over-encumbering themselves, with just enough for "just in case", and know where to keep it.
I was going to put the dump pouch on the pistol belt.
That is how I prefer mine as it keeps it low enough to permit rapid access.
Rob S has a good article over on his site about his development of his gear. I think that it is a very logical approach. Of course you might not follow the exact path that he chose to, but it is conceptually sound.
Sorry for the long post but I am now seriously considering setting up a stripped-down PC for GP/comp use and I am getting a little over enthusiastic about it.
Here's my opinion-
Too big for what I would use for the same tasks.
Magazines- I would cut down to 3 mag pouches- carrying between 3 to 5 magazines. Going down to 3 mags will be a lot lighter, and going to just 3 pouches will open space up on your rig if you decide to keep some other things that I advise on dropping ;). A redi-mod on the gun is a really simple way to carry an instantly accessible magazine, if not a little pricey.
Lose the knife. It seems really cool and useful, but it really isn't. A quality multi-tool will be a lot more useful for pretty much everything except for making Miamoto Musashi giggle at you. It will also weigh less and have a smaller footprint.
Go with a normal belt-holster. Stick a couple extra mags on the belt. If you want to run some extra pistol mags on the chest rig- go ahead, but 1 or 2 will most likely be the most you will realistically need. Go with something like the Eagle FB for the pistol pouches- you can run one open and one retained.
Ditch the possibles pouch. You won't need it during any string of fire during a training course, and if you are using it to wander the woods you should probably have at least a small pack with water, food, extra clothing, survival kit, hatchet, etc. There really isn't any big need for it on the vest.
Ditch the big med pouch for a small detachable one, filled only with critical life-saving stuff you can use on yourself in case you become seriously injured. I like a tourniquet located in a place I can get to with either hand separate from the bleeder pouch. Put all the other first-aid and fancy stuff for the treatment of others in the third line.
If you are back-woodsing it you might want a nice little pouch for the GPS/cell. I also recommend a pouch for a backup light unless you are going to wear it on the first line. A dump pouch is really nice, not just for empty mags, but also for carrying extra mags to the line in case you drop to 3 mags and whatever course you are on requires more mags for a string of fire.
I have to carry soft armor (usually), hard plates (always), frags, smoke, bangs, minimum of 6 mags on my body (usually), a PRC-148, a first aid kit, a pistol and relevant mags (sometimes), pop-ups, water, extra mission specific gear (anything from breaching charges to MG ammo), a helmet, night vision, and other assorted silliness- so I train with all that crap on. I would love to be able to strip it all down to the bare essentials as I have laid them out.
Like I said, just what I would do.
Don't forget about the extra batteries for the PRC 148;)
I have to carry soft armor (usually), hard plates (always), frags, smoke, bangs, minimum of 6 mags on my body (usually), a PRC-148, a first aid kit, a pistol and relevant mags (sometimes), pop-ups, water, extra mission specific gear (anything from breaching charges to MG ammo), a helmet, night vision, and other assorted silliness- so I train with all that crap on. I would love to be able to strip it all down to the bare essentials as I have laid them out.
Jesus, I'm glad to know that somebody besides me trains with a no-shit assault load!
It gets a bit galling to have a class look at me like I have a dick growing out of the middle of my forehead when I walk up in a fully-plated and -loaded Spartan II, with a MICH on my grape and 8+1 rifle/4+1 pistol mags. Particularly since I'm most often the only one.
While I don't dispute the truth of the statements, I am curious as to where people draw the line between "more than you need" and "training like you fight".
What is your "fight"? What is it you're training for? Is there some environment where you envision donning thing, or your MAV, for battle?
Gutshot John
02-17-09, 07:49
What is your "fight"? What is it you're training for? Is there some environment where you envision donning thing, or your MAV, for battle?
Well I'm not going to storm Fallujah...
Don't know what the fight will be though I concede it would be a lot easier if I did. Could be Katrina, could be the wannabe gangstas down the street. Though if it's bad enough that I need to grab my carbine instead of my CCW, I want more ammo than I think I'm going to need.
The MAV, though very comfortable, is dedicated to a .308 platform and is way too much to "grab and go" and is probably best suited to the Pocaclypse (though I use it for hunting quite a bit). The chest rig was meant to fill that niche between CCW and the MAV.
In re-reading the original post I regret that I overemphasized a "training" rig. That's where it will probably see the most use, but it's purpose goes beyond that.
I was looking for a simplified chest-rig setup for training/quick use.
It's an Eagle SKD Molle Panel with TT mag shingles. sjauch did the straps.
The pouches from the left are: knife, a possibles (lube, loaders, sunscreen etc.) pouch, medic pouch and pistol mag pouches.
I was thinking of putting a pistol holster on the far right either arranged vertically or I do have a horizontal panel, but I'm not sure if that's too much and I should just stick to a belt holster.
I'd be wearing this with some sort of camelbak for balance, but since it's a new rig I'm not entirely sure of its functionality in class. It doesn't feel as secure as a MAV when going to prone, but that may be a function of design.
Any critiques? suggestions? Glaring defects? Too ...? The PMAGs are all oriented in that direction to make them fit more securely as the space between the two shingles don't allow opposing directions.
Don't let the "extreme minimalists" get you down! To me, that rig you have is a minimal setup. I consider six rifle magazines a minimum to have on my body - I don't have the luxury of a squad/platoon or a hummer loaded down with additional magazines. Same goes for medical supplies - I don't have a corpsman or several other people to spread-load medical supplies across.
I used to use a similar rig to yours. I made a few changes over time: I use three closed-top, double-mag pouches centered on the panel instead of six singles across the whole panel. My medical kit and GP pouch go on either side of the mag pouches. I have no pistol-related gear on the chest (see below). When I used the six single pouches like you've shown, I had the four magazines nearest my reloading side oriented with the bullets facing left (like you, I'm a lefty). The two magazines farthest to the left were oriented with the bullets facing right to facilitate easier reach. If you haven't tried it, when you wear the rig, the spaces between the mags opens up a bit and the two opposite and opposing mags should fit fine beside each other. I also wear a dump pouch on the belt strap to my right side.
I agree, too much for a chest rig, but that is me. Looks like you are getting ready to storm Fallujah. :D
Six rifle mags would be enough with which to storm Fallujah...?
What do you think of a dedicated pistol belt, with the chest rig dedicated to the long gun?
This is what I do. My chest rig is a "rifleman's rig". Any and all sidearm stuff goes on a belt.
I see recurring posts from a variety of people that say "that's way more than you need for training."
While I don't dispute the truth of the statements, I am curious as to where people draw the line between "more than you need" and "training like you fight".I'm not trying to be a smartass, I'm just curious as to where people draw that line.
For me, there is no "line". I don't have or like separate training and operational setups. To me, that would be too much gamesmanship and, frankly, laziness.
For me, there is no "line". I don't have or like separate training and operational setups. To me, that would be too much gamesmanship and, frankly, laziness.
The separation of "lines" is an instructional/training mechanism. Humans learn better in chunks or steps. I guarantee you that if you're teaching someone to have everything they'll need for their mission on them, you will be infinitely more successful breaking it up into parts and sections than all-in-one-go.
Oh how I miss basic psychology...
-B
I would take the knife off, if you really need a ~6" blade knife, put it on your belt.
I like a vest mounted pistol when I'm driving.
Your setup will evolve based on what you are doing. You may even want 2-3 rigs depending on what you do. One just for classes, one for urban SHTF, rural...you get the idea.
I bought an Eagle/SKD Universal Chest Rig, at $70 you can afford 2-3 easily and set them up how you want.
Nobody will crucify you if it works for you and you are capable of performing with it.
I consider six rifle magazines a minimum to have on my body
I'm curious to know the application here. 6 magazines plus one in the gun, that's nearly 200 rounds on your person.
Failure2Stop
02-20-09, 12:29
In re-reading the original post I regret that I overemphasized a "training" rig. That's where it will probably see the most use, but it's purpose goes beyond that.
From my perspective- have a simple, stream-lined and efficient chest rig for training, competition and personal use. If you want to wander around with your AR and accessible mags you can still use the chest rig, just throw on a pack with the other stuff you need to haul around.
It isn't about being a minimalist, it's about being an efficient realist.
At least to me it is.
Failure2Stop
02-20-09, 12:35
I'm curious to know the application here. 6 magazines plus one in the gun, that's nearly 200 rounds on your person.
In most units the minimum loadout is 7 mags, 6 on the body, 1 in the gun. Usually extra ammo is stowed somewhere readily accessible such as a pack, or in something easily removable from a vehicle.
Some units have a minimum loadout of 12 mags, due to their mission profile and distance from logistical support.
Sometimes we do things that suck up a lot of bullets- and resupply isn't always immediate, whereas a counter-attack usually is.
There is an old saying-
"You can never have too many guns or too much ammo. That is, unless you are swimming."
Reading between the lines reveals the poignance and relevance.
F2S, that's why I asked RWK about his application. I understand that there are some that require large quantities of ammo professionally, but AFAIK Gutshot is a "regular earth person".
theJanitor
02-20-09, 13:14
i have a related observation/question regarding magazine quantities:
If you believe that you NEED 6+1 (7x30=210 rounds) rifle mags for any given scenario, how many pistol rounds do you think is necessary? Do you envision something really catastrophic happening to your primary early on in the mission/fight? what happens if your bolt blows up, your trigger breaks, sheared case, etc and you had to press on IMMEDIATELY with just your secondary? how many magazines do you need then (210 pistol rounds is a helluva lot of mags)? or is this just my over-paranoia getting the best of me?
If you believe that you NEED 6+1 (7x30=210 rounds) rifle mags for any given scenario, how many pistol rounds do you think is necessary
How many rounds do you think it'll take you to get to cover to get your primary back into the fight?
-B
Gutshot John
02-20-09, 14:31
i have a related observation/question regarding magazine quantities:
If you believe that you NEED 6+1 (7x30=210 rounds) rifle mags for any given scenario, how many pistol rounds do you think is necessary? Do you envision something really catastrophic happening to your primary early on in the mission/fight? what happens if your bolt blows up, your trigger breaks, sheared case, etc and you had to press on IMMEDIATELY with just your secondary? how many magazines do you need then (210 pistol rounds is a helluva lot of mags)? or is this just my over-paranoia getting the best of me?
Actually I don't think you need much more than two pistol magazines. My original pictures had three pouches, but I use pistol mag pouches for things like flashlights/multitools and other things all the time.
You carry 7 rifle mags so you don't have to carry all those pistol magazines. If the situation is so bad that 7 rifle mags and 2 pistol mags aren't enough...well that's a whole other story.
The pistol for me is a backup in case of primary malfunction, but most AR malfunctions can be quickly remediated if you have a spare bolt/BCG and a few other things along with a little knowledge. I'd similarly have a spare AR or two lying around. For the weight of a half-dozen pistol mags, I'd rather carry 1-2 more rifle mags.
As a civilian I opt for 7 rifle magazines because I hope it will be more than enough. Generally speaking if I go down in a fight like that it won't be because of a lack of ammunition. I'm not an athlete by any stretch of the imagination, but 6 mags doesn't really feel all that heavy.
Generally speaking I understand and see the wisdom in Rob's argument about carrying so many rifle mags, it's just where I'm going to part ways...for now. Rob's a skinny dude, and I'm a bit bigger, so carrying more mags may seem less bulky to me than it does for him. Once I go through the VTAC class, I reserve the right to change my mind.
BushmasterFanBoy
02-20-09, 14:42
Actually I don't think you need much more than two pistol magazines. My original pictures had three pouches, but I use pistol mag pouches for things like flashlights/multitools and other things all the time.
You carry 7 rifle mags so you don't have to carry all those pistol magazines. If the situation is so bad that 7 rifle mags and 2 pistol mags aren't enough...well that's a whole other story.
The pistol for me is a backup in case of primary malfunction, but most AR malfunctions can be quickly remediated if you have a spare bolt/BCG and a few other things along with a little knowledge. I'd similarly have a spare AR or two lying around. For the weight of a half-dozen pistol mags, I'd rather carry 1-2 more rifle mags.
As a civilian I opt for 7 rifle magazines because I hope it will be more than enough. Generally speaking if I go down in a fight like that it won't be because of a lack of ammunition. I'm not an athlete by any stretch of the imagination, but 6 mags doesn't really feel all that heavy.
Generally speaking I understand and see the wisdom in Rob's argument about carrying so many rifle mags, it's just where I'm going to part ways...for now. Rob's a skinny dude, and I'm a bit bigger, so carrying more mags may seem less bulky to me than it does for him. Once I go through the VTAC class, I reserve the right to change my mind.
I used to have the same mindset, the exact same thought process, down to a T. Let me tell you, after using the SOC-C Molle belt by BFG, I can tell you it'll be a cold day in hell before my chest rig sees any use again. Getting weight off your chest helps you move better, lets you get behind cover better, and just plain lets you move faster.
Where I used to carry 7+1 rifle mags and 2+1 pistol mags, I now carry 2 rifle mags and 2 pistol mags on my belt. If I need more mags, I can grab my chest rig, but it will not be my first piece of gear to don, if at all. Being able to squeeze into awkward positions when shooting behind barricades is much easier accomplished with a belt than a chest rig. No shame in having a chest rig, just think of it as more of a banolier than a platform to hook everything off of.
Of course, that's only my opinion, and its not based on any real HSLD experience, but most of the guys who have been there done that (LAV, Kyle Lamb, Travis Haley, Chris Costa, etc.) seem to have similar ideas.
Some of it is going to be based on your TTPs as well. My thinking is that if I need more than two rifle magazines in an actual fight, I'm good and plenty ****ed, and they'll be picking all those additional magazines off my corpse. As such, I train to deal with the mag in the gun and one more as my primary concern. By default, in training and matches, I wind up training to load from the chest rig as well, but my primary concern is getting that #1 magazine (whether from a Redimag, belt, or pocket) as my emergency load.
With that in mind, my purpose for the chest rig is to feed the emergency magazine location. Run the drill, perform the load, and then back-feed the emergency pouch afterwards.
My chest rig's function is to allow me to carry ammo to the line to replace my #1 mag and not much else.
If you're envisioning a situation or scenario where you might actually get to use more than two magazines then obviously your gear selection is going to differ from mine.
BushmasterFanBoy
02-20-09, 15:03
Some of it is going to be based on your TTPs as well. My thinking is that if I need more than two rifle magazines in an actual fight, I'm good and plenty ****ed, and they'll be picking all those additional magazines off my corpse. As such, I train to deal with the mag in the gun and one more as my primary concern. By default, in training and matches, I wind up training to load from the chest rig as well, but my primary concern is getting that #1 magazine (whether from a Redimag, belt, or pocket) as my emergency load.
With that in mind, my purpose for the chest rig is to feed the emergency magazine location. Run the drill, perform the load, and then back-feed the emergency pouch afterwards.
My chest rig's function is to allow me to carry ammo to the line to replace my #1 mag and not much else.
If you're envisioning a situation or scenario where you might actually get to use more than two magazines then obviously your gear selection is going to differ from mine.
Bingo. You need to work with some sort of "preferred" reload location, like a quick, readily accessible belt pouch, and then tailor how much extra ammo you carry as the situation dictates that you need. Realistically, if you need your AR at all, it won't be more than 90 rounds tops. But if you do, you can always put on a minimalized chest rig that just carries spare mags and feed your "preferred" reload as you need it.
I gotta agree with Rob, this approach works a ton better than just putting 6 rifle and 3 pistol mags on your chest, whether you need just 2 or even 5 mags. Tailor your kit to what you need, and what you will realistically need to have. A good, quick reload on the belt line is worth 7 bungied-up mags strapped to your torso. So a good place to start, would be looking at a way to transfer the important items on your chest rig, to your belt line, where they will be accessible without donning 15lbs of ammo. Your chest rig can feed these speed reload pouches, and even give you the option of leaving the extra weight behind in a hurry, without leaving your important kit behind.
theJanitor
02-20-09, 15:36
The pistol for me is a backup in case of primary malfunction, but most AR malfunctions can be quickly remediated if you have a spare bolt/BCG and a few other things along with a little knowledge. I'd similarly have a spare AR or two lying around. For the weight of a half-dozen pistol mags, I'd rather carry 1-2 more rifle mags.
understood, as i keep a spare BCG with in my gear; but what happens if your primary gets totally fukked up (trigger springs fall apart, bolt/bcg gets wedged in place, gun gets shot, etc.), really quick? can you finish your task/mission with only a couple of pistol mags? for a guy with a 1911, that could leave you with as little as 25 rounds.
maybe i'm just overthinking this. i just assume the worst will happen to me at the worst possible time.
This civvie thinks shoot 'til you're out and run like the wind. :D
-B
This civvie thinks shoot 'til you're out and run like the wind. :D
-B
Roger that! If I'm getting shot at, it's time to depart the area, rapidly.
As a civilian, I have a hard time envisioning a self defense scenario where I'm emptying multiple rifle magazines. There's a point of diminishing returns when adding additional magazines to your load. Added bulk can make it hard to go prone or get small, and added weight makes it hard to run away. I'm not 'moving to the sound of the guns' - I'm breaking contact.
If your requirements mean that you can envision a realistic scenario where you'll need 100 rounds of ammunition because people are shooting at you, you need body armor, first aid and a radio to call your friends before you need to add another 100 rounds of ammo. My two cents.
RogerinTPA
02-20-09, 21:32
Perhaps two vest rigs would be the answer. I actually have three. A training rig (Light & Functional), an old LBE rig, and a body armor chest rig. ;)
Just a couple added notes.
Observation: Strong emphasis is placed on "mission drives gear" and "train as you fight".
Confound: Not all training is equal, and I would argue is highly reliant on the instructor's experience. If the instructor's only experience has been military, or on a small tac team, or LEO, a lot of the mindset will not translate to a readiness-minded civilian. Their missions are/were different than said civilian. Their equipment necessities are/were different than said civilian. Let me explain.
I currently live in Suburbia, FL - squarely between two large metropolitan areas to the south and the more rural areas north of Tampa. If something happened right now it would most likely be one of the following:
A) Home invasion
B) Natural disaster
C) Rushing to defense of friends/loved ones
For a home-invasion, where speed is critical, I'd have enough time to grab the rifle, so it would behoove me to strongly consider a redi-mag for a second magazine (more concerned about mag failure than emptying the whole mag). For post-natural-disaster looter-repellent, the rifle, concealable armor, and maybe a belt-mounted rifle mag pouch would be more appropriate. For item C, the rifle and maybe concealable armor. Right now, for my purposes, I would be best served by a defensive carbine with a redi-mag, a Ready Tactical belt pouch (easy on, easy off), and concealable armor, plus my concealed-carry lineup.
Rifle and three mags, pistol and two mags, possible concealable armor.
But what would I have to carry on me, at minimum, if I showed up to a high-volume shooting course? Four or more extra rifle mags, plus the one in the rifle?
I can see where the confusion comes in, especially when preparing for a training course. Even after you've defined your "mission", you still face the limitations of your training, which can easily require equipment that would be arguably inappropriate for the events you're training for. One might even argue that you'd be tempted to fight like you train, and if you trained in equipment that might be inappropriate for your "mission"...
(In full disclosure, like rharris2163, I'm still planning out a full-armor, plate-carrier-based rig. Just cuz. :o)
-B
I'm curious to know the application here. 6 magazines plus one in the gun, that's nearly 200 rounds on your person.
Application? Anything. If I need my rifle, that ammunition goes with me.
From my perspective- have a simple, stream-lined and efficient chest rig for training, competition and personal use. If you want to wander around with your AR and accessible mags you can still use the chest rig, just throw on a pack with the other stuff you need to haul around.
It isn't about being a minimalist, it's about being an efficient realist.
At least to me it is.
Agreed. My chest rig is a rifleman's rig. Anything else can go on a belt or in a pack.
There is an old saying-
"You can never have too many guns or too much ammo. That is, unless you are swimming."
Seems like I've heard that somewhere before... ;)
F2S, that's why I asked RWK about his application. I understand that there are some that require large quantities of ammo professionally, but AFAIK Gutshot is a "regular earth person".
I don't know whether or not to feel offended by the implication that I'm from outer space... :confused: To me, six magazines really is not an outrageous ammo load. 10+ magazines, sure that's too much for me. (Unless I really am going into Fallujah)
If you believe that you NEED 6+1 (7x30=210 rounds) rifle mags for any given scenario...
If I thought I might need 6, I'd carry 10.
If you're envisioning a situation or scenario where you might actually get to use more than two magazines...
Tailor your kit to what you need, and what you will realistically need to have.
I have a hard time envisioning a self defense scenario where I'm emptying multiple rifle magazines.
Here's where I push back against the "new age conventional wisdom" regarding ammo carriage, i.e. you don't need more than '#' magazines. I don't know what I'm going to need until the time comes. Folks talk about "carry only what you need". Well, how much, or little, is that? What it really comes down to is your best guess. If anyone can accurately, definitively say what anyone will/will not need at any given time, under any/all circumstances, they'd better bottle that shit and make a gazillion dollars off it.
I like to have a contingency for those "you've got to be shitting me!" moments. Part of that contingency is not relying overmuch on anticipated (i.e. best guess), scenario-based decisions such as I won't need 'x' medical gear because EMS is only 10 minutes away; I only need 'x' magazines because the police here have a 5 minute response time, or there won't be more than one or two robbers, etc. When I plan for them to be 10 minutes away, my nearest EMS will be tied up on a multi-car pileup on the Interstate; if I call 911 the nearest police unit will wreck while en route; and if the robbers come there will be a van load.
I must admit that I'm somewhat a product of my environment when it comes to this. I remember well those times of being told things like "you won't need that much water, we're only going to be out for a few hours", "enemy patrols are fire-team size", and "the resupply vehicles will be here any moment". In case A, everyone except me was very thirsty when we were still out the next day. Case B, we ran into a platoon. Case C, no vehicles, no resupply.
There's a point of diminishing returns when adding additional magazines to your load.
Indeed there is. Who can definitively say where that point is, though? I just happen to say it's north of six.
Don't read too much into it. All I was asking was if you used a rifle professionally or if you were a regular non-LE civilian.
For me, rifle plus one mag is optimistic, so I plan/train accordingly.
Don't read too much into it. All I was asking was if you used a rifle professionally or if you were a regular non-LE civilian.
My sarcastic wit doesn't translate too well in print. I was just goofing on you. :p
Undoubtedly, the type of load bearing equipment, the amount of ammunition, the need for other gear, the local environment and your profession all factor into what should be on your chest rig. This forum has a wide range of users - from civilians interested in rigs for training or self defense to law enforcement and military professionals. One size certainly does not fit all, which is probably why there is apparently a thriving tactical gear industry.
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