View Full Version : Limited Ammo Options
In South Africa at the moment our carry ammo options are rather limted at the moment and I was hoping for some advice or some direction to reliable tests. Nothing on the list of recommended loads appears to be available at the moment. There are all sorts of rumours of what is coming in the near future but experience has taught me to believe it when I see it. About the only factory jhp available now seems to be the Winchester 115gr Silvertip and I think I would rather be inclined to carry ball.
Current options seem to be : reloading 124gr XTPs the old Cor Bon version of which seemed to perform alright in the FBI test published on Firearms Tactical. I know most people generally recommend against the use of reloads for Self Defence in the US but our options do limit us.
Next option would be a bullet that I understand was briefly available in the US as the NGA Sentry. This in 9mm is a 60 or 85 gr solid copper full wadcutter. It has a post in the centre of the meplat and a small rim around the edge both I believe there to keep the plastic nose cap needed for feeding in place. It seems the rim may offer a small amount of expansion but I undersand that the bullet is designed to work mainly on the sharp wadcutter profile.
The only importer that seems to be willing to bring in special orders is the Magtech agent. They load a 147gr jhp that may not perform particularly well through barriers but I assume should offer sufficient penetration.
I would really appreciate any advice while we wait for the next batch of ammo on the recommended list arrives.
BuckskinJoe
02-18-09, 12:32
In South Africa at the moment our carry ammo options are rather limted at the moment and I was hoping for some advice or some direction to reliable tests. Nothing on the list of recommended loads appears to be available at the moment. There are all sorts of rumours of what is coming in the near future but experience has taught me to believe it when I see it. About the only factory jhp available now seems to be the Winchester 115gr Silvertip and I think I would rather be inclined to carry ball.
Current options seem to be : reloading 124gr XTPs the old Cor Bon version of which seemed to perform alright in the FBI test published on Firearms Tactical. I know most people generally recommend against the use of reloads for Self Defence in the US but our options do limit us.
Next option would be a bullet that I understand was briefly available in the US as the NGA Sentry. This in 9mm is a 60 or 85 gr solid copper full wadcutter. It has a post in the centre of the meplat and a small rim around the edge both I believe there to keep the plastic nose cap needed for feeding in place. It seems the rim may offer a small amount of expansion but I undersand that the bullet is designed to work mainly on the sharp wadcutter profile.
The only importer that seems to be willing to bring in special orders is the Magtech agent. They load a 147gr jhp that may not perform particularly well through barriers but I assume should offer sufficient penetration.
I would really appreciate any advice while we wait for the next batch of ammo on the recommended list arrives.
Wow, that is enlightening to me that ammunition availability is so extremely limited in SA! I am no termianl ballistics expert, but it seems, in general, that the heavier bullets in a particular caliber (9mm, .40, .45) tend to outperform lighter ones; therefore I would avoid light bullets, absent good data on terminal performance.
I have been reloading for about 30 years, am very meticulous, and almost never have problems with my reloads. Were I in your situation, I would be highly tempted to acquire the best bullets I could and load them myself, but that's just me. Are you able to buy reloading components (bullets, specifically) from the United States?
Wish I could be of more help.
Perhaps Doc will weigh in on this.
losbronces
02-18-09, 13:02
I was told that reloads for personal defense are not recommended in the U.S. because factory loaded defense rounds have flash suppresents that aren't available to reloaders (thus producing less muzzle flash which is an advantage in a night-time action) and that if you are involved in a defensive shooting it is easier for follow-up ballistics tests to be done. I received this information first-hand from a county sheriff who has been involved with defensive shootings and the aftermath.
I think that careful reloads, including proper crimping, will be just as effective in a defensive situation except there will be more muzzle flash.
I had a chance to shoot a couple of boxes of the sentry ammo, was marketed as "New Generation" when I bought it.
Interesting idea, seemed to me like it might be a decent load.
The real issue with reloads is going to court afterwards, which may not be an issue for you since you aren't in the US.
BigT,
If you decided to go with FMJ, go with a 147gr loads. Most 147gr FMJ loads have a flat point which is superior to round nosed projectiles as it crushes and cuts more tissues as it passes. Round nosed projectiles, particularly the 9mm which has a very acute nose, create smaller wound channels because they push a good amount of tissue aside instead of crushing it.
I wouldn't use the full wadcutter loads that you mentioned due to reliability concerns. Full wadcutters have never really been that reliable in auto pistols and you may have some functioning problems during the stress of a shootout. Then of course, those super light weight projectiles will have penetration problems in both tissue and barriers such as windshields and housing materials. I'm not sure what else this South African company offers, but if they offer a standard 124gr+P JHP, that would be the load to go with.
The Magtech ammunition should be "okay" given your options. It certainly won't be as good as using Speer Gold Dots or the other more advanced ammuntion.......but you use what you've got. Magtech makes 147gr JHP which is what I would choose to use. I would prefer to use a 124gr+P JHP as cheaper JHP designs seem to do better with their grain weight and increased velocity, but Magtech doesn't make one. They also make a 115gr JHP, but given the terminal effects history of 115gr JHPs I would not consider using one for self defense. So, I would go with your 124gr XTP reloads(make sure your muzzle velocity is over 1150fps), the Magtech 147gr JHP, or the Magtech 147gr FMJ(flat nose).......but the Magtech 147gr JHP would "probably" be your best option.
Marcus, does the normal FP FMJ profile of auto calibers (slightly rounded in the corners) really increase the "cutting + crushing" effect to a significant degree? I thought you needed a much sharper profile to gain anything vs a rounded point.
What about the tumbling effect of normal 9 mm FMJ due to the somewhat pointed ogive, woulnd't it compensate for the increased crushing effect of the FP?
TiroFijo,
The 9mm FMJ loads that do tumble such as the 124gr FMJRN, often have a very delayed tumble which often does not occur until it has penetrated 9"(23cm) in tissue before it makes a tumble.
http://i480.photobucket.com/albums/rr169/sgalbra76/9mm20US20M882.jpg
The average healthy human torso is only 8" from front to back, so that tumble won't really do a whole lot of good unless you get a flank shot. This has been an observation on the battlefield in which flank hits with the 9mm seem to make a larger exit hole than entrance hole......but you don't really get that effect in a frontal shot very often. A JHP often reaches full expansion after 2" of tissue penetration, and in order to have the most devistating effect on vitals you will need to reach maximum destructive effects at the 4" penetration mark in a frontal shot.
The 147gr flat point isn't as effective as a semi wadcutter because its edges are more rounded, but the flat leading surface does indeed help to create a larger crush cavity than a standard round nose. There is also considerable more cavitation or wake in the bullet path which helps to tear those tissues more effectively instead of just pushing them aside like a round nosed bullet does. The more unaerodynamic the projectile, the more effective it is in crushing and tearing tissue. I've experienced a clear difference between semi wadcutters and round nosed .44mag loads on boars. The semi wadcutter seems to cause significantly more bleed out, the entrance and exit hole is larger, and the incapacitation of the boar "seems" to be more rapid. Then again, I'm not going to assume that it is superior based on incapacitation time due to the great number of variables that effect incapacitation speed.
A good test you can perform to understand how much better a flat point crushes material in its flight path is this. Get a pine 2x4 board, a hammer, and 2 sharp nails. Use the hammer to slighly flatten the point of 1 of the nails so that it resembles a semi wadcutter. Hammer the sharp nail into the 2x4 about 2" from the end.....the board will split because the nail pushed the wood out of the way. Now hammer the semi wadcutter nail into the 2x4 about 2" from the end......the board will not split because the wood in the path of the nail was crushed more than it was pushed aside.
"I wouldn't use the full wadcutter loads that you mentioned due to reliability concerns. Full wadcutters have never really been that reliable in auto pistols and you may have some functioning problems during the stress of a shootout."
Bad info. This ammo has a plastic nose cap that gives it a RN profile, very feed reliable in my experience with the 400 rounds I fired through various S&W 9mms.
Being a solid copper wadcutter I think it would penetrate well.
As an aside, Jim Cirillo thought this ammo looked very promising when I showed it to him during a class he was teaching at a range near here.
My only question would be the general QC of the factory making this ammo.
Thanks for the reply, Marcus :)
What about the RN FMJ bullets that have a more blunt nose profile, like the 45 ACP and 380 ACP? Do the FP FMJ bullets in this caliber still offer any advantage?
I remember Jeff Cooper was a fan of the Hornady 230 gr FP FMJ @ 880 fps, but this was probably based on "feeling" rather than scientific tests.
A few years ago some US Army SF units used a 185 gr FP FMJ +P load (about 1140 fps?), is this load still in use today? Does it offer any advantage over the typical 230 gr RN FMJ @ 830-850 fps?
What do you think of the 115 gr Win silvertip (or any simple, lightweight JHP design) for civilian carry? I know it is a dated design, the penetration is not ideal, nor the behaviour after intermediate barriers, but is the 147 FP FMJ really superior to it for most uses? SA is a warm country where people don't wear heavy clothes most of the time, walls are generally made of brick or concrete masonry (not drywall), and most civilian shooting is not going to involve shooting through cars and windshields.
Hoe gaan dit, BigT? I studied in Pretoria in '91-'92, and I remember the ammo option were limited at times, funny for a nation of dedicated and knowledgeable shooters like SA.
I see PMP offers a 115 gr JHP load:
http://www.pmp.co.za/prod04.htm#hgcsepc
maybe some aficionado at SA have tested it in gel, or perhaps the SAP have done some tests if you have a contact, but this is an unsophisticated design that won't perform like late generation JHPs that are available now in USA.
TiroFijo,
My bad about the wadcutter profile on that particular load. I haven't seen any photos of it. However, if it uses a plastic RN cap, it may not shed that cap reliably and it would behave very similar to a RN projectile. Against human targets not protected by barriers, it would likely do just fine when it comes to penetration. However, against commonly encountered barriers such as car windshields the only loads that reliably penetrate such barriers are those with higher mass and higher sectional density. A .355" copper projectile weighing 60-85gr would lose a considerable amount of its momentum and kinetic energy after impacting the laminated glass construction. Duncan MacPherson did some tests with milled projectiles in copper and steel and the results were the same.
The Winchester 115gr ST is the load that started the 1987 Wound Ballistics Workshop. It is the load that Jerry Dove fired into Michael Platt which did not penetrate deeply enough to reach his vitals through light clothing. It has never with any degree of reliability been able to reach 12" of penetration in bare gel, let alone through commonly encountered barriers. Lets not forget this great piece of wisdom which has remained true in the last 20 years:
"Kinetic energy does not wound. Temporary cavity does not wound. The much discussed "shock" of bullet impact is a fable and "knock down" power is a myth. The critical element is penetration. The bullet must pass through the large, blood bearing organs and be of sufficient diameter to promote rapid bleeding. Penetration less than 12 inches is too little, and, in the words of two of the participants in the 1987 Wound Ballistics Workshop, "too little penetration will get you killed." Given desirable and reliable penetration, the only way to increase bullet effectiveness is to increase the severity of the wound by increasing the size of hole made by the bullet. Any bullet which will not penetrate through vital organs from less than optimal angles is not acceptable. Of those that will penetrate, the edge is always with the bigger bullet." -Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness
.......stay away from the 115gr Silver Tip.
With regard to the more blunted RN bullet designs like the .45acp or 9mm Markov, yes they are "slightly" more effective. Their nose is is less acute taper which will cause more crushing in the bullet's path.....however, the difference is small.
I'm not sure on the current military .45acp load. The 185gr FMJ load will do better against hard targets such as sheet steel, but it won't do as well against windshields as the 230gr load. Picking a light or heavy load aways is a compromise. However, the FBI protocol tests include commonly encountered barriers.....barriers which you will likely encounter anywhere in the world. In those tests, the heavier bullet weights always perform better.
Beat Trash
02-20-09, 09:14
BigT,
I have no experience with the loads you mention. But I might be able to offer some advice.
I work for a Department of around 1,200 officers. Our issued ammuniton is Winchester's 147gr JHP. This is the original 147gr loading by this company. Very low tech by today's standards. But this loading is, I assume, similar to the 147 gr loading you can obtain by MagTEch.
I would definitely prefer to be issued something else, and I carry different ammunition while off duty, in my own guns (Winchester's Ranger-T 147gr loading).
One of the main reasons we can't convince our administration to switch ammo is this simple argument. In every Officer involved shooting our agency has had, the round either worked, or the issue was shot placement. (The real reason is the administration doesn't want to switch, is due to our city counsel bitching about COP's wanting "more lethal" ammunition). The last OIS involved a close friend of mine trading shots with an individual from either end of his vehicle. The suspect went down with a shot to the leg, followed by a shot that entered next to the rectum, and traveled upward through the intestines, to be found just below the lung. The guy lived, though stopped shooting. Even though this officer is one of my closest frineds, the issue here was shot placement.
While I am not trying to say this type of ammunition is great, by today's standards, it's far from it. I am saying it beats a sharp stick in the eye. In your situation, I'd try to obtain some of the 147 gr MagTec rounds. Provided they are reliable, I'd prefer them to FMJ ball ammo.
I'd rather have people who train and practice, utilizing good shot placement and good tactics, loaded with 124gr FMJ ball ammo work next to me than people carrying the latest ammunition available in the United States, but who's shot placement and tactics suck...
But then, I'll be the first to admit I'm no expert, just a beat cop....
Thanks for the responses chaps I appreciate it. To give a bit more info. The ammo situation here hasnt always been this bad and there are rumours of decent stuff becoming available again but I will beleive that when I see it. Pricing could prove problematic when it does arrive though hence my exploring other avenues.
Strangely decent 40 and 45 ammo is a bit easier to find but at the moment I wish to go back to 9x19 as I shoot my Glock 17 better than my 23 and the nature of the threat profile here makes a hike in capacity preferable.
with regards to reloads that is unlikely to be the issue here that it is over there so legal problems with there use are not really an issue for me. In fact if I were to go the Sentry route I would reload them myself as I have seen issues with the factories QC. Marcus makes a good point though about barrier performance which I didnt consider. I guessed that their construction and design would allow sufficient penetration but I get the point about hard targets. Barrier performance is an issue for me as a lot of shootings here are in and around cars.
The choices as far as ball go would pretty much be 115gr stuff I dont remember ever seeing any 147 gr FMJs here. I would rather not go this route but would prefer it to any of the 115gr JHPs I see available.
The XTP bullets are readily available which is an appeal. The 147gr Magtechs arent currently available but the agents are said to be willing to special order for us so a group of us could get together and arrange a bulk buy. If anyone is aware of another Magtech load which would be a better choice please let me know.I have considered First Defence but in less scientific water test results I have found they look to penetrate a little bit on the shallow side.
unfortunately the SAPS are limited to ball so it is unlikely that they would have tested the PMP load.
sorry for the long post an once again Dankie Manne!
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