View Full Version : Effective range for Colt m4 vs. mark 12 mod. 0
Hi guys, hope are doing well. I was wondering if some of u more savvy ar guys can tell me the diff. b/t effective ranges b/t a 16.1" 1/7 colt m4 vs. any 18" spr or mark 12 type 223. gun. Im just getting into this sick disease... so pardon if its a rook question. I finally got a colt, and love it; however, for many yrs i have really wanted a nice mark 12 type capable of longer ranges, but for me being a bit green behind ears i cant seem to justify getting another 2000$ plus gun for just a cpl. inch's.
Hard to say, depends on a lot of things. I have a powerpoint from Crane attempting to quantify that... I would say that using military ball and an aimpoint, the M4 is at best a 300 yard weapon. I've shot it to five but with diminishing returns. Call it three. Put an ACOG on it, maybe five. With an ACOG and MK262, maybe six. I've not shot an actual MK12, but I've shot a 20" SS rifle with 75s and a Leupy MK4 to eight with solid results.
Like Ryan says it depends on what you want to do. Do you want to hit something at 400 or something at 900 yards?
A 16" AR is quite capable of making hits out to 800yards depending on the guy pulling the trigger, the optic, the trigger etc. It is easier than you think.
16" 1in7 twist SS LW50 barrel and 2 stage trigger 1.1-4power scope
http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo277/camz_pics/G%20and%20G/17%20inch/FinalARs03.jpg
With a just a 4power optic on a mid-length 1in9 twist barrel here are some targets at 600 & 700 yards....
Taping the 500yard target
http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo277/camz_pics/G%20and%20G/Shooting/082607500yards.jpg
The two groups below were shot with a mid-length 16" 1in9 twist chrome lined RRA barrel, a 1.1-4x26mm scope with ACOG type BDC, 2 stage RRA trigger and shooting surplus M855, but there was an accomplished Marine rifleman pulling the trigger, so that may be a variable...
600yard target on the left 700yard target on the right
http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo277/camz_pics/G%20and%20G/Shooting/082607600700.jpg
Your Colt, with a decent optic, is capable of punching holes though things out to more than 800yards.
Cameron
MisterWilson
02-18-09, 11:34
I came across this very informative PDF that I believe was written by our very own ammo guru Doc.
It should answer your question in full....I just can't upload a 3 meg PDF here.
Anyone want to host it?
trunkmonkey
02-18-09, 11:49
As stated above it depends on your definition of effective fire. And what effect your looking for.
I've personally put rounds on a vehicle size target with a colt 14.5 M5 at 900 (lasered) yards with a 2x acog.
In the sitting position. Of course not everyone can do this.
Wilson,
Please send it to me...
I will host it on my server.
PM inbound.
Chen
MisterWilson
02-18-09, 11:54
It's out to ya bud.
Hi guys, hope are doing well. I was wondering if some of u more savvy ar guys can tell me the diff. b/t effective ranges b/t a 16.1" 1/7 colt m4 vs. any 18" spr or mark 12 type 223. gun. Im just getting into this sick disease... so pardon if its a rook question. I finally got a colt, and love it; however, for many yrs i have really wanted a nice mark 12 type capable of longer ranges, but for me being a bit green behind ears i cant seem to justify getting another 2000$ plus gun for just a cpl. inch's.
Centurion Arms has one of the most accurate SPR upper on the market, when KAC need a SPR sample for their collection, they contacted Centurion Arms.
As far as the differece, the SPR are good at longer range shooting, but really depens on what range you shoot at and what is available to you...like for me, I shoot from CQB out to about 400yrds, that is the max range I have access to in my area, so a 16inch gun will do okay, i can hit steel targets out to 400y with my MRP all day long, but I won't call that grouping for shots.
If you want something other then dinging steel, you want to get groups and become more proficient with long range art, then you might want to invest in a SPR or even a nice Bolt gun...
If youjust want a SPR... get one from Centurion Arms, you won't regret it.
http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/centurionarms/huge/IMG_0925_1_2.jpg
The 5.56 goes subsonic around 750 yards I think, give or take barrel length and bullet (I don't have the ballistics program on my computer here at work, and I'm ignoring bullets like 80gr Matchkings handloaded and shot individually). So while you can get out to 800+, I would say accuracy and effectiveness definitely suffers as you are trying to accomplish something the round was not intended to do.
Knowing how challenging shooting a custom boltgun (308) at 800 can be due to wind, I can only imagine the nightmare such distances must be with a much lighter bullet. :eek:
During the 3 Day SPR Sniper Course that I took we used DPMS rifles that I believe were the Mk 12 configuration. Students used Black Hills 77gr. Match ammo. The scopes were Leupold and I believe that they were the 2.5x8. By day 3 we were consistently hitting targets out to at least 900yds. and I believe that one or two of us made shots just over 900 yds. None of use had any previous type of training other than basic rifle and some CQB.
So, in my opinion it comes down to the proper combination of equipment, ammo and the shooter. The instructor used a PoF .308 gun with a 12" or 14.5 barrel (can't remember which) and I watched him make hits out to at least 700 yds. using both Black Hills and and .MIL issue LR118 ammo.
I think the most important thing is ammunition. BC really starts to matter. I've shot the AR to a thousand but the bullets were sub sonic by then and accuracy was REALLY bad.
Like Ryan says it depends on what you want to do. Do you want to hit something at 400 or something at 900 yards?
A 16" AR is quite capable of making hits out to 800yards depending on the guy pulling the trigger, the optic, the trigger etc. It is easier than you think.
16" 1in7 twist SS LW50 barrel and 2 stage trigger 1.1-4power scope
http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo277/camz_pics/G%20and%20G/17%20inch/FinalARs03.jpg
With a just a 4power optic on a mid-length 1in9 twist barrel here are some targets at 600 & 700 yards....
Taping the 500yard target
http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo277/camz_pics/G%20and%20G/Shooting/082607500yards.jpg
The two groups below were shot with a mid-length 16" 1in9 twist chrome lined RRA barrel, a 1.1-4x26mm scope with ACOG type BDC, 2 stage RRA trigger and shooting surplus M855, but there was an accomplished Marine rifleman pulling the trigger, so that may be a variable...
600yard target on the left 700yard target on the right
http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo277/camz_pics/G%20and%20G/Shooting/082607600700.jpg
Your Colt, with a decent optic, is capable of punching holes though things out to more than 800yards.
Cameron
awesome info and replies as always guys! Thanks. Now if only i can have a sweet piece of land like cameron has in the pics. Doesnt get much better than acres for miles in any direction, an ar and lots of ammo. Any shooters in Alabama who shoot at 500 plus yds that know of pay or public locale to do this type of punching. For some reason i think i would love to dig metal at 500 plus.
PALADIN-hgwt
02-18-09, 21:06
xxxxx
I'm not entirely sold on using 5.56 platforms for long range sniping. Sure, great shooters under good conditions can make hits. Ask that same shooter if he'd rather use a 7.62 Nato or 300 Win Mag weapon.
I can understand why the .mil might use 5.56, but a civilian or LEO user doesn't have supply logistics or other constaints regarding weapon/caliber choice.
Paladin
Aim small and miss less, I suppose. Practicing at 500+ yards with a .223/5.56 probably does a number for your confidence for making a precision shot at closer distances. I know practicing at 15-20 yards with a handgun makes 5-10 yard shots a helluva lot easier...
SMGLee, I'd be interested in seeing the Crane PDF, too. :)
-B
Hi guys, hope are doing well. I was wondering if some of u more savvy ar guys can tell me the diff. b/t effective ranges b/t a 16.1" 1/7 colt m4 vs. any 18" spr or mark 12 type 223. gun. Im just getting into this sick disease... so pardon if its a rook question. I finally got a colt, and love it; however, for many yrs i have really wanted a nice mark 12 type capable of longer ranges, but for me being a bit green behind ears i cant seem to justify getting another 2000$ plus gun for just a cpl. inch's.
The difference between a 16" gun and a 18" gun isn't much. Typically though, the SPR will give you better accuracy (if it is built well).
C4
I've looked a few places for a centurion upper but have not had any luck finding one, perhaps i can email centurion arms. Do u guys know who has these uppers sometimes, and price for them usually? Thanks so much guys, members here are so extremely helpful and i def. dont take all the advice and help u guys give me for granted.
I've looked a few places for a centurion upper but have not had any luck finding one, perhaps i can email centurion arms. Do u guys know who has these uppers sometimes, and price for them usually? Thanks so much guys, members here are so extremely helpful and i def. dont take all the advice and help u guys give me for granted.
PRI has MK12 Mod 0 uppers. They use Douglas 1:7 barrels. Mine shoots quite well with 77g Nosler match.
Failure2Stop
02-19-09, 12:21
As stated above it depends on your definition of effective fire. And what effect your looking for.
This is a very important point.
What is your perecived precision requirement, and at what distance do you need to apply that precision?
What is your definition of effective? The ability to put a bullet through a piece of paper or the ability to incapacitate a lethal threat with a non-CNS hit?
The only reason that i want a mark 12 is because all the seals are using them these days, even the members not in dms role. Just kidding but if these ghosts endorse them, then i def. want one. Ok first Darkop i would love to see a pic of bad boy if u have one avail. Failuretostop i really am a paperpuncher most weekends, however i get ever now and then out to hunting camp where i have set up a nice sweet 500yd shot. So really i have no idea what a good group would be a 500yds, maybe id like to be w/in prob. 3" if that is reasonable at 400 to 500yds.
Failure2Stop
02-19-09, 17:31
So really i have no idea what a good group would be a 500yds, maybe id like to be w/in prob. 3" if that is reasonable at 400 to 500yds.
You are not going to be able to consistently achieve 0.6 MOA from an AR at 500.
I rarely use absolute terms like "never" or "always", but this expectation is not readily achievable.
Yes, there are consistent 0.5 MOA ARs, but not at those kinds of distances consistently. Just because a gun will print a 1/2" group at 100 yards (0.5 MOA, which is very good for an AR) does not automatically mean that it will have a 2.5" group at 500 yards (especially with a relatively small bullet such as a 5.56) - there are a whole lot of factors that affect the bullet's path that are not in play at closer, more relvant distances. I am not a ballisitican and there are plenty of other members on here who are more informed in the subject, so I will leave the details to them.
Beyond that- terminal performance of a 5.56/.223 bullet at 500 yards is insufficient for the ethical taking of game above the size of a ground-hog. Exit wounds at those ranges (if it exits) will also generally be small and will not leave much of a blood trail for you to track your quarry once the shot has been taken.
If you really want to be able to take game at long distance you would probably be better suited with a different caliber.
Beyond that- terminal performance of a 5.56/.223 bullet at 500 yards is insufficient for the ethical taking of game above the size of a ground-hog.
+1
On another board discussing long-range target shooting, a newbie logged on and asked how he should take a deer at 900 yards with his GA Precision .308. Best answer?
"Hike 800 yards and take the shot". :p
vicious_cb
02-19-09, 21:03
+1
On another board discussing long-range target shooting, a newbie logged on and asked how he should take a deer at 900 yards with his GA Precision .308. Best answer?
"Hike 800 yards and take the shot". :p
I dont think hunting is the issue here. The issue here is hitting the target since it doesnt matter how big the bullet is if you miss!
That being said the longest reported kill with the mk12 was ~700m.
trunkmonkey
02-19-09, 22:43
The only reason that i want a mark 12 is because all the seals are using them these days, even the members not in dms role. Just kidding but if these ghosts endorse them, then i def. want one. Ok first Darkop i would love to see a pic of bad boy if u have one avail. Failuretostop i really am a paperpuncher most weekends, however i get ever now and then out to hunting camp where i have set up a nice sweet 500yd shot. So really i have no idea what a good group would be a 500yds, maybe id like to be w/in prob. 3" if that is reasonable at 400 to 500yds.
If your looking to hunt it would be extremely unethical to use a round that does not have a very high likelihood of killing your target animal with one shot.
As well as taking shots that you do not have a very high expectation of hitting your target where it will have the highest likelihood of killing the target with that shot.
If you have no idea of what a good group is at 500 yards then I assume that you do not shoot at that distance at all. Therefore I highly doubt you have the skill to do what I said above.
Every guy seems to want to take the big nuts long range shot for some ego trip.
Im not real sure how hunting got brought into this discussion, but to clarify i def. don't hunt with ar's. So im not at all interested in the terminal ballistics of 223/556 @ 400 to 500 yds but rather if u can group nicely with 223/556 through a mark 12 platform @ these ranges. Thanks so much guys for all the responses and advice!
I will however make a few coyotes day turn bad with a 223.
P.S. i have commonly taken trigger time at 350 yds with my bolt guns buddy, but maybe it is my ego getting in the way from seeing that i should just assume that an ARs grouping @ 400 yds is relatively the same as a nice bolt. LOL.... I usually leave my ego at the doorstep esp. when im enjoying my few sacred hobbies, so if i take a 500 yd shot i can promise its b/c it makes me tingle in my naughty place, not b/c of a slong measurement or a pink steak!
Failure2Stop
02-20-09, 01:55
Im not real sure how hunting got brought into this discussion, but to clarify i def. don't hunt with ar's.
Sorry if I misunderstood, but this is what I was going off of-
i really am a paperpuncher most weekends, however i get ever now and then out to hunting camp where i have set up a nice sweet 500yd shot.
Apologies for the misunderstanding on my part. I just assumed that since you noted that it was a hunting camp that you were going to use it to hunt. My bad.
FromMyColdDeadHand
02-20-09, 23:16
Wasn't in Afganistan where two guys with MK12/MK262 combo had 77 rounds for 75 kills? I never say the direct source on that.
It used to be able to find that Crane report by searching for mk262. It was pretty cool, it compared MK262 and M855. I remember it looked at penetration and barriers along with accuracy. Wished I had saved it.
1.6 rounds per enemy KIA for the MK12 weapons system, or so I hear.
It's interesting that a group who would advocate a shot on an enemy at ranges for which the cartridge capability wanes, prohibits the same length of shot at an animal--in the name of ethics.
Somehow if my enemy is gutshot, crawls off and dies slowly thats an acceptable outcome, but if I do that to a deer I would feel bad.
haha...reminds me of the movie quote "we have a f*ed up barometer for success." Mind you, I'm not saying I disagree....
It's interesting that a group who would advocate a shot on an enemy at ranges for which the cartridge capability wanes, prohibits the same length of shot at an animal--in the name of ethics.
There is a huge difference between Bambi and Hadji.
FromMyColdDeadHand
02-21-09, 01:00
Deer don't fly airplanes into buildings, blow up road side bombs, or cut the heads off of cute bunnies. They do taste good when cooked, and look good mounted on the wall, but then UBL might present well to; he might be a bit gamey though.
FromMyColdDeadHand
02-21-09, 01:04
1.6 rounds per enemy KIA for the MK12 weapons system, or so I hear.
Keep that on the lowdown. BHO will just take the CIA number of Jihadi's, multiply by 1.6 and pull everyone out and leave one poor bastard in the Green Zone with a the rounds and a Bushmaster rifle and proclaim "Mission Accomplished".
It's interesting that a group who would advocate a shot on an enemy at ranges for which the cartridge capability wanes, prohibits the same length of shot at an animal--in the name of ethics.
Ethically, the group is probably okay with an enemy wounded, conscious, screaming in durka, drumming his heels on the ground and distracting the crap out of his pals because the round wasn't instantly fatal. I know I am.
Versus having to chase your food...? :)
It's interesting that a group who would advocate a shot on an enemy at ranges for which the cartridge capability wanes, prohibits the same length of shot at an animal--in the name of ethics.
U guys are the pros but several times some reputable gun guys told me the us went to the 556 for 2 main reasons, First is weight so that the avg. GI can carry more rds. The second one i find extremely hard to believe but maybe u guys know, but anyway the us wanted a round that didnt actual kill instantly but rather wound and maim enemies all the while having the terminal ballistics to kill a target if shot is placed in proper kill area. This sounds crazy though.
By the way those Mk12 KIA stats and such make me urn for much more real hero stats. AWESOME tidbits guys.
one more thing to keep in mind, westmoreland in vietnam used this round with the first black rifle to employ is highly debated " Kill Ratio" strategy. If im not mistaken while the kill ratio plan was deployed for almost 3/4ths of the war the stars and bars had a 10 to 1 advantage. So this round/gun is wrapped in history of the un-ethical killing of scumbags and democracy haters since its inception. Maybe someone should start a PETA type org. for all the scum rocket jihadist to join downrange.
I think there are to many factors to really give a definite answer.
With an M4, if your shooting into a 10 mph full value R-L at 300 meters, your aim point should be off the right shoulder of the target to hit center mass since the bullet will impact more than a foot off without compensating for the wind . The same wind at 500 meters, uncorrected the bullet will strike 4 feet off your aiming point. Thats just one factor.
RogerinTPA
08-12-09, 19:20
I'm more interested in shooting smell bearded bad guys at the max effective distance. Outside of 200 meters, fragmentation is no longer your friend, and an effective (kill shot) would greatly depend on the skills of the shooter, ammo and weapon, for terminal accuracy to the cranial housing group, or CNS. I have competed at ranges out to 600 meters, but that was with a match grade AR, and "match" everything else. It was quite the task, just to shoot 1000 meters at Camp Perry with a Match grade M1A and match ammo, with just Iron sights. Even then, 7.62x51 seemed to lose a lot of steam (velocity averaging around 500fps, +or-, depending on the ammo) at that distance. The rounds were impacting the dirt behind us in the target pits, some 20 to 30 meters away. The rounds that seemed to hold velocity, was the guys shooting .300 mags and up.
Some may be able to ding steel at 900 meters with 5.56, but the round itself would probably be easily caught by anyone welding a catchers mitt. Add in any other variables, wind, temperature, sunny, cloudy, what conditions your weapon was initially zeroed at, even elevation, that's different from where you are currently shooting from, and you have ballistic nightmare on your hands, if not trained to recognize and deal with those factors.
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