Lever Action Carbines

[PA PATRIOT]

Say one was going to use a Lever Action Carbine in the 16"inch barrel range as a truck gun while traveling the county, what would be some of the positives or liabilities of such a system? Starting at .357 Magnum Thur the new Marlin .308 what would be the ideal balance of terminal performance/accuracy/capacity?

[DocGKR]

Pro's:

-- Traditional appearance that is socially and legally acceptable in many areas that a "scary" looking "military" rifle might be problematic.
-- Light, handy, and easy to carry.
-- Relatively inexpensive.
-- Good terminal effectiveness.

Con's:

Slow to load and re-load.
Can be more difficult to clear serious malfunctions.
Reduced accuracy potential.
Harder to mount optics.

I am not a fan of .357 Mag carbines, however, a .44 Mag and hot loaded .45 Colt are great options; a 16" .44 Mag Marlin 1894 shooting Hornady 300 gr XTP's (or the either the 240 or 180 gr) is a formidable weapon--even handier and quicker if an Aimpoint T1 is mounted on top...see: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19930.

.30-30 lever actions are about as ubiquitous a shoulder fired weapon as one is to find in the America. With light bullets, .30-30 offers similar wound ballistics to expanding 7.62x39mm loads; with heavier loads, .30-30 offers deeper penetration and better intermediate barrier ability. In any case, from a terminal ballistic perspective, .30-30 generally beats 5.56 mm. If it was primarily going to be used indoors, the Federal 125 gr JHP is a good choice; outdoors, a good 150-170 gr JSP is more versatile.

If you need protection from larger game, a .45-70 16-18” barrel Marlin Model 1895G is extremely impressive; you can use a light load like the Winchester Partition Gold 300 gr JSP for most of the lower 48 states or a hard hitting load like a Buffalo Bore 405gr JSP if facing threats like Grizzly... Downside is heavier recoil and smaller magazine capacity.

[MarshallDodge]

I think it's a great idea. I have a Winchester 94 Trapper in 45LC that I have loaded some hot 230grain Gold Dots in and would have no issues using for defense. It definitely has more energy than what comes out of a 5" 1911.

With some practice, the cowboy action boys can lay down the firepower with lever guns.

One other issue is pointed ammo, it's a no-no in a tubular magazine. There are more choices out today but you can't shoot everything in them.

[Marcus L.]

So, you want a trunk weapon which I assume you want as a general purpose protection gun. Likely scenarios might be defending your motel room or cabin from an intruder......dealing with an aggressive/violent motorist on the side of the road.......who knows. In the vast majority of those circumstances, you'll likely not be dealing with anything further away than a couple of car lengths. Why not go with a Remington 870? If you need to bring your weapon into your sleeping quarters.....it doesn't get any better for close range protection than 00-Buckshot. If you need a 100-200yrd carbine, you can used quality reduced recoil slugs. Then of course if you need large, dangerous game protection hard cast slugs are hard to beat. The 870 operation is reliable, simple to operate, and you can go short barrel with 4+1 capacity, or extra long barrel with 8+1 capacity. A highly versitile weapon. Plus, loading 12-gauge shells into a tube magazine is a little easier than loading cartridges into a tube magazine.

[CleverNickname]

If I were wanting a trunk rifle and didn't want to go with an AR for whatever reason, I'd probably go with a Remington 7615. They're relatively cheap ($500-ish), have the same pump-action that I'm used to with an 870, and use STANAG magazines. Even if you're stuck with 10-rounders for legal reasons, it'd still be superior than a tube magazine-fed rifle.

[DocGKR]

Unfortunately the Remington 7615 blows chunks--I'd rather have just about anything else...

[Beat Trash]

Unfortunately the Remington 7615 blows chunks--I'd rather have just about anything else...


So Doc, why don't you tell us what you really think of the Remington 7615?

Sorry, had to do it, almost spit coffee out my nose when I read your reply...

[Beat Trash]

Phila PD,

Is it safe to assume you are not concerned about protection from animals (the four legged kind)?

The 16" lever action carbines have some things going for them, but it is my experience that some of the pistol caliber carbines can be picky to the type of rounds they feed with reliability.

I only bring this up as I have seen Marlin 357 carbines that have issues with some rounds, and some act up if the carbine is at an angle while the action is being cycled. When these guns have a jam, it's a PIA to clear. If this were to happen during a defensive type of critical incident, well...

I might offer up the M1 carbine as an option also. Using some of the JSP rounds helps the effectiveness.

The Remington 870, as has been previously mentioned, would also be a viable option.

[PA PATRIOT]

While I can be armed in any stated due to the Federal Law Enforcement Carry Act my primary carry Glock Model-17 or 26 is loaded up with Federal Tactical 147gr HST per DocGKR's recommendation. But since the family and a lot of expensive gear will be in tow on this cross country trip which has many lay overs both Urban and Rural I figure a long gun would be a wise companion. As I do not wish to freak out any one who may catch a accidental glimpse of one of my Evil Black Rifles I was thinking more of my Winchester Trapper 16"inch 44 Magnum. I have a store of factory Remington's 180gr H/P's which I was hoping would suffice on unarmored two legged predators in a rural settings. I can also go with a 870 or M-4 so I figured that I better tap the vast knowledge of the forum to help make a selection.

[PA PATRIOT]

DocGKR,

I did a function and accuracy test about a month ago using 180gr loadings from Remington, Winchester, Federal and PMC and I was not able to really tell any difference in muzzle flash between the brands from my 16"inch carbine. This was done on a indoor range which was dimmed when the booths over head light was shut down. Was the excessive muzzle flash with the Remington from a Handgun only or also with the carbine? I selected the Remington based that it was the most accurate of the 180gr brands fired, all brands were 100% function. As to why I went with the 180gr pills my thinking was the lighter and faster slug would expand quickly causing more damage on two legged predators then the heavier weight and constructed 240+gr loads.

[Fail-Safe]

Dr Roberts, I'm glad you're invovled in this topic as I have a couple of questions.

Since a lot of people seem to like them, what are some of the issues with the Remington 7615?

I saw your tacked thread pertaining to various .44mag loads, and I was curious if you ever tried the Winchester Platinum Tip(aka Hunting Ranger Talon)?

As for 30-30, I have purchased some of the 160gr Hornady LeverEvolution, put I'm hesitant to use them for 2 reason: 1. I havent read any independant testing, 2. Hornady's others plastic nosed projectiles had issues(albeit they are pistol rounds).
Are you planning on testing the LeverEvolution stuff anytime soon?

[Gutshot John]

30-30 has killed a lot of deer and is likely to be everywhere. I'd advise against getting an exotic caliber.

As Doc said .357/.38 .44/.45 is nice if you want to carry a revolver in the same caliber. Lever actions get the most out of a revolver cartridge, but it's still somehwat limited relative to 30-30.

However they're not as light as one might think. They're definitely heavier than a fully-loaded AR and maybe an AK.

What do you think of an M1 carbine?

[DocGKR]

We have not tested Winchester Platinum Tip or Hornady LeverEvolution--if we get a chance I'll see what we can do, but it is not a priority given the other projects currently needing action.

A large agency nearby tried the Rem 7615's with numerous functional problems; while Remington markets them stating agencies can easily transition due to a similar action as the ubiquitous Rem 870, the 7615's did not prove to be as robust or foolproof as 870's...

M1 carbines are great: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19956

[Disciple]

How about a Puma 92 in .454 Casull/.45LC for the application?

[sproc]

I am not a fan of .357 Mag carbines
Why is that?
Thanks

[PA PATRIOT]

Why is that?
Thanks


I was thinking that the .357mag 125gr S/P or another 125gr bonded bullet out of a 16" barrel would be coming close to the M1 with the 110gr S/P ballistics wise. Terminal performance maybe a whole other story so DocGKR could you give a quick post on the short comings of the .357mag carbine.

[DocGKR]

If I am going to be using a pistol caliber round in a carbine, I want the biggest, fastest bullet possible to maximize permanent crush cavity, as well as get some stretch effects from the larger temporary cavities possible with these loads. Since I am shooting it out of a shoulder fired weapon, recoil is much less of a concern than with a handgun. Most of the big bore pistol cartridges can make good lever action carbine loads if good projectile selection is followed--I prefer .44 Mag because it offers very good terminal performance, is readily available, and reasonably priced. If for some strange reason all I could get was a .357 Mag lever action carbine, I'd use Win 180 gr Partition Gold.

[sproc]

Doc, for those of us who already have a .357Mag lever carbine, would you recommend the same list of defense ammo you do for handguns?

And am I the only one who finds .44Mag carbines to have more recoil than a 12ga?

[DocGKR]

As noted above:


"If for some strange reason all I could get was a .357 Mag lever action carbine, I'd use Win 180 gr Partition Gold."

I have honestly never noticed any significant recoil on my 16" Marlin 1894 shooting Hornady 300 gr XTP's...

[LonghunterCO]

I shoot a Win 73' .45Colt during cowboy matches. Although I love the 73' I am not sure of a steady diet of hot .45s. I just got a lightly used 30-30 Marlin 336CS for a heck a price and with my exp with the 73' I would have no issues with using it as a truck gun.



-could use a XS peep sight or a red dot though;)

[PA PATRIOT]

Sorry bad link

[PA PATRIOT]

Just added this red dot site to my Winchester Trapper 16" .44mag and I must say I was surprised how well it worked out. I got the mount which offered the protective body for the optic since the trapper will be a truck gun. The second thing I did was swap out the wood stock and forearm with a synthetic one which saved another half pound and should be a bit stronger.

http://www.burrisoptics.com/images/PiccatinniProtector.jpg
Burris Fast Fire II

http://www.burrisoptics.com/images/fastfireII.jpg

[DrJSW]

I quite agree with DocGKR's statements vis a vis using a large-bore, fast pistol caliber round in lever action carbines. I came to appreciate the ergonomics of the lever carbine when I took up cowboy action shooting a decade ago or so, and as it happens when I got into an off-duty situation where my (squad/cruiser-ready) Winchester M1892 .45 Colt was the only long gun at hand, I did not feel at all undergunned.

The Winchester and Marlin 1894 platforms in 357 Magnum can be handloaded to performance levels that approach the venerable .30-30, but one has to ask, "why"? If you want a .30-30, buy a .30-30. I do not favor tube-magazine weapons as fighting guns as a rule, whether shotgun or rifle... but in the case of a shotgun, I know each round carries a lot more wallop than most carbine rounds do, so I still train and deploy my M&P shotgun at biannual qualification time.

The sole advantage of a pistol-caliber lever carbine vs a rifle-caliber lever carbine is magazine capacity. You can feed 10 rounds of .44 Mag or .45 Colt in there, but only 4-6 rounds of .30-30, .358 Win, or .45-70. And reloading these rifles is SLOW. I've done many courses of fire requiring reloading the empty lever gun, and it sucks. It's faster (I've done the timed drills) to reload a double action revolver with loose ammo than it is to reload a lever carbine with loose ammo, which tells you it really sucks. Once you have become habituated to reloading your carbine with box magazines, it's really hard to return to the 19th century.

Hence my new quest for a Saiga 12-gauge shotgun for 3-gun matches and less formalized shooting situations.

Lever guns are cool, but the tube magazine can be a serious liability in a gunfight. My truck rifles are NOT lever guns. Not since my near-lotsa-paperwork experience.

I have two PD-surplus 760's (.308 Win) with a bunch of box magazines that have been flawless performers for me. I also very much like my recently acquired M1 carbine. Gary doesn't like the 7615, but I have no experience with that one. The 760 does not blow chunks in my hands.