View Full Version : Overheard at the range
Along the lines of Greg's Dumbest things overheard at the gun shop (http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=26703) thread ...
Last night: "Shooting is a frangible skill."
Other favorites from the past:
"You guys please stop shooting so fast. It's distracting my students."
"You guys are shooting so fast you're making little red sparks on the target." (shooting steel ... we were using Lasergrips)
"I hope my double-taps weren't distracting you." (guy who hit his silhouette target twice out of 30 shots at 10yd)
"Hey, Lance!"
Sidewinder6
02-24-09, 11:11
As in your rounds splatter in all directions when you dont practice?? :D
John_Wayne777
02-24-09, 11:34
Stupidest thing I've heard on the range:
The sound of a file being pulled out of a toolbox as two hopeless individuals tried to sight in a S&W 642. They apparently needed to file down the front sight to sight the weapon in for the owner of the revolver who was shooting 2 foot groups at 5 yards.
Shooting can be a frangible skill, but...not usually.
Bad habits are not easily broken.
Nathan_Bell
02-24-09, 12:56
Along the lines of Greg's Dumbest things overheard at the gun shop (http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=26703) thread ...
Last night: "Shooting is a frangible skill."
Other favorites from the past:
"You guys please stop shooting so fast. It's distracting my students."
"You guys are shooting so fast you're making little red sparks on the target." (shooting steel ... we were using Lasergrips)
"I hope my double-taps weren't distracting you." (guy who hit his silhouette target twice out of 30 shots at 10yd)
"Hey, Lance!"
LOL :p
"Good enough for deer"
This was a guy who was shooting at 25 yards with a slug gun and had hit the paper plate 2 out of 5 times.
"You shouldn't shoot those targets, it will make folk think you want to shoot people"
I was using silhouette targets that I swiped from the originator of this thread ;)
"Check out THIS group"
Guy had fired 10+ rounds and had finally managed to get 3 to touch.
LOL :p
"Good enough for deer"
If I only had a dollar for every time I heard that one.
Only I don’t hear that one at the range often, because the people who say it don’t go to the range much.
sandman99and9
02-24-09, 13:32
Went to a range a couple of years ago and my famous words that I heard,
Range is cold ..............BOOM !!!! a round goes off as we start down range !!!
Last night: "Shooting is a frangible skill."
Yeah well, don't practice and see how fast skills disintegrate.
Coming from a young guy with a very attractive girl friend "this is the last time I'm going to tell you not to point that at me."
From my brother in law after i had told him to slow down and try to hit the target during a pause (milk jug at 25 yards with my LMT).
"nah,accuracy by volume!"
He finally hit it with one of the last five rounds(of 30).
"See!thats what im talkin bout!".
:rolleyes:
I heard they typical red flag statement "Hey watch this!" and watched (from behind a dumpster) this kid with a pre ban colt sporter take 25 rounds to hit a small bottle of tannerite that was placed inside a toaster oven that was about 25 yds away.
-DM-
FromMyColdDeadHand
02-24-09, 14:40
Coming from a young guy with a very attractive girl friend "this is the last time I'm going to tell you not to point that at me."
Hmm, that's what my wife says to me.
From my brother in law after i had told him to slow down and try to hit the target during a pause (milk jug at 25 yards with my LMT).
"nah,accuracy by volume!"
He finally hit it with one of the last five rounds(of 30).
:
Someone isn't buying the ammo that they're shooting.
Accuracy by volume is pretty funny though.
"Don't worry, it's unloaded!"
(Guy I know was shooting his SKS, the bolt got stuck in the closed position somehow; as he says the above quote he has the butt on the ground, his boot on the bolt handle trying to force it open and the muzzle pointed more or less at his face. They finally get the bolt to open and out pops a live round)
I don't go shooting with him anymore.
Jay Cunningham
02-24-09, 14:57
From an LEO this past weekend:
Man, I need to bring my OTHER gun next time!
referring to less than stellar shot placement on IDPA targets.
Someone isn't buying the ammo that they're shooting.
5.56 75gr TAP no less!:mad:
I was still function testing it at the time though.
I cant recall the last time the guy paid for anything.At least he's consistent i suppose.
It wasnt the first time he embarrassed me at the range...but it was the last i think.
FromMyColdDeadHand
02-24-09, 18:55
"Right hand twist barrels are for north of the equator and left hand twist south of the equator". I actually said it and I had a couple of guys going for a bit.
From my brother in law after i had told him to slow down and try to hit the target during a pause (milk jug at 25 yards with my LMT).
"nah,accuracy by volume!"
He finally hit it with one of the last five rounds(of 30).
"See!thats what im talkin bout!".
:rolleyes:
I work with a couple of former Marines, that say that quite a bit.
Here's a good one...
About a year ago, when I was going thru training for my new employer, we were shooting practice quals in the rain. At the time the qual still went out to 50 yards, where the shooting points are covered.
One of the instructors joked, " Don't forget to aim high, to compensate for the rain". I just chuckled.
After a few more runs, and trips down range, the shooter on the point next to me, but opposite relay, asked me why he was shooting so high, " Do you think I'm compensating to much for the rain?"
After I picked myself up off the ground, and regained my composure, I asked him if he was for real? Then the backpedaling started...."Uh no, well.....it makes sense though"
Keep in mind, this is from a guy who's been quoted as saying "its not the quantity, its the amount".
Over the years I've heard so many dumb things at the range and the gun shop, I can't even begin to remember.
Bob
From an LEO this past weekend:
Man, I need to bring my OTHER gun next time!
referring to less than stellar shot placement on IDPA targets.
That sounds like me! :D
I had to qual and shot a 289/300 with my USP first try, and tried to qual with my 92FS that I haven't touched since last Feb and got a 166/300:p It was quite embarrasing:o. Went back yesterday after a weekend Beretta practice session and got a 240/300 so I feel better:p (we qual with our carry gun every qtr, but only once a year with all of our other 'authorized' guns (off duty/back-up/dept issued/etc)).
One of the instructors joked, " Don't forget to aim high, to compensate for the rain". I just chuckled.
Reminded me of another ...
I was at FLETC (Cheltenham) a couple years back doing a demo for SIG. The agency that was evaluating our weapons brought the SIGs and other brands to the only available range, which happened to be the 100yd indoor.
When we walked onto the range, someone quipped about how impossible it would be to hit the (huge) Transtar targets a hundred yards down range. Ernest Langdon (then at S&W) and I just sort of shrugged and said it wouldn't be that hard.
At which point the FLETC instructor present said, serious as could be, "The ceiling is too low, you couldn't compensate for bullet drop at that distance."
At which point the FLETC instructor present said, serious as could be, "The ceiling is too low, you couldn't compensate for bullet drop at that distance."
That's funny. Considering that the standard pressure .45acp has an average drop of 28" at 100yrds, he'd have to be using a load at around 600fps to have trouble with an indoor ceiling.
Not all cops are idiots, but not all cops are gun savvy either. A lot of cops see a firearm as one of many tools of the job and don't look into the finer points of its mastery. I would expect that FLETC would have a bit better caliber of instructors. I'm going up to Brunswick this summer and hopefully I won't have to listen to such nonsense. A friend of mine just got his instructor cert and I was suprised at his lack of knowledge of the mechanics of a firearm.
FLETC-Glynco story: (not actually on a range, but close enough)
Instructors for a certain agency are complaining to me that their SIGs are arriving not zeroed. A lot of the guns are shooting way to the right, a lot of the guns are shooting way to the left. Horrible QC. End of the world stuff. About 1/4 of the guns are messed up.
I go to the range and sure enough, a whole lot of the guns have their rear sights on completely out of whack. I call my boss at the factory and scream my head off.
Fast forward a few hours.
Talking to some of the instructors, they start bragging about how they've incorporated dry fire into the initial firearms program so that recruits are doing significant dry fire before they ever hit the range.
Then one (of the four ... follow?) instructors explains that a lot of his students are holding the guns in such a way that he can tell before they ever get to the range that the sights need to be drifted. And so he was adjusting their sights right or left. During dry fire.
I would expect that FLETC would have a bit better caliber of instructors. I'm going up to Brunswick this summer and hopefully I won't have to listen to such nonsense. A friend of mine just got his instructor cert and I was suprised at his lack of knowledge of the mechanics of a firearm.
I'm convinced that most " firearms instructor courses" consist of two weeks of learning to yell "front sight, front sight" to shooters that aren't doing well, and one week of learning to properly string out the word "squeeeeeeeeeeze" for those that don't get fixed with the front sight command.
Bob
RogerinTPA
02-24-09, 21:02
Just this weekend, 3 Arfcom guys (Complete with t-shirts, hats and sandles) 2 stalls down, laughing and talking loud as hell about their skills and the superiority of the BM and Stag, over Colt. After IDing them, I completely ignore them.
1st engagement: The really fat guy walks over to me, while I'm taking mine out of the case and setting up, says, "What kind of AR do you have? I said "A Colt 6920". He says, "That's over priced. You should have bought a Stag". My reply, in a very calm manner, "You only think that because you don't know, what you don't know." He turns around and walks away.
2nd engagement: After shooting a few drills, the tall lanky guy walks over to me and says, "What kind of sling do you have?" I said: "A Blue Force Gear LAV sling" He says, "You should have a VTAC sling instead". And he walks away.
3rd engagement: The third guy walks over while I'm reloading after some pistol drills and asks, "Hey, is that an Omega rail you got there?" I said, "No, it's a Lite rail". He says, "But it's a Daniel Defense rail right? I say, "That's correct" and continue to load mags. He says, "You should have got the Omega." I said, in a loud voice so his buddies can hear, "What is this? **** with Roger day? Are you guys done?" He turns around and walks away. They just stare at me for the rest of the time I'm there.
FWIW, any time someone tells me my gear is sub par, I put $20 on the table and ask them if they'd like to shoot for accuracy, speed, or both ... winner take all. Hey, where are you going? Are you looking for the ATM? I'll be right here waiting ...
I work with a couple of former Marines, that say that quite a bit.
"Accuracy by volume"?
I think he probably heard it on The History Channel.
May have been a Marine who he was quoting though...probably running a M249 and still doing a better job of conserving ammo.
"As long as there's lead in the air, there's hope"
Yeah, hope for the ammo manufacture.
Jay Cunningham
02-25-09, 04:05
Wanna-be junior ATF guy at range: "That's illegal."
Me: "Here's my cell phone, call the police and have me arrested."
QuickStrike
02-25-09, 04:58
"It's normal for AR's to jam, they aren't like 1911's."
This coming from someone who thinks that spraying bullets is a better tactic than aimed fire. Buys the cheapest mags, ammo and optics at gunshows.
And another:
"Bushmaster > Colt. I wouldn't take a Colt AR if someone gave it to me." :rolleyes:
Wanna-be junior ATF guy at range: "That's illegal."
Me: "Here's my cell phone, call the police and have me arrested."
I love those guys.
I took a new youth model .308 to the range one day and created a nice pile of brass at my firing point. A 2-box-per-annum seasonal type sauntered over to visit, looked at my rifle, and wanted to know where my kid was. Explaining that I prefered a short LOP, short barrel, and lower powered scope, he offered to take me to his favorite shop so that I wouldn't get ripped off again.
Following that, he speculated that the max range for such a rifle was 50yds or less. I asked him if he'd hold my target for me at 100. Blank, uncomfortable stare.
Following that, he declined to take his own rifle and shoot the 200yd steel I had used to create the brass pile. Even with the ammo being on me.
I took a new youth model .308 to the range one day and created a nice pile of brass at my firing point. A 2-box-per-annum seasonal type sauntered over to visit, looked at my rifle, and wanted to know where my kid was. Explaining that I prefered a short LOP, short barrel, and lower powered scope, he offered to take me to his favorite shop so that I wouldn't get ripped off again.
Following that, he speculated that the max range for such a rifle was 50yds or less. I asked him if he'd hold my target for me at 100. Blank, uncomfortable stare.
Following that, he declined to take his own rifle and shoot the 200yd steel I had used to create the brass pile. Even with the ammo being on me.
it's amazing how shooters that don't persue any training, shoot very often, or read much about guns are just full of opinions. :D
"Accuracy by volume"?
I think he probably heard it on The History Channel.
May have been a Marine who he was quoting though...probably running a M249 and still doing a better job of conserving ammo.
Um.....no.
Bob
exkc135driver
02-25-09, 19:47
it's amazing how shooters that don't persue any training, shoot very often, or read much about guns are just full of opinions. :D
It's very common for stupid, ignorant people to express their opinions, loudly and forcefully.
Just look at the recent election.
I arive at a public rifle range 1 hour before you can legaly shoot on a sunday. I find a guy and his girlfriend in thier jeep in the middle (50yds) of the range shooting an ak with full 30rd mags as fast as they can. Buy the way you can only have 3rnds in a mag on pubic ranges in PA. When he drives back to the benches I politly tell him you can shoot till 12 and the game wardon stops by often and wont like the jeep on the range too much. He says "how should I know that?" I tell him that if he shot from the benches like normal people he would have seen the signs on EVERY bench with all the rules. He walks over, reads the sign then says to his girl friend "shit we gotta go." Not even two minutes after they leave a State Trooper pulls up and asks me and my buddy if we we were shooting before noon. We told him about the Jeep and he leaves fast , as he said he just passed them on the road in. I have seen guys get hundreds in fine for stupidity at this range.
CarlosDJackal
02-26-09, 00:14
Back when I was still shooting a Ruger P-95. A guy and his buddy comes over and makes a remark about how my Ruger was "j-u-n-k: junk" (at least he can spell).
He pulls out his pistol (I forget what make and model); loads up and starts blasting away - in between malfunctions. I load up my junky Ruger and blast away through two full 10-round magazines (thanks to the klintonites and the brady bunch) without a single hiccup. His buddy turns to him and states, "At least his piece of junk doesn't jam."
After shooting the same guys come over and strikes up a conversation. Mr. Dufus with the malfunctioning gun states for a fact just how big a crap Glocks are because of the huge gap between the slide and the frame. I just had to bite my tongue. :rolleyes:
Littlelebowski
02-26-09, 00:26
Nothing overheard but in the same spirit.....
I was at the 50 yard NRA range shooting at 50 yards with my trusty Swedish Mauser; "Heidi." Besides me is this cat with a pimped out AR10 of some sort and a high dollar scope. Group for group, I smoked him with at least a 30 year old open sighted Swedish Mauser. I was embarrassed for him. I was wondering if he was on this site....
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h251/baxshep/DSCN06591.jpg
On an Army basic training rifle range with a strong crosswind from the right I heard a young soldier say to the other young soldiers near him something to the effect of, "You know, we're zeroed out to 300 meters and these targets are at most 275 meters and we have no time limit, there isn't any real reason we should miss any of these."
Even with his ear plugs in the drill sergeant overheard him, turned around, and asked, "Which one of Annie Oakleys said that?"
Bad part was, I had to admit I was the one.
Dumbass.
Sidewinder6
02-26-09, 10:20
Reminded me of another ...
I was at FLETC (Cheltenham) a couple years back doing a demo for SIG. The agency that was evaluating our weapons brought the SIGs and other brands to the only available range, which happened to be the 100yd indoor.
When we walked onto the range, someone quipped about how impossible it would be to hit the (huge) Transtar targets a hundred yards down range. Ernest Langdon (then at S&W) and I just sort of shrugged and said it wouldn't be that hard.
At which point the FLETC instructor present said, serious as could be, "The ceiling is too low, you couldn't compensate for bullet drop at that distance."
Having spent considerable time at Glynco as a guest instructor (not firearms) and spending time with some of the Firearms unit in other places I can only say your touching on the very tip of the iceberg in your FLETC recollections. Some of the old timers from there could have you wetting your pants laughing in about 10 minutes with some of their ledgendary encounters.
Failure2Stop
02-26-09, 12:00
I was at a course about a year ago when an "instructor" "teaching" shooting on the move enthusiastically explained that exaggerating the steps made for a more stable and lessened trip hazards. He then proceeded to demo said technique by prancing about the range, looking every bit like Elmer Fudd trying to sneak up in a wascally wabbit. I seriously don't think you could have a worse SOM technique if you were wearing one snow-shoe and an ice-skate.
Ass-hat telling a group of shooters while shooting at 10 yards-
"Just look over the ACOG, you can see the bullet holes in the target for correction of your next shots."
Me-"Uh, I'm pretty sure that that is a dumb technique. You aren't going to be able to see shots going into a person under these circumstances."
Ass-hat- "Nah, you can see the entry wound pretty good. Anyway, good enough to pass the qual though."
Me- "You have no idea what you are talking about, do you?"
Me walking away to avoid stabbing him to death with a stripper clip.
"Instructor", when questioned, telling shooters that the "Range Constant" is what rounds you will be shooting at the given distance.
There are so many it isn't funny anymore. Thank god I have started to forget them.
worst thing i've recently heard????
CLICK!!!
detective running the stress course just realized that he had forgotten to chamber a round after cleaning the firearm......from the previous qualifying session 2 months ago.
....mental note to self........don't have detective for backup on felony warrents.
worst thing i've recently heard????
CLICK!!!
detective running the stress course just realized that he had forgotten to chamber a round after cleaning the firearm......from the previous qualifying session 2 months ago.....mental note to self........don't have detective for backup on felony warrents.
From a detective, arriving for a qual: Do you have a gun I can use? Mine is at the office.
Same guy was fond of asking to borrow the BUGs of others for more important tasks, too.
About 3 years ago, at Shooters Paradise in No. VA (range has since burned down). Background: the range allowed rifle-caliber fire, but the target had to be all the way down to the 25 yd mark.
Was shooting a 9mm MP5 at the 15 yd mark. Range employee stops me, tells me rifle (?) shooting has to be done at 25 yds. I show him the mag w/9mm ammo. He doesn't budge. I suggest he confirm the policy with the manager and come back - - if the manager agrees with him, I'll send the target all the way down.
He comes back in 3 min, and tells me that it looks like I know what I'm doing, so he'll let it go.
True story.
We had a FLETC crew at our site teaching a handgun course. They were outstanding and role models for all instructors. However during the carbine component (1 day) of their week here, they were rather confused by my Colt and it's Schmidt & Bender. While some of them claimed a history of HSLD jobs (NSW, State Department SRT, etc.), they were very unfamiliar with the idea of a 1-4 power optic with red dot.
After being the butt of jokes about using a scope from prairie dog hunting, I closed the front cover, turned on the dot, and used the S&B as a red dot OEG. That really stumped them, but they shut up when my group size remained the same.
Before I relocated to the great state of Texas I saw more than my share of asshattery on the previously mentioned PA public ranges.
The most memorable was probably the old guy who stood up and started walking downrange while 20+ other people with rifles were still firing. When I yelled to him to ask him what the hell he was doing, he replied that "my target is there, and ya'll are shooting over there, so it's ok".
No shit.
At the same range I got hit by falling shot coming over the side berm on several occasions when yahoos at the adjacent trap range started shooting at clays in the wrong direction.
I miss those ranges, though, where I'm at now it's a 2 hour drive in any direction to get access to a usable rifle range.
Brasilnuts
03-01-09, 17:51
Guy at the range was shooting a Para Warthog (I think) I noticed a couple of guys from another lane were talking to him and trying to help him with a problem so being as we were the only people on the range I decided to go have a look myself.
I ask him what was wrong and he replies "The slide is stuck closed." I ask if there is a live round in the chamber? (his girlfriend had been shooting when it malfunctioned) He says "I don't know" and as quick as that he points the pistol at his face to try to look down the barrel. I was stunned at the stupidity and before I can say anything he points it back to the ground and says "It's to dark to see, but I have a flash light in my truck."
Officer at the range today...
I shoot low to keep from getting sued if i kill them..
and most notable how do you adjust these sight it shoots low and or low left.
Finishing a session at my blissfully totally empty range, an old fudd walks into the shooting area, sees all my brass (i'd fired about 800 rounds of 45 and 556) and says "so YOU'RE where all the ammo is going!!"
i cracked a big smile at the wit, then let it melt as he continued to scowl at me as though I *actually was* responsible for the nation-wide ammo shortage. all i said was "seriously?" he was done shooting before i even finished sweeping my brass.
DANGER CLOSE
03-01-09, 20:48
when shooting the smg at work, the lead instructors would spout off to aim low left because the muzzle rises up and right on the colt smg 9mm on burst. :confused:
every one else does so and is scattered all over the target. all the while telling them to extend the stocks all the way out. i push in my stock a notch or two and keep blowing out the 5 ring.:D
kaiservontexas
03-01-09, 21:43
One time I was at the range the range officer kicked a group out, for what I do not know.
They got into the parking lot, got into their car, and then fired off their 12 gauge.
That freaked me out bad. They were laughing as they drove off real fast. They popped it off into the air. Talk about . . .
"This Tasco is a really nice scope, it tracks well"
WIN :D
TangoChaser
03-02-09, 11:27
Instructor at an advanced urban combat course was telling us how inaccurate full auto fire was. He let each student shoot a 30rd mag at a 25 meter target to prove his point. He starts by having a fellow student place their hand on the back of each shooter to keep them from rising too much off target while shooting. OOOOKKKKAAAAYYYY!
Bullets are all over the target like a shot pattern. Mostly due to the other student pushing on the shooters shoulder during firing.
So, I'm the last shooter. I tell the guy behind me not to touch me when I shoot. I've done this before. I take a slightly lowered shooting stance and proceed to put all 30rds in about a 10" circle with 17 going into the 6" bullseye we were using.
Instructor gets all pissed because I screwed up his teaching point. I neglected to tell him I was shooting an M16A1 when I joined the Army and fired full auto quite a bit in my early days. I was 40 something and the next youngest in the class was in his late 20's.
Instructor gets all pissed because I screwed up his teaching point.
= bad instructor.
Better solution would have been to say, "There you go. Out of x-number students, we had one who can control the gun well enough on full auto to make good hits, if he's in a strong stance." Praise the guy who did well, make sure the other guys know they didn't learn how by osmosis in the past 30 seconds, and drive on.
Business_Casual
03-02-09, 12:16
I was doing transitions at the NRA Range Friday. One round from the carbine, one click and then transition to the side arm.
The guy next to me: "Dang, that thing packs a wallop! What gauge is it?"
M_P
sandman99and9
03-02-09, 12:49
I was doing transitions at the NRA Range Friday. One round from the carbine, one click and then transition to the side arm.
The guy next to me: "Dang, that thing packs a wallop! What gauge is it?"
M_P
Now that is funny stuff !!
S.M.
How about this,
We recently had the opportunity to observe just what a specific round/bullet will penetrate and how much.
Most heard comment..."it would've went thru more, but it did not have time to build up velocity". Apparently there is some new RAP(rocket assisted projectile) round I am unaware of.
This dovetails with some experience back in the service..
An Army manual indicated that the 5.56 will penetrate more sandbags at 100mtrs then 25(not sure on the exact distances, if anyone know's the manual and distances, I'd appreciate the refresher). When I ask my squad "why?" I got a vague reference to "the grain" and, yep, it builds up more velocity!
When you try and explain that the bullet is going as fast as it will ever go the exact moment it leaves the barrel, it will only slow down, they look at you like a dog lookin at a ceiling fan.
Bob
HolyRoller
03-02-09, 22:42
"What are you talking about?"
From our instructor in basic LE training, in response to my question:
"Uh, L-T, do you mean to be loading that 9-mil with .380s?"
When I walked by the bench where our instructor was jamming mags for his M9, something didn't look right. Sure enough, the box from Lois Bidder Reloads Inc. said "9mm Luger" but was full of .380s. And our instructor hadn't even noticed the extra space in front of the bullets. 9x19, 9x17, same difference. I managed to convince him to put the right rounds in, so I still don't know what happens when you try to shoot an M9 with .380s in front of a class of police recruits.
At Trail Glades Range in Miami where I used to live, people were surprisingly well-behaved, and I purposely paid no attention to anybody else if I could help it, so no stories come to mind. Except one time a couple of grownups brought one of their sons along, who kept asking lots of questions and drawing increasingly annoyed answers. Finally he asked "what happens to bullets after they're shot?" "sighhhh ... they go to heaven, Danny."
LonghunterCO
03-03-09, 00:13
Ok I will play. Shooting on a 25yd outdoor pistol range, single long narrow bench running the length of the firing line, full firing line with the exception of the spot next to me. Three young pre/early 20s kids step up next to me one of the has a big black garbage bag that seems to be fairly full of something bulky. My buddy next to me asks a question and I turn to answer him. Afterward I turn back around in time to see a dark brown beer bottle, mid-air, about two feet out of one of their hands. Then BOOM. One of them smokes it about 15 feet from the bench with a pistol grip model 500. Glass goes everywhere.
My buddy and I scraped everything off the bench into our shooting bags and ran straight to the car. We have not been back since.
Failure2Stop
03-03-09, 10:20
Most heard comment..."it would've went thru more, but it did not have time to build up velocity". Apparently there is some new RAP(rocket assisted projectile) round I am unaware of.
Man, I can't believe I forgot about this one!
Overheard "instructors" talking about the .50 BMG. Apparently some dude took one to the leg due to a series of critical failures, however, the .50 bullet simply went in and out of the thigh- hitting nothing of greater importance than the muscle. Anyway, this led to great confusion since the .50 is supposed to cause all your cells to implode if it passes within 20 meters of your position and makes people explode like groundhogs when actually hit.
The concensus- it hadn't gotten "up to speed" yet when it hit him. And just like Bob's experience when I explained the fallicy of their deductions they stared at me with a mixture of confusion and insultedness.
Why do fairly normal, mostly rational people think that bullets follow some alternate physics model?
Man, I can't believe I forgot about this one!
Overheard "instructors" talking about the .50 BMG. Apparently some dude took one to the leg due to a series of critical failures, however, the .50 bullet simply went in and out of the thigh- hitting nothing of greater importance than the muscle. Anyway, this led to great confusion since the .50 is supposed to cause all your cells to implode if it passes within 20 meters of your position and makes people explode like groundhogs when actually hit.
The concensus- it hadn't gotten "up to speed" yet when it hit him. And just like Bob's experience when I explained the fallicy of their deductions they stared at me with a mixture of confusion and insultedness.
Why do fairly normal, mostly rational people think that bullets follow some alternate physics model?
hopefully someone else can also get input on this situation. can't track it down but i remember reading about an attempted hit that failed because the muzzle had been pressed against the skull, reducing the velocity and resulting in a traumatic but non-fatal wound. anyone else have input on this?? the weapon used in this case was a .22 and that might factor in, but when they were doing the calcs they determined the guy should have died except that the round hadn't reached max velocity. Hmmmm, or maybe this is all an illusion and i'll wake up thinking it was a dream..................:o
How about this,
"It would've went thru more, but it did not have time to build up velocity...
When you try and explain that the bullet is going as fast as it will ever go the exact moment it leaves the barrel, it will only slow down, they look at you like a dog lookin at a ceiling fan".
Bob
The crazy version I heard, was that the barrel's lands (as in lands & grooves) causes friction against the bullet and retards its acceleration until it 'releases' out of the muzzle where it is accelerated by the buring powder behind it for a short distance without the barrel friction, until air drag overcomes the slight increase in acceleration and the bullet begins to decelerate. :eek: (BTW, I don't believe it...max acceleration (and thus, velocity) is at the muzzle).
.
.
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Failure2Stop
03-03-09, 10:55
. . . muzzle had been pressed against the skull, reducing the velocity and resulting in a traumatic but non-fatal wound.
This is pure speculation on my part but here is my thought on the matter-
Muzzle contact may have caused a tight enough seal to prevent the gas within the barrel to be pushed out of the barrel when fired, causing greater back-pressure to the operating system. Provided that most autoloading .22 rim-fires are blowback operated and that the pressure required to accelerate a light .22 bullet and operate the operating system is fairly low, the pressure could cause the operating system to begin extraction before the bullet reached sufficient velocity within the barrel to penetrate the thick bone of the skull.
As it is the skull is pretty tough and even full sized pistol rounds occasionally have difficulty penetrating it.
hopefully someone else can also get input on this situation. can't track it down but i remember reading about an attempted hit that failed because the muzzle had been pressed against the skull, reducing the velocity and resulting in a traumatic but non-fatal wound. anyone else have input on this?? the weapon used in this case was a .22 and that might factor in, but when they were doing the calcs they determined the guy should have died except that the round hadn't reached max velocity. Hmmmm, or maybe this is all an illusion and i'll wake up thinking it was a dream..................:o
Hmmm, could this be possible if the gun was held HARD against an immovable object (like a skull against a wall, or something) to the point that the air in front of the bullet couldn't escape and just compressed, slowing the bullet?
Edited to add: posted this before seeing Failure2Stop's post . . . thinking along the same lines, although I think the bullet would be pretty-much petered out by the time the operating system began cycling. Just guessing, though.
Howdy!
When I cant shoot outside, I usually go to an indoor range in my area.....
So I'm shooting at this range with an NRA instructor next to my lane (teaching a class) and a couple of guys shooting a .45 next to the NRA instructor.
a) the NRA instructor gets kicked out for muzzle sweeping everybody and shooting the pulley system inoperable. (how would you like to be in his class?)
b) I am shooting a silhouette target with an M4 @ 25yrds. I bring the target back to find half a dozen .45 holes from the guys 2 lanes down!
I checked my myself for holes and I called it a day :cool:
Bill
HolyRoller
03-03-09, 19:24
hopefully someone else can also get input on this situation. can't track it down but i remember reading about an attempted hit that failed because the muzzle had been pressed against the skull, reducing the velocity and resulting in a traumatic but non-fatal wound. anyone else have input on this?? the weapon used in this case was a .22 and that might factor in, but when they were doing the calcs they determined the guy should have died except that the round hadn't reached max velocity. Hmmmm, or maybe this is all an illusion and i'll wake up thinking it was a dream..................:o
I can't immediately find my copy, but The I-5 Killer by Ann Rule tells the nice story of Randall Woodfield, who went around with a stolen .32 Long Colt revolver and one box of ammo, molesting and murdering up to 18 young women. He shot two of his first victims in the back of the head at either contact or point-blank distance. The bullet penetrated and killed the first victim on the spot. He shot twice at the other victim, who fell over, and he left her for dead. But both bullets curved around her skull under the skin, and she lived to help put him away for life. It also helped that he stole a revolver in an oddball caliber, and the person at the store that sold him the box of ammo still remembered him years later.
There's a thread at another forum about failure to penetrate skulls, noting that it happens even with .308s sometimes. Small, slow pistol bullets may or may not happen to hit a thin part of the skull, or hit at a shallow angle, or any of many factors that I'm not qualified to comment on--but the Doofus Brigade always is.
FromMyColdDeadHand
03-03-09, 20:46
Howdy!
When I cant shoot outside, I usually go to an indoor range in my area.....
So I'm shooting at this range with an NRA instructor next to my lane (teaching a class) and a couple of guys shooting a .45 next to the NRA instructor.
a) the NRA instructor gets kicked out for muzzle sweeping everybody and shooting the pulley system inoperable. (how would you like to be in his class?)
b) I am shooting a silhouette target with an M4 @ 25yrds. I bring the target back to find half a dozen .45 holes from the guys 2 lanes down!
I checked my myself for holes and I called it a day :cool:
Bill
Were you Firing Line shooting a conversion kit?
I was at Green Mountian (old K2?) and I felt better there. They are actually watching via CCT and seemed to be more strict.
Hmmm, could this be possible if the gun was held HARD against an immovable object (like a skull against a wall, or something) to the point that the air in front of the bullet couldn't escape and just compressed, slowing the bullet?
Edited to add: posted this before seeing Failure2Stop's post . . . thinking along the same lines, although I think the bullet would be pretty-much petered out by the time the operating system began cycling. Just guessing, though.
both ideas might have been the case, pressure build up in front of the bullet acting like an air spring combined with early blowback releasing pressure too soon. what kind of .22 was it ? long, short, c.b.?
sounds like one for the mythbusters to try, or the box 'o truth guy
both ideas might have been the case, pressure build up in front of the bullet acting like an air spring combined with early blowback releasing pressure too soon. what kind of .22 was it ? long, short, c.b.?
sounds like one for the mythbusters to try, or the box 'o truth guy
i want to say it was a 22 LR, but the grey matter isn't 100% on that. gonna have to dig for the info now..........got me curious to get specific. sheesh, and i come here to relax and learn.
Were you Firing Line shooting a conversion kit?
I was at Green Mountian (old K2?) and I felt better there. They are actually watching via CCT and seemed to be more strict.
No I was not at the firing line.....might have to give Green Mountain a shot (pun inteneded)
I had a guy today tell me that the A2 birdcage flash hider really hurts the accuracy on his RRA. He said "in my 5 years in the Marine Corps, I became an expert on this gun and that A2 flash hider killed my accuracy compared to my vortex".
I had a guy today tell me that the A2 birdcage flash hider really hurts the accuracy on his RRA. He said "in my 5 years in the Marine Corps, I became an expert on this gun and that A2 flash hider killed my accuracy compared to my vortex".
hmm.. he's been listening to dealers. the vortex does CLAIM to increase accuracy, but i'm sure its only by a fraction of a fraction of 1 MOA if its true at all. can't remember what the claim is.
I had a guy today tell me that the A2 birdcage flash hider really hurts the accuracy on his RRA. He said "in my 5 years in the Marine Corps, I became an expert on this gun and that A2 flash hider killed my accuracy compared to my vortex".
Hah! Sounds like a variation of the classic dope-behind-the-rifle-not-dope-ON-the-rifle excuse, doesn't it?
"in my 5 years in the Marine Corps, I became an expert ".
Rarely does anything worthwhile follow a statement like that.
How about...." don't mix TW25B and Break-free, it will crystallize":rolleyes:
And, "why did they lube this gun, now its all dirty" again...:rolleyes:
Bob
randyman_ar
03-08-09, 21:20
"No it's not a Glock! It's a Highpoint!! The working mans pistol. Bought a case of ammo with the money I saved."
Click
Pow
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Click
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"****in cheapass bullets!"
The Bunker, Searcy Ar., February 09.
As close to word for word that I can remember.
"No it's not a Glock! It's a Highpoint!! The working mans pistol. Bought a case of ammo with the money I saved."
Click
Pow
Pow
Click
Click
Click
Pow
Click
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"****in cheapass bullets!"
The Bunker, Searcy Ar., February 09.
As close to word for word that I can remember.
LMFAO....best one in this thread yet:D
From a buddy at work:
He goes to an outdoor range, and was told by the genius running the place that he had to have his ammo (.38 spl) inspected prior to firing. So my friend shows the guy his ammo and is told "you can't use that brand because it sparks out of the barrel and can start a fire." Really? The guy then tried to sell him the "right" kind of ammo at $23.00 for 20 rds. My friend got his range fee ($20 per hour per person, WTF?!?) refunded and left.
HolyRoller
03-09-09, 18:22
I had a guy today tell me that the A2 birdcage flash hider really hurts the accuracy on his RRA. He said "in my 5 years in the Marine Corps, I became an expert on this gun and that A2 flash hider killed my accuracy compared to my vortex".
ohhhhhkay ... then how is it that my match A2 with A2 flash can shoot well above expert at 600? Even with me, a mere sharpshooter, my rifle has scored 181-6x at 600, and this rifle is also a proud owner of a wooden dollar for hitting X on the first sighter at 900. Now if the flash is misaligned and dinging the bullet on the way out, yeah that will do it, but otherwise, drive on.
Ridge_Runner_5
03-10-09, 04:20
Ok I will play. Shooting on a 25yd outdoor pistol range, single long narrow bench running the length of the firing line, full firing line with the exception of the spot next to me. Three young pre/early 20s kids step up next to me one of the has a big black garbage bag that seems to be fairly full of something bulky. My buddy next to me asks a question and I turn to answer him. Afterward I turn back around in time to see a dark brown beer bottle, mid-air, about two feet out of one of their hands. Then BOOM. One of them smokes it about 15 feet from the bench with a pistol grip model 500. Glass goes everywhere.
My buddy and I scraped everything off the bench into our shooting bags and ran straight to the car. We have not been back since.
Cherry Creek? My story takes place there...
I had just gotten my GSG-5 carbine...getting lots of ooh and aahs there once I pull it out and start popping rounds on the range...eventually the range officer walks up to me between sessions and leans in and says "Nice gun. Personally, I'd just buy the pistol version and put a stock on it. Nobody has to know"
My jaw about hit the floor:eek: I turned to him and whispered "Okay, I aint gonna call the ATF on you..." and packed up and left...
Ridge_Runner_5
03-10-09, 04:24
"No it's not a Glock! It's a Highpoint!! The working mans pistol. Bought a case of ammo with the money I saved."
Click
Pow
Pow
Click
Click
Click
Pow
Click
Pow
Click
"****in cheapass bullets!"
The Bunker, Searcy Ar., February 09.
As close to word for word that I can remember.
Probably didnt clean and maintain it...
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b100/89Sunbird/Shooting/9mm.jpg
"WTF are you doing pointing a rifle downrange when the cold range light is on and people are hanging targets?"
"It's okay, I'm just sighting the target. I'm not shooting"
John_Wayne777
03-10-09, 07:55
Most disturbing thing I've overheard at the range:
"Picture me naked!"
LonghunterCO
03-10-09, 08:18
Cherry Creek?
Rampart Range above the Springs.
Jay Cunningham
03-10-09, 11:38
Most disturbing thing I've overheard at the range:
"Picture me naked!"
lol!!11
:D
O.K., since there isn't a thread for "Dumbest Thing Ever Heard About Guns, Ever." I have to post this here because this thread made me remember the story, and I've been getting tons of laughs out of other peoples responses:
When I lived in Oregon I worked at a high end metal shop, and we had a packer that packed up all our products for shipping. He was in his late 40's and not that bright (he was a packer for crying out loud).
Before hunting season started me and the guys in the shop were talking about getting ready to go that weekend to get some birds. He proceeds to tell us his one and only hunting story:
"My friend asked me go with him, and I told him I had never fired a gun. He said not to worry, that it was easy, and to just show up at his house. I showed up and before we climbed in the truck he handed me a rifle and put his in a rack and off we went. We pulled up to a stop light and I was looking at the rifle and I couldn't remember if Red meant that the safety was on, or off, so I pulled the trigger. The gun went off and went through the floor of the pickup and into the street below. We didn't end up going... [long drawn out pause] He took me home and we never talked about hunting again after that, I did offer to fix the truck though"
This guy didn't lie, it was against his values and morals. The amazing thing was that he wasn't ashamed, bashful, or anything, just straight faced like it was the most normal thing in the world. It took all of us a ton of willpower to just nod, and ride through the story. After he finished I think all I could say was: "Wow that's crazy man..." When he left the room the laughing / H@LY S@$% talk started.
Swear it's true and it's by far the dumbest firearm story I have heard in my entire life. And I grew up with a ton of dumb firearm stories from people I knew as a kid. Tried to get as close to actual language as possible, but it was back in 2003.
A friend who didnt own a gun yet, game me a "gun cleaning hat" complete with 3 fake bullet holes in it for my birthday one year. He didnt understand why I didnt lthink it was funny. A year later he buys two hand guns and shoots through his kitchen floor into the basement while cleaning one of them. He never did tell me about it but his wife did.
While on active duty, the Team I was on was constantly calling upon the SF guys to give us as much training as they could. This included range time, DM training, MOUT, etc.
On this particular day we were working transition drills to our secondary.
My Team is all on the line and the SF seargent has been putting a mag in and taking it out and dry firing all day. It crossed my mind that he might slip up but then, this guy's an E-8 in Special Forces, not going to happen...
So we're on the line facing downrange, and the SF dude is probably 5 feet in front of us showing us what he wants to see (he's in front with his right side to us/showing his transition to his secondary) when POP!
-----------Targets--------Targets------------Targets--------
SF-->
US /\ US /\ US /\ US /\
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
We all do a sloooow lean back as we just heard a round go screaming by our faces. My buddy to my left looks over at me and goes, "Whoops..." and smiles.
At the end of qual one day, the shooter said to me "I figured out why I was shooting to the left so much" me- "Ok, why is that?" him- " I realized that I was standing to the left of the target some"
At that point I just smiled and agreed, he was a slipknot anyhow.
While on active duty, the Team I was on was constantly calling upon the SF guys to give us as much training as they could. This included range time, DM training, MOUT, etc.
On this particular day we were working transition drills to our secondary.
My Team is all on the line and the SF seargent has been putting a mag in and taking it out and dry firing all day. It crossed my mind that he might slip up but then, this guy's an E-8 in Special Forces, not going to happen...
So we're on the line facing downrange, and the SF dude is probably 5 feet in front of us showing us what he wants to see (he's in front with his right side to us/showing his transition to his secondary) when POP!
-----------Targets--------Targets------------Targets--------
SF-->
US /\ US /\ US /\ US /\
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
We all do a sloooow lean back as we just heard a round go screaming by our faces. My buddy to my left looks over at me and goes, "Whoops..." and smiles.
Just goes to show you that the first step to having a ND is to believe you're immune to having one.
Smuckatelli
05-08-09, 08:23
We were doing a final graded event in Hawaii that we didn't complete at Pendleton before we floated across the Pacific to the Middle East. A 'new' old guy L/Cpl returned to the platoon before we left. He had missed the pre-deployment training because he was a member of the Regimental Football team but he managed to piss off the SgtMaj.
Everyone was pretty much standing around waiting for the evaluators to show up. Out of the blue the L/Cpl's M-249 lets off about 10 rounds of blank ammo at the guys standing in front of him.
I run over with a WTF is wrong with you attitude. The L/Cpl is looking at the weapon like as though something is wrong with it. I do a quick assessment thinking that it could have been some problem with the SAW that I had not seen yet, so now I'm calm.
With concern in my voice, I ask the L/Cpl if there was some kind of malfunction with the SAW. His answer:
No SSgt, I was just checking to see if it was on safe.:eek:
I blew a gasket with that answer. This was just the first of multiple blunders that he did while on deployment. Eventually he was regulated to ship's platoon, popped positive for steroids coming out of Panang and was busted and kicked out upon return to the States.
Mr.Goodtimes
05-08-09, 08:37
"now all you gotta do is add a green laser" -guy at the range last night.
":rolleyes: you need a rifle in a real caliber, get a DPMS .308." -same guy upon finding out my rifle was a 5.56.
Stupid (and very short) conversation with a guy at an old open range.
"Hey fella's, you mind if I shoot here with ya? (pshttt, sound of a beer opening)"
"Nope, the range is all yours." (we packed up and left).
Another time, years ago, at an indoor range, I was shooting a 92F and these two younger guys come in and start shooting wildly, as fast as they can and laughing. Luckily there was at least some concrete walls between us, but I decided to leave. As I was packing up, one of them comes over and asks "Hey, can we borrow your Beretta so we can shoot 'em 'Jon Woo' style?" (they had a 92F as well). I about shat myself.
I posted this in another thread, but it was dead. Since This thread is so enjoyable to read I thought I would bring it back and see if there are any new stories out there?
Here is my recent trip to a range in CT:
I went to a range near my fathers house the other day to introduce him and my sister's fiance to the AR platform. My father taught me to shoot, to hunt, to hike, to play pool, to be me, so I was really looking forward to showing him the AR (he's a hunter, owns now automatic weapons, only those firearms he deems necessary to live off the land).
The range we went to was public, and they let us shoot because we explained that he is an ex-pat and only in the states 2 months a year. The range officer was amazing!
Anyway I walk up to the range with one 30 rnd, and one 10 (I live in NY and I think a 10 rounder is good for teaching people). I notice when I walk up this guy sitting at a bench. From where I was I could tell he had a Troy rail system, with some form of vertical hand grip, standard collapsible stock, an Eotech with a an Aimpoint 3x magnifier, and 2, yes 2 Beta Mags. To his right is a group of two people shooting two ARs that I couldn't see, and to his left is a guy with a SIG .556 in a gun rest that he is simply showing off and swabbing the barrel. They all seem together.
So anyway I watch this guy shoot while the range master is talking to us. I watch him send rounds down range (small range), and I notice that the bullet impacts are striking a large 10" target set at 40ish yards that is about 20 degrees to his right and actually the far left target of the people next to him. By the time his rounds hit the 100 yard berm they have travelled through all of the other three lanes to his right. I was pretty dumb struck... Then he proceeds to let off a volley of poorly controlled rapid fire that leaves a nice 7 foot pattern at the end of the range. The officers were pretty pissed about this, but no one noticed his angle until later.
We sit down and shoot. My Dad is elated, his groups were tighter then he ever thought was possible given the round and barrel, my sister's fiance is an insane natural for only having shot two other times, and to tell you the truth I'm jealous... After my Dad's third round of 5 I hear the above guy's friends ask him what he's shooting at! He explains his target, and they tell him that they set that one up in their lane for their last set of shots. He shrugs.
We then move on to the .270 and do some shots. After my first group of three I place the rifle down and leave the bench. I notice this guy standing behind our booth and smirking at us, and in particular at my AR (MP 15 OR w/ BUIS zeroed at 50 yrds with no optic, I love this gun). I ignore him.
After one set of 270 we go back to the AR. After we left the range my Dad told me that this guy then proceeded to sweep his left hand lanes (of which I was on the line) while he was trying to wrestle the Beta Mag free from his gun. He actually put the weapon in his armpit and proceeded to pull down while pointing the gun towards fellow shooters. The range officer and him spoke for a while in a heated way, but since the session was close to over he stayed but didn't shoot again.
The last thing heard from this guy was him talking with the show off next to us who never fired a shot the entire hour about how he was upset that they wouldn't let him shoot his M203. The guy next to him asked what rounds he had and he said blue smoke only at this point...
SO WTF? This guy had every fancy toy in the book. Couldn't hit a group if it killed him. While our groups at 50 yrds were impressive with Irons (mine was the worst honestly and I am pretty ashamed of that), he was shooting the wrong target at 40 with a 3x magnifier? He sweeped us with a beta mag, A million toys, a hot gun, and obviously enough money to afford it all, and yet to tell you the truth he fit my picture of someone that shouldn't own an AR (or any gun) more then anyone I have ever met. He obviously has experience in the platform, and shooting, but what the hell?
What do you guys think of people like this?
Heavy Metal
06-27-09, 15:26
How about this,
We recently had the opportunity to observe just what a specific round/bullet will penetrate and how much.
Most heard comment..."it would've went thru more, but it did not have time to build up velocity". Apparently there is some new RAP(rocket assisted projectile) round I am unaware of.
This dovetails with some experience back in the service..
An Army manual indicated that the 5.56 will penetrate more sandbags at 100mtrs then 25(not sure on the exact distances, if anyone know's the manual and distances, I'd appreciate the refresher). When I ask my squad "why?" I got a vague reference to "the grain" and, yep, it builds up more velocity!
When you try and explain that the bullet is going as fast as it will ever go the exact moment it leaves the barrel, it will only slow down, they look at you like a dog lookin at a ceiling fan.
Bob
Ask them if a spitball goes faster after it leaves the straw.
"He's got her gripping the gun all wrong."
Guy in Lane #3 at the NRA Range today.
My wife and I were in #4.
A couple of weeks ago I was at the range sighting in my M1A SOCOM that I have in a Troy MCS. One of the old time members of our club comes up and watches me for a few minutes and finally asks me what I'm shooting. I tell him it's an M1A. He responds, that's not an M1, I know what they look like and that's not it. I politely tell him that it is an M1A but it is in an aftermarket stock. He then starts talking about it not being an M1A and how the M1A is based off of the M14 and how he has one and what I'm shooting is not an M1A. At this point, one of his friends (who is probably in his early fifties) got smart and walked up to him and said, "that's the new version of the M1A" and the old timer just went "oh, ok." After that all was good and he even helped me get the gun sighted in.
matthewdanger
07-04-09, 10:43
"He's got her gripping the gun all wrong."
Guy in Lane #3 at the NRA Range today.
My wife and I were in #4.
This would have been the perfect opportunity to play the old "Do you know who I am!?!?" card. ;)
"one shot every 5 seconds"
I can't believe people really walk up to complete strangers on the range and start telling them what's what. Especially telling people what they should have bought instead of the gun they are shooting. I have never experienced that and it blows my mind that people do it. I have heard people making comments about others but not directly to them and no one has ever approached me to tell me I was shooting the wrong way or the wrong gun.
Unbelievable.
I can't believe people really walk up to complete strangers on the range and start telling them what's what. Especially telling people what they should have bought instead of the gun they are shooting. I have never experienced that and it blows my mind that people do it. I have heard people making comments about others but not directly to them and no one has ever approached me to tell me I was shooting the wrong way or the wrong gun.
Unbelievable.
I haven't had that happen to me either, but I belong to two private ranges and almost never go to public ranges.
People are usually pretty cool. They come by to see what you're shooting, and vice-versa. No matter what anyone has, even a Hi Point, I've never heard anyone put down someone else's choice of gear.
Now, the big problem for me is the Fudds who show up once a year to sight in a shotgun for deer season. For some reason they can never remember the proper procedure for calling the line cold or hot...
So, how WAS she gripping the gun?
So, how WAS she gripping the gun?
Properly.
FromMyColdDeadHand
07-04-09, 16:47
So, how WAS she gripping the gun?
Properly.
I think Left Sig was trolling for a picture of your wife.
I think Left Sig was trolling for a picture of your wife.
No problem ...
http://greent.com/sedona05/images/BellRock-kimuphigh.jpg
No, just curious what the other guy perceived as wrong, and what his grip was like.
I've seen more than a few support-hand-index-finger-on-the-front-of-the-trigger-guard guys and every time I just shake my head...
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